Is part of providing a quality education simply knowing when to stop?

[plain jane]

I apologize in advance that this will likely get lengthy. I am stuck in the haze of sleep deprivation and my brain is foggy and hazy. I feel like I can't think clearly some days, but this isn't the main point of this thread.

 

I must preface this letting you know that I got what I think was a typical education. I was an honor student at the top of my graduating class. I did really well on the SAT etc. I studied hard, made good grades, but sadly I never learned (or retained for that matter) much of anything. It was simply study for the test, do well, promptly forget all that was learned. My English studies were abysmal although I didn't know it at the time. There is one part of my grade 10 English class that clearly stands out. We had spent a long period of time studying allegory and other literary devices used in a Disney cartoon. . I recall watching it at least 3 times in class as well as at home while my friends and I laughed about and went through our assignments. I also going to watch The Phantom of the Opera as a class and studying that. I don't recall all we did but do remember working tirelessly well into the early hours of the morning to complete the final assignment at the end of the unit ... a diorama(!!!!) of the stage and the cellars of the opera house. I was thrilled when I received 100% for my efforts and then a bonus 10% on top for including a small descriptive write-up. Grade 11 and 12 English classes were better, but marginally so. We were never required to read Dickens and I never (at the time) read classics like Animal Farm or Grapes of Wrath. I did do reading on my own but, not having any proper guidance, tended to gravitate towards crap like Danielle Steele and VC Andrews. :blushing: :ack2: I did read LOTR and Austen as well but clearly was not mature enough to make those my preferred reading material. I do not recall being taught how to write a proper paper but as (luck?) would have it I had a natural ability to write which got me through. Life went on, I went to University, was never going to have kids, blah blah blah.

 

When my oldest was born I heard about WTM when she was about 2. I immediately devoured it and realized that this was the education I wanted for my kids and NOT what I had gone through. My high school really didn't prepare me for post secondary but somehow I managed to get through unscathed. I wanted more for her. So, I gathered almost every resource mentioned in TWTM and we set off. At the same time, I read WEM and began reading through the novels one by one. Not as diligently as I had hoped but my dd was then 4 and I had 2 more little ones to tend to. I made a good dent in those WEM books, but I'd be lying if I said I remember much of any of them now. Whether this is due to my own lack of intelligence, lack of sleep for 13 years or something more, I do not know. But I feel like I may as well have not read them at all some days. We followed WTM very closely for 5 years and for the most part everything was great.

 

When dd was in 5th grade I found myself in the middle of a life altering event/crisis that was to last ~3 years. It changed who I was to the very core and it is only the last 6 months or so that I have been able to find myself again. Needless to say, school went in a whole new direction. I went from following WTM to more of a school-at-home, panic, we are never doing enough approach. I did my best to counteract this by hiring a tutor to help dd through Wheelocks and she managed to get through about 1/2 the book. But gone was the poetry memorization (for the younger kids) and the extensive reading aloud (to the younger kids). Completely gone was my self-education.

 

So, here I am with a dd in 8th grade as well as 3 other school aged kids. I consider it a fabulous night if I can get a consecutive hour of sleep without having to nurse the baby. Most nights, it's 30-45 min. It is slowly killing me. My brain is mush. I'm not even clear if this post is making sense. Add into the mix a terror of a 3 year old who never. sits. still. and needs to be constantly watched and entertained/kept busy and the days are chaos. I don't sit down and read the classics at night. I collapse on the couch! Most nights I "sleep" in my clothes. I've decided to throw myself wholeheartedly into this again and pick up where I left off but I am wondering if it may just be too late? None of the kids are behind; they can read and write effectively and are "above grade level" (I have some friends who are ps teachers and I show them their work from time to time and that has been their feedback) and are proficient at math. But their education for the past 3 years has been far less than MY ideal, and the ideal of those of you who partook in the many Circe threads. ;) My oldest definitely got the better end of the stick in terms of solid early skills (the most reading aloud, the poetry memorization, the sequential history complete with activities and relevant field trips). The other kids did too, but only to an extent. They are definitely more used to the "school-at-home" vibe even though I have tried to keep their curriculum from WTM picks. I think I can pick up with them and head in the direction I want to go but my concern lies with my oldest.

 

As part of my commitment to bettering my homeschool I have once again started reading threads here. I dropped off for quite a long time although I did post/read from time to time. It was mostly when I was in dire need of something or needed to vent. I wasn't really gleaning anything of much importance. So I've stumbled across the Circe threads. I'm not done them, but I can already feel the panic setting in. My own high school (English) education was abysmal. I want so much more for my children. There is plenty more reading that I need to do but I'm sick when I realize I don't have the time. I need time to read the Circe threads, listen to the talks, read the books recommended in the Circe threads, digest it all, and on top of that, read the classics that I didn't read (or no longer remember :banghead: ) so that I can actually do something with my oldest. I don't have the time for all of this. :willy_nilly: I used to study Latin along side of her but that had to drop off and I am back to the beginning with it. Some days I wonder if I had a brain injury, it is scary how little I remember some days. My dd dropped the Latin studies over a year ago and has forgotten a great deal as well and I mourn for the money we spent on that tutor when we will now have to repeat it all over again. I suspect it will come back to her a lot faster

