Getting Fluent

[Ritsumei]

Question, for those who have achieved fluency in a foreign language, particularly as an adult:

How'd you do it?

I can't go live in Japan a couple years; it's not in the cards right now. And I don't have anyone local to chat it up with, other than my kids. So I'm looking for other things. I'm thinking there's got to be something more than curriculum; I took years and years of German in school, but can hardly speak a word (though I used to uderstand a fair amount).

 

Things I am doing:
*listening to the news and a food show in Japanese

*doing some podcast lessons

*endless flashcards

*studying grammar

*talking to my kids in Japanese. After a fashion.

*memorizing verses from the Bible. (I've got nursery rhymes on the schedule, but we haven't dont those yet.)
*Attempting to include Japanese in our math instruction. (It's not true bilingual instruction, but that's the goal.)

*Trying to get a fully Japanese language calendar section of our day off the ground. Like the preschoolers do, only in Japanese.

*Getting corrections from Lang-8.com.

 

There's progress, and part of me is really encouraged, because there's more progress in the past 2 years than there's been since I started trying to learn this language, years ago. But it's sooooo slooooowwwww!! Am I missing something?

[violamama]

That's a great list!

 

Only other things I can come up with:

Can you do any language exchange with somebody in person, maybe have them over for lunch or meet in a coffee shop once a week? 

Do you have a bunch of lessons on podcasts or mp3? When I was studying for the national tests, I used the CDs associated with that. It was helpful to listen to somewhat simplified Japanese and be tested in a way that circled back to confirm comprehension. As the tests went on the conversations were more complex and less simplified, but because it was incremental it was not so slow and overwhelming.

Any way to do an online college course? 

[EmseB]

I know you said you can't go for a couple years to establish fluency, but I find that even being in a country for a couple of weeks helps a lot if you know the basics.  Not that I'm saying that would be any more feasible, but I did learn a foreign language as an adult, I took formal classes for over a year, tested "proficient" and yet, I still think if I went to that country for a month I'd learn more (be more capable with the language) than I did the entire course.  I say this because before that course, I took a minimal amount of Spanish in high school and didn't really "get it" until I spent two weeks in Mexico with a bunch of people who didn't speak English (also in high school), and now aside from the vocab that's atrophied I feel about equally comfortable in both languages (understanding and speaking).

You really do have to be creating the language with people who know it and getting feedback and responses from them, IMO, to become fluent.  Maybe over Skype somehow?

[Arcadia]

Penpal (email) with Jean of Newcastle?

 

Both hubby and I pick up german in university. He retain a lot more as he has colleagues who are german in his office.

 

There are church services in japanese here and also japanese storytime at the library. When you say local, not sure if you meant neighborhood or regional.

 

Or host a japanese exchange student?

[myfunnybunch]

Be patient.

 

I have not achieved fluency in another language myself, but we host university exchange students in the U.S. to study English. They typically arrive having studied English for 5-7 years, beginning in middle or high school. Typically, they are almost/mostly conversationally fluent in basic informal conversation about families, food, daily activities, but it is a challenge and they will say that they believe their English is poor/fair. 

 

I'd encourage you to find a native speaker as a tutor or conversation partner. They can help correct pronunciation and grammar errors.

 

If you can have an immersion experience of some kind, even if it's for a couple weeks, it will help. When surrounded by the language you want to learn, your brain can't switch back to "easy" mode once you're done studying.

 

The suggestion to host an exchange student is a great one. It's a good experience anyway! Our current Japanese student has been helping my dd who's studying Japanese at the university.

 

And it takes time. Even with the time/dedication you're showing, 2 years isn't enough (as an adult) to reach close to fluency. Hang in there. Acquiring another language is definitely one of those "marathon not a sprint" activities, except there's not really a finish line. You can always keep on learning! Keep it up!

 

Cat

[wintermom]

I've achieved fluency in 2 foreign languages as an adult, but only through immersion. Being forced to speak and function in the language, hearing it spoken and written well all around, were the keys. 

 

All the things you are doing are great, and will lay a good foundation to make fluency quicker, but they may not be enough to become fluent. 

[regentrude]

Be patient and keep doing what you are doing.

 

I have achieved fluency in two foreign languages, without living in a country where they were spoken, after 8+ years of instruction (4-5 hours per week through fluent teacher) in school.

2-3 years of French study as an adult with weekly lessons from a native speaker, watching movies, and a biweekly conversation group have not gotten me fluent in French. I can read reasonably well, can write if I can take my time and consult a dictionary, but my conversation skills are not adequate.

 

Achieving fluency without immersion will take many years. With total immersion, of course, it's much quicker.

[Amira]

I think that it's important to have reasonable expectations. Learning a language is a major time investment and fluency is unlikely without immersion. And even if you achieve basic fluency (as in being able to speak well, but not with native proficiency), you would have to work hard to maintain it if you're not using it frequently in everyday life.

