Shiloh Pitt & very young children with gender identity issues

[SparklyUnicorn]

I'm confused, did you let him take lessons? My son takes ballet  in pants... he's 4.

 

He took lessons for 4 years.  On the first day of class he asked where his tutu was.  He wanted to know why he does not get one, but the girls do.  I thought it was quite cool that he wanted to take lessons.  I was sad when he wasn't interested anymore.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Oh and the boys wore tights, not pants.

 

 

[Catwoman]

Just an amusing (imo) side note, my sister is pregnant and annoyed that people keep asking if she knows/will know the sex. She wants them to ask about the gender so she can say "I won't know the gender until they tell me what gender they identify with." (She's a therapist, lol.)

I think that is going a little too far and I really hope she was joking.

 

The vast majority of boys identify as being boys and the vast majority of girls identify with being girls, so I don't think there is any need to look for issues before a child has even been born. It's a different thing when you have a child who has authentic gender issues and who genuinely feels trapped inside the wrong body, but to assume that you need to treat every single child as though he or she may want to be the opposite sex seems ridiculous to me, because most kids turn out to be the sex that matches their original body parts.

[LucyStoner]

I'm willing to bet, dollars to doughnuts, that the therapist waiting to be asked about gender is joking. I think I made similar jokes when pregnant with my sons. It was throughly a joke.

[unsinkable]

I'm willing to bet, dollars to doughnuts, that the therapist waiting to be asked about gender is joking. I think I made similar jokes when pregnant with my sons. It was throughly a joke.

Yeah, that bet might have meant something when a doughnut cost 15 cents. In some places, doughnuts cost more than a dollar.

 

:D

[LucyStoner]

Yeah, that bet might have meant something when a doughnut cost 15 cents. In some places, doughnuts cost more than a dollar.

 

:D

Only cheap doughnuts.

[Tsuga]

I think there is a big difference between tomboy and transgender.    Many many many many girls play 'like boys'.  Very few want a boy name and a boy haircut to go with it-  especially kids with supportive parents and unlimited resources.

 

I was a tomboy. Never wanted to actually be a boy physically, but I wanted to live a boy's life.

 

I agree, there is a huge difference there.

 

I know a lot of people who went through all kinds of phases as children.

 

I think the evolution of our gender and even sex is more fluid than we'd like to believe.

 

I don't feel male but I definitely identified with the women in the film below film to some extent--I think that our society's modern attitudes towards women makes it more possible for women to just be whoever they want, an engineer in blue jeans, no kids, that is an acceptable "female" choice. Now it's not as "acceptable" for for males to do art therapy for pre-schoolers but I say why the heck not? ETA my point with this is, I'm female in sex and gender but a large part of that is a very open definition of female gendered persons in modern North America and I'm really happy about that.

 

If I had to choose, if it were more prescribed, I don't know what I'd do.

 

http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/two-spirits/film.html

 

(Watch all the clips--there are some really interesting traditions there.)

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_gender

 

On the one hand, I support people who want to change their bodies to "match" their selves on the inside.

 

On the other hand it makes me profoundly sad that there is not a place for every person without surgery or medication. I am not sad that someone exists male in a female body, or that they want to change their body given who they are and what our society is like now. I just wish there was a place for everyone as they are, that there was a "legitimate" male gender, female sex, not "crossing" (what line?), "this is just myself" option for everyone.

 

I don't believe in curing who people are. I believe in alleviating pain, not alleviating difference.

 

In that respect my kids can be whoever they want. I hope our house is a place where it doesn't matter what gender or sex you are and you don't have to fit into one or the other or stay the same your whole life.

 

If you are a lesbian throughout college, I am all for that. I don't think of it as "fake" lesbian. I think that's what your sexuality is for that time period. It changes. It can also save on birth control costs.

[6packofun]

I think kids have it tough nowadays.  Parents are OK (and should be) with boys playing with dolls, being a princess or just plain gentle and sensitive or girls wanting to be scientists who build with (non-pink/purple) Legos, etc. but then they DRIVE the narrative about gender identity so that their little girl who dresses in a suit to pretend she's going to go to work like Dad and wants to be called Mr. MUST be a male.  Really?  So much for being able to be a strong WOMAN. 

