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Shiloh Pitt & very young children with gender identity issues


Katy
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Young children gender identity  

219 members have voted

  1. 1. How would you react if your very young child wanted to be a different gender?

    • I'd humor them and call them whatever name they wanted, even if they were a toddler and didn't understand what gender means.
      57
    • I'd let them dress however they want, but reinforce that physically they are a certain gender.
      37
    • I'd tell them that's something they can decide when they are older, and I'll love them no matter what.
      38
    • I'd tell them they are the gender they are born and not humor their request because it's probably a phase.
      60
    • I'd tell them they are the gender they are born and not humor their request because it's against my religion to do otherwise.
      27


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There's an article trending on facebook about how Shiloh Pitt claimed she was a boy and wanted to be called John since she was 3.  They've honored her request at home, and have only recently made her request public.

 

Personally, I'm a little surprised by this.  I had tomboy friends growing up (most of which had a lot of brothers) who became very girly once they hit puberty, and don't have gender identity issues now.  I think I'd lean towards saying, "I love you very much, but you were born a girl (and explain body differences).  Sometimes when people grow up they decide they want to be a boy instead of a girl, or a girl instead of a boy, but that's not really something you should not decide until you grow up.  If when you're all grown up you still want to be a boy we'll talk about that then."

 

But all these articles are acting as if it's very good and brave of them to humor the request of a three year old, who I can't imagine even understands the difference between boys and girls.

 

Am I totally off base for thinking a child should wait?  FWIW, none of my kids seem to have these issues, I'm just curious.

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I would respect my child's choices and allow her to live as whichever gender she wanted.  When a young child's gender matches his or her sex we don't say, "Well, why don't you wait until you're older to decide for sure?"  So why would we say that when a child feels they're transgender?

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I think it has to be a decision made by the parents who know their child well. I've certainly known kids who wanted to be called the name of the opposite gender and acted like that gender who grew out of that phase of playing. But I also know kids who aren't playing and know something is off about them at a young age.

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I think it has to be a decision made by the parents who know their child well. I've certainly known kids who wanted to be called the name of the opposite gender and acted like that gender who grew out of that phase of playing. But I also know kids who aren't playing and know something is off about them at a young age.

 

That's just it.  If the child isn't actually transgender and it is only a phase, there's no harm done by indulging it.  So a little girl lives as a boy for a year and then goes back to being a girl.  So?  I guess I don't understand why that would be a problem for some people.  All you've done in that case is raised a kid who is comfortable with him or herself and comfortable with other people no matter their differences.  Sounds like a win to me.

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I couldn't say for sure without knowing the child, but with most kids I would try to just not make it a big deal. I wouldn't go out of my way to reinforce a non-biological gender, but I wouldn't argue over the issue either other than maybe pointing out physical differences between boys and girls. I was a tomboy and thought boy things were cooler than girl things. I never grew out of that, I just continued to do a lot more "boyish" than "girlish" things. I still do. That's personality not gender identity. In a three year old I'd be more inclined to see personality than gender identity as the underlying issue to be respected.

 

A fifteen year old would be an entirely different matter.

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For my friends who have children who question their biological gender vs who they feel they are on the inside....it wasn't a simple request from the child that made the parents agree to allow the child to identify with the opposite gender.  It was apparent from the day the child came home that the child followed the traditional gender roles of the opposite gender despite being culturally influenced by their biological gender roles. Overly simplified examples....  ie girl was given dolls, girl played with trucks.  boy was given pirate costume for dress up, boy chose princess tiaras instead. 

 

It can do harm to the child to force them into a gender role that doesn't fit with the mental image they have of themselves.  To allow a child to 'be' the gender they ask, isn't going to hurt them if it is done in a loving and graceful manner.  I think parents who allow this at a very young age are just working with the child and allowing them to present themselves to the world as who they ask to be.  I have some friends, who as adults, see gender as a very fluid thing.  Ironically these are not the families who I see have a child who is transgendered.  In my personal experience, it is the parents who didn't even really know such a thing exists, who are the ones being forced into trying to understand gender vs sexuality in children.  

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I'm somewhere between choice 1 and 2 but since you specified age 3 not the age they are now then I lean toward choice 2.  At 3 years old lots of kids are gender fluid.  It's like playing dress up.  So yes, I would let the child dress how they want but no I would not refer to them as a boy probably explaining that they may feel that way now but that also might change so let's not confuse Mommy too much.  

I might be willing to call the child by a different name if they were really adamant but my DD wanted to be called Emily as a child and since it's not her name I refused.  That's not to say I wouldn't 100% support my child's choice to self identify later but at 3?  At around 6-8 if my child still identified as a different gender then we'd look into therapy and do what was needed to make them feel "right".  

What the Jolie-Pitts are doing is very similar except they willingly call Shiloh, John.  Jolie still referred to her child as a "she" and "her" in a recent interview.  they seem to not be overly concerned but I'm sure they had many serious discussions between themselves and possibly a therapist.  I agree 100% with how they are handling it, as if it's not really an issue.  Also the child isn't just a tomboy from the statements made they feel like a boy. Tomboys are girls who like doing things boys like to do, knowing the whole time they are a girl.  There's a big difference.  I'm not knowledgeable enough about this topic to know the "best" way to handle it.  I do know from reading personal accounts that children who's parents support them early in life (in regards to gender and sexual preference identity) are better adjusted/happier and less likely to commit suicide and isn't that the goal of a parent?  To have happy well adjusted and long living children?

