application process: parent etiquette

[Miss Mousie]

I came across this blog post yesterday and thought some folks might appreciate the tips (or, perhaps more so, the anecdotes of over-the-top parental moves):

 

https://educationaladvancement.wordpress.com/2014/11/11/parent-etiquette-during-the-high-school-and-college-application-process/

 

 

[momofkhm]

I have a ... not really friend, but more than an acquaintance who needs to see this.  I put it on facebook, hopefully she will.

[In The Great White North]

 

 

It is the consensus of admissions professionals from preschool through college that more and more, today’s parents are getting too involved in their child’s school admissions process – and not merely at the college level. 

 

Really?  How can a parent be too involved in their child's preschool or elementary school application? Or really even high school?  

 

For all the griping about parents involvement in admissions, it can go the other way too.  Adcoms need to realize WHY parents are so involved - too many kids whose parents weren't involved were screwed by the university, often costing the parents thousands of dollars in lost scholarships or extra semesters.  If parents could TRUST the universities (admissions, finance, advising, and quality control of teaching),  they wouldn't have this problem.

 

Of course, adcoms don't want parents involved.  They can't take advantage of a 40 year old as easily as an 18 year old.

[G5052]

Yes, very much needed.  I know some people who are like this.

 

Mine wants to go to community college, and we're good with that, but there's a lot of pressure on us as a family that we're not expecting enough.  I think it's very, very important to take into account your student's desires (as long as they are productive of course LOL).  And yes, I was involved in evaluating the academic implications of that choice.  There's no way he could that.

[dirty ethel rackham]

While I agree with much of this, there seems to be a tremendous bias against introverted kids.  Perhaps they just don't want introverts or have the mistaken notion that introverts are lazy or passive.  I take particular issue with the following:

 

2.  Don’t micromanage the whole process for your child or nag him or her about deadlines and tasks to do. If you absolutely can’t leave this area to your child, perhaps create a calendar in easy view or with easy access for your son or daughter listing due dates, etc. You can also put important deadlines into your child’s smartphone calendar or create a Google Calendar and set reminders that will come through to your child but not to you—there’s a big difference in the dissemination of this information.

 

If I hadn't reminded and nagged a little, many things would not have been done and I pictured having had a 40 year old genius living in my basement.  I am glad I kept reminders of deadlines, did some nagging and scheduling and continued a little into the college years because my really shy, hesitant kid is now a junior who will graduate a semester early with 2 summers of research under his belt and had the opportunity to present said research at a conference this past fall.  He just took longer and needed coaching longer in order to mature into adulthood. 

 

6. Self-advocating is an important part of life. Allow your child to be his or her spokesperson on all school tours and interviews.

 

Regarding the tours and interviews with department heads, my kid did not have the life experience or the knowledge about the field to have asked intelligent questions, even if he wasn't a shy kid.  

[regentrude]

While I agree with much of this, there seems to be a tremendous bias against introverted kids.  Perhaps they just don't want introverts or have the mistaken notion that introverts are lazy or passive.  I take particular issue with the following:

 

2.  Don’t micromanage the whole process for your child or nag him or her about deadlines and tasks to do. If you absolutely can’t leave this area to your child, perhaps create a calendar in easy view or with easy access for your son or daughter listing due dates, etc. You can also put important deadlines into your child’s smartphone calendar or create a Google Calendar and set reminders that will come through to your child but not to you—there’s a big difference in the dissemination of this information.

 

If I hadn't reminded and nagged a little, many things would not have been done and I pictured having had a 40 year old genius living in my basement.  I am glad I kept reminders of deadlines, did some nagging and scheduling and continued a little into the college years because my really shy, hesitant kid is now a junior who will graduate a semester early with 2 summers of research under his belt and had the opportunity to present said research at a conference this past fall.  He just took longer and needed coaching longer in order to mature into adulthood. 

 

I agree that introverts may not be as ready to ask questions and participate in discussion, but fail to see what a lack of time management skills has to do with being an introvert.

 

As an instructor, I am dealing with college students who seriously request that I send them an email reminder for an event that recurs regularly every week on the same day of the week. I have students who fail because they are incapable of adhering to a schedule of  assignments. They all have smart phones and computers - but they have been conditioned to wait until they are nagged and reminded, something college professors are usually unwilling to do for adult students.

 

I consider it a crucial skill for college readiness. I am not sure what being "shy and hesitant" has to do with being unable to keep a calendar.

[bettyandbob]

 

I consider it a crucial skill for college readiness. I am not sure what being "shy and hesitant" has to do with being unable to keep a calendar.

 

One is the issue of being introverted. My dd is an extreme introvert. It is a problem. She does get her work done on time though. She's in high school. I emphasize to her, she must speak to her teachers. I won't. She must learn to do this now because it will be even more important in 2 years when she is in college.

 

The other is Executive Function deficits. My ds has extreme executive function deficits. His high IQ cannot overcome these deficits. He did OK his first year of college, which was in a military program. He did OK because he was told what to do and where to be all the time. He decided the school wasn't right for him. He has been stumbling at the cc for 1.5 years. He's starting to get it. If I could have stepped in and monitored I would have, but not on campus. I would do it at home with things like checking to see if his calendar is being maintained.

 

You are correct they are different things. Each person must learn to deal with them on their own. Ideally, parent guidance ends in high school, but some students may need some help from the sidelines into college.

