Shiloh Pitt & very young children with gender identity issues

[TranquilMind]

I'm not sure if we're talking about the same article, the one from "kpopstarz".  I don't know what the rules are for linking here, but the article I'm looking at makes the statement that says something like previously, Angelina has revealed that Shiloh wants to be called John.  But the link that supports that statement is to an article from 2010 (when Shiloh was 4) where Angelina says, essentially that Shiloh likes wearing boys clothing, that she went through a phase when she liked to be called John (in 2010 this was described in the past tense like it was a phase that was already finished), and that she enjoys being with her brothers.  Angelina also repeated refers to Shiloh as "she/her" in the quote, and asks that people not over interpret.

But the politically-correct with an ax to grind, undoubtedly won't let it go, as Mom will. 

That's unfortunate. 

[Dory]

I know you're being light hearted here, and I know everyone else knows it and you don't mean anything else by it, but for some reason this bothers me. I think it's because while you're making light of this idea, I'm looking at this from the point of view of a child who is in considerable emotional distress (not Shiloh necessarily, but in general). It feels to me like joking about autism and suggesting someone just needs a good lickin' and that'll fix him. I know you're not suggesting anything mean like that, and I hope this doesn't come across the wrong way, and I'm only picking on you because I trust you'll understand I don't mean this about *you* but about this *idea* that you just happen to be the first to articulate in this discussion. And perhaps I'm pointing it out because it is such a common idea, and it is such a difficult scenario for not only the child, but the family, and ultimately society in general.

 

It raises all kinds of ethical questions for me. Let's say Shiloh wants to identify as a boy because his brain isn't producing enough testosterone. Let's say medical practice can offer a drug that inspires just enough manufacture of testosterone, or synthetic testosterone to get the brain back into typical function. Sort of like a gender-hormonal equivalent of thyroid hormone replacement therapy. Is it ethical for the parents to do that to a child in hopes of avoiding potential social difficulties and trauma, or is the ethical response to work towards a culture that accepts non traditional gender options so the individual is free to express him/herself as they desire? Which preserves the right of the child, or the right of society as a whole better? How do we determine what the rights of the child even is?

 

And also, do we only go by our own experiences when determining the legitimacy of challenges others face? I find that problematic not only in a practical setting, but also with regards to compassion and subsequent responses to such issues (which in turn are related to my question above - how do we determine the superior ethical choice?).

 

So joking about pretending to be a cat in the midst of a conversation that is real for some people seems, I don't know, like trivializing or mocking a serious issue maybe. Or am I being a downer because no one is expecting this conversation to get so serious?

 

But again, I don't think for a moment you mean to trivialize or mock the pain of a child. I don't think so at all. I just wonder if these kinds of jokes are ultimately insensitive (and therefore mean?), and if so, when do people stand up and say, "yeah, let's not." 

 

I was definitely not trying to trivialize the pain of a child. I was trying to answer the question about a 3yo. In which case, I do think, at 3, that it needs to be taken just a little less seriously. Kids at 3 don't need that much weight put on it. Or really, that much weight put on any of their decisions.

 

If the conversation is being changed to 8yo's, then it's a completely different story in my mind. If an 8yo was struggling with gender identity, then I would probably look for professional help and start looking at different options to help him/her figure out where he/she fit in life.

[poppy]

Yeah, that's whacked.

 

I grew up with dozens of "tomboys" and was myself one for a period of time, probably around 8 or 9, when I cared much more about climbing trees and playing with the boys next door than I did about girly stuff.

 

No issues here.  I think parents need to leave it alone and treat such talk as the fantasy it is (99% of the time). 

 

I'd respond exactly the same way as if a young child told me, "I'm a bear, Mommy!  Look at me growl!" 

 

I think there is a big difference between tomboy and transgender.    Many many many many girls play 'like boys'.  Very few want a boy name and a boy haircut to go with it-  especially kids with supportive parents and unlimited resources.

 

And I'm a little surprised anyone would be so dismissive of an 8 year old's identity.  "I'm a bear" is a game.  "I'm a girl, but I don't feel like one" is, for the child, surely at least a little confusing and troubling.  Not dealing with that at all, deciding to ignore it, dismissing it doesn't seem wise.

[catz]

I think the fact that the child asked for a name change at 3 and this came out at age 8 probably says that they've been over it quite a bit and it is well beyond a typical tomboy phase.  Even a couple years ago, I did not understand this to the degree I do now.  Being a girl with some some male cultural preferences is very different than having gender dysphoria disorder.  If a parent is walking this road with their child, you can be about guaranteed that it is not an easy road to walk nor is it taken lightly or in any way considered to be "humoring" a child.  I currently have a close friend with a 5 year old living fully as a girl, born as a boy.  The child was violent and angry before being allowed to change her name and live fully as a girl.  Now this child is all joy, sunshine, and flowers. 