 

ETA: The main reason that at 3 I wouldn't call my child by a different name is that it would be very hard for me to remember and I'd mess up all the time causing fights.  Plus I rarely call them by their actual names, DD has over 20 different nicknames that I use to refer to her and I almost always call my son "Bub".

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My younger brother is a FTM transgendered person.

 

It was obvious that he was unhappy as girl early on.

 

I would allow a teenager to consider transitioning if they were diagnosed as having gender dysphoria.

 

My brother was binding his chest and using his male name at age 16-17. He started hormonal treatment and had chest surgery not long after he turned 18. He also had his name change and gender legally changed.

 

That said, I have to say that I have seen parents react to a stage as though it was gender dysphoria and get a little carried away. It happens.

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If you're thinking of the article that I've seen, it's basing the whole idea on a couple things.  One is that when Shiloh was 2, Brad Pitt told Oprah a cute story in which Shiloh asked to be called John like John from Peter Pan.  The other is that Shiloh s seen in public, including at a recent movie premier, with short hair and a masculine clothing.

 

I do think there are children who know, from an early age that their gender does not match their biological sex, and are extremely distressed when this knowledge is challenged.  This is a hugely challenging situation for parents, and best handled with the help of professionals.  In my opinion, allowing the child to transition to living as the gender with which they identify is an option that should be considered, and can be the right choice for some kids.  

 

But to jump from the fact that at age 2 Shiloh asked to be called after a cartoon character, and the fact that she prefers male clothing, to the idea that she must be trans is a huge jump. There are plenty of kids out there who identify as the gender they were assigned at birth, and yet enjoy wearing boyish clothes, and playing pretend with male roles.  My guess is that kids in this category are more common than kids with true gender identity disorder.  Making assumptions about someone else's young child, when the family hasn't said anything to indicate one way or the other, is unfair.

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This is too complex to answer in a poll.

 

I would not humor them (at 3) if they decided they wanted to be called a name other than their given name - no matter the gender. I don't care what my kids wear, so I would humor them in that department. Overall, the whims of a 3yo are too fickle for me to take seriously. I wouldn't scold them or try to change their mind.

 

My boys love to play dolls and my girls play war. I let my son paint his nails. We have had various, "I wish I was a [opposite gender] moments." (Yeah, I wish I could pee standing up, too.) It would take a lot more than that for me to assume there was a real gender identity issue.

 

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I would respect my child's choices and allow her to live as whichever gender she wanted. When a young child's gender matches his or her sex we don't say, "Well, why don't you wait until you're older to decide for sure?" So why would we say that when a child feels they're transgender?

But how do you know they feel they're transgender? I think many, many children mistake social constructs attached to gender for innate gender characteristics. I know that was the case with me, when I went through a time when I decided I wanted to be a boy, and called myself a boy's name. I saw that girls had dumb, garishly pink toys and all of the girls at school seemed to be superficial and obsessed with fads and boys. I loved horses, dogs, camping, hiking, reading--I decided I wasn't like the other girls and didn't want to be. But there is nothing innately feminine or masculine in those things. I as a child was just too young to recognize that.

 

One thing that helped me as a kid recognize the difference was a conversation in Caddie Woodlawn, when her father talks with Caddie about the differences between their society's ideas of a "lady" vs. a woman.

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But how do you know they feel they're transgender? I think many, many children mistake social constructs attached to gender for innate gender characteristics. I know that was the case with me, when I went through a time when I decided I wanted to be a boy, and called myself a boy's name. I saw that girls had dumb, garishly pink toys and all of the girls at school seemed to be superficial and obsessed with fads and boys. I loved horses, dogs, camping, hiking, reading--I decided I wasn't like the other girls and didn't want to be. But there is nothing innately feminine or masculine in those things. I as a child was just too young to recognize that.

 

One thing that helped me as a kid recognize the difference was a conversation in Caddie Woodlawn, when her father talks with Caddie about the differences between their society's ideas of a "lady" vs. a woman.

 

Some kids just know they're transgender from a young age.  Some kids probably feel what you did, and identify with the characteristics imposed on either gender by society but aren't actually trans.  I'm happy to let my child figure that out by exploring her own identity.  It's okay to not know, and to want to try out different things.

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If you're thinking of the article that I've seen, it's basing the whole idea on a couple things.  One is that when Shiloh was 2, Brad Pitt told Oprah a cute story in which Shiloh asked to be called John like John from Peter Pan.  The other is that Shiloh s seen in public, including at a recent movie premier, with short hair and a masculine clothing.

 

I do think there are children who know, from an early age that their gender does not match their biological sex, and are extremely distressed when this knowledge is challenged.  This is a hugely challenging situation for parents, and best handled with the help of professionals.  In my opinion, allowing the child to transition to living as the gender with which they identify is an option that should be considered, and can be the right choice for some kids.  

 

But to jump from the fact that at age 2 Shiloh asked to be called after a cartoon character, and the fact that she prefers male clothing, to the idea that she must be trans is a huge jump. There are plenty of kids out there who identify as the gender they were assigned at birth, and yet enjoy wearing boyish clothes, and playing pretend with male roles.  My guess is that kids in this category are more common than kids with true gender identity disorder.  Making assumptions about someone else's young child, when the family hasn't said anything to indicate one way or the other, is unfair.

