I am an ineffectual consequences-machine. Help me help him!

[violamama]

I think I'm doing this wrong. 

 

My 8 (almost 9) year old has a tough time with the following:
completing tasks quickly (remaining involved)

completing tasks well

initiating the next task when a task is done

engaging in group activities (at Classical Conversations, for example)

wanting me to come into the dressing room at swimming because that way he won't play for 40 minutes accidentally

wanting me to sit with him for every piano practice even late in the week when I know he could work through his list of assignments on his own. If I don't start the week with him he will learn things in the wrong octaves or sometimes just totally wrong notes/rhythms even though he is capable of doing it well. We teach him by asking lots of questions. At some point, will he ask himself a question or two??? Will he always ask me to drive this train???????

 

From the outside, you may not see what I see. He's improved a lot in the last 18 months and no longer acts nutty or disruptive. When he applies himself his work is always excellent and he says he likes school. "School is actually pretty fun!" Unfortunately, I see him continually fail to apply himself to just about anything besides his own playtime or reading. He's not getting distracted by outside things, he's not usually over-exuberant, he just starts thinking about something and stares off until I come ask what he's working on or accidentally doodles all over instead of doing math. (From the little I've read, it doesn't seem like ADHD...) It looks to me like this is more of a trait than a maturity-level issue and I desperately want to help him learn to help himself. He has expressed frustration as well, though it's usually because he has yet another consequence he wishes he could avoid. We do things like taking away/earning toys and free time. 

 

I worry that by homeschooling him I am making him into a jellyfish of a mother-needing human without a care for anything outside his own head. 

 

I worry that if we were to put him in ps he would just coast along in the academic equivalent of having his mind's eye glazed over and never apply himself a single tiny bit. He does this already on CC days. 

 

It doesn't help that his younger brother is a people-engaging dynamo who loves learning and puts 1000% into whatever he is doing at any given moment. 

 

I realized today that my sweet 8 year old may think there is something fundamentally disappointing about him and frankly I feel like I am failing him. It is breaking my heart. 

[violamama]

Please? 
Are my expectations too high? 

Are there books I should read? 
Please? 

[Clear Creek]

My 10yo was like this up until a few months ago...something switched in her brain and she became able to follow through on simple things and make herself do things that don't have an immediate reward. I had to do what you mentioned - be at her side for every. little. thing. that I needed her to do, whether it was schoolwork, a chore, or practicing the piano. I still have to sit with her at least once a week while she practices piano to give her confidence to work on what she doesn't already know. I really think it was a maturity issue, and one that only she (of my three kids) had to work on. Not that the others are perfect ( :lol: ) but she really could spend eight straight hours in her room without putting away one thing unless I was standing right there instructing her to put her dirty clothes in the basket, the clean clothes in the dresser, the barbies in their bucket, etc.

 

She still doodles during math unless I am next to her to remind her to go on to the next problem or speak up if she needs help. Sigh.

[Cosmos]

wanting me to come into the dressing room at swimming because that way he won't play for 40 minutes accidentally

wanting me to sit with him for every piano practice even late in the week when I know he could work through his list of assignments on his own.

 

To me this sounds like a kid trying to solve problems. He recognizes something isn't going well and knows that your presence will help it go better. If he knew how to do it himself he probably would.

 

My philosophy has always been to give as much help as a child wants, if I can. Remember dressing a baby and toddler? Did you worry that you would always be dressing him? Of course not. One day your little one says, "I do it MYSELF."

 

When he doesn't need your help anymore, he won't want your help anymore. But if you can give it (moms of many kids may not be able to) you aren't harming him.

 

For what it's worth, my son is very much like yours. I sat through many piano practice sessions and spent many long sessions waiting outside the locker room. So I understand your fears and frustrations. But my son has grown in maturity and so will yours. I don't regret any of the times I helped him be successful. I do regret some of the times I refused to help him when he asked.