 

I realize that there are many more factors for some children beyond what toys they play with, but they get mixed messages about what it is OK to be in a really screwed up way by parents who are so oversensitive to the gender identity thing.  Not all, of COURSE.  But when a kid is hearing in the home, "It's really OK if you decide to be a boy!  You may not have been assigned/designed to be a girl after all!" when they just want to play, for crying out loud, it's putting that pressure to KNOW in their little minds.  It's NOT about "just being yourself" because many parents are deciding FOR their children in the language they use and the subtle pressures they put on them to make this the ultimate, urgent aspect of their being.  And at 3 and even 8?  It is not.  This is nature vs. nurture gone awry with parents nurturing this questioning way beyond what's necessary.  I wonder how many children experiment in order to just give their parents an answer about it since it seems SO important for the *parents* to know.  And making it clear that it's perfectly OK to switch genders at an early age is pushing the subject.

 

(In what is obviously not a 1:1 analogy, this reminds me of parents who start telling their kids about porn at age 7 or 8 (either explaining what it is and/or trying to get the kid to avoid it at all costs.).  Gee, do we think those kids are going to put THAT out of their minds?  Introducing curiosity and urgency about things like this too early under the guise of providing open communication and being proactive is very misguided, IMO.  But look at all the pats on the back for being such great, accepting parents about it.) 

[Tsuga]

 

then they DRIVE the narrative about gender identity so that their little girl who dresses in a suit to pretend she's going to go to work like Dad and wants to be called Mr. MUST be a male.

 

I live in an extremely gender-fluid, gay-trans-queer friendly area and I have never seen that happen. Not one single time.

 

Society already has a gender narrative. Parents try to help their children navigate it.

[Joanne]

I think kids have it tough nowadays. Parents are OK (and should be) with boys playing with dolls, being a princess or just plain gentle and sensitive or girls wanting to be scientists who build with (non-pink/purple) Legos, etc. but then they DRIVE the narrative about gender identity so that their little girl who dresses in a suit to pretend she's going to go to work like Dad and wants to be called Mr. MUST be a male. Really? So much for being able to be a strong WOMAN.

 

I realize that there are many more factors for some children beyond what toys they play with, but they get mixed messages about what it is OK to be in a really screwed up way by parents who are so oversensitive to the gender identity thing. Not all, of COURSE. But when a kid is hearing in the home, "It's really OK if you decide to be a boy! You may not have been assigned/designed to be a girl after all!" when they just want to play, for crying out loud, it's putting that pressure to KNOW in their little minds. It's NOT about "just being yourself" because many parents are deciding FOR their children in the language they use and the subtle pressures they put on them to make this the ultimate, urgent aspect of their being. And at 3 and even 8? It is not. This is nature vs. nurture gone awry with parents nurturing this questioning way beyond what's necessary. I wonder how many children experiment in order to just give their parents an answer about it since it seems SO important for the *parents* to know. And making it clear that it's perfectly OK to switch genders at an early age is pushing the subject.

 

 

The culture and narrative regarding gender in the US is still very scripted and limited. What you posted "against" simply does not exist not happen in significant numbers at all. Very few parents do what you are concerned about.

 

Many parents allow a range of play and role exploration, many more than it used to be. Of those parents, very few DRIVE trans or gender dys issues. That is almost and absurd assertion and assumption.

[Carrie12345]

I think that is going a little too far and I really hope she was joking.

 

The vast majority of boys identify as being boys and the vast majority of girls identify with being girls, so I don't think there is any need to look for issues before a child has even been born. It's a different thing when you have a child who has authentic gender issues and who genuinely feels trapped inside the wrong body, but to assume that you need to treat every single child as though he or she may want to be the opposite sex seems ridiculous to me, because most kids turn out to be the sex that matches their original body parts.

 

 

I'm willing to bet, dollars to doughnuts, that the therapist waiting to be asked about gender is joking. I think I made similar jokes when pregnant with my sons. It was throughly a joke.

 

Yes, she was mostly joking.  But I still don't see the harm in thinking about these things.  Most kids don't turn out to be gay or autistic or have an odd number of chromosomes, but those are all things my husband and I have contemplated.  As someone fascinated by psychology, and as my sister being a therapist for "out of the norm" families, it seems perfectly normal to think about such things.

[SKL]

It would really depend on the specific behavior and words exchanged between the child and parents.  Many kids will say "I wish I was a __" and that does not automatically mean everyone has to act accordingly.  My first reaction would probably be "I sometimes felt that way when I was a little girl, because it seemed that boys got to do a lot of fun things that girls couldn't do.  But as I got older my feelings changed.  Now I'm glad I'm a woman."  I think it would be irresponsible to go around telling everyone my girl needs to be treated as a boy because of some comment or two made while she was a preschooler.  That would make it harder for her if, as is most likely, she eventually decided that she is in fact a girl and wants to be viewed the same as every other girl.

