Shiloh Pitt & very young children with gender identity issues

[Tanaqui]

I was not addressing YOU as not Christian.  I'm just saying that it is mighty convenient to play, "Blame the conservative Christian parents" in cases like this. 

 

If a kid kills himself whose parents are not Christian, then we don't blame the parents.    That doesn't go unnoticed.

 

We do if the parents say devaluing things like "you're wrong" and "God doesn't make mistakes" and apparently has no objection to bringing the child to so-called "therapy" that includes saying that the child is "selfish". We do if their response to depression is to isolate the child from their social network.

 

[Tanaqui]

 

You have absolutely no idea what the counseling consisted of in this case,and are merely speculating.  There are Christian counselors all over the board.  In fact, our own resident counselor states how unprofessional it would be to not be able to counsel everyone because of personal beliefs, so I think you should extend that same respect to other counselors, if indeed they were professional counselors.  We just don't know. 

 

We DO know that he- and yes, it is a HE, a male child, a son - was seriously pissed because the parents would not agree to drugs and surgery at SIXTEEN, and that was the precipitating event in the spiral downward.  

 

You also don't know exactly how long they had to get used to this abject rejection on every front of their core values.  He hated church because they didn't enthusiastically embrace the sexuality he wants embraced.  He hated his parents (the whole "f my parents thing" was detailed) because as Christians, they found this whole thing perplexing, embarrassing,  and troubling and addressed it in the way they knew to do so.  

 

He hated his former friends, who apparently weren't real friends because they didn't stick around (common with teens anyway).  He got into a dark place and listened to those voices in his head instead of other voices.

 

 

You clearly didn't read the actual posting, so let's address - again - what it said.

 

1. We know what went down in "therapy" not because we are "speculating" but because she actually said that this is what was said.

 

2. We know that her friends stuck around because after she came out about being LGBT (not actually coming out about being trans, but about being gay) they didn't reject her and THEN the parents isolated her from her social group.

 

3. We know that they had a minimum of 366 days to "get used to" reality because she came out to them at 14 and killed herself at 16.

 

4. Additionally, we know that you, personally, are a massive hypocrite. How DARE you say snidely in one comment that it is ridiculous that ones gender is "their whole life" while in every other comment you refuse to accept it! If you think it is so unimportant, then act like it and respect her wishes! Or, if it IS important, then you must understand why a teenager might consider acceptance of her gender "her whole life". You can NOT hold both arguments at once. It is hypocritical.

 

5. Finally, once again, there is no evidence that she suggested surgery. However, drugs to delay puberty are extremely common at this age, and are useless after puberty. Use some freaking logic.

 

Edit: Point 6 - unless your child killed herself over that stupid jacket, you are being so offensive I can't even. This girl killed herself. I'm going to show her the respect of assuming she wasn't just "oh so emotional" but that she actually knew what was going on in her life - unlike you.

 

[Tanaqui]

Yeah, ok.  99.9999 percent of the time, there is a high correlation, shall we say. 

 

We actually don't know what percentage of Americans are transgender for a number of reasons, but our best estimates range from about .3% to .1%. Even with the smaller number, that's several orders of magnitude greater than the number you suggest.

 

And sure, there's a correlation for most people. What of it? That's not normal, it's just common, as the expression goes.

[Scarlett]

Scarlett, I hope for their sake that your kids are straight and Cisgender, because it's obvious if they aren't they'll be at terrible risk. Transgender youth have a 40% chance of attempting suicide if it goes untreated and they go unsupported. With proper, qualified counseling and family support, that scary number goes down to the average. That young woman is dead because her parents were close minded and wildly deaf to her cries for help. They decided denial would make her problems go away. It doesn't work that way. They made it worse, not better.

 

I'm fortunate that my parents, while Christians, were respectful of my need to find my own way in the world, and if I'd told them I needed professional help, would have gotten me that help, even if they didn't understand or thought it was a phase.

 

These parents left their child trapped in her own negative thinking and hopelessness, and she died. They lost their son long before this child took her own life. They threw the daughter they could have had away.

 

Denial doesn't change that.

I hope my kids are straight too. I am not in denial that my son is his own person and may make choices that I disagree with. I am not the unkind and unloving mother you might think.

[LucyStoner]

I am perhaps the last person on this board that anyone would expect to defend the parents of Leelah Alcorn but that is exactly what I am going to do.

 

They have lost a child. Their child is DEAD. I can't even fathom that and looking at my sons, one curled up with a book and the other playing Zelda, it literally brings tears to my eyes to think of losing either one of them. Whatever went on, whatever they did or said or the kinds of counsellors they put their trust in, their child is dead and there is perhaps nothing more difficult to face than the loss of one's children.

 

No matter how accepting and understanding the parents are, trans teens still often struggle with depression and a sadly high number of them have suicidal thoughts and one or more attempts on their lives. My parents did not send my brother is any bs counseling. They DID tell him they loved him regardless but it was still a struggle. My brother often reacted to small things they said or did in a very reactive, inflammatory and unwise way (as any teen might when struggling) and his "side of the story" wasn't precisely reality. He was very sensitive, to the point where even well meaning things were taken as large slights. He was suicidal and was at serious risk for a long time. He developed a serious eating disorder. Ultimately, he came to live with me when he was about 16, almost 17. They all needed distance from each other for a time. I certainly wasn't unkind or unfair or unaccepting and he still struggled for a long time. Caregivers of suicidally depressed people are in a hard spot and while their child needed help, they probably needed help too. Help that is very hard to come by, especially if they have placed their trust in biased, bigoted or uneducated people motivated by ideology.