 

I don't know that I can continue to teach my dd and give her the education that I would like her to have. Currently, she is doing very well as she is studious and diligent. I've shown her writing to many adults and their jaws hit the ground when they read it. She's excelling in her grammar studies in R&S8 and has surpassed my grammatical skills- I now have to use the teacher book to mark her work! So embarrassing, I know. I want to be able to take her further. I long to read the Great Books with her and discuss them. But how on earth can I do that when I am so unintelligent myself and my degree really doesn't prepare me to help her with such skills. Literature interests me but also scares the crap out of me because I know it is such an area of weakness. We are not in a bad school district now, but I didn't grow up in a "bad" one either. I speculate that I must have had the great misfortune of having a lousy teacher for those high school English years because, best I can tell, the other subjects were fine and prepared me for university level courses.

 

Perhaps this is the end of the line for me when it comes to teaching dd. She's reading and thoroughly enjoying grappling with the great works of literature. But maybe I am simply not the mom to continue those steps with her? I want to be but I also have the other kids to teach and two l'il guys in diapers that need constant attention. I also have a business I help run and my dh travels extensively so I'm on my own for a lot. I am not smart enough to do this. I read some of the Circe related threads and I can barely grasp the ideas that are being presented, let alone grapple with them and have anything of value to add. I am embarrassed by my own unintelligence and I very well aware of what I don't know. :p The flip side of this all is that I know one of the guidance counsellors at the local high school so I did go and speak with her (at a coffee shop, outside of school hours). I showed her some of dd's work and we discussed what she is reading. The counsellor looked at me and said that she would be absolutely thrilled if her grade 12 graduates were writing as well as dd is. (I almost cried because this really could be more to do with the fact that their graduates are poorly prepared more so than dd being highly accomplished... but I shouldn't sell dd short. She does seem to have a gift in this area).

 

All this to say that I didn't mean to lose 3 years of my (self education) life. Crazy twists and turn of events has led me to where I am now and I need to just take the next step and move forward. After reading all the more intellectually minded threads on this board I am reminded that I am painfully uneducated (or at least educated in the wrong areas) and it's very possible that I am just plain stupid. Oh brain, why art thou so fuzzy all. the. time? So that's my question for you all. As a mom who hasn't read a lot of classics, is not overly philosophically minded, and has issues with mental capacity (I can learn but man I just can't seem to think and remember things the past few months) is part of my providing my dd with a quality education simply knowing that it is time to stop and put her in a b&m school??

[shanezomom]

I don't have any wisdom to pass on, but big hugs to you and your dc in this difficult patch in the road.

[Coco_Clark]

Yes.  I know some people believe that all families should homeschool, and that homeschooling is always superior to any other option.  I am not one of them.  I think it is part of our job as homeschoolers to look honestly at OUR child, and THEIR needs, at OURSELVES and OUR abilities, and at any other options available to us (public school, online school, private school, ect).  Family values are also going to sway things heavily.  Having things like close sibling relationships, freedom of choice in studies, TIME, ect are important.

 

We have an amazing Montessori school nearby, which makes it HARD for me to decide to homeschool every year.   But there are some things (family closeness, freedom, ect) that we'd give up even in the best school, so for now, I'm sticking with it.  

 

On the other hand, I have had two close friends this year send kids off to school for two very different reasons.  It was difficult in one case, and devastating in another.  But in both it was best.  

 

 

Honestly, from what you are writing...  It sounds like you are mostly worried about the quality of education your kids are getting. It sounds high.  Perhaps (lets be honest, probably) higher than your public school option.  You also sound harried though.  If you need "out" for your own health...well that's something to weigh, especially with kids that sound like they'd do *great* in any enviroment.  

[SarahW]

First off, don't think about how you have failed. Think about what you accomplished. Your 8th grader seems well prepared to do awesome in high school. Pat yourself on the back a bit.

 

Second, I hear you about a nursing baby. I haven't had a full night sleep in over a year, and I sometimes wonder if I am about to go insane. If I had a toddler and a 8th grader as well? Pick me up and stick me in the looney bin. Game over.

 

Personally, I think a good high school education is teacher intensive. Discussion. Thorough review of research papers. Dialectic instruction. I don't think there's any shame in recognizing that you're not in a place to do that. Letting go of that expectation, you could focus on providing a quality education for the youngers. 

 

Is public school your only option? Maybe brainstorm about local charters or magnets. Or UMS or cottage schools. And inquire at local private or IB schools and ask if they offer fin aid to high stats students. They may be very interested in having your dd pad their own numbers. Just some ideas.

 

:grouphug:

 

 

[plain jane]

I feel like we were doing ok until I read the Circe threads and those got me doubting everything. They reminded me of why I started this journey in the first place but, at the same time, how under qualified I am to be heading this off.