 

Anyway, I think so much comes from lack of understanding.  There are some good documentaries on youtube about transgender children and their families and struggles.  It's so easy to judge when you're not in that situation. 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity_disorder

 

ETA - just for the record, I also find it extremely obnoxious that an 8 year old's preferences are being hashed out in the media. 

[Joyofsixreboot]

I'd call them something they wanted. We called oldest dd Pocahontas the year she was four. I wouldn't automatically think it meant anything. Sometimes we are too quick to attribute grown up reasons to kid think. I remember " being" a boy named Steve when we played house. I'm surely not unique. I don't know that I would be concerned if they did feel transgendered except for worrying about them being hurt by others.

[Ravin]

It looks to me like they made the right call. What is the alternative, insisting she keep long hair and dress in pink? I think it would be a lot more difficult for male-to-female. Girls can wear anything.

 

Comparing it to wanting to be a cat...... well, clearly, most 3 year olds are just weird creatures overall. But if the implication is that they artificially pushed a normal child to abnormality by overindulgence, I just don't think it's the case. Kids who aren't transgendered (like almost all kids - like just about every here's kids) don't go through anywhere near the kind of analysis and tough conversations that I'm sure little Shiloh/John has gone through. And we don't question that.

 

I respect the parents for being child-directed here, it's got to be hard. They clearly aren't shy about publicity but this is almost uncharted territory about one of their kids. I guess there is Chastity/Chaz Bono.

Chaz discussed in his documentary how painful it was for him to be dolled up and paraded around in curls and a dress when it didn't match what he felt inside. The Jolie-Pitts have done a good job from what I can see of respecting their child's identity while still dressing her appropriately for formal public occasions. Times have changed for the better, in that they have the freedom to do that.

[Amy in NH]

BTDT. 

[Ravin]

Whoa whoa whoa.

 

I don't think gender identity is a choice.

 

I'm not criticizing the Jolie-Pitt family.

 

I'm not even specifically talking about Shiloh/John now.

 

My only question was what do you do when your child is three. Three. Three.

 

Older ages are clearly a very different situation.

 

 

ETA: FWIW, I wonder about this because my parents were SO concerned with being supportive, they never waited to see if something was a phase. They decided phases were who I was, down to my mom telling my college interviewer that my career goal was what I said I wanted to be in fifth grade. So even though I have no gender identity issues (much of my girlfriends think I am too girly), I probably do have a tendency to assume anything a child is going through is a phase rather than an identity. I never thought of phases as something I was over-correcting in my own parenting until I read that article this morning. Just checking my own point of view, not criticizing anything.

I think it's important to see a child for who they are and what interests they hold in the now, not last year.

[Heidi]

My ds4 is very obviously NOT transgender, but he does love all things girl since he is surrounded by sisters.  He would rather wear the princess dresses than the spider man suit.  When he was 2-3, he wanted his nails painted too, he wanted to wear make up, he wanted to wear a dress to church instead of a suit, etc.  It was a phase.  I let him do that stuff at home, but in public I insisted that he dresses like a boy "because he's a boy like Daddy."  And he grew out of it.  He's fine being a boy.  I think allowing him to dress like a girl in public is sending the message that gender is unimportant, and I believe that would be damaging to a regular child that is NOT transgender.  Pursuing traditional gender roles is healthiest in regular children, imo.  I do not support letting the child be whatever gender they feel like being.

 

HOWEVER, if I had a truly transgender child that I knew it was not a phase, I honestly don't know what I would do in that situation.  I would probably honor his wishes if I was certain it was tied to his identity and not just a childish thing. 

 

Concerning Shiloh, I assume and hope the parents know their child well enough to discern the difference between a phase and an actual identity challenge, and that they are doing what they feel is best for their child.

[Luanne]

My nephew's favorite color was pink when he was young and he loved playing with dolls.  He is very much a man now (he is 21).  Just because he liked pink and dolls did not make him a girl.  I think parents are the ones who read too much into what the child does when they are young.  I liked playing with cars, trucks, and in the dirt as a child.  I also hated wearing dresses.  My parents did not raise me as a boy just because of that.

[Carrie12345]

Just an amusing (imo) side note, my sister is pregnant and annoyed that people keep asking if she knows/will know the sex. She wants them to ask about the gender so she can say "I won't know the gender until they tell me what gender they identify with."  (She's a therapist, lol.)