 

I am not saying these parents are innocent. I can't however assume that this one letter tells the full or only truth. And I can't judge parents who are grieving the loss of a 16 year old child. If we stop and think about it, we really can't know where they were and more importantly *where they would have gone*. They will not get the chance to adjust, accept and rebuild a relationship with their child. That can easily take more than a year or two. They have lost so much. In my view they are probably just as much a victim of the social pressures to conform to an immutable binary gender paradigm as their child was. They learned their rigid and inflexible thinking and for whatever reason didn't have the ability at this time to let it go but even if they had, even if they had been accepting and affirming, it is still possible that their child would have been suicidal. Most tragically they seemed to have bought into the idea that they could control or force their child to change. That's a pervasive and damaging myth that hurts them right alongside their child.

[Tsuga]

I think most of us feel horrible for the parents. Nobody is blaming them. It is specific actions that need to stop. Most of us understand that there is a culture that encouraged their behavior which is bigger than all of us.

 

And that is the culture that I think people are opposing. It's not a Christian culture. It's a bigoted culture.

 

The argument was more about whether the child's decisions were affected by the parents' behavior. I think they were. That doesn't mean I don't have sympathy for them as well. I can't imagine what they must feel now.

 

 

[Tsuga]

 

I don't see anyone here saying that they are glad this kid is dead or that he doesn't deserve love.

 

I didn't say that you said those things.

 

You made fun of her suicide note.

 

I mean how messed up is that? Can you not see that making fun of a suicide note is just plain horrible?

[Mergath]

Nothing I said was inaccurate.  I summarized what he said and did, in a way that some will not appreciate. 

 

I was not addressing YOU as not Christian.  I'm just saying that it is mighty convenient to play, "Blame the conservative Christian parents" in cases like this. 

 

If a kid kills himself whose parents are not Christian, then we don't blame the parents.    That doesn't go unnoticed. 

 

That says far more about the harm fundamentalist Christian legalism causes when imposed upon children than it does about some perceived prejudice against Christians.  

[texasmama]

I am not saying these parents are innocent. I can't however assume that this one letter tells the full or only truth. And I can't judge parents who are grieving the loss of a 16 year old child. If we stop and think about it, we really can't know where they were and more importantly *where they would have gone*. They will not get the chance to adjust, accept and rebuild a relationship with their child. That can easily take more than a year or two. They have lost so much. In my view they are probably just as much a victim of the social pressures to conform to a binary and immutable binary gender paradigm as their child was. They learned their rigid and inflexible thinking and for whatever reason didn't have the ability at this time to let it go but even if they had, even if they had been accepting and affirming, it is still possible that their child would have been suicidal. Most tragically they seemed to have bought into the idea that they could control or force their child to change. That's a pervasive and damaging myth that hurts them right alongside their child.

I appreciated your entire post, but I thought this part needed to be highlighted.  In spite of my professional training and love and care and attempts to be accepting and supporting, some of my kids have had struggles, one somewhat serious struggles.  I suspect that these parents are suffering greatly.  I cannot imagine that they would not be.

 

I also know as a therapist that I cringed when reading the parts of the letter referring to therapy.  Maybe it is completely accurate and "You are selfish" came out of a therapist's mouth, but that may have been what was felt rather than what was stated.  Also, as others have stated "Christian therapist" can mean a lot of things.  So I reserve judgment on the "therapists", as well, because maybe they were doing lay counseling at the family's church.  No one can tell from that letter. 

 

It is very, very sad and tragic what this child went through, and the ultimate loss of a life. 

[LucyStoner]

Would it have killed them to say "We love you no matter what and will always accept you for who you are?"

 

Because not saying it killed her.

 

 

Even if they did say it, it may not have saved her life. There are parents who tried to accept, tried to love, tried to understand who are grieving their dead LGBTQ children.

[Tsuga]

 

There are parents who tried to accept, tried to love, tried to understand who are grieving their dead LGBTQ children.

 

That is true. Fair enough. But, this person had absolutely nobody who was reaching her. I am aware that MANY young people suffer from depression-of all backgrounds.

 

In this case, however, the fact that the young person was repeatedly sent to therapy to change her, really makes me question whether an attitude of acceptance could have made a big difference.

 

That is not to say I blame them in the sense that I hold them responsible. Sometimes, we don't know. And ultimately yes, it was her choice to kill herself.

 

But--refusing to let her reach out is huge.

[Joanne]

You have absolutely no idea what the counseling consisted of in this case,and are merely speculating.  There are Christian counselors all over the board.  In fact, our own resident counselor states how unprofessional it would be to not be able to counsel everyone because of personal beliefs, so I think you should extend that same respect to other counselors, if indeed they were professional counselors.  We just don't kn

 

Since you called me (I assume, there are others) out, let me tell you the ethics on this one. The ethics that a licensed, trained, qualified professional would have to follow.

 

Trans issues represent a specialty. Perhaps even a super specialty. We are supposed to treat within our trained scope. I consider myself very informed regarding sexual minorities. Especially for the area of the metro city I live in. Even so, I would not feel comfortable or appropriately trained to treat trans issues if the trans was the presenting issue. I would refer out. And it's also "on me" to make sure I find and have appropriate professionals to refer the client to. (Which I do should the situation present.)

 

I do feel I could treat sexual minorities (and, indeed, have) if the presenting problem isn't regarding their LBGTQ status.

 

These "counselors" failed in that regard.

[texasmama]

Since you called me (I assume, there are others) out, let me tell you the ethics on this one. The ethics that a licensed, trained, qualified professional would have to follow.

 

Trans issues represent a specialty. Perhaps even a super specialty. We are supposed to treat within our trained scope. I consider myself very informed regarding sexual minorities. Especially for the area of the metro city I live in. Even so, I would not feel comfortable or appropriately trained to treat trans issues if the trans was the presenting issue. I would refer out. And it's also "on me" to make sure I find and have appropriate professionals to refer the client to. (Which I do should the situation present.)

