Shiloh Pitt & very young children with gender identity issues

[Scarlett]

It's definitely a different choice of clothing, but it's just clothes and I can't see the harm in a suit. She's not exactly the first girl to wear a suit.

It isn't just clothes. It is making a statement .

[Mergath]

This is true. I do not know Angelina or Brad. I only know their bizarre public personalities. I do wonder who bought the suit and who fitted it to the girl and who cut her hair like a boys....but hey I guess maybe she is running her own life completely at age 8.

 

I let my dd get a boy's haircut at age five because that's what she wanted.  And she picks out the occasional piece of boy's clothing.  Again, because she wants it.  Her boots this year are boy's boots.  A child doesn't have to be "running her own life completely" to pick her own clothes and haircut.  I think it's a far more unhealthy family dynamic if an elementary age child isn't allowed to choose how she dresses and styles her hair.  

[albeto.]

I think they embrace the social repercussions.

 

I don't understand. 

[Mergath]

And I think it would be very weird to let an 8 yo girl dress in a suit. But hey I could be in the minority.

 

Why?  All her brothers were wearing suits.  She presumably wanted to wear the same thing.  I don't see why it's so weird to respect her wishes.  

 

For most parents, gender-appropriate clothing is not our hill to die on.  

[Scarlett]

I let my dd get a boy's haircut at age five because that's what she wanted. And she picks out the occasional piece of boy's clothing. Again, because she wants it. Her boots this year are boy's boots. A child doesn't have to be "running her own life completely" to pick her own clothes and haircut. I think it's a far more unhealthy family dynamic if an elementary age child isn't allowed to choose how she dresses and styles her hair.

To a point I suppose.

[Scarlett]

I don't understand.

They like being the oddballs.

[Scarlett]

Why? All her brothers were wearing suits. She presumably wanted to wear the same thing. I don't see why it's so weird to respect her wishes.

 

For most parents, gender-appropriate clothing is not our hill to die on.

You and I must know very different 8 year old girls.

[Mergath]

I think they embrace the social repercussions.

 

Only when it brings attention to the causes they're passionate about.  I wish more people did that.  Luckily for them, Brad and Angelina are in a position to bring a LOT of attention, and they've done an immense amount of good with their fame.  I'd rather see a million Brad and Angelinas rather than one more damn Kardashian doing absolutely nothing with their fame except making more money. 

[Mergath]

You and I must know very different 8 year old girls.

 

It would seem so.

[Dory]

You and I must know very different 8 year old girls.

 

I wore very very similar clothing as my older brothers at that age. I hated dresses and skirts and frilly things. I wore them only because my mom was one of those people that was willing to fight me over what style of clothes I wanted or didn't want.

[Scarlett]

Only when it brings attention to the causes they're passionate about. I wish more people did that. Luckily for them, Brad and Angelina are in a position to bring a LOT of attention, and they've done an immense amount of good with their fame. I'd rather see a million Brad and Angelinas rather than one more damn Kardashian doing absolutely nothing with their fame except making more money.

Exactly. It is something THEY are passionate about and surprise surprise one of their kids fits the bill.

[Amy in NH]

Exactly. It is something THEY are passionate about and surprise surprise one of their kids fits the bill.

 

I think you have it backward.  They are passionate about it because it is important to one of their children.

 

[Mergath]

Exactly. It is something THEY are passionate about and surprise surprise one of their kids fits the bill.

 

So every family who is supportive of the lgbtq community who has a non-conforming child forced them to be that way for their own sinister ends?  :001_rolleyes:  That's a little paranoid.  I could just as easily say, "Oh my gosh!  You're straight!  And your kids are straight!  You FORCED them to further your straight agenda, didn't you!!!  MONSTER!!!"

[idnib]

This is true. I do not know Angelina or Brad. I only know their bizarre public personalities. I do wonder who bought the suit and who fitted it to the girl and who cut her hair like a boys....but hey I guess maybe she is running her own life completely at age 8.

 

.