 

I saw the article on Facebook and googled, it appeared as if Angelina explained the whole family has been calling Shiloh John since the age of three, and are only now making it public.  She did refer to the child as "Her" and also said something to the effect of "this is probably rather obnoxious to anyone but parents."  It seemed pretty balanced and loving, just not the way I would have instinctively handled it, which is why I wondered what everyone else here thought.

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I really don't care how my kids want to have their hair, regardless of their gender. So long as they keep it clean and healthy. I don't really care how they want to dress. If they are more comfortable wearing a certain style, well then wear that style. I have no problem humouring name choices at home. Dd went through a phase where she was insistent that she was Amy. I do insist that in public they need to go by their legal name until they are older. They need to use washrooms and such that line up with their physical gender, not how they feel. I just don't see the sense in making a big deal out of any of it otherwise though. Kids tend to play around with things figuring out who they are and how they want to express themselves. I think it does more harm then good when people start reaffirming those non-sensical (yes I know that word doesn't exist) strict gender roles when kids are just experimenting. There are lots of soft feminine boys, and lots of tomboyish girls, and it might be that the kids decide they are still the gender they were assigned at birth, but in a less traditional way. And that's ok. Or as they hit their prepubescent years, they might realize that they really don't feel like the gender they were assigned, and that's ok too. I think not poking our noses in and defining everything for them, is best. let them figure out who they are without adults meddling in unhelpful ways.

 

My only rule, is that outside the house, you need to just live with the name that is your legal name. At least while you are younger. And you need to use the proper facilities for your physical gender.

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Thing is, I've known a three year old who adamantly insisted, for quite some time, that she was a cat. She crawled around on all fours and meowed at everyone and wanted to be treated like a cat. Even tried to eat like a cat.

 

Maybe she really thought she was a cat.

 

She was three. She is no longer three. She is no longer a cat (though she still likes cats).

 

A three year old is above all a three year old.

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That's just it.  If the child isn't actually transgender and it is only a phase, there's no harm done by indulging it.  So a little girl lives as a boy for a year and then goes back to being a girl.  So?  I guess I don't understand why that would be a problem for some people.  All you've done in that case is raised a kid who is comfortable with him or herself and comfortable with other people no matter their differences.  Sounds like a win to me.

 

Oh I think a parent should let the child act as whatever gender they want but in the case of a kid just playing the parents have to realize the child is just playing.  Sadly, I've seen parents who were very supportive of their child's gender identity but when the child was done playing the parents assumed it was because the child started realizing it wasn't normal rather than just a phase they grew out of.  So I guess the harm comes from the parent pushing too hard when the child isn't actually transgender. Hence, my comment that the parent needs to know the child well and make the decision appropriately at the beginning and throughout (does that make sense?)

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Oh I think a parent should let the child act as whatever gender they want but in the case of a kid just playing the parents have to realize the child is just playing.  Sadly, I've seen parents who were very supportive of their child's gender identity but when the child was done playing the parents assumed it was because the child started realizing it wasn't normal rather than just a phase they grew out of.  So I guess the harm comes from the parent pushing too hard when the child isn't actually transgender. Hence, my comment that the parent needs to know the child well and make the decision appropriately at the beginning and throughout (does that make sense?)

 

Sorry, my post wasn't really directed at you.  I just used it as a jumping off point for further discussion. :)

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Thing is, I've known a three year old who adamantly insisted, for quite some time, that she was a cat. She crawled around on all fours and meowed at everyone and wanted to be treated like a cat. Even tried to eat like a cat.

 

Maybe she really thought she was a cat.

 

She was three. She is no longer three. She is no longer a cat (though she still likes cats).

 

A three year old is above all a three year old.

 

That's is so sad that her decision to be a cat wasn't honoured. Poor child! Her self expression was probably squashed horribly.

 

Totally being facetious here.

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Oh I think a parent should let the child act as whatever gender they want but in the case of a kid just playing the parents have to realize the child is just playing.  Sadly, I've seen parents who were very supportive of their child's gender identity but when the child was done playing the parents assumed it was because the child started realizing it wasn't normal rather than just a phase they grew out of.  So I guess the harm comes from the parent pushing too hard when the child isn't actually transgender. Hence, my comment that the parent needs to know the child well and make the decision appropriately at the beginning and throughout (does that make sense?)

 

Is there really a whole lot of cases of parents pushing children to be transgender?  Really? You've seen this multiple times in your own life? Really?  

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That's is so sad that her decision to be a cat wasn't honoured. Poor child! Her self expression was probably squashed horribly.

 

Totally being facetious here.

I admit there are days I wouldn't mind trading places with one of our cats. They lie around on my bed all day, eat when they want, chase a bird now and then...

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That's is so sad that her decision to be a cat wasn't honoured. Poor child! Her self expression was probably squashed horribly.

 

Totally being facetious here.

 

Lol, but in all seriousness, it isn't hurting anything to let the kid be a cat.  I mean, I'd draw the line at the child doing things that could be physically harmful, like eating canned cat food or something, but if my kid decides she's a cat and wants to crawl around, meow, and sleep on the floor, it's not hurting me any.

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Lol, but in all seriousness, it isn't hurting anything to let the kid be a cat.  I mean, I'd draw the line at the child doing things that could be physically harmful, like eating canned cat food or something, but if my kid decides she's a cat and wants to crawl around, meow, and sleep on the floor, it's not hurting me any.