 

[Miss Mousie]

  I appreciate the questions other parents ask as it models for me how to get this information out of the staff.

 

Good point!

 

I sort of agree with you about assessing lab facilities, assuming the parent knows diddly about the subject.  If my kid keeps heading in that direction, he's going to have to seek out an advisor on his own, because his dad and I were both English majors.  I can recall taking only one lab science in high school, and none at all in college. 

[Miss Mousie]

Really?  How can a parent be too involved in their child's preschool or elementary school application? Or really even high school?  

 

 

Admissions officer to preschooler's parent:  "Look, if Junior is incapable of self-advocacy regarding equitable toy distribution, I'm afraid he just won't be able to meet our standards here at High Fallutin' Academy."

 

;)

[hornblower]

College is expensive - for many people it might be one of the largest expenditures in their lives. And it can have life altering consequences.

It's a BIG deal.

 

Grown adults are advised to bring a friend or a relative to buy a cheap used car or to doctor's appointments - because we all need some help & an outside perspective sometimes - BUT get a parent involved in education & somehow that's so terribly wrong???

I keep wondering how much of this has to do with this American obsession about independence & the individual as the most important social unit.
 

In other cultures, these things all are relevant to the entire family & so it's natural and expected for the family to be involved.

[regentrude]

College is expensive - for many people it might be one of the largest expenditures in their lives. And it can have life altering consequences.

It's a BIG deal.

Grown adults are advised to bring a friend or a relative to buy a cheap used car or to doctor's appointments - because we all need some help & an outside perspective sometimes - BUT get a parent involved in education & somehow that's so terribly wrong???

I keep wondering how much of this has to do with this American obsession about independence & the individual as the most important social unit.

In other cultures, these things all are relevant to the entire family & so it's natural and expected for the family to be involved.

 

The article never claimed that family should not be involved. In fact, it clearly mentioned some ways parents can be involved in a constructive way:

 

Ensure decision-making about applying to any prospective school is a two-way street, made by you and your child together...Set a good example by being courteous and polite when you communicate with admissions officers...You can review the essays by offering suggestions and offer to proofread for grammar and spelling, but do not try to control the content

 

The point is not to take the process away from the student.

[Laura Corin]

 

I keep wondering how much of this has to do with this American obsession about independence & the individual as the most important social unit.

 

I don't know.  For reference - it is expected in the UK for pupils to apply to university independently, ask their own questions and (for example) go away for interview on their own.  There are no parents' events at university drop off (as far as I know). You deliver and go.  It's time for them to be independent.

[regentrude]

I don't know.  For reference - it is expected in the UK for pupils to apply to university independently, ask their own questions and (for example) go away for interview on their own.  There are no parents' events at university drop off (as far as I know). You deliver and go.  It's time for them to be independent.

 

I am not aware of any parent events/newsletters/information sites etc at German universities either. The student is considered a full adult. (It also translates into a very different attitude of the college towards the students.)

 

[wapiti]

Really?  How can a parent be too involved in their child's preschool or elementary school application? Or really even high school?  

 

I agree - the article was over the top there.  I'm going to sit back and not ask any questions on the high school tour?  Really? There's a big difference between a 13 y.o. and a 17 y.o.

 

Dd13 just submitted an application last night for a private high school.  There were about four parent questions and more than 10 student short-essay-type questions.  Dd's responses were not particularly long and I wonder whether they were long enough, but they made sense to me.  She drafted, I edited together with her.  (Honestly it was almost fun, the working-together part, on the couch next to the tree lights.  Almost.  I don't think I'd go so far as to say I controlled the content as I wanted the answers to be hers, but I did exercise veto power over a few lines here and there that were unhelpful.)  Incidentally, the application is via parent on-line account, not student.  Emails come to me.

 

I'm hoping that something of the high school application process sinks in, as a preview of what is to come in four years; i.e., I hope she benefits from this experience.  Oddly enough, one of my ds11s learned something by observation and is now quite concerned that he has nothing to write about on his high school application in two years.

[Pawz4me]

We're all about building independence, and started that process a LONG time before college was even on the horizon.

 

Still, kids are individuals and it can be a scary, daunting time for even the most self-confident, outgoing teen.

 

So it's all about finding that fine line between supporting and encouraging them but not doing too much.

 

If I had to do too much (and don't ask me how I'd define that, because I don't know for sure) I'd tend to believe that the kid wasn't quite ready to take on the challenge of college just yet.

[In The Great White North]

The big difference between European universities and Americans ones is the price.  

 

In Europe, the risk is maybe $5,000 a year?   A student might earn/win a scholarship $5000 and pay for it themselves. It allows them to be independent.

 

In America, it's $50,000 a year. That $50,000 involves the parents in 90% of the cases (everyone without a full ride, which they are unlikely to get without parental involvement through the years).  They cannot be financially independent. No bank will loan them that kind of money without a co-signer. The university really shouldn't expect anyone to take on that kind of debt without being very involved in it. 

 

If they really want the students to behave independently, they need to price college so it is possible.  Otherwise, they should stop complaining about parents being "involved".

[dirty ethel rackham]

I agree that introverts may not be as ready to ask questions and participate in discussion, but fail to see what a lack of time management skills has to do with being an introvert.