[Garga]

I'm more shocked at your younger son doing things 100%. My kids sound an awful lot like your older kid. They have no interest in taking initiative.

 

I've only half-heartedly tried to make them more efficient. Creating lists can help, with each job broken down into tiny pieces. Like rather than, "Clean the playroom" the list would say, "Put away action figures, put away Lego, put cushions back on couch, etc."

 

I've found that my kids need me by their side when doing work, so I can see him wanting you next to him for the piano. Well, now that I'm reflecting on it, my 12 yo has been outgrowing that lately. My 9 yo still mostly wants me right by his side all the time for school-type work.

 

Ok, I just went back and re-read everything you wrote and that's exactly how my kids are. I really thought they were normal. In what ways does this go beyond normal, other than comparing against your younger son?

[mom2att]

Well, based on your siggy, he is a "sensitive deep-thinking person who focuses on life inside his own head 98% of the time." His brother may be more of high achiever and driven to please, but he's not. He's also 8. Just 8. I know that seems old because he's your oldest, but it's not. When your now 2-year-old is 8, you will be amazed at the expectations you placed on your now 8-year-old, who by then will be 14.  By then he should be able to manage the expectations you've outlined above--no, you won't always have to drive the train. But for now, his behavior sounds perfectly normal for the age that he is. A few years can make a BIG difference, especially when it comes to little boys.

 

 

[violamama]

I'm feeling reassured that this is normal. Every once in a while I freak out that I am not helping by helping...

 

I don't know how to determine what is normal or how much it matters anyway. Sometimes I am comparing my own kids, sometimes it's kids I see in cc but don't know well, or music students I have had, but sometimes I just make it up.

 

Thanks for talking me down a bit. My husband and I plan to talk tonight about how to set more reasonable expectations. I think we've been too hard on the little dude lately.

[MrsH]

If you're interested in reading about executive functioning (getting stuff done), I really recommend Smart but Scattered. It helped me have more realistic expectations for dd12, to realize that ds8 has done issues, and that dd5 has a gift in this area. It also gives tons of constructive ways to help our kids develop these skills. Good luck!

[Doodlebug]

You've described my DS (8-1/2). ;) I still sit at the piano with him. Midweek I leave him to play songs through several times, but I'm still in the background -- Moderato, please! Good job... Dynamics this time!

 

I found SWB's audio on independence very helpful for tweaking my expectations... http://peacehillpress.com/index.php?p=product&id=125. DS needs me at his side for math, but I'm able to hover at a distance in 10 minute segments while he completes Latin, cursive, and spelling. Reading is entirely independent. When I take it apart like that, I see the progress. But when I'm stewing in my own worries and frustrations, it all feels like a mess. Be kind to yourself.

 

Definitely rescue him from himself when he asks. DS's issues have caused me to consider that self sufficiency is highly overrated... The fun, the beauty, the joy is all in the context of honoring the relationship. I default to expectations of self sufficiency, so this is largely an external operation for me. But the relief I see in DS's face when I pick up a pencil and write for him to keep a subject from going long, or cutting the goal for the day in 1/2 when I can see the glazed look is setting in, is really rewarding. I'm seeing a gradual improvement in his attitude about school too...

 

Best of luck to you... Definitely more normal than you think!

 

Stella

[Mystie]

I second the SWB talk on independence. It helped me see my expectations on my oldest were off base. She says something like we should expect to be "teacher at elbow" until 10ish. 

[Caribbean Queen]

When you are at home, challenge him to change out of his swim suit quickly. 

Use a stop watch to time him.  Have him guess how long it took.  Tell him how long it took. 

Have him guess how long it would take him if he didn't rush. 

Talk very briefly about how silly it is to take an hour.

Tell him you will give him 15 minutes to change while he is at swimming.  That's plenty of time!  You'll be waiting outside the dressing room.

If necessary, repeatedly practice changing clothes at home.

At the next swimming time, as he is going into the dressing room, tell him to change quickly because you have some chocolate-covered sugar puffs in your bag for him to eat as soon as he is done.  Then start eating them right in front of him. - ha!