 

I do feel I could treat sexual minorities (and, indeed, have) if the presenting problem isn't regarding their LBGTQ status.

 

These "counselors" failed in that regard.

I agree.  I would refer out, as well, just as I would for a client who presented with an eating disorder as the primary issue.  That is a specialty, and I am not experienced enough to ethically treat it.

[Joanne]

I agree.  I would refer out, as well, just as I would for a client who presented with an eating disorder as the primary issue.  That is a specialty, and I am not experienced enough to ethically treat it.

 

Yes, I was thinking about that on the way home (from a private practice appointment ;)). I have referred out eating disordered as the primary issue.

 

I frankly wish more professionals would refer out substance abuse - because it is a crap shoot on whether they are *really* qualified to treat.

[Ravin]

Except that this probably never happened at all, but was merely what this kid PERCEIVED from anything less than enthusiastic approval.

 

Do you have teens? If you do, then you know that what you say is not what they hear about half the time.

 

One real-life example from a couple of years ago:

 

Me: The temperature really dropped today, so you should probably take a hoodie with you.

 

Emotional teen: YOU THINK I AM STUPID! YOU THINK I CANNOT FIGURE OUT WHAT TO WEAR! YOU NEVER UNDERSTAND ME! YOU WILL NEVER LET ME DO WHAT I WANT! YOU PROBABLY WON'T LET ME GO TO COLLEGE! YOU WILL HAVE TO MAKE SURE I'M WEARING A COAT! (ON AND ON -AND THIS ONE IS STUDYING OVERSEAS AT THE MOMENT, SO YEAH....)

 

Me, to myself: Whoa...what just happened there....?

 

Typical exchange with teen girls from like 14-16. Thank the LORD that is mostly over these days.

 

So, this kid in his weird, depressed state may well have not seen things as they really are. The parents could have been as calm as could be. We don't know. He just didn't get what he wanted IMMEDIATELY, so screw everyone, he thought (in his depressed state).

They should have gotten her treatment with aa legitimate counselor with experience dealing with gender issues. Instead they isolated her and persistently denied her identity. What I said to Scarlett goes for you, too. I pray you don't have a gay or trans kid so you don't have an opportunity to do them harm.

[texasmama]

Yes, I was thinking about that on the way home (from a private practice appointment ;)). I have referred out eating disordered as the primary issue.

 

I frankly wish more professionals would refer out substance abuse - because it is a crap shoot on whether they are *really* qualified to treat.

I would refer out primary substance abuse, too.  ;)

 

It is difficult to be good at everything so I never tried.  :)  I know my strengths, and I stick to them.  I even strongly prefer to refer out couples.  I just don't have enough experience or training to be an expert in couples counseling, and I have reached expert status with other populations so I prefer to stick to those rather than focus on enlarging my practice expertise during this phase of my professional life when I am doing such limited practice.  My energy is going largely elsewhere at this point.  :)

 

I could ethically treat a sexual minority, though I might refer out a young teen whose primary issue was seeking answers around sexual preference issues (due to lack of training and experience).  It would depend on the situation and the surrounding issues.  I would prefer to refer out rather than unintentionally botch treatment at such a pivotal stage of a person's life around such an important issue.

 

But I would never accept a client and spend time trying to change the client in fundamental ways.  That is absolutely not ethical.  So in my mind, I will think of the "Christian therapists" in this case as lay people doing Biblical counseling who were misguided and not bound by the ethics of our respective professional licenses.  Mostly, I can think this because we do not know any differently.  If more information comes to light and I am incorrect, I will be sad and angry.

[Ravin]

Nothing I said was inaccurate. I summarized what he said and did, in a way that some will not appreciate.

 

I was not addressing YOU as not Christian. I'm just saying that it is mighty convenient to play, "Blame the conservative Christian parents" in cases like this.

 

If a kid kills himself whose parents are not Christian, then we don't blame the parents. That doesn't go unnoticed.

If those parents are bigoted jerks, regardless of religion, then yes, they are blameworthy.

[Catwoman]

They should have gotten her treatment with aa legitimate counselor with experience dealing with gender issues. Instead they isolated her and persistently denied her identity. What I said to Scarlett goes for you, too. I pray you don't have a gay or trans kid so you don't have an opportunity to do them harm.

The thing is, they were probably parents who loved their child and wanted to help. If they truly didn't care, they wouldn't have insisted on the counseling. We will never know their true reasons for taking their child out of school, but I would suspect it was because they thought they were doing the right thing. And realistically, people are judging these parents as being universally terrible people solely on the content of a suicide note written by an incredibly desperate and depressed person, and that is unfair.

 

Many -- probably most -- people have no experience whatsoever with having a transgendered child, so although I disagree with the way these particular parents handled the entire situation, I will give them the benefit of the doubt and assume that they were trying their best to be good parents and to help their child in what they believed to be the best possible way.

 

Again, would I do what they did? No. Absolutely not. But I won't say they are terrible human beings because I'm sure they tried to help their child as best they could and that they had no idea in the world that things would end so tragically. They will have to live with incredible guilt for the rest of their lives. Can you imagine how they must be feeling after reading that suicide note? I hope none of us ever has to go through something like that.

 

And FWIW, I feel so incredibly sorry for the driver of the truck. What a horrific memory to have to carry with him. Seeing someone step in front of him and not being able to stop in time. :crying:

[Btervet]

It is so sad what has happened to that poor girl, and even more sad that it is so common in the trans community. 

 

The high suicide rate in the trans community is absolutely related to the lack of acceptance and isolation that trans people experience. That doesn't mean we should blame the parents, and I don't think most people in this thread are blaming them. But it does mean we can blame the societal constructs that pushed the parents isolate and reject their child. We need to have a conversation about that. We need to focus on what trans kids are feeling and experiencing that is leading to an absurdly high suicide rate. This poor girl asked us to do just that in her letter. It can be hard to have that conversation without feeling like blaming the parent. Relationships are complicated, especially when you are trying to do what you think is best for you child. 