 

However, if the child was really adamant about it and very consistent over time about it, then that would be different.

 

I had heard about Shiloh's preference to wear boy clothes years ago.  It seems to me that she appears very comfortable in boys' clothes.  (Don't recall seeing her in girls' clothes.)  I'm sure there's more to the story, but I don't feel like it's necessarily my business to know about it or to have an opinion about it.

[Scarlett]

I think Angelina and Brad love to rock the boat in all things. Not surprised one bit by this story.

[albeto.]

 That is almost and absurd assertion and assumption.

 

It would be interesting to know from what source that poster got this misinformation. The source clearly banks on its audience's reliance on emotional cues rather than objective information. It's quite well done for villainizing progressive ideals, and creating a fear of tolerance. I have a prediction, but I wonder.

[BlsdMama]

I think it borders on child abuse to confuse a three year old. A three year old is a three year old.

[Joanne]

I think it borders on child abuse to confuse a three year old. A three year old is a three year old.

?? Who is confusing a 3 year old?

[Scarlett]

I think it borders on child abuse to confuse a three year old. A three year old is a three year old.

Yes. My ds was crawling around on all fours and barking like a puppy at that age.

[Scarlett]

?? Who is confusing a 3 year old?

Probably Angilina Jolie and Brad Pitt. They aren't the most normal/ stable/ conventional among us.

[Joanne]

Probably Angilina Jolie and Brad Pitt. They aren't the most normal/ stable/ conventional among us.

?

 

I don't equate conventional with stable. I am not understanding how we are going from a discussion inspired by their child exploring gender identity with them being abusive.

[Scarlett]

?

 

I don't equate conventional with stable. I am not understanding how we are going from a discussion inspired by their child exploring gender identity with them being abusive.

 

Abusive? Meh. Maybe maybe not. They are quakes IMO. In some ways those kids hits the lottery...in other ways they will be impaired.

[Dory]

Probably Angilina Jolie and Brad Pitt. They aren't the most normal/ stable/ conventional among us.

 

That's a little bit of a leap there. They don't seem very conventional, but that doesn't mean they aren't stable enough to raise their children just fine. Nor does that mean they are confusing their child.

 

That's a harsh accusation to make towards someone when all we know about them is what the media chooses to feed us. I would never make that assumption about any other family just because they are unconventional.

[Scarlett]

?

 

I don't equate conventional with stable. I am not understanding how we are going from a discussion inspired by their child exploring gender identity with them being abusive.

And although conventional is not always stable, it is not always stable to abandon convention.

[Scarlett]

That's a little bit of a leap there. They don't seem very conventional, but that doesn't mean they aren't stable enough to raise their children just fine. Nor does that mean they are confusing their child.

 

That's a harsh accusation to make towards someone when all we know about them is what the media chooses to feed us. I would never make that assumption about any other family just because they are unconventional.

Makes just as much sense as it does to assume they know what they are doing. We don't know them. Only from their antics and they aren't very shy about those.

[Amy in NH]

I know plenty of unsupportive conventional parents, and quite a few who would likely not be okay with their kids going outside of conventions especially wrt gender identity.  Not having done research into this aspect of the conversation, I would venture to state that the high numbers of suicides amongst trans peoples are related to a hostile upbringing in a conventional family/society.  Would that hostility be considered abusive?  Neglectful of the individual's needs?  What's more important: stable hostility or flexible health and wellbeing?

[Scarlett]

I know plenty of unsupportive conventional parents, and quite a few who would likely not be okay with their kids going outside of conventions especially wrt gender identity. Not having done research into this aspect of the conversation, I would venture to state that the high numbers of suicides amongst trans peoples are related to a hostile upbringing in a conventional family/society. Would that hostility be considered abusive? Neglectful of the individual's needs? What's more important: stable hostility or flexible health and wellbeing?

Not every parent who is stable is hostile. And not every parent who is flexible is serving their child's well being and health.

[Dory]

Makes just as much sense as it does to assume they know what they are doing. We don't know them. Only from their antics and they aren't very shy about those.

 

I guess I see it as an innocent until proven guilty thing. I don't know that they know what they are doing. They could be making a complete mess of all of those kids. But since I don't know, I will assume them as being ok parents. I do know they aren't perfect. I do know they make mistakes. Because we all do. But assuming evil of someone is pretty harsh.

[Scarlett]

I am gobsmacked that so many are so quick to sing the praises of Angelina and Brad. They do not conjure up good and positive role models for me.