 

I wouldn't consider myself fluent in any language besides English, but that doesn't mean that the languages I do know are useless to me. I just can't devote the time necessary to maintaining old languages and learning new ones and live my life. I think it takes at least 10 hours a week (either in classes or self-study) to move forward in a language at a reasonable rate. It's a full time job, literally, to get to fluency in Japanese in two years as an adult.

Keep at it!  Language acquisition is a lot of work.

 

Also, I think that a lot of monolingual Americans use the term "fluent" a bit too casually.  I like the levels that the Europeans use when measuring language learning: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_European_Framework_of_Reference_for_Languages

 

Perhaps you would feel better about your progress if, instead of measuring it against the mountain of "fluency", measured against these more intermediate goals?

[MasaMama]

Are there any universities nearby? If so, you might be able to find some Japanese students.

 

They can't work and get paid with only student visa, so maybe you could teach them English in exchange, or you could invite them for dinner to show them the American culture if they are comfortable. 

 

Some universities have "foreign student host family program". Your family can become a host family to a student. You could invite them for Thanksgiving dinner and stuff like that. Since he/she is local not coming to stay with you, I think it could be easier to get started and get a feel for. 

 

Good luck and happy learning!

[duckens]

1) If there is a local university, crash the "Japanese Student Club" or whatever they have.  What's the worst they will do to you?

2) I've been warmly received by the local Chinese students (strangers) as I accost them on the street.  I ask if they speak Chinese; then I use my limited Chinese skills to tell them that I have 3 cats, and one of them is fat.  :)  No one has run screaming away from me yet.  They are patient and helpful to assist me to fix my pronunciation.

3 )I've had good experiences with My Language Exchange to find conversational language practice. 
Other details:
--Everyone with whom I interact speaks much better English than I speak Chinese.
--A membership is free, so you can sign up and explore the website, but to actually contact someone, you need to pay a modest fee.
--My partners are on the other side of the world, so they are on opposite time schedules as I am.  The bad news is that I need to wake early in the morning if I want to talk with my guys; the good news is that I can converse with them before the kids and I start our day.  It doesn't interrupt family or teaching time.  However, you can look for a partner in your same country (U.S.?) or time zone for ANY language.
--You can request a partner of a specific gender or age.

[Ritsumei]

Thank you. Now that I've worked through a certain amount of frustration, there is a lot of good encouraging things here. :) I realized, too, that my 2yo doesn't speak English very well. My 4yo has an adorable lisp -a munchkin "accent," if you will, and my 8yo still asks about more difficult words and idioms relatively regularly. Maybe, I might be expecting a lot of myself, lol. I am prone to that, from time to time.

 

So. I guess I'll keep my eyes open for opportunities for real conversations with real people (including checking the websites mentioned), and just keep on keepin' on. Must be doing something ok: everybody's learning new words. Even the 2yo has several.

[Tsuga]

I think that it's important to have reasonable expectations. Learning a language is a major time investment and fluency is unlikely without immersion. And even if you achieve basic fluency (as in being able to speak well, but not with native proficiency), you would have to work hard to maintain it if you're not using it frequently in everyday life.

 

I wouldn't consider myself fluent in any language besides English, but that doesn't mean that the languages I do know are useless to me. I just can't devote the time necessary to maintaining old languages and learning new ones and live my life. I think it takes at least 10 hours a week (either in classes or self-study) to move forward in a language at a reasonable rate. It's a full time job, literally, to get to fluency in Japanese in two years as an adult.

 

Having learned two languages as a young adult, I agree with this completely. I have never learned a language without immersion. Even with immersion, without studying two hours per night, I didn't achieve anything more than "home / market" fluency--i.e. as long as we talked about the meal, the weather, or the price, I was "fluent" but otherwise my vocabulary was limited.

 

I can discuss science and literature in two languages, I can listen and read in one more, and I can read in one more.

 

The language in which I am fluent, I lived overseas in that environment for five years, in two consecutive chunks, in a work environment in which my paycheck depended on speaking that language.

 

If you can hold a conversation after two years of study you are doing AMAZINGLY well. Keep it up. Someday there will be time for a vacation in Japan and you will make leaps and bounds there--and you will be glad for the foundation.

 

Also, I know Soviets who studied English for decades without ever speaking to a native speaker. They were able to hold intelligent, long, meaningful conversations with me after just a few times getting used to my accent. So it IS possible.

[Ritsumei]

Also, I know Soviets who studied English for decades without ever speaking to a native speaker. They were able to hold intelligent, long, meaningful conversations with me after just a few times getting used to my accent. So it IS possible.

 

This is so incredibly encouraging. Thank you. Also very encouraging is the book I picked up this afternoon. I've been building a small library of Japanese picture books. Mostly, they're too hard for me, but today Tigress brought me one of them, and I had another go at it -- and understood about 75% of the couple pages I got through before I had to go do Mom Things. So exciting!

 

Thanks so much, everyone, for the encouragement.