14yo and school refusal / mood

[bluedarling]

     Mood seems to be a huge factor for dd (almost 14).  Our naturopath seems to just think its typical of the age, but we are really struggling.  Dd has accomplished virtually no schoolwork for 2 weeks.  She comes to "school" but doesn't do the work.  She finds a million and one things to distract her because she doesn't want to do the work.  She says she just can't concentrate. She is incredibly easily irritated and negative. 

     The naturopath has put her on Bio-PMT to help stabilize hormones, and she takes 5-HTP.   This keeps happening every few weeks, such that she'll do well for 2 weeks, then completely accomplish nothing for 2 weeks and be impossible to live with.  The two good weeks are spent trying to make up for the two bad weeks, which is exhausting. She's tired of this, and so are we.  When in these depressive cycles, she complains a lot about her language processing issues (and feeling very misunderstood.)  I think this is a problem...but probably not the whole problem.  (The charter school won't do any testing on her because her standardized testing scores are normal to high, except for grammar and spelling.)  

     What should my first course of action be?   She's been to an audiologist who ruled out APD, and referred us to psychoeducational testing that never happened (2-3 years ago!)  He referred us to the children's hospital, which our naturopath says you can't get into without a referral from one of their docs (apparently not even with a referral!)  We've tried counseling (total waste of time and money.)  Do I set up an appointment for a speech therapist?  or neuropsych?  or pyschiatrist?  I am having difficulty finding who to go to in our location...I don't know who to ask.  The psych who evaluated my boys for ASD/ADD is a possibility (suggested by our naturopath), but when I tried to get dd in previously she declined taking her (I believe because she was full...but it seemed a lame excuse....that would just mean a waiting list.)  I could try again.  I know she does the tests like the school does...but I don't think she is a neuropsych.  Is there a better way to find the right person?

      My best guess is that she has depressive ADD and a language problem of some kind (and it would probably be helpful to determine where her language problem is exactly.) As a preschooler she received help for an expressive language delay.  Now she struggles both with expressive and receptive to some degree.  We constantly laugh at what she "hears" at times (unfortunately she no longer is laughing with us.)  And when she tries to explain things to us, she frequently does not make any sense to us....now instead of trying to explain further she just says, "I said pink fluffy elephants" if she is in a good mood, or rages if she's in a bad mood about how no one understands her. She feels this has caused her to have few friends, and she gets laughed at both at home and outside activities.  Sometimes the confusion is caused by using the wrong word (sometimes her word is similar to the correct word, sometimes not.)  Sometimes she isn't giving all the necessary info for us to have any clue what she is talking about (like we came in half way through her thought process...which is a lot of jumps from where one would expect.)  Other times she may be trying to use a saying, but not using it correctly, so its just confusing.  Most of the time, I have no clue what the problem is.  I just can't make any sense of it.

     Academically, she can read but hates it.  Her writing reflects her poor speech/grammar, but she has really good organization, which is likely why state testing scored her passing.  Math is usually good, though she makes careless errors. (She failed state testing in math, but I think it was more a scope/sequence issue. Could also have been that she was in a depressive state the day of the math test...I don't recall.)  I don't think the academics is the primary concern, though it could certainly be improved.  She hates school (homeschool) and wants to go to public school, which is the current plan next year.  I would like to set her up for the possibility of success though by knowing what she needs.

    I know I've posted about these issues in years past, and we've yet to make any progress.  Now she's almost 14 (where does time go?)  I'm really going to try to follow through this time!

[OneStepAtATime]

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

 

No expertise here but if I were in your shoes I would get an evaluation through a neuropsychologist ASAP, preferrably one that is an expert in very bright kids with learning challenges (2e) and go from there.  The other thing I would do is reevaluate all that your child is doing and see if there is any way to consolidate some things, maybe outsource some things and really give her ample opportunity to pursue outside interests while you seek additional answers.  Get her fired up about life again, with something she believes in to focus on.

 

And I would not emphasize when she says something incorrectly.  It obviously isn't helping to improve whatever the issue is and is probably making her very self-conscious and defensive.  DS is very verbal but sometimes things come out wrong or he skips over important parts.  When it is necessary I gently try to find what is missing but DD and DH constantly correct him. It has caused psychological harm and does nothing to actually fix the underlying issue.  

 

Hugs.  I know this is frustrating. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

Our pediatrician (allopathic) had a list of neuro-psychs in our area.  We were referred through him after going through the list and choosing one.  It didn't solve all of our problems but it did give us some further insight into issues.  

[EKS]

Is it possible she has dyslexia? The symptoms you described sound similar to my son (who has dyslexia). I agree that a neuropsych eval would be your best bet.