[idnib]

I didn't answer the quiz because I'm trying to understand if you're saying Shiloh is a toddler. Shiloh is 8.

 

Can you clarify?

 

Edit: nm, I see this started when Shiloh was a toddler.

 

I choose A and C both, but it's a radio button so I didn't vote. Basically I would support my kid in wearing whatever (s)he wanted to wear and be called. I would also let them know it's okay if this changes when they get older.

 

I still find the wording of the quiz a bit confusing though.

[poppy]

My nephew's favorite color was pink when he was young and he loved playing with dolls.  He is very much a man now (he is 21).  Just because he liked pink and dolls did not make him a girl.  I think parents are the ones who read too much into what the child does when they are young.  I liked playing with cars, trucks, and in the dirt as a child.  I also hated wearing dresses.  My parents did not raise me as a boy just because of that.

 

My question to you is, do you actually think anyone is transgendered. Or do you think they are all people whose parents raised them wrong?

[Guest]

I did not answer the poll because:

 

This is too complex to answer in a poll.

I would have to figure it out as I go if this happened with my child, but the board and specifically, the poster called Ravin, changed my understanding of gender non-conformity a lot. I could go along with this more easily now than a few years back.

[Joanne]

"Humor" is not the word I would use. I would use "honor" instead.

 

The OP makes me sad.

[LucyStoner]

My nephew's favorite color was pink when he was young and he loved playing with dolls. He is very much a man now (he is 21). Just because he liked pink and dolls did not make him a girl. I think parents are the ones who read too much into what the child does when they are young. I liked playing with cars, trucks, and in the dirt as a child. I also hated wearing dresses. My parents did not raise me as a boy just because of that.

I was (am!) a tomboy. I was a girl and I am a woman.

 

My brother being trans had very little to do with colors and preferred activities. Certainly no one was was reading anything into his behavior or encouraging him to be transgendered as a child. He simply was transgendered and that made for a pretty unhappy situation. Transitioning as a young adult was a lifesaver for him.

 

If non-gender conforming choices were indicative of being trans, I would have been trans and not my brother. I was comfortable with my non gender normative preferences because I was secure in my gender identity. My brother OTOH tried very hard to feel like a girl and to be a girl because he was so worried and confused and pressured.

[Katy]

While I understand that "honor" is a more appropriate word choice for an older child, when it comes to the three year olds I've known well I still think "humor" is the more appropriate word choice, primarily because I would not think they understood gender or all the associations that went along with it as toddlers.  Any more than any other absurd association toddlers are highly prone to make. And I don't imply humor in terms of laughter, but using it as a verb with the less common but still correct definition of "to adapt or accommodate oneself to."

[Ravin]

My ds4 is very obviously NOT transgender, but he does love all things girl since he is surrounded by sisters. He would rather wear the princess dresses than the spider man suit. When he was 2-3, he wanted his nails painted too, he wanted to wear make up, he wanted to wear a dress to church instead of a suit, etc. It was a phase. I let him do that stuff at home, but in public I insisted that he dresses like a boy "because he's a boy like Daddy." And he grew out of it. He's fine being a boy. I think allowing him to dress like a girl in public is sending the message that gender is unimportant, and I believe that would be damaging to a regular child that is NOT transgender. Pursuing traditional gender roles is healthiest in regular children, imo. I do not support letting the child be whatever gender they feel like being.

 

HOWEVER, if I had a truly transgender child that I knew it was not a phase, I honestly don't know what I would do in that situation. I would probably honor his wishes if I was certain it was tied to his identity and not just a childish thing.

 

Concerning Shiloh, I assume and hope the parents know their child well enough to discern the difference between a phase and an actual identity challenge, and that they are doing what they feel is best for their child.

And if your child was persistently gender nonconforming to the point of it impacting his sense of self-worth that you force him to conform, leading to depression, anger, etc. I assume you'd have sought professional advice rather than keep up a compromise that was making your child miserable.

 

There is a wide middle ground between "preschooler phase" and "clearly transgender."

[nukeswife]

I agree with those that didn't care for the choice of the word Humor in the first choice.  That's not what I would have considered myself doing if it was my 3 year old in that situation.  

 

To me the word Humor would be fine if we're asking about the example where someone's child wanted to be a cat, because not matter what that child can never be a cat, even if they got whisker implants and had their ears pointed, etc,  they would still be a human who had surgery to add cat features, this does not make them a cat.   Gender doesn't fall into those parameters though.  

[Χά�ων]

What if a girl wanted a different girls name and picked on and insisted on being called that? Or a boy wanted a different boys name?