 

In all seriousness, I agree with you. Except in public. In public I required that the kids behave as the humans that they are physically. At home they can behave as the cats they 'feel' that they are.

Or dogs

or birds

or horses

or boys

or girls

whatever really.

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Eh, I'd humor it to an extent. I let my kids choose their own clothing, as long as it's decent and close enough to weather appropriate. I put my foot down for certain occasions, where a societal norm is expected -- ie no jeans to your aunt's wedding or great-grandmother's funeral or Easter church service, but tbh, they don't give me grief about that anyway. I said, "X outfit would be appropriate," and they didn't argue, maybe because I am pretty laid back about clothing in general. DD has gone through very girly phases (the tutu phase, and the wearing authentic colonial dress everywhere phase) and more tomboyish phases (jeans always, please, no sparkles, or the rock star phase, which is also usually jeans and a lot of black), and from a very young age, she has announced, "I'm So-and-So," who might be a cartoon character or a book character or a Star Wars character she created herself or who knows what else. I will humor it at home but generally insist upon legal name in public, and I'd probably assume that anything was a phase in the toddler and preschooler years. I probably just wouldn't make a big deal out of it until and unless it continued for several years.

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Lol, but in all seriousness, it isn't hurting anything to let the kid be a cat. I mean, I'd draw the line at the child doing things that could be physically harmful, like eating canned cat food or something, but if my kid decides she's a cat and wants to crawl around, meow, and sleep on the floor, it's not hurting me any.

You might be surprised at how many problems it can cause! Kitty wants to crawl through the grocery store on all fours, kitty wants to give baby brother a tongue bath...

 

Around here it's usually the babies and toddlers who go for the cat food though.

 

Sorry for the derail :D

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La Condessa, you don't know they're transgender when they're young. The proper term is "gender nonconforming." And humoring it, as others have said, does the child no harm. If it's just a phase/exploration, they'll outgrow it as they get older. The important thing is to make it clear to the child that you respect and support their budding identity no matter what it is. Don't shame them for not conforming to cultural constructs of gender, and don't make a big deal of it, any more than you would their favorite color. Just let them be themselves.

 

If there is body dysphoria going on, I'd get a child in to therapy with a gender therapist very young if needs be. If gender nonconforming behavior persisted into school age, I'd get a child into therapy with a gender therapist because even with support for being oneself at home, peer pressure can cause immense negative hits to self esteem for a nonconforming kid, and professional support can help a child develop coping strategies and work through their feelings.

 

Social transition is generally all that is done ever for strongly transgender-seeming kids, at least until puberty. Social transition is as easy to UNDO as it is to do in the first place.

 

For some, hormone blockers to delay puberty can help them cope with physical dysphoria, but isn't appropriate for every nonconforming child--something parents and professionals know. Those who don't seem to get highly offended and irate about when they hear about it, as if such a decision is made on the fly without serious consideration of all the pros, cons, benefits, and risks. Of course it isn't!  

 

Finally, if I named my kid Shiloh, I'd probably humor a nickname like "John" but in the long run encourage returning to Shiloh, which is a perfectly good name for a person of ANY gender. My answer to that would be different if the child's given name was clearly gendered, like "Suzie."

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This is an eight year old we're talking about, with a strong gender identity. 

If you wouldn't question your own child's gender identity, then don't question this child's either.

 

To be clear, I don't mean at age 8.  I'd say even if at age 8 a child has had a clear identity as the opposite gender for 5 years, that situation is more clear, though personally I'd probably still want a child to wait until puberty to make sure it wasn't a phase.  Clearly, if they are making this public after five years they feel something shifted too.

 

 

I am only asking about the initial decision at the age of three.

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I saw the article on Facebook and googled, it appeared as if Angelina explained the whole family has been calling Shiloh John since the age of three, and are only now making it public.  She did refer to the child as "Her" and also said something to the effect of "this is probably rather obnoxious to anyone but parents."  It seemed pretty balanced and loving, just not the way I would have instinctively handled it, which is why I wondered what everyone else here thought.

 

I'm not sure if we're talking about the same article, the one from "kpopstarz".  I don't know what the rules are for linking here, but the article I'm looking at makes the statement that says something like previously, Angelina has revealed that Shiloh wants to be called John.  But the link that supports that statement is to an article from 2010 (when Shiloh was 4) where Angelina says, essentially that Shiloh likes wearing boys clothing, that she went through a phase when she liked to be called John (in 2010 this was described in the past tense like it was a phase that was already finished), and that she enjoys being with her brothers.  Angelina also repeated refers to Shiloh as "she/her" in the quote, and asks that people not over interpret.

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Lol, but in all seriousness, it isn't hurting anything to let the kid be a cat. I mean, I'd draw the line at the child doing things that could be physically harmful, like eating canned cat food or something, but if my kid decides she's a cat and wants to crawl around, meow, and sleep on the floor, it's not hurting me any.

My daughter actually did this for a year and a half, and still does sometimes. I frequently called her Sadie Kitty, at her request. Just the same, I might call one of my kids another name if they wanted. But I would treat it as a game, just as I did with the kitty game. I wouldn't affirm it as part of their personal identity.

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There's an article trending on facebook about how Shiloh Pitt claimed she was a boy and wanted to be called John since she was 3. They've honored her request at home, and have only recently made her request public.