 

As an instructor, I am dealing with college students who seriously request that I send them an email reminder for an event that recurs regularly every week on the same day of the week. I have students who fail because they are incapable of adhering to a schedule of  assignments. They all have smart phones and computers - but they have been conditioned to wait until they are nagged and reminded, something college professors are usually unwilling to do for adult students.

 

I consider it a crucial skill for college readiness. I am not sure what being "shy and hesitant" has to do with being unable to keep a calendar.

You are right.  These are two separate issues ... sort of.  My older kids who are introverts get their homework done, on time, by themselves, without my nagging.  The issue with applying to colleges was not so much a time-management issue, but fear of the unknown.  Procrastination was more about being afraid of the process and of the big changes to come.  They needed coaching and encouragement to buckle down and do it.   My oldest had similar issues with applying for summer research jobs his first year.  Even though he was away at college, I had to nag and push to make sure he got it done on time.  But he did it and is very glad I pushed.   I scheduled the college visits for my kids because I knew that, if I didn't do it, then it wouldn't get done and I would have very shy, timid, very smart people living in my basement for the rest of their lives going nowhere, instead of kids who were lead to take some steps in the shallow end before they could discover that the water was fine and they would be swimming out to the deep end in no time. 

 

Like I mentioned before, I didn't have to do it forever. My oldest had his research application in well ahead of time the 2nd year.  He is currently looking at research positions at other universities and looking at grad school programs without any input from me. 

[Tsuga]

 

It is the consensus of admissions professionals from preschool through college that more and more, today’s parents are getting too involved in their child’s school admissions process – and not merely at the college level.

 

I hate to break it to the writer, but pre-school admission (not that it was ultra competitive) was pretty much a no-go for my child without me to fill out the form.

 

She's conflating very different processes.

 

I do think people do a lot for college students, but I'm probably in the minority on this thread.

 

But pre-schoolers?

 

 

 

[Laura Corin]

The big difference between European universities and Americans ones is the price.  

 

In Europe, the risk is maybe $5,000 a year?   A student might earn/win a scholarship $5000 and pay for it themselves. It allows them to be independent.

 

In America, it's $50,000 a year. That $50,000 involves the parents in 90% of the cases (everyone without a full ride, which they are unlikely to get without parental involvement through the years).  They cannot be financially independent. No bank will loan them that kind of money without a co-signer. The university really shouldn't expect anyone to take on that kind of debt without being very involved in it. 

 

If they really want the students to behave independently, they need to price college so it is possible.  Otherwise, they should stop complaining about parents being "involved".

 

That definitely makes sense as far as cash is concerned - although it's not as cheap as you mentioned, as the cost for Calvin is USD 13,500 per annum, plus living expenses - however going to university is an investment in the child's future too - not only of money but of time, effort and risk of failure.  I still try to leave most of the application and decision-making to the child.

 

FWIW, Calvin and Hobbes are both going to university on 529s that we invested in some years ago.  

 

L

[MysteryJen]

Right now, in the area where I spend a lot of time (note: not where I live), open enrollment for high school and middle school is going on. In this upper middle class community, it is a festival of crazy. Lost in all of this (seriously...does Harvard or Stanford care where you went to middle school? Yes, someone asked me that question) is what the kids want. Asking parents what their kid liked about a school is met with a blank stare. The kids are getting shut out of the decisions that impact their lives.

Money is not an issue here; these are public schools. Parents being involved does not really prevent mistakes in school choice.

 

Parents can be too involved. There is a difference between editing an essay and writing it. There is a difference between asking a question for your own interest and speaking for your child.

 

Support and encouragement is not the same things as actually doing the work for them.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

While I agree with much of this, there seems to be a tremendous bias against introverted kids.  Perhaps they just don't want introverts or have the mistaken notion that introverts are lazy or passive.  I take particular issue with the following:

 

2.  Don’t micromanage the whole process for your child or nag him or her about deadlines and tasks to do. If you absolutely can’t leave this area to your child, perhaps create a calendar in easy view or with easy access for your son or daughter listing due dates, etc. You can also put important deadlines into your child’s smartphone calendar or create a Google Calendar and set reminders that will come through to your child but not to you—there’s a big difference in the dissemination of this information.

 

If I hadn't reminded and nagged a little, many things would not have been done and I pictured having had a 40 year old genius living in my basement.  I am glad I kept reminders of deadlines, did some nagging and scheduling and continued a little into the college years because my really shy, hesitant kid is now a junior who will graduate a semester early with 2 summers of research under his belt and had the opportunity to present said research at a conference this past fall.  He just took longer and needed coaching longer in order to mature into adulthood. 

 

6. Self-advocating is an important part of life. Allow your child to be his or her spokesperson on all school tours and interviews.

 

Regarding the tours and interviews with department heads, my kid did not have the life experience or the knowledge about the field to have asked intelligent questions, even if he wasn't a shy kid.  

 

The distinction I would draw with this is the difference between a parent asking a question like, "I've heard that all freshmen are required to take introductory calculus online rather than in a class setting.  Could you tell me more about that?" and a question like, "My daughter would like to do a semester of study abroad, how does she apply to that?" when the said daughter is standing right there.