[poppy]

While I understand that "honor" is a more appropriate word choice for an older child, when it comes to the three year olds I've known well I still think "humor" is the more appropriate word choice, primarily because I would not think they understood gender or all the associations that went along with it as toddlers.  Any more than any other absurd association toddlers are highly prone to make. And I don't imply humor in terms of laughter, but using it as a verb with the less common but still correct definition of "to adapt or accommodate oneself to."

 

I think we're all aware of that definition, but it's still a little cringeworthy to me. Maybe because it was the only "I'm ok with it" option and it doesn't sound exactly supportive. My criteria for my kids generally is, don't treat them in a way I'd not want to be treated.  If I felt strongly about something and my husband "humored" me, that would not make me feel respected. 

[poppy]

While I understand that "honor" is a more appropriate word choice for an older child, when it comes to the three year olds I've known well I still think "humor" is the more appropriate word choice, primarily because I would not think they understood gender or all the associations that went along with it as toddlers.  Any more than any other absurd association toddlers are highly prone to make. And I don't imply humor in terms of laughter, but using it as a verb with the less common but still correct definition of "to adapt or accommodate oneself to."

 

I think we're all aware of that definition, but it's still a little cringeworthy to me. Maybe because it was the only "I'm ok with it" option and it doesn't sound exactly supportive. My criteria for my kids generally is, don't treat them in a way I'd not want to be treated.  If I felt strongly about something and my husband "humored" me, that would not make me feel respected. 

 

Like everyone else, my kids sometimes behave like cats. I do humor that.

[Mommy22alyns]

I think the fact that the child asked for a name change at 3 and this came out at age 8 probably says that they've been over it quite a bit and it is well beyond a typical tomboy phase.  Even a couple years ago, I did not understand this to the degree I do now.  Being a girl with some some male cultural preferences is very different than having gender dysphoria disorder.  If a parent is walking this road with their child, you can be about guaranteed that it is not an easy road to walk nor is it taken lightly or in any way considered to be "humoring" a child.  I currently have a close friend with a 5 year old living fully as a girl, born as a boy.  The child was violent and angry before being allowed to change her name and live fully as a girl.  Now this child is all joy, sunshine, and flowers. 

 

Anyway, I think so much comes from lack of understanding.  There are some good documentaries on youtube about transgender children and their families and struggles.  It's so easy to judge when you're not in that situation. 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity_disorder

 

ETA - just for the record, I also find it extremely obnoxious that an 8 year old's preferences are being hashed out in the media. 

 

 

I agree with the bolded.  Let the poor child deal with this privately, not be a conversational football.

[sewingmama]

I think 8 is too young to be making decisions like that about a child. I would respect the childs choices but I wouldn't start attatching labels till much, much older. My DD is 8.. in fact 1 month younger then Shiloh. The other day she insisted on wearing cat ears and a tail out in public. She meowed and crawled on all fours. Just because she is older then 3 still doesn't mean I should give more weight to her insistance that she is a cat.

 

Wearing male/female clothing doesn't make you the opposite gender. Gender is a social construct. In Korea it is perfectly fine for boys to wear pink...in fact it is a boy colour...the little girls are usually most often dressed in grey or navy blue.

 

I know many adult women who wear suits, cut their hair short and would never wear a dress...yet they identify as being female.

 

I get tired of people labelling Shiloh transgendered...the general public does not have enough information to make that call.

So far all I get from the parents is she loves her brothers and wants to be like them. Who knows what will happen when puberty hits. I think her parents are handling it well... not making a big deal of it either way and just letting her be who she is. She was certainly born into the right family if she wants support for being transgendered later on.

 

For now..Shes eight...let her alone and stop trying to label her.

[mamaraby]

I think we're all aware of that definition, but it's still a little cringeworthy to me. Maybe because it was the only "I'm ok with it" option and it doesn't sound exactly supportive. My criteria for my kids generally is, don't treat them in a way I'd not want to be treated. If I felt strongly about something and my husband "humored" me, that would not make me feel respected.

 

Like everyone else, my kids sometimes behave like cats. I do humor that.

This. Word choices matter and the word "humor" in the poll along with the end of the sentence meant the only "yes" option read to me like "Let them do it even though it's silly. Totally JAWM about how absurd this is."

[Audrey]

I don't know what I would do.  I find it difficult to answer these kinds of hypothetical situations because we're talking about individual people and each person -- child or not -- needs to be considered on a case-by-case, situation-by-situation basis.  At least, that is my opinion.  So, I didn't vote.  Also, I don't think there is anything that can be said about the Pitts' choices.  They would know their child best and I would hope they would make the decision they felt was in the best interests of the child. I don't know their child.  I'm not qualified to speculate on whether or not their decision was a good one for her.