[idnib]

Exactly. It is something THEY are passionate about and surprise surprise one of their kids fits the bill.

 

.

[Catwoman]

For most parents, gender-appropriate clothing is not our hill to die on.

I see lots of kids every day and it is very rare to see any of them wearing obviously opposite-gender clothing, so while it may not be a hill to die on for most parents, I think dressing their boys as boys and their girls as girls is something they do automatically. There aren't exactly droves of parents roaming the little girls' departments buying dresses for their sons.

[Mergath]

I see lots of kids every day and it is very rare to see any of them wearing obviously opposite-gender clothing, so while it may not be a hill to die on for most parents, I think dressing their boys as boys and their girls as girls is something they do automatically. There aren't exactly droves of parents roaming the little girls' departments buying dresses for their sons.

 

It's not common, but most parents that I know wouldn't make a big deal out of it.  Raising kids nowadays, most people have bigger concerns than making sure their kid's clothing choice conforms to their genitalia.

[Laura Corin]

It's not common, but most parents that I know wouldn't make a big deal out of it.  Raising kids nowadays, most people have bigger concerns than making sure their kid's clothing choice conforms to their genitalia.

 

I wonder how very 'twisted' my (and many other children's of my generation and class) upbringings were, when their parents dressed them in the 'wrong' gender's clothes because those were the clothes they had?  I have two older brothers, and spent most of my childhood in boys' clothes.  

 

For that matter, many of Calvin's clothes when he was small were designed for girls - Husband was out of work and we received generous clothes donations from my brother, who has girls.

[Dmmetler]

I see lots of kids every day and it is very rare to see any of them wearing obviously opposite-gender clothing, so while it may not be a hill to die on for most parents, I think dressing their boys as boys and their girls as girls is something they do automatically. There aren't exactly droves of parents roaming the little girls' departments buying dresses for their sons.

No, but I know quite a few moms who buy t-shirts from the boys section for their little girls becsuse their little girl wants dinosaurs, Batman, minecraft creepers, etc. My DD's daily wear mostly has reptiles on it or came from math contests. The only pink t-shirt she wears regularly was custom made for her (and has her pet corn snake on it).

 

That's not seen as "gender bending"-it's seen as a kid who likes snakes or batman.

[Scarlett]

So every family who is supportive of the lgbtq community who has a non-conforming child forced them to be that way for their own sinister ends? :001_rolleyes: That's a little paranoid. I could just as easily say, "Oh my gosh! You're straight! And your kids are straight! You FORCED them to further your straight agenda, didn't you!!! MONSTER!!!"

I didn't say everyone. I was specifically talking about this couple. They like to stir the pot and they like being in the limelight. They like causes. Or at least that is the impression I get.

[Haiku]

Sometimes when people grow up they decide they want to be a boy instead of a girl, or a girl instead of a boy, but that's not really something you should not decide until you grow up.  If when you're all grown up you still want to be a boy we'll talk about that then."

 

With this response, you are asking a child to spend their childhood in extreme discomfort. Children have committed suicide after being prohibited from expressing their gender identity. And people who are transgender do not "decide they want to be a boy instead of a girl" anymore than people who are not transgender "decide" they are fine with being a girl. 

[Jenny in Florida]

Yes, she was mostly joking.  But I still don't see the harm in thinking about these things.  Most kids don't turn out to be gay or autistic or have an odd number of chromosomes, but those are all things my husband and I have contemplated.  As someone fascinated by psychology, and as my sister being a therapist for "out of the norm" families, it seems perfectly normal to think about such things.

 

The social groups in which I have spent most of my time as an adult have included a fair percentage of LGBTQ people. So, I'm perhaps more aware than some others of the challenges some of those folks face being constantly confronted with societal norms that don't work for them. I made a conscious choice when my kids were little not to use nouns and pronouns that conveyed any assumptions about their future love interests and partners. In other words, I tried not to sound like I assumed my daughter would marry a man or that my son would marry a woman. It wasn't like I sat either of them down and encouraged them to consider being gay (which I know is ridiculous), but I never wanted either of my kids to spend one second worrying about whether he or she would still be loved and accepted or whether I would be in any way disappointed or upset if he or she came out.