 

I know I haven't failed them thus far. My oldest, at least, has a good idea of the flow of history, is literate in the different sciences as I have always been consistent with our study of science, and has the solid skills in the areas of grammar and writing. For me, it's the logic and literature aspects that are really taking the wind out of my sails. I was not trained in formal logic and presenting it to her in a coherent and interesting manner has proved difficult. And literature at the high school level is making me beyond nervous. She's already devoured most of Dicken's works, read Moby Dick 3x, gone through Austen and the Bronte sisters and has read classics that, at her age, I never knew existed.

 

I know I can do better for the other kids, but is it too late for this one? Do I put her into the same public system that failed me? Private school is sadly not an option. The schools here run around $25,000+ per year. I don't want to stop but I don't want to fool myself into thinking I can do this when maybe I really shouldn't be.

[MotherGoose]

Hugs to you! How old is the baby? I would not make any decisions in the throes of sleep deprivation. Get baby to sleeping better, get one of the kids to mind the 3 year old on a regular basis so you can think, and then make some decisions. You said they are all "above average" so clearly you aren't failing them. Hang in there mama!

[sassenach]

You sound like you've been through the ringer.  You do not sound stupid.  Quite the opposite.  I could not homeschool sleep exhausted.  As it is, I am doing major outsourcing this year, and I don't have any littles.  My suggestions: enroll her in a B&M or outsource most if not all subjects.  Guilt free.

[Penguin]

One. You sound very intelligent.

 

Two. There is no shame in outsourcing subjects that are not your strength.

 

Three. The fact that you don't remember much (or anything) about the classics you previously read means nothing. I consider myself good at literature (whatever that means...) and I forget books rapidly. I would rather be just one or two chapters ahead of my student so that I can remember the book and participate in a good discussion.

[Pronghorn]

Perhaps your older daughter can work independently in literature. She's already reading the classics, which the public school kids probably aren't doing. Get her some literature guides or an online or video curriculum, and turn her loose to study as well as she can on her own. Most likely, her work will still exceed what they are doing in the public school.

 

Another possibility, get her to take some standardized tests and then apply for private school scholarships. As advanced as she is, she might get a scholarship.

[FloridaLisa]

Part of providing a quality education for our kids is definitely knowing what is working and what isn't and whether that's within our power to change. If she's a great student, outsourcing may be helpful. There are amazing classes online. Maybe not all of her schooling but some it. It is very difficult to keep up with all of the high school academics as well as school younger children, parent, manage a home, etc. It's just a lot. And it's okay to realize that, to look around at what options are available and to use them. 

 

I've had quite a 3 years as well and I just last week made a major decision that will help me focus much more on my younger two and to reinvigorate where I want them/us to be. 

 

Lisa

[MiMi 4under3]

You are a sleep deprived mom of two littles! Give yourself some credit!  :grouphug:

 

From your description of eldest DD, it sounds like she may be bored at ps. I would wait until you are getting more sleep before making any major decisions.  :)

 

 

[fourisenough]

The comment from the guidance counselor excepted, I wouldn't jump to conclusions about your local school without doing some digging.

 

For somewhat similar reasons, we opted to send our girls to PS for HS. I have ZERO regrets. They are getting a fantastic education. Between the two of them they've read (and discussed, analyzed, and written about) The Grapes of Wrath, The Great Gatsby, Animal Farm, and Great Expectations so far this year and it's only November 6th! Other subjects are just as robust. Frankly, I'm astounded at the quality of teaching and the meaningful learning happening. My girls got a terrific foundation at home (as it sounds like your daughter has), and they transitioned easily into a B & M school. They are being challenged every day and are getting great results. Oldest DD took the ACT in September, and we were thrilled with her results. If you decide to send your daughter to school it will not be a failure, just a recognition that her needs may be better met elsewhere. This might allow you the breathing room you need to re-commit yourself to your younger kids' education and to enjoy baby/toddlerhood.

[musicianmom]

 

Obviously you have an 8th grader with a really good foundation! If your daughter's social needs are being met, and if you can afford it, on-line classes would appear to be a great solution to your problem. There are so many great options! You could outsource every class and get top-notch instruction for her.

Edited May 23, 2022 by musicianmom

[Crimson Wife]

Do you have the funds to outsource English and maybe history? There are so many options now for distance learning- WTM Academy, Circe Academy, Memoria Press Online Academy, Angelicum/Great Books Academy, Kolbe Academy, Veritas Press Scholars Academy, and tons more.

 

I don't think it's an all-or-none situation.

[Alte Veste Academy]

Is part of providing a quality education simply knowing when to stop?

Yes.

 

I feel like we were doing ok until I read the Circe threads and those got me doubting everything.

And part of being sane is knowing when to stop reading threads full of platitudes, getting intimidated, internalizing erroneous self-talk, and throwing out the baby with the bathwater. LOL Your "baby" sounds like she is doing awesome! Raising a competent self-starter is living the dream!

 

I vote to give yourself some grace, outsource logic and literature (or learn those subjects alongside her with The Well-Educated Mind), and work on a (baby step) plan for changing school to be more in line with your goals.

[Clear Creek]

A few thoughts:

 

1. If you need to put her in public school (for your own sanity, peace of mind, for a break, whatever) it isn't pemanent. You can always bring her home at the end of 9th grade if you decide at that point that you feel prepared to homeschool her.