[Tanaqui]

But the politically-correct with an ax to grind, undoubtedly won't let it go, as Mom will. 

That's unfortunate. 

Who exactly do you mean by "the politically correct with an axe to grind"? Because the only people I've seen making a big deal about it are those who think that three year olds don't have a gender identity. (ALL three year olds do. Developing your gender identity is one of the crucial things you do as a toddler.)

 

Those who don't seem to get highly offended and irate about when they hear about it, as if such a decision is made on the fly without serious consideration of all the pros, cons, benefits, and risks. Of course it isn't!

 

Ah, yes, and whenever they do they bring up surgery. Nobody is chopping or sewing! Surgery isn't very common for adults, and it's not an option for transgender kids at all. The only thing they do for kids medically is hormone blockers - which we know are safe because we've been using them for decades on children with precocious puberty. If the kid changes his or her mind, they go off the blockers and puberty begins as normal, just a little later.

 

What if a girl wanted a different girls name and picked on and insisted on being called that? Or a boy wanted a different boys name?

 

 

Then I'd try to go along with it. It might be hard, because you get used to calling a child by a certain name, but it's THEIR name - not mine!

[Heidi]

And if your child was persistently gender nonconforming to the point of it impacting his sense of self-worth that you force him to conform, leading to depression, anger, etc. I assume you'd have sought professional advice rather than keep up a compromise that was making your child miserable.

 

Definitely.

[Ivey]

I didn't vote because the first option is the closest to how we've handled it, but our son was a little older and did understand what gender is. I also wouldn't use the word "humor". 

 

When my 12yo was 3-5, he often dressed in girls' clothes and wanted to be called "Alice" (which he got from Alice in Wonderland). At this point, he completely understood the differences between boys and girls and that he was physically male. He mostly dressed in male or androgynous clothing, but sometimes asked to buy female clothing and jewellery. I never knew whether he would come down for breakfast in jeans and a camo t-shirt, pink leggings and a tank top, or a leotard, tutu and tiara. When playing, he would always dress as a girl and pretend to be one. He was the mother, the sister, the princess, the puppy named Misty, the teacher named Miss Johnson, etc. He wished on his birthday candles and even prayed to be turned into a girl. He never said that he was a girl, just that he wanted to be a girl, God should have made him as a girl, life would be easier if he was a girl, etc. We just let him wear what he wanted (within reason), called him Alice when he asked us to (not 24/7, but if he asked we'd keep it up for a while) and consulted a child psychologist who basically told us to wait and see. 

 

I never thought of this as a phase, but as a period of questioning his gender identity. We weren't "humoring" him, just following his lead. I see gender identity a lot like I see sexual orientation - that some people come out of the womb knowing exactly who they are, what they are and what they're attracted to, while others take a lot longer to figure things out. It just happens that this gender questioning and experimentation often starts by 3, instead of 13. 

 

By age 5 or so, Ds had dropped "Alice" and stopped wearing girls clothes in public. By 7 or 8, he no longer had any desire to be a girl. At 12, he still has more traditionally "girly" interests than his brothers and mostly female friends, but he is very masculine in his demeanor, mannerisms and appearance. He now seems to be very comfortable with his gender identity, which I doubt would have been the case if we'd forced him to wait until he was 18 to try on a tutu. 

 

I won't comment on Shiloh Pitt, except to say that Brad and Angelina seem to be wonderful parents. I'm sure they're doing what is best for their child, whether or not it would be right for your child or mine. 

[JadeOrchidSong]

Just an amusing (imo) side note, my sister is pregnant and annoyed that people keep asking if she knows/will know the sex. She wants them to ask about the gender so she can say "I won't know the gender until they tell me what gender they identify with." (She's a therapist, lol.)

That is taking it too far, IMHO.

[ocelotmom]

The only part that baffles me is that Shiloh is actually a male name to begin with. In fact, I think the primary reason it's seen as a female name now is because of Shiloh Jolie-Pitt.

 

I guess I can see it from a "This is the name you gave me thinking I was a female, and therefore I want a different name to emphasize that I don't identify as a female." standpoint.

[Katy]

I didn't vote because the first option is the closest to how we've handled it, but our son was a little older and did understand what gender is. I also wouldn't use the word "humor". 