 

So, yeah, it strikes me as perfectly normal to consider those kinds of issues.

 

(For the record, one of my kids identifies as bisexual but has thus far dated only people of the opposite gender. The other identifies as straight. The one who identifies as bisexual has commented appreciatively on the way I handled this issue. The one who identifies as straight never seemed to notice. Mission accomplished.)

[Runningmom80]

My DD says she wishes she was a boy all the time, because she wants bunkbeds like her brothers.  (I do explain that girls can have bunkbeds!) She wants short hair and to only wear pants.  I don't think she has gender identity issues, she just recognizes that pants are better for playing and short hair gets less tangled. So I can see why Shiloh would want to dress "like a boy," since she has two older brothers.  Without knowing her, I shouldn't comment on the transgender/ gender nonconformity issue, but I think 8 is still young, and it doesn't necessarily mean that she's gender non conforming.  If she is, it seems that her parents will be supportive, which is wonderful.

 

I think each situation is different, but in general my answer is the first one.  I let my kids wear what they want. 

[Mergath]

I didn't say everyone. I was specifically talking about this couple. They like to stir the pot and they like being in the limelight. They like causes. Or at least that is the impression I get.

 

Oh, come on.  There's no way you can know that from a few photo ops.  I'd hesitate to make that assumption about a family I know in real life, never mind one of which I've only ever seen paparazzi photos.

[Χά�ων]

The social groups in which I have spent most of my time as an adult have included a fair percentage of LGBTQ people. So, I'm perhaps more aware than some others of the challenges some of those folks face being constantly confronted with societal norms that don't work for them. I made a conscious choice when my kids were little not to use nouns and pronouns that conveyed any assumptions about their future love interests and partners. In other words, I tried not to sound like I assumed my daughter would marry a man or that my son would marry a woman. It wasn't like I sat either of them down and encouraged them to consider being gay (which I know is ridiculous), but I never wanted either of my kids to spend one second worrying about whether he or she would still be loved and accepted or whether I would be in any way disappointed or upset if he or she came out.

 

So, yeah, it strikes me as perfectly normal to consider those kinds of issues.

 

(For the record, one of my kids identifies as bisexual but has thus far dated only people of the opposite gender. The other identifies as straight. The one who identifies as bisexual has commented appreciatively on the way I handled this issue. The one who identifies as straight never seemed to notice. Mission accomplished.)

My son is still too young to date. But when I talk about his future as a married adult I talk about his spouse, vs wife. I have made it a point not to assume one way or other, nice to know I am not alone.

 

He has not said one way or the other. He does know he wants to get married and have a lot of children.

[Scarlett]

Oh, come on. There's no way you can know that from a few photo ops. I'd hesitate to make that assumption about a family I know in real life, never mind one of which I've only ever seen paparazzi photos.

I am not basing it on a few photos. They have both been in the media spotlight for many many years and especially Angelina...the more outrageous the better it seems. Jmo. Ymmv.

[Runningmom80]

I am not basing it on a few photos. They have both been in the media spotlight for many many years and especially Angelina...the more outrageous the better it seems. Jmo. Ymmv.

 

She used to be really wacky, but not in recent years.  Actually since Brad I havent seen anything that weird.  (And this is coming from someone who is solidly team Jen. ;))

[LibraryLover]

I know very little about this family, so I did an images search. When this child was young, she was dressed very much as a 'traditional' little girl, complete with flowing locks and party dresses. This transformation took place over time, as the child became verbal and aware. I don't believe these parents are staging anything. This child dresses herself, and looks completely comfortable in 'boy' clothing. If that 8 yr old wanted to wear glittery princess dresses to red carpet events, that's what we would see . The child doesn't want to. No parent could force clothing while having said child looking that comfortable and secure.