[PeterPan]

Yup, very possibly dyslexia and adhd.  You need a neuropsych who specializes in dyslexia.  And yes, a speech eval.  The SLP can run APD and phonological processing testing and look in-depth for language problems.  I'm cringing a little bit, not really understanding what you mean about laughing at her.  My ds has apraxia, which when not diagnosed as such usually gets called an expressive language delay.  There are all sorts of nuances to language that, between the apraxia and his dyslexia, are NOT natural.  I'd caution you to lay off the laughing until you get fresh evals.

 

And what's very possibly happening, or at least the way it rolls with my dd, is she works hard, gets WORN OUT, then cycles down into that.  Try to even out and lower her workload.  If she has these disabilities, she may be working very hard to do very average amounts of things.  You may need to grade adjust, cut her load down to 4 hours a day, and make sure she's getting enough sleep and down time.

[bluedarling]

Yup, very possibly dyslexia and adhd.  You need a neuropsych who specializes in dyslexia.  And yes, a speech eval.  The SLP can run APD and phonological processing testing and look in-depth for language problems.  I'm cringing a little bit, not really understanding what you mean about laughing at her.  My ds has apraxia, which when not diagnosed as such usually gets called an expressive language delay.  There are all sorts of nuances to language that, between the apraxia and his dyslexia, are NOT natural.  I'd caution you to lay off the laughing until you get fresh evals.

 

And what's very possibly happening, or at least the way it rolls with my dd, is she works hard, gets WORN OUT, then cycles down into that.  Try to even out and lower her workload.  If she has these disabilities, she may be working very hard to do very average amounts of things.  You may need to grade adjust, cut her load down to 4 hours a day, and make sure she's getting enough sleep and down time.

 

Thanks...I put feelers out tonight to help me look for a SLP.  I think when I was looking into this last year insurance wouldn't cover SLP except for an autism dx, so I dropped it, but we can probably afford it now....not sure about covering both SLP and neuropsych, though.  Is there one I should pursue first over the other?

We're not trying to make fun of her...its just some of the mistakes are comical, so people laugh.  If she weren't so sensitive about the issue, she'd laugh too (she used to.)   I'll try talking to the rest of the family about trying to watch it, knowing that she's sensitive.  Its just hard not to laugh at the silliness of the words sometimes.  No one is intentionally belittling her.

 

We laugh in the same way at the things her brother does (but he usually laughs with us.)  He does things like put the oatmeal canister in the fridge and the milk in the pantry, and other silly things as a part of his ADD.  Its funny because we know he didn't intentionally do it.  Its just a loveable quirk that brings laughter to our lives.

 

I've done similar things myself (just with far less frequency.)  We laugh it off, because what else can you do?  But its not funny if its hurting someone to laugh...so we'll try to keep our laughter to ourselves.

 

Your advice on the cycling down is well received.  Tonight in the car on the way home dd was very proud of herself for accomplishing 1/2 of her work today.  I chided it wasn't good enough, and she became very defensive.  She was doing it all for 2 months...and now she's proud of 1/2?  The work hasn't become any more difficult.  (She did it all in 3 hours a couple times at the beginning of the year.)  But now reading your explanation...perhaps she was right to celebrate.  I could probably drop Latin (I was hoping it would be a back door to vocab building and grammar, but no one is requiring it), and the research paper for social studies (great experience, but perhaps she isn't ready)....that would make her very happy.  I could drop the math supplements, or do them less frequently.  So, there are things I could do to shorten her day.  They may make her slightly less prepared for 9th...but I do recall our VT doc (for the boys, not dd) saying if I put them in school be sure to put them in one grade behind to allow time to adjust.  Perhaps that's a good plan...she'd most certainly be ready for 8th next year no matter how much she accomplished this year, and that would certainly take the pressure off!  Good things to think about!

[bluedarling]

Is it possible she has dyslexia? The symptoms you described sound similar to my son (who has dyslexia). I agree that a neuropsych eval would be your best bet.

 

It is possible.  When she was learning to read, it was hard for her.   She confused b and d, etc.   She has short term memory impairment and has trouble ordering syllables.  Compared to her older brother, her symptoms were mild....but she definitely has had dyslexic tendencies.  However, the school refuses to test her due to high reading comprehension scores.  Based on siblings testing as gifted, my guess is that she is 2e, but she feels like I overestimate her intelligence.

[Terabith]

I definitely agree with speech and neuropsych evals pronto.  But, the obvious thing to me with the cycling every few weeks is puberty.  That will wreck havoc with even the most well balanced kiddo with no issues.  And it's completely normal for her to be increasingly frustrated and less amused by her mistakes.  Even if they are funny, of course she is going to be acutely sensitive to them and embarassed.  When is her birthday?  How would she feel about a grade adjust? 