 

When my 12yo was 3-5, he often dressed in girls' clothes and wanted to be called "Alice" (which he got from Alice in Wonderland). At this point, he completely understood the differences between boys and girls and that he was physically male. He mostly dressed in male or androgynous clothing, but sometimes asked to buy female clothing and jewellery. I never knew whether he would come down for breakfast in jeans and a camo t-shirt, pink leggings and a tank top, or a leotard, tutu and tiara. When playing, he would always dress as a girl and pretend to be one. He was the mother, the sister, the princess, the puppy named Misty, the teacher named Miss Johnson, etc. He wished on his birthday candles and even prayed to be turned into a girl. He never said that he was a girl, just that he wanted to be a girl, God should have made him as a girl, life would be easier if he was a girl, etc. We just let him wear what he wanted (within reason), called him Alice when he asked us to (not 24/7, but if he asked we'd keep it up for a while) and consulted a child psychologist who basically told us to wait and see. 

 

I never thought of this as a phase, but as a period of questioning his gender identity. We weren't "humoring" him, just following his lead. I see gender identity a lot like I see sexual orientation - that some people come out of the womb knowing exactly who they are, what they are and what they're attracted to, while others take a lot longer to figure things out. It just happens that this gender questioning and experimentation often starts by 3, instead of 13. 

 

By age 5 or so, Ds had dropped "Alice" and stopped wearing girls clothes in public. By 7 or 8, he no longer had any desire to be a girl. At 12, he still has more traditionally "girly" interests than his brothers and mostly female friends, but he is very masculine in his demeanor, mannerisms and appearance. He now seems to be very comfortable with his gender identity, which I doubt would have been the case if we'd forced him to wait until he was 18 to try on a tutu. 

 

I won't comment on Shiloh Pitt, except to say that Brad and Angelina seem to be wonderful parents. I'm sure they're doing what is best for their child, whether or not it would be right for your child or mine. 

 

Wow, this is really informative. Thank you SO much for posting Ivey.

[Farrar]

I haven't read the responses, but I can't answer in a poll that has no other phrasing than the very patronizing "humor them." I wouldn't humor my kid, I would honor their wishes, which is pretty different in my view.

 

One of my ds was, as a young kid, what the buzzwords now call gender non-conforming. He liked all things pink and frilly and wanted long hair. But he was also always clear he was a boy. I admit it would have taken some head wrapping around it if he had wanted to be a girl, not just wear pink tutus. I do think these things can be fluid in youth - certainly now that ds is very boyish and other than his ballet passion doesn't have any "girl" attributes - he changed over time on his own. But I think when it's a consistent request, it's to be taken seriously.

 

ETA: And apparently I wasn't the only one who really took issue with "humor." Interesting thread...

[Guest submarines]

This poll is very difficult to vote in because of how the options are constructed.

 

I'd "humour" (I don't like this word choice, sorry) a request from a child to be called a different name, and I would respect their autonomy in however they wanted to be dressed. But I'd also talk to them about not making any definitive decisions until they are older, because I don't believe that a girl who wants to be called John and wear boy's clothing when she's 3 is dramatically different from a girl who wants to be a puppy and wear her dog dress up costume with pink tights. Even if it persists for months and months.

 

I wouldn't forbid either, I wouldn't worry about either, and I'll play along...but also talk about, you know, context.

 

I would absolutely support my children in their expressions of identity, but I think that encouraging children to make *permanent* gender related decisions when they are toddlers or preschoolers and even middle schoolers is beyond irresponsible. Just like I wouldn't start going overboard with my "kitty child." Kitty dress up? Great. Lapping milk? Great. Wanting to purr instead of  talking? Great! (well, not really, but not a big deal either.) But I wouldn't start buying only kitty dress-up, and I wouldn't buy cat food and I wouldn't overemphasize this at all. And I wouldn't go on the news, and I wouldn't make a big deal out of it. And I would continue giving her options, which is absolutely possible to do without invalidating her feelings.

[Mergath]

This poll is very difficult to vote in because of how the options are constructed.

 

I'd "humour" (I don't like this word choice, sorry) a request from a child to be called a different name, and I would respect their autonomy in however they wanted to be dressed. But I'd also talk to them about not making any definitive decisions until they are older, because I don't believe that a girl who wants to be called John and wear boy's clothing when she's 3 is dramatically different from a girl who wants to be a puppy and wear her dog dress up costume with pink tights. Even if it persists for months and months.

 

I wouldn't forbid either, I wouldn't worry about either, and I'll play along...but also talk about, you know, context.

 

I would absolutely support my children in their expressions of identity, but I think that encouraging children to make *permanent* gender related decisions when they are toddlers or preschoolers and even middle schoolers is beyond irresponsible. Just like I wouldn't start going overboard with my "kitty child." Kitty dress up? Great. Lapping milk? Great. Wanting to purr instead of talking? Great! (well, not really, but not a big deal either.) But I wouldn't start buying only kitty dress-up, and I wouldn't buy cat food and I wouldn't overemphasize this at all. And I wouldn't go on the news, and I wouldn't make a big deal out of it. And I would continue giving her options, which is absolutely possible to do without invalidating her feelings.