 

Personally, I'm a little surprised by this. I had tomboy friends growing up (most of which had a lot of brothers) who became very girly once they hit puberty, and don't have gender identity issues now. I think I'd lean towards saying, "I love you very much, but you were born a girl (and explain body differences). Sometimes when people grow up they decide they want to be a boy instead of a girl, or a girl instead of a boy, but that's not really something you should not decide until you grow up. If when you're all grown up you still want to be a boy we'll talk about that then."

 

But all these articles are acting as if it's very good and brave of them to humor the request of a three year old, who I can't imagine even understands the difference between boys and girls.

 

Am I totally off base for thinking a child should wait? FWIW, none of my kids seem to have these issues, I'm just curious.

 

A couple thoughts: First, the child is no longer three. John is 8 (?). So it's no longer the request of a 3 year old who is still figuring out gender, but an 8 year old, who is approaching puberty, and possibly not feeling at home in his body. And five years (someone mentioned 8 years old, I don't care enough to google to verify) is an awful long "phase."

Secondly, I recognize that I may just be arguing semantics, but it's not a matter of "deciding" to be the opposite gender, or of "wanting" to be a boy vs a girl. It's not a choice; it's part of who you are. I think many (some?) trans people, at least in the beginning, may wish they felt like their biological sex. Life would certainly be a lot easier if what you felt inside matched your outward appearance and sex organs.

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But but but but

 

this child is not three now. She is eight. She shouldn't be treated like a 3yo who is playing at being a cat when she is an 8yo who has been living one way at home for five years and now wants to be that person "out loud" everywhere she goes, and her parents are telling the world in as low-key a way as possible, "Just so you know...."

 

I think we should all mind our own business.

 

And if this does not turn out to be a permanent decision for her, and Shiloh Pitt, the female bombshell, emerges as a Hollywood ingenue in 10 years, we shouldn't have a huge opinion about that, either.

 

 

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To be clear, I don't mean at age 8.  I'd say even if at age 8 a child has had a clear identity as the opposite gender for 5 years, that situation is more clear, though personally I'd probably still want a child to wait until puberty to make sure it wasn't a phase.  Clearly, if they are making this public after five years they feel something shifted too.

 

 

I am only asking about the initial decision at the age of three.

 

It looks to me like they made the right call.  What is the alternative, insisting she keep long hair and dress in pink?    I think it would be a lot more difficult for male-to-female.  Girls can wear anything.

 

Comparing it to wanting to be a cat...... well, clearly, most 3 year olds are just weird creatures overall.  But if the implication is that they artificially pushed a normal child to abnormality by overindulgence, I just don't think it's the case.  Kids who aren't transgendered (like almost all kids - like just about every here's kids) don't go through anywhere near the kind of analysis and tough conversations that I'm sure little Shiloh/John has gone through.  And we don't question that.  

 

I respect the parents for being child-directed here, it's got to be hard.  They clearly aren't shy about publicity but this is almost uncharted territory about one of their kids. I guess there is Chastity/Chaz Bono.

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A couple thoughts: First, the child is no longer three. John is 8 (?). So it's no longer the request of a 3 year old who is still figuring out gender, but an 8 year old, who is approaching puberty, and possibly not feeling at home in his body. And five years (someone mentioned 8 years old, I don't care enough to google to verify) is an awful long "phase." Secondly, I recognize that I may just be arguing semantics, but it's not a matter of "deciding" to be the opposite gender, or of "wanting" to be a boy vs a girl. It's not a choice; it's part of who you are. I think many (some?) trans people, at least in the beginning, may wish they felt like their biological sex. Life would certainly be a lot easier if what you felt inside matched your outward appearance and sex organs.

 

Except for the fact that the article isn't supported by any information other than a couple photos of a child wearing boys clothing, and 2 quotes, one from when Shiloh was 4, and one when she was 2.  

 

I agree with everything you say about gender being part of who someone is.  I also agree that an 8 year old knows who they are.  But I think that speculating about a child's gender based on the fact that they wore a tie to a movie is out of line.  I can't find anything where Shiloh's parents or Shiloh herself have said that she is a he, or that she continues to identify as John.  Given that, I think that the most respectful thing is to continue to call Shiloh by the name and the pronouns that her parents use.

 

I say this as someone who wouldn't have a problem referring to a FTM transgender child by a masculine name, or the pronouns He or Him.  

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Wouldn't bother me in the least. I have always allowed my kids to wear what they want as long as it is appropriate within reason. So, you can wear a skirt or pants, but you need something on your bottom. Both boys went through a phase of wearing dresses etc when they were 3-6 or 7 and then it faded away. FWIW, they also dressed up as ninjas and princes and pirates and space aliens, so it was more of an imaginary play thing. They were and are extremely imaginative people and still love to write stories and plays and make movies etc.

 

I have known a couple people who renamed themselves at a very young age. Not many, but a few. And it wasn't a different gender, but it was a different name, and they were all quite firm in the matter. One is a niece. She announced when she was three that she was meant to have a different name and she refused to answer to the old one. She is now almost 20 and still uses her chosen name.

 

If my kid made that request I would honor it and just deal with it. I would not expect that it told me a whole lot about who they will be when they are older.  We would cross that bridge when we got to it.

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Whoa whoa whoa.

 

I don't think gender identity is a choice.

 

I'm not criticizing the Jolie-Pitt family.

 

I'm not even specifically talking about Shiloh/John now.