 

I appreciate parents who ask questions that fall within the experienced adult realm like what opportunities for interning and coops do students have.  We had a guide at VA Tech who made some really peculiar statements about campus security.  DH asked a follow up and the guide stuck to his statement and elaborated on it.  Fortunately we happened to run into a campus police officer as we returned to the visitor's center.  We asked the question of him and got a wildly different response (as well as a very annoyed police officer).

 

But questions that refer to a potential student as if they aren't standing right there may be over the line.

 

 

As someone who works admissions tables, what really bugs me are parents who interrupt their kid when we are having a conversation to tell me what the student "really" wants or thinks.  But my absolute least favorite are the parents who wave off explanations about the steps to admissions with comments like, "We're not worried about that, his grandfather is golf partners with Admiral ABC."  It shows a misunderstanding of the application process and an lack of interest in actually learning about it.  I'm sure that other schools have similar admissions stories.

[FaithManor]

I think part of the problem is the infantilization during high school. Students aren't prepared to ask the right questions or advocate for themselves because they aren't allowed to do it at school at any time prior to entering college. The whole K-12 system micromanages the child from beginning to end thus many students do not develop the skills necessary to take over the process for themselves or think clearly about what they should be looking for in a program, ie. do the research without assistance. They've never been allowed to do it before at a time when not so much was riding on it, so they aren't going to automatically have the skills just because college application time is around the corner. Parents need to be proactive about finding ways outside of school to encourage their children to develop these skills because institutionalized education as it stands in this nation is only going to contribute to lack of critical thinking skills and delayed development, ability to juggle the details, etc.

 

Now, that said, I think that colleges need to remember that I they so ardently want to access mums' and dads' pocket books for thousands and thousands of dollars, then like any investment, these parents have a lot of questions to ask, and they better be prepared to answer them! For the most part, we've never had any issue with adcoms or financial aid NOT being willing to answer questions, but we've had more than one dean try to get out of answering pointed questions about their departments, course offerings, and facilities. Those schools never rank high on our list because it appears they have something to hide.

 

But, ultimately it starts with trying to overcome the micromanagement and prolonged infantilization of our educational system so kids can develop the skills they need to handle the admission's process.

 

 

 

 

[Butler]

The big difference between European universities and Americans ones is the price.

 

In Europe, the risk is maybe $5,000 a year? A student might earn/win a scholarship $5000 and pay for it themselves. It allows them to be independent.

 

In America, it's $50,000 a year. That $50,000 involves the parents in 90% of the cases (everyone without a full ride, which they are unlikely to get without parental involvement through the years). They cannot be financially independent. No bank will loan them that kind of money without a co-signer. The university really shouldn't expect anyone to take on that kind of debt without being very involved in it.

 

If they really want the students to behave independently, they need to price college so it is possible. Otherwise, they should stop complaining about parents being "involved".

I don't think this true with most of the universities in the US. Many states have tuition under $10,000 per year. Add in room and board and it still under $20,000 in many cases. And that's with no merit aid or need based grants. If a student is only going to focus on private institutions then, yes, they might be paying close to $50,000. That's a personal choice, there are many other options.

[bettyandbob]

I don't think this true with most of the universities in the US. Many states have tuition under $10,000 per year. Add in room and board and it still under $20,000 in many cases. And that's with no merit aid or need based grants. If a student is only going to focus on private institutions then, yes, they might be paying close to $50,000. That's a personal choice, there are many other options.

 

20,000 is about what it costs at most in state schools in my state. That is still going to be difficult for my family.

 

In the same state 30 years ago I could have managed tuition room and board without student loans or other aid. (I didn't because my father didn't want me to work during the semester) Now, there's no way one can pay their own way without loans and contributions from mom and dad. Particularly, middle class-upper middle class families who don't qualify for aid.

 

So, 50 K/ year might be an exaggeration, but a significant investment is still expected/needed. I'm going to do my research as a parent to see where my money is going. But there are ways to do the research and still be in the background of the college search/application process.

[Jenny in Florida]

But there are ways to do the research and still be in the background of the college search/application process.

 

I agree with this. I certainly did assist my son with research. He was extremely busy at the time, with dual enrollment and finishing high school classes and volunteering and spending half his life at the dance studio. Also, I happen to like research and be great at it, and he isn't. 

 

Frankly, I do most of the research for my family. When either my husband or I need a new car, we set parameters and I do the initial research. When we need to find a new rental, I do that research, too. My husband is currently job hunting, and I'm helping him keep on top of those listings. It didn't seem unreasonable to handle the college search the same way.

 

When my son decided it was time to look at schools, we had a few conversations about what he was looking for: what he wanted to study, what size school he wanted, how close to home, what activities were important to him, etc. Then I started visiting the College Board and other school search sites and making lists of schools that I thought might appeal to him. When he had time, we would sit down and go through the links I had gathered, and he would vote to keep schools on the list or dump them. Sometimes, he would get a mailing from a school I hadn't shown him or would follow a link from an e-mail or from a search he had done on his own and wold find a college he would add to the list. 

 

Over the course of a few weeks, he ended up with a list of colleges he wanted to explore in more depth. We planned a couple of road trips to visit the schools within reasonable driving distance of home, and he crossed a few more off the list.

 

He sent e-mails to the dance and theatre departments at several schools that seemed interesting and either kept them or crossed them off based on the responses he received. 