 

2. A "Circe" education isn't about amassing a great amount of knowledge or having the most rigorous educational model. It is about education shaping the individual. Reading and discussing great literature will make you think, reflect, and grow as an individual. Those books you read years ago were not for naught; I am sure that if you considered what you read at all, if you thought about the characters, the situations they were in, the choices they made and the effect the choices had on other people...if you did more than just look at words on a page, it had some effect on who you are today. It isn't about storing up story lines and character names in your memory, it is about coming into contact with the characters and letting it shape you. And I am positive that Andrew Kern has recommended just reading a few good books every year and discussing them in-depth over reading large quantities. You can assign her a book to read, just a chapter a day, and you can listen to the audiobook as you wash dishes (or nurse the baby :tongue_smilie: ) and once a week you two can sit down together and discuss those chapters. You don't need any deep intellectual knowledge or strong literary background to talk about the book, just use Kern's "should" question..."should so-and-so have done such-and-such." If you are really worried, you can find a literature guide for the book and use the discussion questions (not comprehension questions) to start the conversation.

 

3. Definitely outsource whatever you are able to. There are online logic, literature, history, etc. classes. That will take a lot off your plate.

[Reefgazer]

I would get the baby on formula so a partner (if available) can feed the baby so that you can increase your sleep time.  Hire a mom's helper during the day if you can to give you time to do read-alouds with those kids who are of age.  Hire a housekeeper for housework.  Outsource selected courses at classical online academies for your oldest DD, and then concentrate on giving your littles what you long to give them, education-wise.

[kiana]

Does it have to be a B and M? Could you afford to outsource the areas that you feel you are weakest in using online courses?

 

English especially (imo) lends itself well to an online course as much communication and discussion can be carried out through message boards or through Skype/similar conferences.

[HSmomof2]

The comment from the guidance counselor excepted, I wouldn't jump to conclusions about your local school without doing some digging.

 

For somewhat similar reasons, we opted to send our girls to PS for HS. I have ZERO regrets. They are getting a fantastic education. Between the two of them they've read (and discussed, analyzed, and written about) The Grapes of Wrath, The Great Gatsby, Animal Farm, and Great Expectations so far this year and it's only November 6th! Other subjects are just as robust. Frankly, I'm astounded at the quality of teaching and the meaningful learning happening. My girls got a terrific foundation at home (as it sounds like your daughter has), and they transitioned easily into a B & M school. They are being challenged every day and are getting great results. Oldest DD took the ACT in September, and we were thrilled with her results. If you decide to send your daughter to school it will not be a failure, just a recognition that her needs may be better met elsewhere. This might allow you the breathing room you need to re-commit yourself to your younger kids' education and to enjoy baby/toddlerhood.

ITA with the above. I would check out your local school before making a decision. Public schools vary greatly, and not all are providing a subpar education. I reluctantly sent my dc to public school this year for 4th and 6th grades. We've been having some financial issues for the last few years, and I really needed to return to work. I have been very pleased with the quality of education my dc are receiving at our local elementary and middle schools. The had a good early foundation and have transitioned well. We're no longer on the verge of bankruptcy, I'm enjoying my part-time job, and I'm really enjoying being able to just be their mom. I feel like I have some room to breathe now. I hadn't realized how much stress I had been under the last few years with our financial problems and having the complete weight of providing an education for dc. While it was very difficult to let go of my homeschooling ideals, and I felt very guilty sending them to school, I'm glad we made the decision.

[Sahamamama]

1. The Great Books are meant to be there for your entire lifetime. They are not going anywhere, and they will be there when you can come up for air. This also holds true for your daughter. The Great Books will be there for her, too -- for her entire lifetime, not just for high school. There is no hurry.

 

2. When you read or study something, put some notes on an index card. Tape the card over the kitchen sink, where you'll see it every day. You are obviously intelligent! You just need more repetition in order to retain things.

 

3. It's time for you to get to know these people. ;) You can learn alongside your daughter, and still collapse on the sofa. LOL. :grouphug:

[MistyMountain]

You are definitely not unintelligent. You have lots of kids and you are experiencing sleep deprivation. I was in a complete fog when the sleep deprivation was at its worse. I don't get as much sleep as I need still. Even with my kids being older I still do not get much intellectual stimulation especially since at the end of the day when I finally have a moment to myself I am completely fried and overloaded. When you don't get to practice and you are sleep deprived and overwhelmed then you are not at your sharpest. You still have really little ones and a lot on your plate with educating several children.

 

You didn't get a chance to do the kind of education you hoped to but you are doing an adequate job and your kids are doing very well.

[Soror]

HUGS! I know that feeling, fortunate for me mine were younger when I went through the worst of it, these past 2 years. 

 

Yes, I do think that sometimes that hs'ers need to realize that it isn't always in the best interest of their kids to continue hs'ing.