 

We can't change what happened to this family. We can educate more families, parents, and children, so that we might prevent future trans teens feeling like they have no way out.

 

It get's better. It needs to get better faster.

[Katy]

If those parents are bigoted jerks, regardless of religion, then yes, they are blameworthy.

 

We can't possibly know that they are bigoted jerks.  All we have is the terse words of a mentally ill teenager.

 

My first serious relationship (college) was with the son of a pastor.  Three years in I figured out he was mentally ill, definitely depression, sometimes suicidal, probably borderline personality disorder, and though he would never confirm it, based on a few confessions I suspect has gender identity issues too.  I'm going to continue to refer to him as "he" because that is who he says he is.

 

The boy was literally a different person with different groups of people.  Who he was to me when we were alone, who he was to my family, who he was at church, who he was around his parents, who he was around the three different groups of friends I got to know...  they were all different people.  He had very strong opinions about how people would judge the real him, but the truth was he wouldn't open up to anyone.  He "knew" no one would accept him, but he refused to be honest.  Call him on it, he went ballistic. I am absolutely certain I heard similar words from him right before each hospitalization, and I can absolutely assure you none of it is true.  All his fears were in his head, and coming from his own judgments, and not from reality.

 

 

I saw his parents interacting with people HE judged, and they were extremely loving and compassionate and accepting.  I'm sure there would have been some judge-y people in his parent's church, but certainly not everyone, probably not even half from the people I got to know there. At times when he was hospitalized I talked to his parents about some of the bizzare things he said to me, and at every single opportunity given he had never told anyone the whole truth about anything.  He assumed judgement and hatefulness, I think because he hated himself.  And I'm certain he did have a therapist or two tell him he was being selfish... he was consistently being selfish, as people are want to do when they are mentally ill and depressed.  I don't think he ever told a therapist the whole truth either, from what he told me.  Decades later, he's still mentally ill.

[IsabelC]

I would respect my child's choices and allow her to live as whichever gender she wanted.  When a young child's gender matches his or her sex we don't say, "Well, why don't you wait until you're older to decide for sure?"  So why would we say that when a child feels they're transgender?

 

Yep, that.

[Haiku]

A Twitter response to Leelah Alcorn's death

 

#RealLiveTransAdult

 

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/reallivetransadult-emerges-twitter-following-transgender-teens-death/?hootPostID=2d8b9d94d6f8eeb2d7ea66b413ffa308

[Mergath]

We can't possibly know that they are bigoted jerks.  All we have is the terse words of a mentally ill teenager.

 

My first serious relationship (college) was with the son of a pastor.  Three years in I figured out he was mentally ill, definitely depression, sometimes suicidal, probably borderline personality disorder, and though he would never confirm it, based on a few confessions I suspect has gender identity issues too.  I'm going to continue to refer to him as "he" because that is who he says he is.

 

The boy was literally a different person with different groups of people.  Who he was to me when we were alone, who he was to my family, who he was at church, who he was around his parents, who he was around the three different groups of friends I got to know...  they were all different people.  He had very strong opinions about how people would judge the real him, but the truth was he wouldn't open up to anyone.  He "knew" no one would accept him, but he refused to be honest.  Call him on it, he went ballistic. I am absolutely certain I heard similar words from him right before each hospitalization, and I can absolutely assure you none of it is true.  All his fears were in his head, and coming from his own judgments, and not from reality.

 

 

I saw his parents interacting with people HE judged, and they were extremely loving and compassionate and accepting.  I'm sure there would have been some judge-y people in his parent's church, but certainly not everyone, probably not even half from the people I got to know there. At times when he was hospitalized I talked to his parents about some of the bizzare things he said to me, and at every single opportunity given he had never told anyone the whole truth about anything.  He assumed judgement and hatefulness, I think because he hated himself.  And I'm certain he did have a therapist or two tell him he was being selfish... he was consistently being selfish, as people are want to do when they are mentally ill and depressed.  I don't think he ever told a therapist the whole truth either, from what he told me.  Decades later, he's still mentally ill.

 

You're making an awful lot of assumptions here.  The first being that Leelah Alcorn was mentally ill.  You don't have to be mentally ill to commit suicide.  And as for the boy you refer to here, your opinion is nothing but assumptions.

 

Also, being "mentally ill and depressed" does not make a person "consistently selfish."  Good grief.  

[TeenagerMom]

A statement that was on Facebook from a neighbor & parent of one if Leelah's friends.

[LucyStoner]

Leelah herself tells us that she was unable to get counseling that would "cure me of my depression". It's not a stretch to believe that as a trans teen Leelah struggled with depression, especially when she mentions it herself. Depression is a mental illness. Also gender dysphoria, the diagnosis that you need to obtain to get prescribed hormones and other treatment, is in the DSM.

 

I didn't agree with Katy's post about her friend but there's no reason to pretend it is an off base assumption that a trans teen who killed herself had serious mental health issues. Lack of appropriate counseling is what most people, including me, are sad that she didn't get. Depression, even depression that is exacerbated by the life situation you are in and the people surrounding you, can still very much be a clinical mental health issue.

[Mergath]

Leelah herself tells us that she was unable to get counseling that would "cure her depression". It's not a stretch to believe that as a trans teen Leelah struggled with depression, especially when she mentions it herself. Depression is a mental illness. Also gender dysphoria, the diagnosis that you need to obtain to get prescribed hormones and other treatment, is in the DSM.

 

I didn't agree with Katy's post about her friend but there's no reason to pretend it is an off base assumption that a trans teen who killed herself had serious mental health issues. Lack of appropriate counseling is what most people, including me, are sad that she didn't get.