 

Finally, we sat down together again and finalized the list of colleges to which he was sure he wanted to apply. I helped him make a calendar to hang on the wall of deadlines for applications and auditions and such. And we carved out space in his weekly schedule so that he had the time to work on essays and applications. (He wrote it into the weekly planner he used for school work.)

 

I made sure he had the records he needed -- transcript, the activities log I had kept for him during high school, names and contact info for his recommenders -- and he filled out applications. He wrote his essays, and I proofread them for him, exactly as I get paid to do for other people's children. (I tutor online part-time and work with a good number of students each week during application season who are writing or polishing application essays.)

 

During campus visits, I tried to find out-of-the-way corners in which to sit while he did interviews and meetings. Even when I was invited in, I usually demurred. As far as I recall, the only e-mail or phone communication I had with any colleges was when we were arranging reimbursement for travel expenses from one school. (The check had to come to me.)

 

Did I do a little nagging? Yes. If I had it to do over again, I would try to do less. I tried very hard to make sure I stayed on the right side of the line separating "support" from "too much." 

 

I made very sure "he" was applying to colleges, not "we."

[Granny_Weatherwax]

 

I made very sure "he" was applying to colleges, not "we."

 

This is the most difficult part.  It's why my son's list of schools looks very different from the one I would have liked to see for him and why three essays are still incomplete and the applications are pending.

 

I admit, though, to being the one who ordered the test scores to be sent to the schools.  Mostly because DS didn't want to mess with credit card transactions and such.

 

I also nag.  Some days I feel like the only communication I have with DS is nagging him about getting things completed.  :(  His school work is never an issue.  He's up on deadlines and is always ahead of the game.  It's just with these dratted college applications.

[FaithManor]

I don't think this true with most of the universities in the US. Many states have tuition under $10,000 per year. Add in room and board and it still under $20,000 in many cases. And that's with no merit aid or need based grants. If a student is only going to focus on private institutions then, yes, they might be paying close to $50,000. That's a personal choice, there are many other options.

 

But again, un-cosigned student loans top out at $5500.00 the freshman year. The student, due to FASFA, can't be totally independent anyway. Colleges make it very, very difficult to get that declaration. Usually the student has to be married for at least a year. Moving away from home, getting a job, and paying your own way will not get you declared independent for FASFA purposes. Sigh...so your parents have to do the paperwork, your federal and state financial aid is figured on their income, and nearly ALL of it phases out above $50,000.00 per year. $20,000 is nearly half the annual income. That means scholarships. But the merit money pool has dwindled significantly since the housing bubble burst so the number of full, 3/4, and half ride scholarships given by state schools in Michigan is less than half of what it was in 2008. Even if the student gets a half ride, with fees, books, and other costs, they probably need to come up with $12,000.00 and of that, only $5500.00 is available un-cosigned. So that's $6500.00 that has to come from somewhere, and it won't be a campus job because the hours on those have been scaled back significantly. Maybe the student can get a part time job somewhere else. But those that are willing to work around a college schedule are getting more and more sparse. Add to that the college may have a payment plan for parents, but rarely has one for the student because they don't see the student as having demonstrated reliability - ie. credit rating - and whammo, something has to give. In my experience only the very lowest income families are seeing significant need based aid such that a $20,000 institution is not a hardship. Most middle class families are just reeling from the bills of such institutions. The generosity of need and merit aid just isn't there.

 

 

 

[Butler]

Oh I don't disagree with the fact that $10 or 20,000 a year is a lot of money. And the majority of students are going to need financial assistance from parents. I just disagree that $50,000 a year for college is the norm. I think very few students pay that kind of amount.

[flyingiguana]

My kids in college still want my advice on which classes to take.  A lot of times I've disagreed with the counselor/advisor because they are following written rules that don't really need to apply to anyone.

 

Apparently, I also know "which questions to ask", according to my kids, after watching me in action.  It's not that I'm ever rude or pushy or confrontational, it's just that I know the system so I understand which things really are hard and fast and which probably have a lot of wiggle room.

 

It's saved both my kids a lot of class scheduling nightmares that the advisors were trying to push them into.

 

But, yeah, my kids might have been one of the very few who showed up with a parent in tow for their first advising session.

 

I suspect that part of the "letting your kid go" message is all about promoting a mystique of having the kid enter adulthood the minute they step on to campus.  It might be part marketing, as much as it is trying to con unsuspecting teens.

 

And I'm having trouble believing there are really all that many obnoxious pushy parents out there.  In all the years I've been around college campuses, I've mostly only heard a few rumors -- and mostly from faculty who I suspect didn't really have their act together (so maybe parents did need to step in).  My husband, for example (who complains about everything to me), has only once had parents step in with a student's problems.  And that was only because another faculty member accused the student of cheating, which may or may not have been happening.  (And if it was, probably a less draconian punishment/resolution would have been the wiser course of action.  Particularly seeing as there wasn't definitive proof.  That faculty member left a year or so later...)

[regentrude]

And I'm having trouble believing there are really all that many obnoxious pushy parents out there.  In all the years I've been around college campuses, I've mostly only heard a few rumors -- and mostly from faculty who I suspect didn't really have their act together (so maybe parents did need to step in).  My husband, for example (who complains about everything to me), has only once had parents step in with a student's problems.  And that was only because another faculty member accused the student of cheating, which may or may not have been happening.  (And if it was, probably a less draconian punishment/resolution would have been the wiser course of action.  Particularly seeing as there wasn't definitive proof.  That faculty member left a year or so later...)