 

No, it doesn't sound like your failing at all. Personally, I think in your shoes (and as I said I've been similar places) is:

1) Find a class or 2 and outsource it, at least for the coming semester, whatever it is that is causing you the most stress that you aren't doing it

 

2)Make getting better sleep a number one priority (I did this last January and renewed again in July and it helped immensely- my hormones still mess with my sleep sometimes but overall it is 100x better and it made the biggest improvement in how I felt)

1- keep a schedule- and go to bed earlier- when it was at its worst I went to bed at 8 pm every night, now my bedtime is 9, I've found I have to go to bed with the baby or don't sleep well

2- stay away from screens at night

3-no lights in your room, I even have dh turn over the alarm clock, blinds and curtains closed

4-get outside during the day- at the beginning I was so tired and drained I just aimed to make it to the porch, slowly I worked up to walking further and further distances outside

5- be active-again start from where your at but you will sleep better if you do more in the day and hopefully at least not be as disturbed by the wakings

6-vitamins- vit d (especially as we are getting less sunlight now) and the b vitamins- take both early though

 

Investigate why the baby is waking so much- for mine it was:

1-not having a consistent enough and early enough schedule for them (which is hard with other kids and activities but I had to make it a priority we didn't hardly do anything while taking care of this)

2-food- I cut out lots of food from my diet, I was desperate, fwiw milk is the number one issue for food/sleep problems- no food is worth not getting to sleep

3-this summer I finally night weaned and yes she does sleep better and no it wasn't near as bad as I thought it would be, she was 18 months old at the time. I really struggled with it because I don't usually do it but I couldn't take it anymore. As of now she nurses when we go to bed and in the morning when she wakes up. It was such a blessing in the beginning to have dh stay with her a few nights and not worry about getting woke up, now those are generally the only times she wakes up and it is glorious. I'm finding parts of my brain I forgot I had. Please consider this, it sounds like the baby is at least a year old, you need sleep. At first I made sure to feed her tons during the day to make the transition smoother but really it wasn't bad and it has been worth it!

 

Give yourself some grace and focus on those positives. I know in the last couple of years at least we were able to focus on our relationships even if academics weren't always exactly what I had pictured.

[Luckymama]

I am outsourcing the classes I am not comfortable teaching at an advanced high school level, English and foreign language (Arabic in dd's case). I do not feel like a failure. In fact, I feel much less stress :)

[Erin]

There is plenty more reading that I need to do but I'm sick when I realize I don't have the time.  I need time to read the Circe threads, listen to the talks, read the books recommended in the Circe threads, digest it all, and on top of that, read the classics that I didn't read (or no longer remember   :banghead: ) so that I can actually do something with my oldest.  I don't have the time for all of this.

1.  Just speaking to this part, utilize audios!!

 

You can get most of the classics, absolutely free, at Librivox.  Other than the "this is a Librivox recording.  All Librivox recordings are in the public domain.  For more information, got to Librivox.com" etc. part, they're usually quite well done.  

You can also get them through you public library via Overdrive, or even pay for some at Audible.com.  Crank the speed up a bit so you can listen as fast as you can read.  You're then getting books in while you're cleaning house, doing dishes, nursing the baby, driving to _______, and so on and so forth.  

 

2.  There's nothing wrong with school-at-home.  Really.  ...Particularly for people interested in a  classical education.

In the old days of wealthy-kids-with-tutors, that's exactly how they did it; school-at-home.

 

3.  There's nothing inherently wrong with public school either, particularly for kids with very involved parents.  They can't help but get enrichment at home.  

 

4.  I agree with those who've said now probably isn't the time to make big decisions.  The oldest is 8th grade.  That means you still have some time flexibility on your side.  Things tend to be cyclical, so if she misses something this year, she'll still have a year in high school where she'll pick it up.  Wait and see how this year goes.  Maybe you DO want to consider B&M.  Maybe you won't.  

And at her age, she should get to have some input on the decision process...

 

5.  Be patient with yourself.

Good heavens, you just told us you have 5 kids, one of which is an infant and the other four you're homeschooling.  WOW!  You're my hero!!

You have brain fog??!  

Shoot, I'd be in a corner drooling and mumbling!

[Critterfixer]

It's my policy never to make a decision when I haven't slept properly on it. 

I'm seeing a lot of really negative self-talk in your post, and I'm here to tell you that when your mind is busy telling you that you aren't smart enough, or wise enough, or friendly enough or whatever enough, it's time to say ENOUGH, Already! Table the discussion, and for goodness sake, take care of yourself!

 

[LibraryLover]

Sometimes, yes.

[Susan in TX]

 

I know I haven't failed them thus far. My oldest, at least, has a good idea of the flow of history, is literate in the different sciences as I have always been consistent with our study of science, and has the solid skills in the areas of grammar and writing. For me, it's the logic and literature aspects that are really taking the wind out of my sails. I was not trained in formal logic and presenting it to her in a coherent and interesting manner has proved difficult. And literature at the high school level is making me beyond nervous. She's already devoured most of Dicken's works, read Moby Dick 3x, gone through Austen and the Bronte sisters and has read classics that, at her age, I never knew existed.

 

I think you need a reality check. You are talking about college level work here, not high school. Based on what you said, your daughter is already more educated than 99% of high school graduates. She is more well read than most college graduates. I think you can give yourself a pat on the back and relax a little.