 

My only question was what do you do when your child is three.  Three.  Three.

 

Older ages are clearly a very different situation.

 

 

ETA:  FWIW, I wonder about this because my parents were SO concerned with being supportive, they never waited to see if something was a phase.  They decided phases were who I was, down to my mom telling my college interviewer that my career goal was what I said I wanted to be in fifth grade.  So even though I have no gender identity issues (much of my girlfriends think I am too girly), I probably do have a tendency to assume anything a child is going through is a phase rather than an identity.  I never thought of phases as something I was over-correcting in my own parenting until I read that article this morning.   Just checking my own point of view, not criticizing anything. 

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I voted the first option, but I've also found I have a bit more difficulty actually tacking gender topics than I believed I would.  Dh and I have always talked about gender identity and/or homosexuality in a "what if" way, and we just want our kids to be happy.

 

So, the other day my 7yo comes up to me and tells me he can't figure out whether he's a boy or a girl.  Well, this instance seemed to revolve around connecting certain emotional issues as "girly things", so I'm not convinced there's much more to it than the well-known fact that he just happens to be very connected to his feminine side, but who really knows?
Anyway, I was taken off guard and not sure it really necessitated a big conversation, so I just told him girls don't have penises.  It was the first thing that popped into my head, he seemed satisfied with the response, and I don't think it was a big thing, but I'm still kind of disappointed in my response.  :001_huh:

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But how do you know they feel they're transgender? I think many, many children mistake social constructs attached to gender for innate gender characteristics. I know that was the case with me, when I went through a time when I decided I wanted to be a boy, and called myself a boy's name. I saw that girls had dumb, garishly pink toys and all of the girls at school seemed to be superficial and obsessed with fads and boys. I loved horses, dogs, camping, hiking, reading--I decided I wasn't like the other girls and didn't want to be. But there is nothing innately feminine or masculine in those things. I as a child was just too young to recognize that.

 

This is the same question dh asked at our very first IEP. "How do you know ds is autistic? All these behaviors you're talking about, I see them everywhere. What makes him autistic but not me, not you?" When certain things are identified by traits of common behaviors, it can be difficult to know where to draw a line, or even decide if a line for drawing is appropriate. I think in general, when these behaviors indicate an underlying distress, we can assume there's something biological going on. Some behaviors function as make-shift solutions to an overwhelming problem. That's how I see it anyway, so identifying as a different gender in play or for comfort as opposed to trying to rid oneself of a pervasive distress is where I would consider "that's how you know." Cue a professional familiar with body dysphoria to see if that's the case, and if so, the best course of action for the well-being of the child.

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La Condessa, you don't know they're transgender when they're young. The proper term is "gender nonconforming." And humoring it, as others have said, does the child no harm. If it's just a phase/exploration, they'll outgrow it as they get older. The important thing is to make it clear to the child that you respect and support their budding identity no matter what it is. Don't shame them for not conforming to cultural constructs of gender, and don't make a big deal of it, any more than you would their favorite color. Just let them be themselves.

 

If there is body dysphoria going on, I'd get a child in to therapy with a gender therapist very young if needs be. If gender nonconforming behavior persisted into school age, I'd get a child into therapy with a gender therapist because even with support for being oneself at home, peer pressure can cause immense negative hits to self esteem for a nonconforming kid, and professional support can help a child develop coping strategies and work through their feelings.

 

Social transition is generally all that is done ever for strongly transgender-seeming kids, at least until puberty. Social transition is as easy to UNDO as it is to do in the first place.

 

For some, hormone blockers to delay puberty can help them cope with physical dysphoria, but isn't appropriate for every nonconforming child--something parents and professionals know. Those who don't seem to get highly offended and irate about when they hear about it, as if such a decision is made on the fly without serious consideration of all the pros, cons, benefits, and risks. Of course it isn't!  

 

Finally, if I named my kid Shiloh, I'd probably humor a nickname like "John" but in the long run encourage returning to Shiloh, which is a perfectly good name for a person of ANY gender. My answer to that would be different if the child's given name was clearly gendered, like "Suzie."

I think I was considering my own children's names when I said I wouldn't call them by a different name.  DD is Aubrey which used to be a boys name anyway and we call her Aub or Bee.  DS is Alex so gender neutral.  I guess if I'd named my daughter Susan and she wanted to be called Shawn..... I'd still mess it up at least 1/2 the time, the other 1/2 I'd call them by their siblings name (I do that already).

 

ETA: I really think there is a difference between a child saying they are a different gender at the age of 2-4 then a child who says it at 6-8.  I remember wishing I was a boy (like my cousins) when I was four and only wishing I could pee standing up when I was 6 (really didn't want to have to go in the house).  So since the OP asked about a 3 year old I have to say I'd do the same thing as I would if my son wants to wear Camo 24/7 or a pink dress.... sure, if it's appropriate for the situation and it's clean.  Calling them by another name or referring to them as a he when they were born a she?  Probably not at 3.  At 8? Yes, I would.

 

Also, I don't think this conversation is about Shiloh/John so much as our understanding of a situation that parents can and have faced, Shiloh/John is just an example and what started the OP's foray into her own understanding and introspection.  

 

Conversations like this are good to have they help us with our understanding and acceptance of people with different ideas and situations.  I don't consider it gossip to try to figure out how you would handle a similar situation.  

