s/o A Soap-box for Pawz (or Let's Talk About Alternative Dog Nutrition)

[Spy Car]

So how much do you feed them? Do you rotate? Where do you buy the fish?

 

I don't have a spare freezer. It died and I haven't replaced it and won't be able to for a long time.

 

Also, can you do a mix of cooked and raw food?

The amount of food is based on observation. It gets to be "second nature."

 

I do rotate what I feed. Sometimes there is more variety than others depending on what I can source. I generally attempt to roughly "balance" meals and the daily ration with respect to meat, bone, and organ ratios, but the more important idea is to balance these things over time.

 

The one caveat about "diversity" is that it seems best to introduce one protein source (usually people start with chicken) and stick with that for a bit before slow adding a second source, and so on. Too much variety too soon tends to cause digestive upset.

 

I usually get my fish at one of two seafood -oriented supermarkets in the area that serve the Filipino community. Since the oily fish that is so good for dogs (and people) is regrettably not in fashion among most humans in our society, I can get things like mackerel, pike, and sardines for as little as $1 a pound. Salmon and trout from the Pacific Northwest should not be fed raw.

 

I could not do this w/o a second "dog fridge" or freezer. There are commercially available raw ground products that require less freezer space, but they are an expensive option for large or high energy dogs, and it's just not the same.

 

As to mixing cooked and raw, I'm not a "purist" here and don't see why not. The thing you don't want to do is feed cooked bone due to risk of splintering. But I will occasionally make a meal of cooked meat, organs, and offal (and eggs, and maybe even a bit of vegetable), just to give a variety of experiences.

 

The one warning held as conventional wisdom by most people feeding raw is that one should not mix a raw diet with kibble. The arguement for this is twofold. The first arguement is that dogs digest meat, bones, and organs very rapidly. They have a short digestive tract, and that getting nutrients in an waste out quickly is optimal and protective to health. Feeding grains, the arguement goes, a food type that is not considered biologically appropriate, slows the digestive process way down. The second arguement is related, it's that the ph of the stomach acids in purely raw fed dog is very highly acidic, which is protective against pathogens in a way the human digestive system is not. It is said that a kibble based diet (or a mix) reduces the acidity of the digestive juices and that the combined effect of less protective acids and a slower gut makes dogs that are naturally well evolved to deal with food pathogens more vulnerable.

 

Bill

[Liz CA]

I'm middle-ground on the veggies and fruit.

 

For those who don't know, there are split camps in the raw feeding world between "BARF model" feeders (who generally include vegetables, fruit, a higher amount of bone, and have a greater acceptance of ground meats and mixes) and "Prey Model" feeders (who tend to generally avoid vegetables and fruit, feed less bone, and strongly prefer large whole pieces of meat, bone, and organ that dogs have to work at to eat).

 

I occasionally feed a small amounts of either cooked and mashed vegetables (like pumpkin or sweet potato) or juiced/pulped raw greens. I do it to (hopefully) add some micronutrients that may be lacking in commercially raised meat, and not in amounts intended to provide much in the way of calories. Just my best hunch on this "controversial" issue.

 

 

Bill

 

I feed my mastiff raw carrots and celery in his KONG toy. He loves them. I sure hope this cannot harm him. He looks great, is active and has no skin disorders or arthritis even though he is almost 5 years old and about 135lb.

[Spy Car]

I feed my mastiff raw carrots and celery in his KONG toy. He loves them. I sure hope this cannot harm him. He looks great, is active and has no skin disorders or arthritis even though he is almost 5 years old and about 135lb.

I'd be shocked if eating a raw carrot caused a dog harm. But be unsurprised if it came out looking pretty much the way it looked doing down. It seems like dogs digestive systems are not well adapted to breaking down cellulose so it passes though as mostly indigestible fiber. Hardly the end of the world.

 

I know my guy loves eating carrots roasted with a little coconut oil, so he get a little on occasion. My hope, as I mentioned earlier, is that small amounts of plant based food might supply micronutrients that might be lacking otherwise.

 

As you know, but others readng the thread might not, the issues around dogs "carnivore" status is a bit of a hot-potato in raw feeding circles. But where there is unanimity is that dogs are not well-suited to eating the very heavy carbohydrate loads found in a kibble based diet.

 

Bill

[Pawz4me]

I've been feeding raw carrots to dogs for decades.  Lots of dog people use baby carrots as treats.  I've never heard of a dog having a problem with them, although of course there's always room for an exception.

 

I can't address celery.  It's not something I like, so not something I've ever fed my dogs.

[ktgrok]

What do you do about getting adequate bone in the diet with cooked meals? 

 

Getting the right ratio of raw edible bone seems vital for health and maintaining the right calcium/phosphorus balance in a dog's diet (as meat alone is imbalanced).

 

One can't feed cooked bones (as they splinter) where soft raw bones (not recreational bones) provide necessarily nutrients and "balance" to the diet. How do cooked diets deal with that?

 

Bill

 

This is my HUGE beef (pun intended) with people that cook for their dogs, but don't follow a recipe of any kind, or add supplements. (full disclosure, former certified vet tech). I know someone that feeds chicken breast and rice. Period. Nothing else. No added fat, no organ meat, no bones, no calcium supplement, nothing. Totally unbalanced. She refuses to listen. Lots of people do this. All the time. Drives me crazy. We would happily print out recipes for people that wanted to cook, with the right amount of bone meal, etc added to it. 