 

I just don't agree with the assumption that a young person who commits suicide only does so if they're mentally ill.  It makes it too easy to brush off as, "Oh, they were crazy, there was nothing anyone could have done anyway."  

[Katy]

Being suicidal automatically meets the clinical definition of severe depression, and severe depression = mentally ill.

 

It's quite common for those who are severely depressed to be extremely selfish, they cannot focus on much except themselves.  It's a very common manifestation of depression.

 

And frankly, no one else is in the place to judge whether I was making assumptions about my mentally ill ex because I didn't share that much about him in the post.  Suffice it to say that it was a series of lessons on boundaries, personality disorders, and what depression will do to anyone.

 

I feel very confident in saying that if someone is suicidal, they are more than likely interpreting many things in their life in a skewed perspective compared to someone who is mentally healthy.

 

 

ETA:  I just read the post from the neighbor, and if that is real it is very, very sad.  I'm not in any way suggesting atrocities don't happen, only that no one should assume one has happened from one post when we don't know the other side of the story.  Also, mentally ill does not in any way imply someone should be dismissed as crazy.  I guess I look at this from a nursing perspective, because I would never assume that depression (which is only one form of mental illness and chemical imbalance in the brain) is in any way the same thing as schizophrenia, paranoid delusions, bipolar, or any other form of mental illness that manifest in completely different ways.  If someone has a history of delusions  and/or hallucinations, obviously I would judge that differently than depression.   But I would never just dismiss anyone's claims because of mental illness, it's just that mental illness definitely effects how suspicious I am of claims.

[LucyStoner]

I just don't agree with the assumption that a young person who commits suicide only does so if they're mentally ill. It makes it too easy to brush off as, "Oh, they were crazy, there was nothing anyone could have done anyway."

I don't think most people are brushing off Leelah's death as an unavoidable tragedy. I'm certainly not. I agree with you that it would not be ok to brush it off as her being "crazy".

 

But it's also not ok say or imply that it was fully preventable by her parents or others around her. You simply can't place that level of responsibility on humans.

 

I am sure that the environment and belief system she was raised in contributed to her mental health needs and to her horrible death. Still, we must not be so foolish as to think that had she been our daughter instead that she'd still be alive. Maybe. Hopefully. But we really don't know.

[Mergath]

Being suicidal automatically meets the clinical definition of severe depression, and severe depression = mentally ill.

 

It's quite common for those who are severely depressed to be extremely selfish, they cannot focus on much except themselves.  It's a very common manifestation of depression.

 

And frankly, no one else is in the place to judge whether I was making assumptions about my mentally ill ex because I didn't share that much about him in the post.  Suffice it to say that it was a series of lessons on boundaries, personality disorders, and what depression will do to anyone.

 

I feel very confident in saying that if someone is suicidal, they are more than likely interpreting many things in their life in a skewed perspective compared to someone who is mentally healthy.

 

If a child commits suicide because they are bullied past the point where they can tolerate it, for example, I don't think that automatically makes them mentally ill.  Yes, by the act of committing suicide they may meet the DSM definition for depression, but it doesn't mean they have chemical imbalances in their brain that would make them ill regardless of the situation.  It doesn't mean they would have committed suicide without the bullying occurring.  And brushing off Leelah Alcorn's words and actions as caused by her supposed mental illness is missing the whole point.  I'd probably say I was depressed too, if my parents treated me as a virtual prisoner and forced me to live as something I wasn't.  I see that as a different beast than the kind of clinical depression caused by a chemical imbalance in the brain and treated effectively by medication.  

 

And no, depression does not make people act "extremely selfish."  Ffs.

[Mergath]

I don't think most people are brushing off Leelah's death as an unavoidable tragedy. I'm certainly not. I agree with you that it would not be ok to brush it off as her being "crazy".

 

But it's also not ok say or imply that it was fully preventable by her parents or others around her. You simply can't place that level of responsibility on humans.

 

I am sure that the environment and belief system she was raised in contributed to her mental health needs and to her horrible death. Still, we must not be so foolish as to think that had she been our daughter instead that she'd still be alive. Maybe. Hopefully. But we really don't know.

 

But how horribly can a parent treat their child before we're allowed to say it is their fault?  What level of emotional abuse can they heap onto a child that takes his or her own life before we can say, yes, without that occurring, the child would have been okay?  I don't think it's foolish to say, had Leelah been in a loving and accepting environment, there's a good chance she wouldn't have committed suicide.    

[Tsuga]

There are no guarantees in life.

 

But I do know that when I was depressed-not clinically depressed, but thinking of suicide, the one thought I had that prevented me from really considering it was, "I couldn't do that to mom--she would blame herself and it wouldn't be right."

 

It wasn't that I felt that things were perfect. I knew she was disappointed in me in some things (attention, chores, etc.). I knew she disagreed with some choices I made. But I could hear her voice in my head--"I love you honey, no matter what I am so proud of who you are. No matter what happens you'll always have a home." I knew I could change my sex, I knew I could be gay, be an artist, be a Christian, be a pagan--she probably wouldn't have let Nazi paraphernalia in the house, but other than that, anything coming out of love, yes, I knew I had a place.

 

I thought that she loved me too much to deserve that guilt.

 

There is a connection between how we treat our children, and how they treat themselves.

 

Is it a guarantee? No, of course not. But just because something isn't a sufficient condition for mental health, or even a necessary condition, doesn't mean it's not a big factor in mental health.