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Thing is, I've known a three year old who adamantly insisted, for quite some time, that she was a cat. She crawled around on all fours and meowed at everyone and wanted to be treated like a cat. Even tried to eat like a cat.

 

Maybe she really thought she was a cat.

 

She was three. She is no longer three. She is no longer a cat (though she still likes cats).

 

A three year old is above all a three year old.

 

I know you're being light hearted here, and I know everyone else knows it and you don't mean anything else by it, but for some reason this bothers me. I think it's because while you're making light of this idea, I'm looking at this from the point of view of a child who is in considerable emotional distress (not Shiloh necessarily, but in general). It feels to me like joking about autism and suggesting someone just needs a good lickin' and that'll fix him. I know you're not suggesting anything mean like that, and I hope this doesn't come across the wrong way, and I'm only picking on you because I trust you'll understand I don't mean this about *you* but about this *idea* that you just happen to be the first to articulate in this discussion. And perhaps I'm pointing it out because it is such a common idea, and it is such a difficult scenario for not only the child, but the family, and ultimately society in general.

 

It raises all kinds of ethical questions for me. Let's say Shiloh wants to identify as a boy because his brain isn't producing enough testosterone. Let's say medical practice can offer a drug that inspires just enough manufacture of testosterone, or synthetic testosterone to get the brain back into typical function. Sort of like a gender-hormonal equivalent of thyroid hormone replacement therapy. Is it ethical for the parents to do that to a child in hopes of avoiding potential social difficulties and trauma, or is the ethical response to work towards a culture that accepts non traditional gender options so the individual is free to express him/herself as they desire? Which preserves the right of the child, or the right of society as a whole better? How do we determine what the rights of the child even is?

 

And also, do we only go by our own experiences when determining the legitimacy of challenges others face? I find that problematic not only in a practical setting, but also with regards to compassion and subsequent responses to such issues (which in turn are related to my question above - how do we determine the superior ethical choice?).

 

So joking about pretending to be a cat in the midst of a conversation that is real for some people seems, I don't know, like trivializing or mocking a serious issue maybe. Or am I being a downer because no one is expecting this conversation to get so serious?

 

But again, I don't think for a moment you mean to trivialize or mock the pain of a child. I don't think so at all. I just wonder if these kinds of jokes are ultimately insensitive (and therefore mean?), and if so, when do people stand up and say, "yeah, let's not." 

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I answered OP's question about a hypothetical 3yo since I knew nothing about the Pitt family.

 

I went to read more and Good Grief! Shiloh wears a suit to a movie premiere and tabloids pull up interviews from 6 years ago, change her pronouns, change her name, and announce that she is trans. Blech!

 

Her parents seem incredibly supportive. You couldn't pay me enough to raise my kids under that type of scrutiny...

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I know you're being light hearted here, and I know everyone else knows it and you don't mean anything else by it, but for some reason this bothers me. I think it's because while you're making light of this idea, I'm looking at this from the point of view of a child who is in considerable emotional distress (not Shiloh necessarily, but in general). It feels to me like joking about autism and suggesting someone just needs a good lickin' and that'll fix him. I know you're not suggesting anything mean like that, and I hope this doesn't come across the wrong way, and I'm only picking on you because I trust you'll understand I don't mean this about *you* but about this *idea* that you just happen to be the first to articulate in this discussion. And perhaps I'm pointing it out because it is such a common idea, and it is such a difficult scenario for not only the child, but the family, and ultimately society in general.

 

It raises all kinds of ethical questions for me. Let's say Shiloh wants to identify as a boy because his brain isn't producing enough testosterone. Let's say medical practice can offer a drug that inspires just enough manufacture of testosterone, or synthetic testosterone to get the brain back into typical function. Sort of like a gender-hormonal equivalent of thyroid hormone replacement therapy. Is it ethical for the parents to do that to a child in hopes of avoiding potential social difficulties and trauma, or is the ethical response to work towards a culture that accepts non traditional gender options so the individual is free to express him/herself as they desire? Which preserves the right of the child, or the right of society as a whole better? How do we determine what the rights of the child even is?

 

And also, do we only go by our own experiences when determining the legitimacy of challenges others face? I find that problematic not only in a practical setting, but also with regards to compassion and subsequent responses to such issues (which in turn are related to my question above - how do we determine the superior ethical choice?).

 

So joking about pretending to be a cat in the midst of a conversation that is real for some people seems, I don't know, like trivializing or mocking a serious issue maybe. Or am I being a downer because no one is expecting this conversation to get so serious?

 

But again, I don't think for a moment you mean to trivialize or mock the pain of a child. I don't think so at all. I just wonder if these kinds of jokes are ultimately insensitive (and therefore mean?), and if so, when do people stand up and say, "yeah, let's not." 

 

Mmm, I get what you are saying but the thread was meant to address a fairly generic "how would you respond to a three year old who says they want to be..." sort of question. If you look at my initial response, you will see I specified that I would need to know the actual child to really know how to respond. The case of a child who is experiencing real distress over a long period of time is quite different from the child who just thinks it would be nice to be something different--boy, girl, cat, horse. But the majority of three year olds expressing such a desire would I think fall into the second category. How many of us here have known or have been a young child who said they wanted to be  the opposite gender--or something else entirely? Most were not experiencing real gender identity issues, they were just...being kids. I don't think a reminder that kids, ordinary kids, say and do these kinds of things is inappropriate.