 

A way around this, that my parents used to do for their dogs long ago, was to pressure cook whole chickens. The bones would turn to mush if you cooked them that way, long enough,a nd the dogs would eat the whole thing, mashed up. 

 

My issue with raw is not in regards to dog's health, it very likely is great for dogs. It is the issue of salmonella contamination and human health. Salmonella has been found in dog saliva after the dog eats raw chicken, and they certainly can spread that to humans. My dogs love to lick the kids' faces and hands, and I worry about that a big. not enough to totally avoid raw foods, but enough that at this point, with littles in the house that I don't trust to wash their hands, we feed kibble and supplement with home cooked foods (a variety). We also do occasional raw bones, but fed outside, and with fingers crossed. 

 

http://www.veterinarypracticenews.com/November-2012/Raw-Diets-Linked-To-Salmonella/

http://www.fda.gov/AnimalVeterinary/ResourcesforYou/AnimalHealthLiteracy/ucm373757.htm

http://www.fda.gov/AnimalVeterinary/ResourcesforYou/AnimalHealthLiteracy/ucm373757.htm#Tips_to_Prevent_Foodborne_Illness_from_Raw_Pet_Food

Which reminds me, I need to get some bones tomorow, when we go to the butcher. 

 

That said...honestly, there are bigger issues. If you can and want to feel higher quality food, great. But at the same time, in the other thread, someone said they won't get a dog because (partly) they can't afford raw food. Well, honestly, a shelter dog would rather be adopted and have love and attention and generic food than be euthanized for lack of a home. We have too many dogs in this world with no homes to worry that much about what we feed them. My dogs are rescues, one was born at the shelte and one was found on the side of the road with head trauma at 6 weeks, and I am fairly certain they are happy to be here, even eating regular old kibble. If I had to feed raw I couldn't afford both of them. Just something to keep in mind. 

[bluedotsmom]

This has been a very informative thread!  I have a couple of questions, what soft bones are best?  My dog is a 70 lb lab mixe & i think bones would a great, first improvement to his diet!

Next, what are recreational bones, is that like Nylabones?

 

Thank you!

Anne in Arkansas

[hornblower]

This has been a very informative thread!  I have a couple of questions, what soft bones are best?  My dog is a 70 lb lab mixe & i think bones would a great, first improvement to his diet!

Next, what are recreational bones, is that like Nylabones?

 

Thank you!

Anne in Arkansas

 

For a dog that size, my preferred soft bone would be chicken backs, turkey necks or lamb necks.  Lamb shanks can also work but I've had probs with them shattering recently. Large rib bones. My guys like elk but I hate the smell LOL.

 

A recreational bone is something like a buffalo knuckle. For a recreational bone, I go for something about the size of a dog's skull. It doesn't have much meat on it, but it will have cartilage. It looks like this http://www.fullcirclebisonranch.com/organic-pastured-buffalo-knuckle-bones-4-lbs/

 

You can also use regular beef soup bones, the ones that have marrow inside, but beware that marrow can cause upset tummy in some dogs. I know some people who scoop out about 50% of it with a knife before giving it to their dog.  Do make sure to get a long piece - about 5 inches long - because your size dog can get the short 2 inch pieces stuck on their bottom jaw, over their canines.  Butchers will often sell these to you at whatever size you ask.

 

ETA - oh, should go without saying but.... always raw. Not the smoked 'dinosaur' bones that some pet stores sell.

 

if you have a dog with sensitive tummies, washing the bone in running water or just dipping in a pot of boiling water for a few seconds makes a world of difference. Do not cook the bone - cooked bones are not safe.

 

[hornblower]

oh & I've noticed a huge difference between bones from free range animals & conventional. I swear the conventional feedlot bones are way more brittle.  I have a power chewer & can't do regular cow knuckles anymore because I was seeing some alarming shards coming off it.  The free range beef & esp the buffalo bones are quite a bit more durable. Many, many hours of play :)

[bluedotsmom]

Thank you, hornblower! 

[Spy Car]

This has been a very informative thread!  I have a couple of questions, what soft bones are best?  My dog is a 70 lb lab mixe & i think bones would a great, first improvement to his diet!

Next, what are recreational bones, is that like Nylabones?

 

Thank you!

Anne in Arkansas

 

Soft bones (with significant meat attached) are called "Raw Meaty Bones" (RMBs) in raw-world. These are consumed in their entirety by dogs. Basically all chicken and poultry bones are soft and edible. A chicken drumstick is a favorite here, as are necks and feet. Wings have a "hook" that can be problematic. Size matters, especially if you have a "gulper." So for a big dog (like yours) a relatively big turkey neck might be better than a chicken neck to start. It depends, and it is wise to supervise to make sure dogs learn to chew (as opposed to swallowing whole). Bigger tends to be better. Other good RBMs include things like beef necks and ribs. Rabbit and Duck bones are good.  Breast bones from lamb are very nice. What RMBs are not are "load-bearing" bones from large animals like cattle.

 

Recreational bones tend to have little or no meat (but may have connective tissue). They are generally "gnawed" as opposed to being eaten. There are risks to teeth cracking when dogs chew the hard weight bearing bones of large animals and I personally don't risk hard bones when a neck bone or rib will do. The dog did go to town on Tuesday spending hours chewing on the lower leg bones of a sheep. He was "blissed out" the rest of the day.

 

When one feeds bone one needs to balance with meat. 

 

Bill