[Katy]

If a child commits suicide because they are bullied past the point where they can tolerate it, for example, I don't think that automatically makes them mentally ill.  Yes, by the act of committing suicide they may meet the DSM definition for depression, but it doesn't mean they have chemical imbalances in their brain that would make them ill regardless of the situation.  It doesn't mean they would have committed suicide without the bullying occurring.  And brushing off Leelah Alcorn's words and actions as caused by her supposed mental illness is missing the whole point.  I'd probably say I was depressed too, if my parents treated me as a virtual prisoner and forced me to live as something I wasn't.  I see that as a different beast than the kind of clinical depression caused by a chemical imbalance in the brain and treated effectively by medication.  

 

And no, depression does not make people act "extremely selfish."  Ffs.

 

This is clearly about something more than this child and this suicide for you.

 

I was not saying not to believe the child, only that we should take a suicide note with a grain of salt.  To my knowledge the family has not shared their perspective, and mentally ill people frequently have a perspective that healthy people do not share.  That's all.  My advise was to not judge the family because we do not know the whole story, and frequently completely infuriating stories turn out to be false or exaggerated when the whole story comes out.

 

Now, having said that, if we assume every single thing in that suicide note is factually correct, and you or I were in that situation.  Yes, situations can certainly trigger depression, It's called situational depression and for some people that are predisposed, a very stressful situation will trigger a depression that will persist even after the stress is long over.   This is probably a genetic thing, though certainly there are environmental factors.

 

Still, some kids in that situation would never get so depressed they would commit suicide.  Some wouldn't get depressed at all, they would get angry and call CPS on their parents.  Some would run away. Some would find another relative or an attorney to help them fight their parents.  Some would get emancipated. Some would get angry but would trust that sooner or later they'd grow up and they'd never have to see their parents again.

 

And some very sensitive kids, even with very loving and unconditionally accepting parents end up committing suicide because they don't like who they are or the challenges they anticipate facing.  Even if every single thing that child said about her parents is correct, suicide was her choice.  Not calling 911 instead of suicide was her choice.  She clearly had access to the internet, so she could not have been that isolated at that moment.  She did this because she didn't love herself.  I'm sure much of that was a chemical thing, and those parents might have been awful, or they might have been angels, but ultimately the decision this girl made was her responsibility.

[Haiku]

I mentioned upthread that Leelah died because her parents didn't meet her needs. I am not daft enough to believe that even when parents do everything right, everything will always turn out ok. I know that parents can do all the right they can and their child can still not be able to face life. But parents can do a lot of wrong, too, even if it's with good intentions, and when they make those mistakes, they do shoulder some of the blame. If I treated my child who has HIV with herbs or ozone and she sickened and died, or I treated a child with diabetes with prayer and he sickened and died, I would be culpable in the child's death even if I believed I was doing the right thing. Parents who fail to get their child adequate mental health treatment are culpable in their child's death even if 100% of the blame can't be laid squarely at their feet. And it appears Leelah Alcorn's parents caused a great deal of harm even beyond failing to secure adequate mental health treatment. They rejected her core sense of self, isolated her from support, and heaped religious guilt on her. These actions cannot be treated lightly.

[Katy]

But how horribly can a parent treat their child before we're allowed to say it is their fault?  What level of emotional abuse can they heap onto a child that takes his or her own life before we can say, yes, without that occurring, the child would have been okay?  I don't think it's foolish to say, had Leelah been in a loving and accepting environment, there's a good chance she wouldn't have committed suicide.    

 

 

The reality is when it comes to things like suicide it is ultimately only the responsibility of the person who made that choice.  That might be very scary, but we can only control what we can control.

How many teenagers have you known that committed suicide?  Of the several that I've known, some well, some not so well, about half were in loving environments with loving families.

[TranquilMind]

If a child is treated by parents in ways that devalue that child and dismiss that child's sense of self, then yes, I blame the parents, regardless of their religion or lack thereof. Non-religious parents can be insensitive and rejecting, too.

 

This girl did not die because she had Christian parents. She died because her parents did not meet her needs in sensitive, appropriate ways.

IF that is the case, yes.  You simply don't know this is the case.  You know the way some extremely troubled young person was feeling when he wrote stuff down.  If you ask ANY troubled young person WHEN THEY ARE UPSET if the parents are at fault for whatever they are going through, most likely, the young person will say yes. 

 

I do find it highly telling that only Christian parents are blamed for this kind of thing.  Otherwise, the kid just had unaddressed issues, or unknown bullies, or something.    Non-religious parents are never blamed in this particularly horrible way, but only in generalities, "Dad was not around much and didn't connect with me", etc. 

 

Interestingly, It is only the parents' fault when:

 

 The parents are conservative Christians and it is a sexuality issue.

 

The young person died because he killed himself, rather than push on, not because his parents failed to the perfect thing for this particular child.  

[TranquilMind]

And here we have an example of when it doesn't correlate.(And research shows that your percentages are off, BTW.)   And here we have an example of how NOT to treat it ... minimizing the child's STRONG feelings on this issue (and not opinion, but sense of true self), belittling it, not tolerating it, treating it as sinful.  This this is a common example (if the 40% figure quoted by Ravin is accurate - I had heard even higher) of the result of this lack of acceptance by parents. 

 

Had we not accepted our transgendger child for who they are rather than belittle them or ignore it or turn only to people who treat it as a sin, I can say with confidence that our child would not be here today.  Even with acceptance on our part, self-acceptance is an even tougher road to travel.  We are fortunate that we found a good counselor who helped us find resources, helped us see that things were really much worse than we thought, hence our trip to the ER and then admission to an intensive outpatient program. 

 

No argument there, as we really can't know what would happen in a different scenario, as people are individuals.  Obviously, the result here says that whatever the parental response, it was certainly not the perfect one.  They will be beating themselves up for the rest of their lives here; I feel no need to add to that. 

[Haiku]

Interestingly, It is only the parents' fault when:

 

The parents are conservative Christians and it is a sexuality issue.