 

To use the autism analogy, it would not be appropriate for every parent whose child demonstrated some autism like behaviors to decide that child has autism and start to structure the child's entire life around that assumption. A reminder that many, many children exhibit some of these behaviors at one time or another is not out of order.

 

A reminder such as yours that in some cases the matter is much more serious is of course also not inappropriate.

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more than likely it's not 'gender identity' so much as seeing what the other side is doing and thinking it looks fun.  it's a phase, and if you treat it as such, doesn't last.

 

 even my niece (comes from a very liberal family) - who at 11 said she was a lesbian becasue "she didn't like boys" (honey, you're 11.  boys are *supposed* to be icky), went to reed, married a man.

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more than likely it's not 'gender identity' so much as seeing what the other side is doing and thinking it looks fun.  it's a phase, and if you treat it as such, doesn't last.

 

 even my niece (comes from a very liberal family) - who at 11 said she was a lesbian becasue "she didn't like boys" (honey, you're 11.  boys are *supposed* to be icky), went to reed, married a man.

 

These lines of reasoning don't make sense to me. Five years (in Shiloh/John's case) is not a phase. Also, when I was eleven I didn't know boys were supposed to be icky, because I'd been boy crazy for five years at that point (also not a phase).

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I really feel as though giving any attention to that article, which shamelessly takes advantage of a young child to get web traffic, is wrong.  So, I wish we could have this conversation in a separate thread, but I'll answer.

 

If my 3 year old came to me and said that he wanted to be called Mary and wear dresses, I'd humor him and call him Mary when I remembered, and his real name when I forgot, and maybe buy him a dress or two at the thrift store to dress up in, but I'd also still refer to him as "he" and have a mix of toys (baby dolls, and trains, and legos, and art supplies and lots of books with male and female heroes).  

 

If my 3 year old expressed consistent distress about his body, to the point that it was interfering with his happiness on a regular basis, I'd get professional help, and might well begin a gentle process of exploring whether a transition made sense for him.  I would imagine that this would be a process that would take years.  

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There's an article trending on facebook about how Shiloh Pitt claimed she was a boy and wanted to be called John since she was 3.  They've honored her request at home, and have only recently made her request public.

 

Personally, I'm a little surprised by this.  I had tomboy friends growing up (most of which had a lot of brothers) who became very girly once they hit puberty, and don't have gender identity issues now.  I think I'd lean towards saying, "I love you very much, but you were born a girl (and explain body differences).  Sometimes when people grow up they decide they want to be a boy instead of a girl, or a girl instead of a boy, but that's not really something you should not decide until you grow up.  If when you're all grown up you still want to be a boy we'll talk about that then."

 

But all these articles are acting as if it's very good and brave of them to humor the request of a three year old, who I can't imagine even understands the difference between boys and girls.

 

Am I totally off base for thinking a child should wait?  FWIW, none of my kids seem to have these issues, I'm just curious.

Yeah, that's whacked.

 

I grew up with dozens of "tomboys" and was myself one for a period of time, probably around 8 or 9, when I cared much more about climbing trees and playing with the boys next door than I did about girly stuff.

 

No issues here.  I think parents need to leave it alone and treat such talk as the fantasy it is (99% of the time). 

 

I'd respond exactly the same way as if a young child told me, "I'm a bear, Mommy!  Look at me growl!" 

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It's interesting to me that this child is not one of the adopted children.  I say this because Angelina Jolie has had a troubled past with mental health issues and drug abuse.  My first thought is that the child may also have some mental health issues.  Preferring not to be a girly-girl isn't a mental illness, of course!, but I wonder if there's a genetic tendency to mental illness in this child, too.  

 

As a mother, I would not force a girl to wear dresses or have long hair if this isn't comfortable for her.  But I would not honor a name change in a child.  My dd uses a shortened form of her given name, not a boy's name.  

 

In this particular family, I'm sure there's been confusion.   If you have children who were supposedly begging their parents to get married, then it's quite likely that the parents are ambiguous on a variety of other things and are unable or unwilling to provide structure that young children crave.   I believe that parents are supposed to guide their children,  not reinforce their confusion.   

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I think that Angelina and Brad are in the best position to know what is going on with their child. Outsiders are clueless and as a child of celebrity, Shiloh/John is a story for ratings without concern for the child's well being. If journalists cared even a lick about this child, it would not be a "story".

 

For children who truly have gender identity issues, it's a lot deeper than "tomboy". I applaud them for doing whatever they believe is in the best interests of their child. Given that they've been VERY careful to safeguard their children's privacy and appear to have a strong, family unit, I'd say that if they ask people to refer to Shiloh as John, then it should be honored as not likely a "whim".

 

Having grown up with a classmate who was male mentally but presented as x externally, I can tell you that the hardwiring of society to force a child who is brain wise/internally different from their exterior is torturous, and my classmate committed suicide at a young age after multiple attempts starting at age 8 due to the parents unrelenting desire to force conformity. What happened to the family after that tragedy. It.was.gut-wrenching and ended with another sibling committing suicide out of guilt over his part in forcing his sister to present as a girl and not a boy. Two suicides in the family and another sib messed up by what happened, and two parents who could never get on the same page ending up hating each other with the fire of a thousand suns. That's the white washed version. It's actually worse than that.

 

Respect John (Shiloh). Respect the family. As an outsider reading nothing more than a story designed to "get ratings" there is no conclusion you can draw about this being a phase or the parents being off base.

 

 

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