 

Susan in TX

[fourisenough]

My youngest homeschooled until she was 14. She is now in an IB program in an urban public high school, doing fabulously. She is eager, not burned out . She was more than prepared. We are very lucky that the literature, etc is excellent. They are tackling good books, full books, deeply. Her lit class is currently reading Frankenstein. At the dinner table the other night, she was sighing, telling us how moved she was by the first sentence of the first chapter. "It's so beautiful. It made me feel full and happy. Better than the best meal." (And so she read it aloud to us.) DD was so ready for this next step. It was time for us, and I don't even have younger children. I have no guilt whatsoever letting her go to public high school.

Thanks for sharing this anecdote. She sounds like my oldest daughter. This year's English teacher uses nothing but good, whole books to teach his class. They're currently reading Macbeth. He sits in the front of the class on a wooden stool and they talk. His Socratic discussions are, apparently, "epic." She is now a firmly committed Shakespeare lover; thank you, Mr. D! Though well-intentioned, I was never able to generate that much enthusiasm for the Bard in my daughter's time homeschooling. I'm aware that not all public high schools are this good, but I also think we (as homeschoolers) shouldn't fool ourselves into thinking they're all terrible or that we've failed if we even consider sending our kids to school.

[Ottakee]

Sounds like you are doing great right now with their education.

 

I would take a look at the local public school for your oldest and see what they have to offer.  Poor schools can have great teachers and great schools can have poor teachers and things change over time.  You don't have to decide now but you can gather information for next year.  How does your dd feel about school?  That would play a big part as well for a child of that age.

 

I would see about a mother's helper or paying oldest dd a bit or something to try to get 2 hours of UNINTERRUPTED time for MOM for a nap every day if possible if sleeping through the night isn't happening. MOM needs sleep.  The other option if the baby is a bit older (and I would say older than 6 months, for sure at a year) to stop the night nursing and use a bottle if it is really needed or something.  I am pro nursing but again, mom needs to sleep.  The baby might need a schedule.  I have had over 50 foster babies/early toddlers and managed to get them all on a schedule so baring any special needs, that might be very helpful all around.

[KrissiK]

I'm not going to tell you to keep homeschooling or not, but I will tell you that sometimes we can't always do what we want or what we feel like we should. I read TWTM when my boys were toddlers and knew that was the right way to educate. And I read the Circe threads and just loved them. I wanted to educate that way. I wanted a better education for my children, too, than I got myself. I had all these ideals and thoughts about how the best education would look for my kids. But this year, I am finding out that that doesn't always work in real life. My kids are not at all interested in academics. They're quite bright, but they want to just do their work, finish it and then do their own thing. Which for my boys right now is digging in the back yard. Well, so be it. I suppose boys should dig in the back yard. Anyhow, I have strayed far and away from the Classical model. And we keep inching closer and closer to just a boxed curriculum. We went to A Beka history with the boys this year. And you know what? They like it. They really do. We are supposed to be doing the Middle Ages this year and I wanted them to love Charlemagne, understand the Crusades, delve into the Renaissance. It's not going to happen. But, I think just because it is not my ideal, doesn't mean they are not getting a good education. It's just different than I wanted to give them. And that's going to have to be ok.

[ElizabethB]

:grouphug:

 

You need sleep! I used a modified babywise schedule with both my children, I don't function well without sleep. My daughter was on the basic 3 hour (or whatever, it has been a while) plan but nursed 3 times in last 2 or 3 hours before bed to tank up enough to last through the night. My son was mainly in the schedule they recommended, but he drank more per time and chugged down until there was no milk left. They were both fat, happy babies and I was a happy mom once they were sleeping through the night. I was a mess when they were waking at night.

 

Audiobooks. Library ones or librivox (Librivox looks really cool, how did I not know about this?!?!?!????!!!!!)

 

Also, I really like the Latin Alive DVDs, you can watch with if you have more time or get some sleep or let them use the DVD as instruction if you don't. I personally use them to teach myself and then teach my daughter, but she make lunch and sometimes dinner in exchange for not having to watch the DVDs. (She really dislikes educational DVDs and Kahn Academy videos for some reason. But, since I only have 2 children and she is willing to help out, I can watch them instead and then teach her directly.)

 

I am really enjoying the old Open Court readers, I occasionally have my daughter read a story if it is one she has not heard. There are a lot of classic tales and it slowly builds in reading difficulty. My son now says reading is his favorite subject! (and this is a boy that struggled with phonics with years, he only began reading at grade level last year. He is now a few grades above grade level but still working in multisyllable phonics and building up his reading skills.) If you are interested in using them as readers, I will type up a list of titles, they are a fun easy way to bring in more classic tales while working on other skills. (the Open Court readers are for elementary children, not your oldest.)

[Mrs Twain]

I am not dumb, but I can't make heads or tails of those Circe threads. I don't even have any babies either. There is more to education and the world than analyzing literature. I say don't bother yourself with Circe discussions, especially as sleep deprived as you are.

 

You are clearly doing the most important things right. As someone else said, your 8th grader is likely head and shoulders above 99% of public school kids. She is way ahead of most of the homeschoolers I have met, too. She is well read, competent in math, and excellent in grammar and writing. She is knowledgeable in history and science. You are on solid ground.