 

I don't know what terrible things this couple has done in the past to incite such anger, but respecting a child's hair, clothing and name choices in the way they have isn't terrible. I think it's admirable.

[TranquilMind]

 

 

If you are a lesbian throughout college, I am all for that. I don't think of it as "fake" lesbian. I think that's what your sexuality is for that time period. It changes. It can also save on birth control costs.

I laughed out loud.

 

I'm as practical as they come, but you win.....

 

;)

[SparklyUnicorn]

My point is that you can also say the opposite.  Not every parent offering conventional stability is serving their child's well being and health, and not every parent who is flexible wtr to gender identity is offering an unstable or unhealthy environment as some recent posts have suggested.

 

 

Well so are you saying that parents can't ever really get it right?  They will screw their kid up no matter what?

I know that is not what you are saying, but ya gotta admit it seems like we can't possibly get things right according to some people (not you specifically). 

 

I'm definitely not as go with the flow as I'd like to be, but I'm also a product of my upbringing and I think I'm as open minded as I can be under the circumstances of having a parent who was not open minded at all. 

[unsinkable]

I laughed out loud.

 

I'm as practical as they come, but you win.....

 

;)

Not having sex (the kind that could lead to pregnancy) saves on birth control costs, too. ;)

 

And regarding assumptions about our kids' adult lives...why assume they'll end up with a spouse or SO of either gender? There's a chance they won't. And all THOSE messages (the assumption they'll have a spouse someday) they got in childhood could be damaging, too.

[Dory]

Well so are you saying that parents can't ever really get it right?  They will screw their kid up no matter what?

I know that is not what you are saying, but ya gotta admit it seems like we can't possibly get things right according to some people (not you specifically). 

 

I'm definitely not as go with the flow as I'd like to be, but I'm also a product of my upbringing and I think I'm as open minded as I can be under the circumstances of having a parent who was not open minded at all. 

 

Well really, every parent probably will screw their kids up a little. I mean it's not like any of us is getting it all perfect anyway. a person can swing too far to one end of the spectrum or another. Our own instabilities might mean that we take something that normally is healthy and good, and push it too far. Life is a balancing act and humankind is definitely not good at being balanced.

[texasmama]

As others have mentioned, dealing with this issue with a three year old versus an eight year old are two completely different situations.

 

From what I see and read about how Shiloh's situation is being handled, it seems very caring and sensible.  No announcements were made until the child had expressed her preference to be called John for several years.  The clothing has been noted for quite some time, in addition to the short haircut.  We can never know what is said and done behind closed doors, but I cannot find anything to criticize about the snippets I've read regarding this issue.

 

I have no idea what I would do in their shoes, partially because I am not living in a vacuum with my child.  I am in a marriage, a community, a family, etc.  All of the variables would need to be taken into consideration, in addition to the fact that I am one of a two parent household.  But I cannot criticize their handling of the situation, and they seem to be loving parents to me.  I think they are both a bit quirky, but they do seem to have their kids' best interests at heart.

 

 

[TranquilMind]

Not having sex (the kind that could lead to pregnancy) saves on birth control costs, too. ;)

 

And regarding assumptions about our kids' adult lives...why assume they'll end up with a spouse or SO of either gender? There's a chance they won't. And all THOSE messages (the assumption they'll have a spouse someday) they got in childhood could be damaging, too.

Why assume my kids will have spouses?  Because almost everyone does!  So the assumption is reasonable.  Mine are kind of geeky and quirky though, so it won't be right away.  They want to travel a lot first.

Besides, I want grandkids, and that's the only way to get them. 

 

So yes, I'm assuming they will get married, and they will have children. 

[TranquilMind]

It's interesting to me that this child is not one of the adopted children.  I say this because Angelina Jolie has had a troubled past with mental health issues and drug abuse.  My first thought is that the child may also have some mental health issues.  Preferring not to be a girly-girl isn't a mental illness, of course!, but I wonder if there's a genetic tendency to mental illness in this child, too.  