If he doesn't make it out of the dressing in room in 15 minutes, make him go home wet next time.  He can sit on a towel lined with a garbage bag. 

  

[dragonflyer]

I agree that you expectations are a bit high to expect an 8-year-old to do things mostly on his own, but there are also ways that you can work toward tast persistence.  Start now with much smaller jobs that he can complete in a short amount of time.  For example: Can you finish putting your cars in the bucket by the time I change the baby's diaper?  Can you complete these 3 math problems while I prep for dinner?

 

I also 2nd Carribean Queen's suggestion that you work on habits.  Changing clothes should go quickly because we have done it so often that we do not have to think about the steps.  Break down each step of the process, let him decide what order it will be done in, then give him a reward (the amount of time it took, or just a high five) when he completes all the steps.  Ex: I walk to this place in the locker room.  I set down my bag.  I take out my trunks and place them next to the bag.  I take off my shoes and socks, sock in the shoes, shoes in the bag.  I take off my pants and underwear, place them in the bag.  I put on my trunks.  I take off my shirt and put it in the bag.  I pick up my bag walk out and get a high five from mom.

Drill all steps same order several times a day until the routine happens without him thinking about it.

[violamama]

Thanks for all the ideas. I've downloaded the SWB lecture but it may be a few days before I have time to listen. 

 

Talking with my husband was helpful, too. We've realized that teaching him from a place of fear is not helping him. My husband in particular worries that our son will have some painful experiences because of his personality type because he himself did (and still does from time to time). It tends to make us both hyper-sensitive to these (perfectly normal) traits. I think we sometimes try to parent him out of any risk of future danger (real or imagined), and that's amplified because as homeschoolers we're "it". Helping him know what to do with adversity is so much better than pretending he will be able to avoid any by controlling it all when he's young... but it's hard to do.

 

Stella, we talked about your post and I felt today like I had permission to "rescue" him. It was much more fun for both of us. It felt more like I was on his side, which I hope will lead him to look for resources around him as he matures. It also helped me focus on him understanding the major concepts in school rather than just getting the answers on the page by himself. 

 

It is one thing to have an ideal but quite another to remember to let it into our daily routine. This homeschooling gig is an unrelenting education for me. 

[kbutton]

I think some of these ideas are great regardless of the root cause, but I do think you are describing ADHD inattentive type. :-) I have one like this, and training goes right over his head. It just does. We can train on the same skills for 2 years, and he's still on the moon when he should be on task.

 

At the very least, a book like Smart But Scattered will help because it addresses how to help with executive functioning tasks. My kiddo has a very slow processing speed, and things just seem to always be going by him about 100 times faster than he can take them all in.

 

Best wishes from someone with a kid just like this.

[SamanthaCarter]

Great thread!

[kiwik]

My eldest is like that and my youngest is the opposite. It is incredibly.frustrating but while it can be encouraged I don't think I can force him to become more self organising. I think it would just make us miserable. Besides I don't think I had to do anything without being told when I was seven but I manage to get myself fed etc as an adult.

[SonshineLearner]

Gosh sweetie!!! Take a breath. The kid is little... you homeschool... it'll be ok!  I'd suggest Marydee Sklar's book because it deals with Executive Function. Classical Conversations, or any co-op, may just be hard for your kiddo. That's ok!!! Some places are hard for us as adults, right???

BrainGym is good! I wouldn't consequence for anything that isn't direct disobedience... and even that you need to evaluate. 

You want a man... and it takes a long time to get there :) 

[violamama]

I listened to swb's independence lecture on the way to work tonight and it was very helpful.

 

I was totally expecting middle grades independence in work from my 8 year old. Frankly, I think that's what I remember being required in school classrooms as far back as my memories go. It's nice to hear a reasonable trajectory for independence and a way to encourage ownership outlined. Thanks for recommending that and all the other comments/ideas.