 

Our secretary used to work in admissions and at the registrars. She has parent stories... oh my. Parents calling and offering her bribes (or threatening to sue) to get their kids into classes that are full.

 

It depends a lot in which function you are on campus. In my decade of teaching, I only had two parents request to speak with me. One was a private family issue, and it made sense that te parent wanted to talk with me. The other was a dad of a kid who had been dropped from the same course for the THIRD time (3 semesters ina  row) becasue he did not attend class and did not turn in assignments..I chose to be unavailable to meet with this father.

But admissions/registrar or department chair is another story.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

This topic gave me nightmares.  DS had decided last night was the night to finish a scholarship application (prompted by an email that told him it hadn't been received and they needed it first thing Monday morning). DS is going on a Scout campout this weekend and will be gone until Sunday night so he chose to finish the application last night.  At 11:15pm he hit submit and ....poof, the application page reset, all of his work was gone and he could no longer log on to the site because it was a one shot, timed application. :glare: :banghead:

 

Of course, no one was in the office at that hour and he had to be in school before the opening of the work day.  He asked me to call for him and let him know what to do.  All I could think about was being the over-involved parent and how that would ruin his chances of moving on to the interview stage.  As a result, I tossed and turned all night and awoke this morning feeling defeated and uncertain.  :willy_nilly: To my wonder and happiness, DS slept through his alarm (first time ever) and missed the beginning of school.  He was here to make the phone call, handle the technical difficulties and resubmit the application.  All I had to do was call the high school and have him excused from first hour for 'college business'. :001_cool:

[hornblower]

This topic gave me nightmares.  DS had decided last night was the night to finish a scholarship application (prompted by an email that told him it hadn't been received and they needed it first thing Monday morning). DS is going on a Scout campout this weekend and will be gone until Sunday night so he chose to finish the application last night.  At 11:15pm he hit submit and ....poof, the application page reset, all of his work was gone and he could no longer log on to the site because it was a one shot, timed application. :glare: :banghead:

 

OMG how stressful!!!

Glad it all worked in the morning. Stupid technology!

[In The Great White North]

 

 

Our secretary used to work in admissions and at the registrars. She has parent stories... oh my. Parents calling and offering her bribes (or threatening to sue) to get their kids into classes that are full.

 

Now this is an issue where I think colleges are just begging to have parents get involved.  It's often a mandatory course the kid needs to graduate.The parents pay thousands of dollars only to find out the kid can't graduate, and the colleges expect them to not complain!

 

The college can't manage enough prior planning to schedule enough sections of required classes to fit all the students?  That's fairly easy to solve.  They know how many kids come every year, so they know how many kids have to take each required course.  If they don't have space in the room (physically), they need to admit fewer students.  If they have the room (physically), they need to hire enough professors to teach enough sections for all the kids. Period.  Prioritize that over the new climbing wall.

 

I am actually surprised more schools haven't been sued over this - as a breach of contract. (They entered into a contract with the students to provide a college education and are not fulfilling their part of the bargain.)

[regentrude]

The college can't manage enough prior planning to schedule enough sections of required classes to fit all the students?  That's fairly easy to solve.  They know how many kids come every year, so they know how many kids have to take each required course.  If they don't have space in the room (physically), they need to admit fewer students.  If they have the room (physically), they need to hire enough professors to teach enough sections for all the kids. Period.  Prioritize that over the new climbing wall.

 

New climbing wall? I'll have a sad crying fit. At public institutions, there is not enough money for basic building maintenance such as fixing leaky roofs.

 

 

[hornblower]

 (They entered into a contract with the students to provide a college education and are not fulfilling their part of the bargain.)

 

yup. I think too many colleges want to pretend that this is some higher calling - it's a business. They're in the business of providing an education & the students are their customers.

[bettyandbob]

New climbing wall? I'll have a sad crying fit. At public institutions, there is not enough money for basic building maintenance such as fixing leaky roofs.

 

Really? There's a state university in my state that has this amazing aquatics center. It's not just state of the art for being able to have NCAA swim and dive meets. It has an indoor water park rec pool. The rec pool has climbing walls that are used to access some diving boards. I need to make time to visit my neice before she graduates. I love playtime in pools.

 

I think state universities could use more full time faculty over part time adjucts. I don't think they need over the top rec facilities. But I think those in charge think these things are important selling points of the schools.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Now this is an issue where I think colleges are just begging to have parents get involved.  It's often a mandatory course the kid needs to graduate.The parents pay thousands of dollars only to find out the kid can't graduate, and the colleges expect them to not complain!

 

The college can't manage enough prior planning to schedule enough sections of required classes to fit all the students?  That's fairly easy to solve.  They know how many kids come every year, so they know how many kids have to take each required course.  If they don't have space in the room (physically), they need to admit fewer students.  If they have the room (physically), they need to hire enough professors to teach enough sections for all the kids. Period.  Prioritize that over the new climbing wall.

 

I am actually surprised more schools haven't been sued over this - as a breach of contract. (They entered into a contract with the students to provide a college education and are not fulfilling their part of the bargain.)