 

As a mother, I would not force a girl to wear dresses or have long hair if this isn't comfortable for her.  But I would not honor a name change in a child.  My dd uses a shortened form of her given name, not a boy's name.  

 

In this particular family, I'm sure there's been confusion.   If you have children who were supposedly begging their parents to get married, then it's quite likely that the parents are ambiguous on a variety of other things and are unable or unwilling to provide structure that young children crave.   I believe that parents are supposed to guide their children,  not reinforce their confusion.   

Some of us are old enough to remember the Billy Bob Thornton years.  Seriously whacked times there.  Remember the blood in the little vial she wore around her neck?   She seems good now, with Brad - just speaking as an observer who has seen interviews and such, of course. 

 

And yes, I agree with you. We should be the guiding forces, not following their confusion. 

[TranquilMind]

Well really, every parent probably will screw their kids up a little. I mean it's not like any of us is getting it all perfect anyway. a person can swing too far to one end of the spectrum or another. Our own instabilities might mean that we take something that normally is healthy and good, and push it too far. Life is a balancing act and humankind is definitely not good at being balanced.

True.  No matter WHAT you are, your kids will swing the other way, at least for awhile, saying that you were too (fill in the blank, whether boring, stable, and conservative, or hippy-dippy, and overly liberal). 

 

Then they will swing back closer to center.

 

I watched a documentary on the 60's the other day, and it was eminently comforting.  These whacked out kids, then high on LSD in Haight-Asbury, are now doctors and attorneys and CEOs, and plumbers.  The youthful phase of "Never trust anyone over 30" did pass. 

Anyway, I digress. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

Growing up my mother forced me to wear dresses.  She bought lots of pink.  She made me wear my hair long . I didn't like any of these things . I don't feel ruined by it though.  I don't force my kids to do anything beyond be clean when in public. 

 

I will say I hoped to have 2 kids.  Either 2 boys or 2 girls, but not one of each (although not saying I would have sent them back).  I never wanted to have to say something like "girls do this" or "boys do that".  Never never ever wanted to have to even worry about comparisons like that. 

[Jenny in Florida]

And regarding assumptions about our kids' adult lives...why assume they'll end up with a spouse or SO of either gender? There's a chance they won't. And all THOSE messages (the assumption they'll have a spouse someday) they got in childhood could be damaging, too.

 

Well, I tried to phrase all of that as "if," too. 

[unsinkable]

Why assume my kids will have spouses? Because almost everyone does! So the assumption is reasonable. Mine are kind of geeky and quirky though, so it won't be right away. They want to travel a lot first.

Besides, I want grandkids, and that's the only way to get them.

 

So yes, I'm assuming they will get married, and they will have children.

I wasn't directly addressing you about the spouses part. Other people had mentioned it.

 

But I think I read that like 20-25% or so adults have never married and don't intend to. For me, I try to not make the assumption.

[TranquilMind]

I wasn't directly addressing you about the spouses part. Other people had mentioned it.

 

But I think I read that like 20-25% or so adults have never married and don't intend to. For me, I try to not make the assumption.

Mine had better marry and not just shack up with somebody.

I would be sad if they were alone and never found love.  But most people do, so I'm sticking with that assumption. 

[Jenny in Florida]

Besides, I want grandkids, and that's the only way to get them. 

 

I know a fair number of single people of both genders who have adopted kids.

 

I used to (jokingly, I promise!) tell my daughter I didn't care whether she had biological children, adopted kids or bought them on the black market, as long as I got my grandchildren.

[TranquilMind]

I know a fair number of single people of both genders who have adopted kids.

 

I used to (jokingly, I promise!) tell my daughter I didn't care whether she had biological children, adopted kids or bought them on the black market, as long as I got my grandchildren.

Ha ha. 

[*Lulu*]

I wasn't directly addressing you about the spouses part. Other people had mentioned it.

 

But I think I read that like 20-25% or so adults have never married and don't intend to. For me, I try to not make the assumption.