 

You keep saying this, but you provide no empirical support for this claim. It's simply not true. You are seeing only what you want to see.

 

I have had plenty of friends whose parents threw them out or otherwise devalued them for their sexuality. About half were Christian parents. I hold all equally to blame for their mistreatment of their children, and I don't particularly care what their motivation for doing so is.

 

You seem stuck on seeing anti-Christisn bias when there is none. Poor parenting transcends religious belief.

[TranquilMind]

The phrase you are looking for is "confirmation bias".

 

You believe that conservative Christians are under attack and routinely maligned, so you see only Christian parents getting blamed for the death of a child.

 

I have had the very sad experience of living through the deaths of several teens, some due to accidents, some to suicide. What I have experienced is that NO ONE within the inner circle of family and friends places blame at the feet of the parents unless they are mentally ill. Outside that inner circle, any discussion of that child's death inevitably includes someone seeking to place blame on the parents. Christian, atheist, Buddhist, pagan......distancing one's self from tragedy by claiming it happened in some part because of bad choices allows people to stay comfy in the safe place where nothing bad could ever happen to THEM.

 

This is a tragedy. The fact that, had she received proper help, it might have been avoided makes it only more tragic, not less.

 

Is conservative evangelical Christianity's stance on this issue relevant? Yes.

 

Is the discussion of the Christian community in this situation an attack on the church? No.

 

Please, let's not turn this thread into another long circular arguement.

Now you are simply putting words in my mouth.  I believe no such thing, but it does occasionally happen and I'm not blind to it, as are many here. 

 

I've had the experience of living through the deaths of several people close to me, so you aren't talking to someone who gets this only in theory here.     I object to "blame the parents" in most scenarios; they are blaming themselves already.  Don't we all, no matter what happens?  I've spent my life feeling like "If I were a better (fill in the blank), X would not have happened".  So I don't pile on like that. 

It might have been avoided if this young person had received "proper" help (whatever you deem that to be).  It might have made NO DIFFERENCE AT ALL.  You don't know.  Some people just kill themselves and don't stick it out, when they experience pain on an ongoing basis.  That's just the nature of humans. 

 

The Bible has never changed, so a believing family cannot simply toss what they know out the window, because all of the sudden, it is THEIR child who wants to do biblically-proscribed things, but I've sure seen it, over and over (even in forums, as well as in real life), where families abandoned their faith, rather than love their child while retaining their faith.  This is hard for me to fathom, but it happens all the time. 

[LucyStoner]

But how horribly can a parent treat their child before we're allowed to say it is their fault? What level of emotional abuse can they heap onto a child that takes his or her own life before we can say, yes, without that occurring, the child would have been okay? I don't think it's foolish to say, had Leelah been in a loving and accepting environment, there's a good chance she wouldn't have committed suicide.

We really can't say that for sure.

 

My brother was loved and accepted and certainly never sent to any bullshit type counsellors. You likely will not find two more liberal and progressive parents than mine. I won't go in to details but he *very nearly* didn't make it through those years and he had to move out and live with me. Nothing I did "saved" him. I can take no credit for that.

 

He is alive because the medical treatment and help he got worked. Having known people who have both attempted and committed suicide, I feel very strongly, no really I KNOW, that he could have received the exact same treatment, the same help and still have died.

 

We can assume that Leelah's mom and dad have made horrible mistakes. I reckon they will be feeling very guilty for the rest of their lives. We can not reasonably assume though that a person on the point of committing suicide is the 100% reliable narrator. Do I believe Leelah? Absolutely. Do I know there can be multiple takes on the same exact events and happenings? Yes.

 

There's some catastrophic type thinking in Leelah's note- she can never transition later, she will never be who she wants to be, it's now or never, no one would ever love her. Most trans adults did not transition until after they were 18 and a great many are loved and happy and have great relationships with their families even if those families were not initially accepting or kind. I wish Leelah had known that. But even if she had, she still may have killed herself.

 

I would like to see conversion therapy banned. I would like to see all teens granted more rights about their educational choices. There's a lot of things I think would help reduce the number of trans people who kill themselves. I think that is more productive than laying blame. The parents really most likely had no freaking idea what they were doing. No one here should give into the hubris that they would automatically do so much better. The pressures at work in this are way larger than a few parents and neighbors.

[TranquilMind]

You keep saying this, but you provide no empirical support for this claim. It's simply not true. You are seeing only what you want to see.

 

I have had plenty of friends whose parents threw them out or otherwise devalued them for their sexuality. About half were Christian parents. I hold all equally to blame for their mistreatment of their children, and I don't particularly care what their motivation for doing so is.

 

You seem stuck on seeing anti-Christisn bias when there is none. Poor parenting transcends religious belief.

http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/features/the-forsaken-a-rising-number-of-homeless-gay-teens-are-being-cast-out-by-religious-families-20140903

 

 

There are so many sources stating this, but this is just the first that popped up.  Stop pretending it is irrelevant because it isn't. It is a factor.

[TranquilMind]

If those parents are bigoted jerks, regardless of religion, then yes, they are blameworthy.

Define "bigoted jerk"?

 

Would that mean, "if the parents reject homosexuality because it is proscribed in their faith?", they are "bigoted jerks"? 

 

 Note the careful use of the word, "homosexuality", not "a CHILD engaging in gender-variant acts". 

[TranquilMind]

They should have gotten her treatment with aa legitimate counselor with experience dealing with gender issues. Instead they isolated her and persistently denied her identity. What I said to Scarlett goes for you, too. I pray you don't have a gay or trans kid so you don't have an opportunity to do them harm.

Noted.  Thank you for your "concern". 

 

What you fail to understand is that it would be the same as if the Christian parent had a child who slept around or any other thing that violated his values.  He couldn't stop it, but he sure would address the dangers and their family values. 