[Scarlett]

I guess I see it as an innocent until proven guilty thing. I don't know that they know what they are doing. They could be making a complete mess of all of those kids. But since I don't know, I will assume them as being ok parents. I do know they aren't perfect. I do know they make mistakes. Because we all do. But assuming evil of someone is pretty harsh.

Assuming evil? Not sure I am doing that. Assuming the limelight perhaps.

[Dory]

I am gobsmacked that so many are so quick to sing the praises of Angelina and Brad. They do not conjure up good and positive role models for me.

 

I'm not about to sing their praises either. I haven't seen anything that makes me think they are amazing parents. There's a big difference between singing their praises and being hesitant to call them borderline abusive.

[Amy in NH]

Not every parent who is stable is hostile. And not every parent who is flexible is serving their child's well being and health.

 

My point is that you can also say the opposite.  Not every parent offering conventional stability is serving their child's well being and health, and not every parent who is flexible wtr to gender identity is offering an unstable or unhealthy environment as some recent posts have suggested.

 

[Amy in NH]

From what I've read, they seem to be pretty in tune and connected with their children.  Maybe you could point me to some evidence that they are poor parents? 

 

I'm not ready to condemn them just because they are rich celebrities.

[Joanne]

I am gobsmacked that so many are so quick to sing the praises of Angelina and Brad. They do not conjure up good and positive role models for me.

Who is "singing praises?"

 

I can't have this conversation. First, we are not talking about the same thing. The child is not 3 but 8. EIGHT.

 

And we are not talking about make believe play such as animals.

 

To keep juxtaposing pretend play with gender identity reveals a lack of understanding of gender.

 

It is also insulting. Actual gender issues are not "being a tomboy".

[Scarlett]

I'm not about to sing their praises either. I haven't seen anything that makes me think they are amazing parents. There's a big difference between singing their praises and being hesitant to call them borderline abusive.

Again abusive? Depends on the definition of the moment. Mostly I think they are laughable. Sad that a little girls life is in the middle of it all.

[Scarlett]

Who is "singing praises?"

 

I can't have this conversation. First, we are not talking about the same thing. The child is not 3 but 8. EIGHT.

 

And we are not talking about make believe play such as animals.

 

To keep juxtaposing pretend play with gender identity reveals a lack of understanding of gender.

 

It is also insulting. Actual gender issues are not "being a tomboy".

You can't have this conversation? Should I stop talking or should you? We are having a conversation and we disagree on the fundamentals.

[Dory]

Again abusive? Depends on the definition of the moment. Mostly I think they are laughable. Sad that a little girls life is in the middle of it all.

 

You're right. You never insinuated abusive. You said unstable. I'm sorry. That's was a bit of a leap on my part. As for the laughable, sometimes I wonder how much of that is them and how much of that is the media twisting things. If the media was following me around, my life would look pretty wild and ridiculous too.

[Scarlett]

From what I've read, they seem to be pretty in tune and connected with their children. Maybe you could point me to some evidence that they are poor parents?

 

I'm not ready to condemn them just because they are rich celebrities.

I think they are crazy and it has little to do with being rich celebrities.

[Scarlett]

You're right. You never insinuated abusive. You said unstable. I'm sorry. That's was a bit of a leap on my part. As for the laughable, sometimes I wonder how much of that is them and how much of that is the media twisting things. If the media was following me around, my life would look pretty wild and ridiculous too.

Right. Right up to the part where they dress their daughter in a mans suit for a very public appearance. Then I think it is just them and not the media.

[albeto.]

Right. Right up to the part where they dress their daughter in a mans suit for a very public appearance. Then I think it is just them and not the media.

 

Why do you think they do that only for one child? Why not don all their children in oppo-dress for public appearances? Why stop at gender-bending? 

[Dory]

Right. Right up to the part where they dress their daughter in a mans suit for a very public appearance. Then I think it is just them and not the media.

At her age do you really think they are forcing her to wear a suit. She seemed pretty comfortable in it. And really, it's just a set of clothes. I didn't know a suit was a horrible thing for a girl to want to wear. Or if they forced her to wear it, I didn't know a suit was a bad thing to 'dress' your child of any gender in. Although if they did force her to wear any clothes, that would be a different discussion.

[Joanne]

Right. Right up to the part where they dress their daughter in a mans suit for a very public appearance. Then I think it is just them and not the media.

What you are seeing and saying is not consistent with the information given.

[Scarlett]

I doubt they are forcing her. More like encouraging a quirk.

[Scarlett]

What you are seeing and saying is not consistent with the information given.