 

All that said, I think homeschooling high school is too much for you. You need someone to tell you to outsource it, so I will be the one. If you had more time, more sleep, and less babies, I think you could do a wonderful job teaching high school. It sounds like the reality, though, is that you don't have the time.

 

Even if you send you daughter to public school, you could still try to oversee her education. Make a reading list for her if her school doesn't require enough and discuss the books with her. Make sure her writing and grammar conform to your high standards even if the school's are lower. You could do some of these things over summer if there is not enough time during the school year.

 

You are in a strong position and should feel proud of what you have accomplished.

[Rosie_0801]

I was watching a doco the other day about the brain under stress. One chap had gone without sleep for so long he passed out, then swung his leg over the hot air balloon basket when the altitude alarm woke him. 

 

Nobody is clever when they haven't had enough sleep!

 

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

[LLMom]

I just wrote a post on my blog about ways moms with older kids can lighten their load. Maybe something will be helpful. See my signature. Please take care of yourself, whatever form it takes. B/M school does not mean you have failed and like others have said, its not permanent.

[idnib]

Said with kindness...

 

I think you've lost perspective here. You've been through the wringer and are not getting enough sleep. This makes it very difficult to make rational decisions. Take a day off (and see if someone can take the kids out of the house unless the baby needs you) and find some ways to outsource items in which you're weak and your daughter is strong.

 

It sounds to me like she's doing great!

 

And make sure she's doing her part to help out. An 8th grader should be helping you a lot, and the other kids should be pitching in. Is she making any meals? Cleaning? Doing laundry? What about the youngers? If they're not doing their part, call off school for a few days and re-orient them by teaching them the proper ways to do housework for their developmental levels.

[Chris in VA]

I think you are not only trying to educate a bunch of people, but you are trying to give yourself a college-level education as well.

On no sleep.

 

Prioritize sleep. For me, that would be night weaning. I was super-sensitive to my kiddos, and I could not BEAR their discomfort. So I kept on nursing when I was really ready to stop. I had to stop at one point--I remember my therapist asking me what would happen if I could not nurse my second son anymore (the issue was that I probably needed medication and had to choose nursing or taking it--he was over a year, I think). I said that would be TERRIBLE, and I truly meant, like, "end of the world, this is total failure, how could I ever hurt my sweet baby," kinda terrible.

 

She could not get me to see how erroneous that thinking was. I just wrote her off as someone who couldn't possibly understand, not having any kids herself. It took maturity I did not have to be able to separate my emotions from my children's. This came much later--happily, I was able to successfully wean my dd, even though I did take a bit longer than I wanted--but I did what was best for BOTH of us.

 

Is this where you are? Could you bear your little one's discomfort if you did not nurse at night? (Perhaps you are not nursing, but just comforting...) Do you know why the extreme night waking is happening?

 

Seriously, I would go for broke to get that little one to sleep. If I absolutely had to, I would hire a night nurse and sleep in a hotel for a few nights, just to restore some brain function. If your husband can't help, I would truly do this.

 

2.  Outsource dd's lit for one year--I hear WTM is really good. This is not a failure. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat.

 

3.  If you can get your sleep under control, I am about 100% positive you will think more clearly about everything. But, it also sounds like you need to let go of some perfectionism. I hope that's not ouchy--I don't mean to say anything that makes you feel worse. It does, really and truly, sound like you have done an EXCELLENT job.

 

4. I just want to end with--YOU ARE ENOUGH. I don't mean, you don't need someone to help educate your kids, or help with the baby, or whatever--maybe you do. But your self-esteem sounds like it has taken and continues to take a beating! Do what you were designed for, and let the community around you help with the rest. If you have to have some more incentive, think about the model you are showing your kiddos--would you want them to feel exhausted, depleted, anxious, harried, upset, unsure of themselves, negative, etc? NO, of course not! YOU NEED TO MODEL GOOD SELF-CARE, so that they don't think the way you feel is how they should feel as adults. (I know, one more thing you HAVE TO DO--lol--but this will be a good thing, trust me.)

 

So take care of yourself, perhaps by letting someone else help you take care!

 

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

I agree on the no sleep thing.  I remember those days.  I wondered if I'd ever feel like a person again.  It's awful and messes with your head.

 

Don't make any major decisions until you get more sleep!

 

 

[happypamama]

I agree with the other posters who said not to make any decisions while sleep deprived. Sleep is huge, so huge!

 

Are you cosleeping? If not, I would definitely consider it. My third baby was an all night nurser, but because he slept with me, I barely woke, if I did at all, and so I was maybe mildly tired but not exhausted.

 

For me, a bottle would not have helped because my DH sleeps deeply enough that to wake him to care for a baby, I have to end up being awake myself, and then I can't fall back asleep. So I would work on ways to get more sleep myself, and if it wasn't happening at night, naptime for Mom would be an absolute necessity! The older kids can watch the littles so that you can take a couple of hours of a nap every day. Put on a movie for the littles if you need to. If the baby won't nap with you, get one of the big kids to wear the baby in a sling.