Why do you think it has to be a permanent choice? A girl could decide she wants to be a boy and then change her mind a year later. I don't think any of us who support letting young children explore their gender identity are saying they have to make a permanent choice.

[Farrar]

As I understand it, there are some medical therapies that can be begun before puberty that absolutely do have lifelong consequences. I don't think anyone is advocating they be used on children as young as three though.

[Mergath]

As I understand it, there are some medical therapies that can be begun before puberty that absolutely do have lifelong consequences. I don't think anyone is advocating they be used on children as young as three though.

Ah. Yeah, I should hope no one would do something like that. That's the kind of thing a person needs to decide for him or herself.

[Carrie12345]

Just an amusing (imo) side note, my sister is pregnant and annoyed that people keep asking if she knows/will know the sex. She wants them to ask about the gender so she can say "I won't know the gender until they tell me what gender they identify with."  (She's a therapist, lol.)

 

 

That is taking it too far, IMHO.

 

:huh:   Too far to what? Maybe her semi-humorous tone didn't come across, but even then I don't understand what "too far" means.

I dared her to do the whole "genderless" deal and she said she'd lose her mind. THAT'S probably "too far" in terms of daily effort, lol.

 

No child is cookie cutter anything. Contemplating the many possible ways they might not fit the mold seems like a perfectly normal thing to do, to me, especially for a professional family therapist!

[Elisabet1]

I did not vote, the choices seemed confusing. But, children that young frequently experiment with other names. And "real boys" can like pink and pretty stuff and "real girls" can prefer pants and climbing in trees. I think that the big deal being made of Shiloh's phase right now is going to harm her in the end. Maybe she will be transgendered in the end. But perhaps the girl who wears pretty dresses and frills will be transgendered and Shiloh will not be. But simply wearing what Shiloh choses to wear does not make her a boy, or a different gender. Boys and girls are not defined by their interests or style of dress. I wish people would stop sexualizing it all and would let children be children, including all the different experimenting with whatever direction they want to go.

[Joanne]

I don't know if Shiloh is transgendered or not; but 5 YEARS in a child is not a phase.

[Elisabet1]

I don't know if Shiloh is transgendered or not; but 5 YEARS in a child is not a phase.

My niece on my husband's side preferred boy type clothes and dark colors. She liked anime and - con conventions and would never wear or have anything "girlish." She was guy characters at these -con conventions. Some people kept saying she was transgendered. Some even claimed she wanted a sex change operation. She never told me this. But these are things others assumed on the outside. She is a senior in high school now (not from my birth family I have spoken of). She has a boyfriend. She still has no interest in girly hair or manicures or pedicures or tons of makeup. Does not mean she is or ever was transgendered. Even girls can have these preferences. People should stop with the "adult" labels and let people grow up free of labels. She hasn't done anything wrong. She is just being her and there is nothing sexual or gender identity about this. Anyone remember the 80's when the style for business women was suits and ties that looked like men? Was that the 80's? Anyway..did not make all those women "transgendered." Or when men had ruffles on their clothes long ago, did not make them transgendered either. When the media publishes stories on Shiloh, they are not asking her how she feels. They do not even know her. They just want a story they can put out there that others will purchase. That is it. I wish the media would see children are hands off and leave them in peace.

[Carrie12345]

When the media publishes stories on Shiloh, they are not asking her how she feels. They do not even know her. They just want a story they can put out there that others will purchase. That is it. I wish the media would see children are hands off and leave them in peace.

 

I don't fully see it that way. I mean, I do think a good deal of caution needs to be used when discussing other people's children, but the real heart of the matter is how the parents are approaching the situation. And I haven't seen anything (though I'm not actively digging, lol) that declares this particular child transgender. The parents have mentioned their child's current perspective and stated their support.  Which, imo, is what good parents do in any scenario.

[catz]

I don't fully see it that way. I mean, I do think a good deal of caution needs to be used when discussing other people's children, but the real heart of the matter is how the parents are approaching the situation. And I haven't seen anything (though I'm not actively digging, lol) that declares this particular child transgender. The parents have mentioned their child's current perspective and stated their support.  Which, imo, is what good parents do in any scenario.

 

:iagree: I think Shiloh's parents are doing a good job.  They're allowing her to be herself without labeling or making too big a deal out of it.  This is part of the reason I hate reality shows with children on them.  Kids should be allowed to be themselves and then be able reinvent themselves over and over without additional comment or commentary.  I think everyone should just back off on celebrity children.