[merry gardens]

I'd tell my child that if she has the internal body parts to potentially carry a baby at some point in the future, then she's female and if he has the external body parts characteristic of males, he's a male. Being male or female doesn't really isn't about liking pink sparkly tutus vs. trucks. Being male or female is not a mental thing--it's a physical characteristic that relates to body parts necessary for human reproduction.  Since a very young child is not physically capable of reproduction, the young child has not yet been hit with the hormones that will result in secondary sex characteristics in the future.   

[TranquilMind]

Since you called me (I assume, there are others) out, let me tell you the ethics on this one. The ethics that a licensed, trained, qualified professional would have to follow.

 

Trans issues represent a specialty. Perhaps even a super specialty. We are supposed to treat within our trained scope. I consider myself very informed regarding sexual minorities. Especially for the area of the metro city I live in. Even so, I would not feel comfortable or appropriately trained to treat trans issues if the trans was the presenting issue. I would refer out. And it's also "on me" to make sure I find and have appropriate professionals to refer the client to. (Which I do should the situation present.)

 

I do feel I could treat sexual minorities (and, indeed, have) if the presenting problem isn't regarding their LBGTQ status.

 

These "counselors" failed in that regard.

Thank you for clarifying.  I do recall you stating that you could treat anyone of any disparate belief from yourself (not limited to sexuality- I think we were talking about marriage at the time, but would have to verify), so I would expect that others could do so as well, regardless of their own beliefs.  The poster I was addressing failed to extend that respect to other counselors. 

 

I'm sure that if a counselor believed he was out of his element, he would refer...right?    How do you know these counselors "failed"?  Are you assuming failure merely from the result?  For all you know, amazing, wise counseling could have been taking place, but the kid was in such a dark place that he couldn't hear it. 

 

Have you EVER lost a patient, no matter how excellent your counsel?  I bet you have, if you have been in this business for any length of time, because let's face it, people who see counselors in the first place are not among the most stable people, right?  Does that make you a failure?  Or do you just have some patients who are difficult to treat and you just can't reach?

[TranquilMind]

They should have gotten her treatment with aa legitimate counselor with experience dealing with gender issues. Instead they isolated her and persistently denied her identity. What I said to Scarlett goes for you, too. I pray you don't have a gay or trans kid so you don't have an opportunity to do them harm.

So, the counselor this kid saw was illegitmate?  Unlicensed?  Untrained?  Source?  It may be true but I see no verification. 

[TranquilMind]

That says far more about the harm fundamentalist Christian legalism causes when imposed upon children than it does about some perceived prejudice against Christians.  

By that logic, kids from conservative Christian families should be killing themselves in droves, yet they are not. 

[Haiku]

Ok, so the article says that studies show that highly religious families are less accepting of LGBTQ children than other families. If this is a fact, it is hardly evidence of others unfairly blaming Christian parents for negative outcomes. You said "it is only the parents' fault when," but this is not true. And if Christian parents do things that contribute to worse outcomes for their children's mental health more than non-Christian or non-religious parents do, shall we avoid speaking of it? Who does that help? I know Christian and other religious families who function very well with an LGBTQ family member. I know some who don't. The same is true for non-religious or non-Christian families. I can't help it if Christian families tend to be more rejecting of their LGBTQ children, and, if that's true, it's not blaming to point it out.

 

If a family chooses to pursue a tactic of rejection of their child over sexuality issues, I don't care why they are doing it. It is wrong.

[Joanne]

 

 

I do find it highly telling that only Christian parents are blamed for this kind of thing. Otherwise, the kid

Interestingly, It is only the parents' fault when:

 

The parents are conservative Christians and it is a sexuality issue.

 

 

Nope, I won't let you be that perceived persecuted and paranoid. It is simply math.

 

This is a homeschooling board that reflects the homeschooling demographics, still mostly Christian. Topics, therefore, reflect issues relating to that.

 

Christians tend to focus on issues of sexual sin.

 

In *this* case, the parents ARE conservative Chriatian. Hence the discussion.

 

Conservative Christianity creates a particular to w and has a particular history with "treating" sexual minorities.

 

This is not blame because they are Christian but a predictable discussion of facts around the case in a setting that is a known quantity.

 

The math adds up. - we are not adding to it because of the Christianity of the parents. The (particular kind of) Christianity of the parents represent and adds to the constellation of factors that lead to Leelah's suicide.

[TranquilMind]

Nope, I won't let you be that perceived persecuted and paranoid. It is simply math.

 

This is a homeschooling board that reflects the homeschooling demographics, still mostly Christian. Topics, therefore, reflect issues relating to that.

 

Christians tend to focus on issues of sexual sin.

 

In *this* case, the parents ARE conservative Chriatian. Hence the discussion.

 

Conservative Christianity creates a particular to w and has a particular history with "treating" sexual minorities.

 

This is not blame because they are Christian but a predictable discussion of facts around the case in a setting that is a known quantity.

 

The math adds up. - we are not adding to it because of the Christianity of the parents. The (particular kind of) Christianity of the parents represent and adds to the constellation of factors that lead to Leelah's suicide.

Please refer to the article I posted.  Blame is leveled squarely at Christian parents. 

 

And you are right; it is mere ONE of a CONSTELLATION of factors.  Any counselor can lose a patient to suicide, Christian or otherwise. 

 

I reject your implication that I believe I am "persecuted and paranoid" if that is what you meant to imply in that first unclear sentence (might be a typo with "perceived").That simply is inaccurate, though I understand that lobbing insults is a tactic used to obscure the point of the other person. But then, you of all people, should know that. 

[LucyStoner]

A statement that was on Facebook from a neighbor & parent of one if Leelah's friends.

Is there a link or a larger image? I can't get the thumbnail to open.