I think that the societal message of "you need someone to complete you" is so loud that our children NEED to hear from us that whatever direction thier paths in life take they are loved and life can be beautiful and fulfilling.

[TranquilMind]

I think that the societal message of "you need someone to complete you" is so loud that our children NEED to hear from us that whatever direction thier paths in life take they are loved and life can be beautiful and fulfilling.

That bit about needing someone to "complete" you is not really the message at all. 

 

It's simply preferable to have someone by your side, especially after your parents are gone.  It makes life easier to know that person is there to drive you home from surgery, and spend recovery time with you, and be there for you when you need someone.  Who does not want that? 

[Haiku]

I think that the societal message of "you need someone to complete you" is so loud that our children NEED to hear from us that whatever direction thier paths in life take they are loved and life can be beautiful and fulfilling.

 

Why is that message so loud? Because it's how human beings have evolved. We want to partner up. It's in our DNA. Of course there are people who don't wish to. They are outliers, though. The majority of humans partner up. There's nothing wrong with kids getting that message. They are free to choose differently, if they want to.

[Runningmom80]

The older I get, the less I think anyone is able to change anyone else. I think I'm here to help my children be the best they can be, but I should only want to work with what is already there, or else the attempt is detrimental rather than helpful.

I am with you! I've been learning this lesson myself, and not even regarding my kids. (Although I learned it real quick when my older DS was younger.)

[LucyStoner]

It isn't just clothes. It is making a statement .

When I was about 8 or 9 I put my foot down to the big Easter dress thing. I insisted I go to church in pants and a sweater. It wasn't a statement of anything but that I was done with poofy dresses. This child is old enough to decide what to wear, within the bounds of decency.

 

ETA- I do wear dresses now. I have two outfits appropriate to formal events. One is a basic black dress and the other is what I call a girl tux. It's tailored for a lady but it's a suit. Women wear pants suits now. It's 2014, heck it will be 2015 in about 5 minutes. Is this a statement? No, it's a suit.

[TranquilMind]

To what extent do you think that is possible? 

 

I am not sure what you mean by "confusion", but I am sincerely interested in people's thoughts on this. Should parents try to guide their children to conform to societal standards, even when that hurts the child? Can they change their children's most basic characteristics?

 

The older I get, the less I think anyone is able to change anyone else. I think I'm here to help my children be the best they can be, but I should only want to work with what is already there, or else the attempt is detrimental rather than helpful.  

It depends, of course, on what "societal standards" you are referring to (junk food as a staple?  male-female dominated careers? marriage and family?  charitable work or contributions?), as well as whether one believes that whatever behavior/habit we are discussing is indeed an innate characteristic or not, doesn't it?  Assuming gets us nowhere, as we can't even begin a profitable discussion with opposing assumptions. 

 

I want to work with whatever God created my child to be, and help him/her fulfill this calling on his/her life.    We have done that in allowing them and assisting them to pursue their various interests and academic passions. 

[Jenny in Florida]

Why is that message so loud? Because it's how human beings have evolved. We want to partner up. It's in our DNA. Of course there are people who don't wish to. They are outliers, though. The majority of humans partner up. There's nothing wrong with kids getting that message. They are free to choose differently, if they want to.

 

I think some of us are concerned that our kids not hear "We expect your life to take a particular path, and if it doesn't you will disappoint us." 

 

Of course I hope that my children will find loving, compatible spouses. However, I'm realistic enough to know that doing so isn't easy. If it were, the divorce rate wouldn't be nearly as high as it is. So, while I wish that for them, it is for their own happiness, not mine. I want to make sure my kids know the choices are their own and that they never need to get married because it is expected of them.

[unsinkable]

Why is that message so loud? Because it's how human beings have evolved. We want to partner up. It's in our DNA. Of course there are people who don't wish to. They are outliers, though. The majority of humans partner up. There's nothing wrong with kids getting that message. They are free to choose differently, if they want to.

What if they don't meet someone to partner up with?

 

Surely I can't be the only one who knows single adults who never met "the one" and really wanted to?!