 

From what I hear, this issue of getting into courses required for graduation is a serious issue in California public universities.  The term here is "impaction" see impacted major and impacted campus.  In essence they have more qualified applicants for a major than they can teach.

 

When Purdue reps were in town, this was the topic of some of the questions.  The Purdue rep made the point that they admitted by college, so they knew in advance how many sections of each course they were going to need.  There is a possibility to apply and enroll as an undeclared major, with the understanding that some degrees will be very competitive to declare into spring of freshman year.  He mentioned a couple like nursing and architecture that could not be declared late, unless the student accepted that they would take more than 4 years to graduate.

 

I think that some of the issue with students not being able to get courses results from students who change majors drastically and find that courses that met requirements for major A are either electives or gen ed for major B and that they are behind the curve in completing their degree.  And of course a student's failing a course means not only repeating that course if it's required, but also delaying anything that course is a prerequisite for.  I took summer school in order to deal with the consequences of failing a course in college. 

 

There was an article locally about changes to community college policies to restrict the number of times that a student could repeat a course (ie, Math 101) if they failed or withdrew.  The new limit (2011) was that a student could only take a course 3 times if they failed or withdrew.  They could petition for a fourth attempt if they demonstrate a hardship that kept them from completing the class previously.  For a 3 credit class, the student pays about $120 and the state pays about $450. 

[In The Great White North]

 

 

The new limit (2011) was that a student could only take a course 3 times if they failed or withdrew.  

How many classes can you fail and still not get kicked out?

[regentrude]

Really?

 

Maybe your state legislation has been paying the promised allocations for higher education. Maybe your tax papers are willing to invest in higher education. That is not the case in other states.

Over a ten year period from 2001 to 2011, state funding for our university has decreased by 44% while at the same time enrollment has increased by 54%. (The number of instructors increased by 7%). For several years, all departments were forced to make drastic budget cuts, were prohibited from filling faculty positions that became vacant due to retirement or relocation, and permanently lost instructor positions. Only over the past year or so, we are seeing a slow restoration of funding levels and have been permitted to fill some of the open positions.

[bettyandbob]

Maybe your state legislation has been paying the promised allocations for higher education. Maybe your tax papers are willing to invest in higher education. That is not the case in other states.

Over a ten year period from 2001 to 2011, state funding for our university has decreased by 44% while at the same time enrollment has increased by 54%. (The number of instructors increased by 7%). For several years, all departments were forced to make drastic budget cuts, were prohibited from filling faculty positions that became vacant due to retirement or relocation, and permanently lost instructor positions. Only over the past year or so, we are seeing a slow restoration of funding levels and have been permitted to fill some of the open positions.

 

I'm not against funding higher ed. I am disturbed by putting money into country club atmosphere stuff and not into funding faculty, research facilities, etc.

 

IOW I don't think a water park type rec pool furthers the mission of most universities (I'm sure there's an example of where such a thing is necessary, so I won't say never).

[regentrude]

I'm not against funding higher ed. I am disturbed by putting money into country club atmosphere stuff and not into funding faculty, research facilities, etc.

 

IOW I don't think a water park type rec pool furthers the mission of most universities (I'm sure there's an example of where such a thing is necessary, so I won't say never).

 

Completely agree.

I clarified my response to you by deleting most of the quoted post. I just meant to respond to the (incredulous sounding) "Really?", not argue in favor of pools.

Sufficient funding for building maintenance, enough classroom space, and instructors would be just fine.

 

We are giving our finals to a portion of our intro classes in the ballroom of the university center because there are not enough large classrooms.

 

[regentrude]

How many classes can you fail and still not get kicked out?

 

I don't know whether there is a limit. I had students fail my same class three times before they finally managed to pull a C.

 

For those who argue that the student is customer, that same logic should dictate that the student should be free to pay for as many attempts as he wishes. (I personally think he should be strongly discouraged from continuing on this path, because three failed attempts at the same course clearly show either a lack of aptitude or attitude)

ETA: This illustrates nicely how a university is not just a business. For any business, it would make sense financially to encourage repeat customers who purchase the product and try to get as little as possible product for their money. Most colleges have many measures in place to reduce this from happening - although financially, the tuition paying student who does not show up to class and hence does not consume any resources or instructor time would be the most profitable one ;-)

(Yes, I know, not sustainable because the reputation would tank...)

[flyingiguana]

My daughter the freshman needed to get into "programming", the next CS course in the CS major sequence.  Problem is, as a freshman, she got to register last.  And the course had already filled up.  In fact, they had 2X or more the number of students wanting to take the class as they had anticipated based on number of majors and previous percentages of non-majors enrolling.

 

Turns out they had just dropped a prerequisite for the course.  A whole bunch of students in related fields found this out and were suddenly signing up in droves.  So none of the freshman CS majors could get into the required class.

 

They did open up a second section, but they have no idea who's going to teach it.  Faculty course loads are already full.  And there's not much time left before the semester starts for them to find someone.  Meanwhile, the freshman are all having a terrible time figuring out how to fit this new section in to their schedule because it's not in the right place in the day to mesh with all the other freshman classes they need.  (This is even harder on my daughter who's a physics/CS double major with a possible music major if she can get around to it. Just about nothing fits together right)

 

So, yeah, things don't always get anticipated.  I can just imagine the faculty meeting when they decided to drop that prerequisite -- "I suppose we might get a few more students from outside the major.  The current class should be able to handle it....."