Huh? English please.

 

They dressed her in a mans suit. At that point It is impossible to blame the media for the image we have of them.

[Dory]

Huh? English please.

 

They dressed her in a mans suit. At that point It is impossible to blame the media for the image we have of them.

You don't know that they dressed her. She might have honestly wanted to wear that suit very much and they let their kid choose her own clothes at 8. You don't know that they encouraged a quirk or if they simply let the kid do her thing. You can't possibly know unless you have sources that no one here has listed. I certainly can't find enough information to say that they are encouraging it or just letting her do what she is comfortable and wanting to do. Perhaps they are permissive parents. That doesn't mean they dressed her or that they are encouraging it though.

[Scarlett]

You don't know that they dressed her. She might have honestly wanted to wear that suit very much and they let their kid choose her own clothes at 8. You don't know that they encouraged a quirk or if they simply let the kid do her thing. You can't possibly know unless you have sources that no one here has listed. I certainly can't find enough information to say that they are encouraging it or just letting her do what she is comfortable and wanting to do. Perhaps they are permissive parents. That doesn't mean they dressed her or that they are encouraging it though.

This is true. I do not know Angelina or Brad. I only know their bizarre public personalities. I do wonder who bought the suit and who fitted it to the girl and who cut her hair like a boys....but hey I guess maybe she is running her own life completely at age 8.

[Amy in NH]

This is true. I do not know Angelina or Brad. I only know their bizarre public personalities. I do wonder who bought the suit and who fitted it to the girl and who cut her hair like a boys....but hey I guess maybe she is running her own life completely at age 8.

 

 

So in addition to judging the Jolie-Pitt family, what you are saying (subtext) is that you would force your child to conform to gender stereotypes based on their visible genitalia/assigned gender? 

 

The question was asked "how would you react".  You could just state your answer without judging others who would/do it differently and/or have a different opinion than you.

[Dory]

This is true. I do not know Angelina or Brad. I only know their bizarre public personalities. I do wonder who bought the suit and who fitted it to the girl and who cut her hair like a boys....but hey I guess maybe she is running her own life completely at age 8.

 

well when I take my kids in for haircuts I let them choose their own hairstyle (so long as they can keep it healthy). When I take them clothes shopping, I let them choose their own clothes (so long as they are modest). If my dd wanted a suit, I'd let her get one and make sure it fit her. That doesn't mean I'm dressing her in a suit, it means I'm letting her have a suit and wear it. It's just clothes. It's just hair. And at age 8 most kids know what they want to wear and how they want their hair.

[albeto.]

Huh? English please.

 

They dressed her in a mans suit. At that point It is impossible to blame the media for the image we have of them.

 

Or... the child chose to wear the suit. The choice is consistent with a trend. That trend is becoming a topic we are beginning to talk about in society as we learn the unreliability of thinking sexuality is best understood in a conventional way, and concluding therefore children should adopt a sense of identity contrary to what is natural for them. We're learning the tragedy of coercing children to hide themselves even from those who love them the most. Perhaps the parents are simply not hiding an atypical experience because they do not fear the social repercussions most people would, and in doing so, are giving others the courage to step out of hiding as well. More power to them. 

[Scarlett]

well when I take my kids in for haircuts I let them choose their own hairstyle (so long as they can keep it healthy). When I take them clothes shopping, I let them choose their own clothes (so long as they are modest). If my dd wanted a suit, I'd let her get one and make sure it fit her. That doesn't mean I'm dressing her in a suit, it means I'm letting her have a suit and wear it. It's just clothes. It's just hair. And at age 8 most kids know what they want to wear and how they want their hair.

And I think it would be very weird to let an 8 yo girl dress in a suit. But hey I could be in the minority.

[Scarlett]

Or... the child chose to wear the suit. The choice is consistent with a trend. That trend is becoming a topic we are beginning to talk about in society as we learn the unreliability of thinking sexuality is best understood in a conventional way, and concluding therefore children should adopt a sense of identity contrary to what is natural for them. We're learning the tragedy of coercing children to hide themselves even from those who love them the most. Perhaps the parents are simply not hiding an atypical experience because they do not fear the social repercussions most people would, and in doing so, are giving others the courage to step out of hiding as well. More power to them.

I think they embrace the social repercussions.

[Dory]

And I think it would be very weird to let an 8 yo girl dress in a suit. But hey I could be in the minority.

 

It's definitely a different choice of clothing, but it's just clothes and I can't see the harm in a suit. She's not exactly the first girl to wear a suit.