[Amy in NH]

For the record, OP: A 3-yo is not a toddler, they are a preschooler.  There is a huge difference in development and awareness.

 

IME, sometimes transgendered people know early on that they are trans but go through a phase of trying to fit in as the gender they were assigned at birth.  So they may start out as preschoolers identifying in many ways as the gender opposite that which they were assigned, and then "grow out of it" - acting as if they identify as their assigned gender - before finally coming to the realization that they are living a lie.  This realization can lead to anxiety and depression in the teen years, especially if puberty has already changed their body into something anathema to them.  It is worth exploring these issues with a prepubescent child who has shown gender dysphoria so that hormone blockers can keep them from turning into something that is much more difficult and expensive to change later on. 

 

Do clothes and a name make someone trans?  No.  But they may be the only way a young trans person can express their gender identification.

 

Even if someone who expresses gender nonconformity early on does not turn out to identify as trans later in life, they could still be non-binary.  The issue is that we (society) force them to choose one or the other when they could really be somewhere in the middle.

[flyingiguana]

At 3, my daughter thought she was a cat.

 

Eventually, we all grow up and realize we're not cats.

 

But it's hard to tell with a kid that age if thinking they are of the opposite gender from what's on their birth certificate is just a phase or if it really means something.  Or what it means.  Cause, you know, there are boys who just like to wear tiaras and skirts because they're fascinated by bling and swirly stuff. 

 

And there are girls who grow up to drive trucks.  It's also perfectly possible to be a girl who doesn't wear make up or tiaras.

 

I'd just as soon drop all the labels and let people be who they are, wear what they want, and pick a name that feels right.  Given that, I see no reason not to let a 3 yr old do this too.

 

 

[flyingiguana]

It's also hard to separate out the fact that a lot of male roles tend to be more interesting than female roles, as they're portrayed in the media.  So a girl wanting to try out being a boy is not that surprising.  It may be the most interesting stuff they see on TV.  Meanwhile, girls' roles still are pretty restrictive.

 

http://www.salon.com/2014/12/22/valerie_plame_most_female_spies_in_pop_culture_are_gun_wielding_eye_candy/

"Valerie Plame: Most female spies in pop culture are gun-wielding eye candy...."

 

Sure, we can all point to books or TV shows where the girl gets a starring role, but there are many, many more where the boy gets all the plot and the girl stands around and looks pretty.  A 3 yr old is going to be less able to understand that this restriction on her play options can be overturned if she chooses.  So it may be more likely for a 3 yr old to go the easy route and decide she has to be a boy if she wants to do anything interesting.

 

So, if I were the parent, I would take the child's preferences seriously, but I wouldn't assume it meant anything for their future.  I would wait for the future to figure that out.  There are just too many societal pressures acting on kids at this age for anyone to really know what it means.

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

I'd probably humor the kid at home.  I'd also not assume it meant anything.  It might, but it might not.  My kids had some interesting likes and wishes at 3.  One of mine wanted to take ballet lessons.  He was quite dismayed to discover that boys do not get to wear the pretty ballet clothing at dance class.  At this point he seems to have no desire to wear skirts.  He wasn't adamant about the clothing.  Had he been, I might have considered getting him the girl's clothing and talking to the school.  I actually do not think they would have had a problem with it.  Certainly not with a 3 or 4 year old. 

[Dmmetler]

At age 3, I don't see much difference between a child who wants to be called "John" and insists she's a boy and one who wants to be called "Sparkle" and insists she's a unicorn princess. I'm not going to read anything more into it.

 

At age 6, if she still wants to be called "John", that's a different story.

[SparklyUnicorn]

At age 3, I don't see much difference between a child who wants to be called "John" and insists she's a boy and one who wants to be called "Sparkle" and insists she's a unicorn princess. I'm not going to read anything more into it.

 

At age 6, if she still wants to be called "John", that's a different story.

 

I'd like to be called Sparkle.  I am a unicorn princess after all.

 

A very non girly unicorn princess.  Talk about odd. 

[poppy]

I'd probably humor the kid at home.  I'd also not assume it meant anything.  It might, but it might not.  My kids had some interesting likes and wishes at 3.  One of mine wanted to take ballet lessons.  He was quite dismayed to discover that boys do not get to wear the pretty ballet clothing at dance class.  At this point he seems to have no desire to wear skirts.  He wasn't adamant about the clothing.  Had he been, I might have considered getting him the girl's clothing and talking to the school.  I actually do not think they would have had a problem with it.  Certainly not with a 3 or 4 year old. 

 

I'm confused, did you let him take lessons? My son takes ballet  in pants... he's 4.