 

And then, surprise!

 

 

[flyingiguana]

How many classes can you fail and still not get kicked out?

 

Probably a lot -- if the student keeps up their grades in other courses.  Students can get kicked out for having too low a GPA at a lot of colleges, but if there are A's offsetting the F's it could go on awhile.

 

I don't know that I've ever heard of a limit on how many times a student can fail a single course.  Usually they get the message (or the professor tries to give it to them) that it isn't worth another try after once or twice through. 

 

But this depends on what the course is and what the student needs it for.  If it's one of those non-major classes that are required for the major, the student may just keep trying.  I'm thinking of things like chemistry or physics that are required for a bio major.  The student may be a great bio student but unable to get physics.  So they may keep trying.

 

That's different than failing freshman bio twice if you want to be a bio major.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Maybe your state legislation has been paying the promised allocations for higher education. Maybe your tax papers are willing to invest in higher education. That is not the case in other states.

Over a ten year period from 2001 to 2011, state funding for our university has decreased by 44% while at the same time enrollment has increased by 54%. (The number of instructors increased by 7%). For several years, all departments were forced to make drastic budget cuts, were prohibited from filling faculty positions that became vacant due to retirement or relocation, and permanently lost instructor positions. Only over the past year or so, we are seeing a slow restoration of funding levels and have been permitted to fill some of the open positions.

 

I feel like maybe I should spin this off, but is the university restricted in its ability to raise tuition to cover expenses?  Is it not politically feasible (UC tuition rate hike proposals inspired student demonstrations, but then this is California, where one hardly needs an excuse to demonstrate)?  Does the legislature control tuition rates?

 

Just curious about how it's regulated and controlled. 

 

(I have seen climbing walls in at least two public universitites.  They both were in rather new fitness/sports centers.  On the other hand, UMaryland had a gorgeous fitness and aquatic center that cost several million to build and was only a couple of years old.  Then they cut the swim and diving teams because they didn't have enough money in their athletic budget.  :svengo:

[Sebastian (a lady)]

How many classes can you fail and still not get kicked out?

 

The change was specifically within the California community college system.  So I'm not sure there is really a policy of kicking people out for failing classes.  There is an issue of not having enough sections for some courses.  But at one point I went through and compared sections.  There were something like 5-7 times the number of sections of remedial math classes (think Algebra 1 level) as of Math 101 College Algebra (the first semester precalculus class).  So in part this is an issue of students attending who really aren't prepared for college work. 

 

The article I glanced at this morning mentioned something like 7% of students at one campus who were taking a course for the 4th or greater time.  Evidently this is pretty expensive for the state, because of the way that in state students are heavily discounted. 

[MysteryJen]

I think the AD just doesn't like swimming. He is currently at the College of Charleston and just announced plans to shut down the pool and disband the swim team.

 

What happened at Maryland was horrible.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

My daughter the freshman needed to get into "programming", the next CS course in the CS major sequence.  Problem is, as a freshman, she got to register last.  And the course had already filled up.  In fact, they had 2X or more the number of students wanting to take the class as they had anticipated based on number of majors and previous percentages of non-majors enrolling.

 

Turns out they had just dropped a prerequisite for the course.  A whole bunch of students in related fields found this out and were suddenly signing up in droves.  So none of the freshman CS majors could get into the required class.

 

They did open up a second section, but they have no idea who's going to teach it.  Faculty course loads are already full.  And there's not much time left before the semester starts for them to find someone.  Meanwhile, the freshman are all having a terrible time figuring out how to fit this new section in to their schedule because it's not in the right place in the day to mesh with all the other freshman classes they need.  (This is even harder on my daughter who's a physics/CS double major with a possible music major if she can get around to it. Just about nothing fits together right)

 

So, yeah, things don't always get anticipated.  I can just imagine the faculty meeting when they decided to drop that prerequisite -- "I suppose we might get a few more students from outside the major.  The current class should be able to handle it....."

 

And then, surprise!

 

I'm still a little bitter over a particular special topics class offered in my major (an English course on Tolkien and Lewis).  It filled up with upper classmen from outside the major and the only English majors who got in were in the honors program or those who had the instructor as an advisor.  I remember really resenting the fact that this plum, one time only course filled up with students who hadn't had to slog through Modern Literature, Contemporary Literature, Shakespeare, etc.

 

Funny how there wasn't a big line for the James Joyce special studies course.

 

[regentrude]

I feel like maybe I should spin this off, but is the university restricted in its ability to raise tuition to cover expenses?  Is it not politically feasible (UC tuition rate hike proposals inspired student demonstrations, but then this is California, where one hardly needs an excuse to demonstrate)?  Does the legislature control tuition rates?

Just curious about how it's regulated and controlled.

 

I believe that any tuition hike must be approved by the legislature. Not sure about the precise process - but we can't just go and say "the state is not giving us x amount of money, so we need to raise tuition to recoup that amount from the students."

It is not politically feasible. Makes the legislature and the universities look bad. And nobody really WANTS to raise tuition - everybody agrees it is bad and detrimental for students' access to higher education.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I think the AD just doesn't like swimming. He is currently at the College of Charleston and just announced plans to shut down the pool and disband the swim team.

 

What happened at Maryland was horrible.

 

Really?  Grrr.