 

 

[Ottakee]

I would take her to the doctor for a physical and blood work.  If hormones, vit levels, thyroid, etc. are off at this age it can really affect mood.

 

I think a neuropysch and maybe a regular psychiatrist would be a good option.  The cycling of behavior could indicate a mood disorder.

[Tsuga]

I don't want to dismiss your family's struggles, but to me monthly cycling and moodiness are not necessarily signs of pathology. As irritating as it may be, extreme (non-violent) moods, frustration, and monthly cycling are totally normal for 13/14-year-old girls. I believe I spent two weeks out of every month for the entire eighth and ninth grades in my bedroom. And no, I didn't do homework. I nearly failed a class, then the fail woke me up, and I got off my butt and got to it.

 

It wouldn't hurt to get her someone to talk to but what you describe sounds like at least half the teenagers I know. I don't think I know a ton of really messed up kids.

 

Eighth grade is really hard!

 

 

She confused b and d, etc.

 

Confuses, like now? Or confused? It is normal, in spite of what some school districts and parents of exceptionally gifted children would have us believe, to mix those two and many others up until seven. http://www.heidisongs.com/blog/2012/03/signs-of-dyslexia.html

[bluedarling]

I definitely agree with speech and neuropsych evals pronto.  But, the obvious thing to me with the cycling every few weeks is puberty.  That will wreck havoc with even the most well balanced kiddo with no issues.  And it's completely normal for her to be increasingly frustrated and less amused by her mistakes.  Even if they are funny, of course she is going to be acutely sensitive to them and embarassed.  When is her birthday?  How would she feel about a grade adjust? 

 

 

I don't want to dismiss your family's struggles, but to me monthly cycling and moodiness are not necessarily signs of pathology. As irritating as it may be, extreme (non-violent) moods, frustration, and monthly cycling are totally normal for 13/14-year-old girls. I believe I spent two weeks out of every month for the entire eighth and ninth grades in my bedroom. And no, I didn't do homework. I nearly failed a class, then the fail woke me up, and I got off my butt and got to it.

 

It wouldn't hurt to get her someone to talk to but what you describe sounds like at least half the teenagers I know. I don't think I know a ton of really messed up kids.

 

Eighth grade is really hard!

 

 

Confuses, like now? Or confused? It is normal, in spite of what some school districts and parents of exceptionally gifted children would have us believe, to mix those two and many others up until seven. http://www.heidisongs.com/blog/2012/03/signs-of-dyslexia.html

 

Yes, that is what the naturopath advised, as well...normal moodiness, and she suggested the bio-PMT to help with monthly moodiness.  This child has always had struggles in this regard, though.  This is not new with her age.   My gut tells me this is more, but I can't say with absolute certainty that is the case.  I was told the same thing when she was 9...blame it on the onset of puberty.  This has been a consistent issue her whole life, though the difficult ages seem to intensify matters.  Even if it is the age, we've reached a point where we must deal with it somehow (even to the point that maybe we should just put her in school now, and forget her tailored curriculum this year.)  Talk therapy was a waste of time and money....we've already tried that.

 

Her age puts her squarely in 8th this year, but she is somewhat open to the idea of retention.  Actually I had retained her in 4th due to slow reading, then skipped her ahead back to grade level in 7th because she seemed to be doing well.  However, 7th and 8th since the grade jump have not been well tolerated.  She tests fine, though.  She is just easily frustrated/overwhelmed.  Perhaps some testing will help with that decision, as well as talking with her next school.

 

ETA:  oh, and on b/d confusion, she rarely confuses them anymore.  I'm not sure what age she stopped confusing...I am certain she was still doing it when we moved at 9yo, but it never caused enough issue to seek treatment.

[Tsuga]

I see. Yes, 9 is definitely past the age where that is normal.

 

Some people are moody. I am. :( I know that it is harder to live with moody people but if she's at grade level then it sounds like you're doing a good job!

[Ottakee]

Yes, that is what the naturopath advised, as well...normal moodiness, and she suggested the bio-PMT to help with monthly moodiness.  This child has always had struggles in this regard, though.  This is not new with her age.   My gut tells me this is more, but I can't say with absolute certainty that is the case.  I was told the same thing when she was 9...blame it on the onset of puberty.  This has been a consistent issue her whole life, though the difficult ages seem to intensify matters.  Even if it is the age, we've reached a point where we must deal with it somehow (even to the point that maybe we should just put her in school now, and forget her tailored curriculum this year.)  Talk therapy was a waste of time and money....we've already tried that.

 

 

 

Mom's instinct is usually correct.  If the moodiness/depression is a longer standing issue and not just hormone related then it is certainly worth checking out.