 

And remember that this is a season, an important one in your baby's life, but it won't last forever. Last year, I had an infant, a 2yo, and a 4yo, plus two big kids who needed me. It was often unpredictable because of the littles and nights when I didn't sleep much, and no, we didn't get done as much as I'd have liked. But it was okay, and this year, things are smoother and easier and more predictable, and we are getting more done. Give yourself time and grace.

[mama27]

I apologize in advance that this will likely get lengthy. I am stuck in the haze of sleep deprivation and my brain is foggy and hazy. I feel like I can't think clearly some days, but this isn't the main point of this thread.

 

I must preface this letting you know that I got what I think was a typical education. I was an honor student at the top of my graduating class. I did really well on the SAT etc. I studied hard, made good grades, but sadly I never learned (or retained for that matter) much of anything. It was simply study for the test, do well, promptly forget all that was learned. My English studies were abysmal although I didn't know it at the time. There is one part of my grade 10 English class that clearly stands out. We had spent a long period of time studying allegory and other literary devices used in a Disney cartoon. . I recall watching it at least 3 times in class as well as at home while my friends and I laughed about and went through our assignments. I also going to watch The Phantom of the Opera as a class and studying that. I don't recall all we did but do remember working tirelessly well into the early hours of the morning to complete the final assignment at the end of the unit ... a diorama(!!!!) of the stage and the cellars of the opera house. I was thrilled when I received 100% for my efforts and then a bonus 10% on top for including a small descriptive write-up. Grade 11 and 12 English classes were better, but marginally so. We were never required to read Dickens and I never (at the time) read classics like Animal Farm or Grapes of Wrath. I did do reading on my own but, not having any proper guidance, tended to gravitate towards crap like Danielle Steele and VC Andrews. :blushing: :ack2: I did read LOTR and Austen as well but clearly was not mature enough to make those my preferred reading material. I do not recall being taught how to write a proper paper but as (luck?) would have it I had a natural ability to write which got me through. Life went on, I went to University, was never going to have kids, blah blah blah.

 

When my oldest was born I heard about WTM when she was about 2. I immediately devoured it and realized that this was the education I wanted for my kids and NOT what I had gone through. My high school really didn't prepare me for post secondary but somehow I managed to get through unscathed. I wanted more for her. So, I gathered almost every resource mentioned in TWTM and we set off. At the same time, I read WEM and began reading through the novels one by one. Not as diligently as I had hoped but my dd was then 4 and I had 2 more little ones to tend to. I made a good dent in those WEM books, but I'd be lying if I said I remember much of any of them now. Whether this is due to my own lack of intelligence, lack of sleep for 13 years or something more, I do not know. But I feel like I may as well have not read them at all some days. We followed WTM very closely for 5 years and for the most part everything was great.

 

When dd was in 5th grade I found myself in the middle of a life altering event/crisis that was to last ~3 years. It changed who I was to the very core and it is only the last 6 months or so that I have been able to find myself again. Needless to say, school went in a whole new direction. I went from following WTM to more of a school-at-home, panic, we are never doing enough approach. I did my best to counteract this by hiring a tutor to help dd through Wheelocks and she managed to get through about 1/2 the book. But gone was the poetry memorization (for the younger kids) and the extensive reading aloud (to the younger kids). Completely gone was my self-education.

 

So, here I am with a dd in 8th grade as well as 3 other school aged kids. I consider it a fabulous night if I can get a consecutive hour of sleep without having to nurse the baby. Most nights, it's 30-45 min. It is slowly killing me. My brain is mush. I'm not even clear if this post is making sense. Add into the mix a terror of a 3 year old who never. sits. still. and needs to be constantly watched and entertained/kept busy and the days are chaos. I don't sit down and read the classics at night. I collapse on the couch! Most nights I "sleep" in my clothes. I've decided to throw myself wholeheartedly into this again and pick up where I left off but I am wondering if it may just be too late? None of the kids are behind; they can read and write effectively and are "above grade level" (I have some friends who are ps teachers and I show them their work from time to time and that has been their feedback) and are proficient at math. But their education for the past 3 years has been far less than MY ideal, and the ideal of those of you who partook in the many Circe threads. ;) My oldest definitely got the better end of the stick in terms of solid early skills (the most reading aloud, the poetry memorization, the sequential history complete with activities and relevant field trips). The other kids did too, but only to an extent. They are definitely more used to the "school-at-home" vibe even though I have tried to keep their curriculum from WTM picks. I think I can pick up with them and head in the direction I want to go but my concern lies with my oldest.

 

As part of my commitment to bettering my homeschool I have once again started reading threads here. I dropped off for quite a long time although I did post/read from time to time. It was mostly when I was in dire need of something or needed to vent. I wasn't really gleaning anything of much importance. So I've stumbled across the Circe threads. I'm not done them, but I can already feel the panic setting in. My own high school (English) education was abysmal. I want so much more for my children. There is plenty more reading that I need to do but I'm sick when I realize I don't have the time. I need time to read the Circe threads, listen to the talks, read the books recommended in the Circe threads, digest it all, and on top of that, read the classics that I didn't read (or no longer remember :banghead: ) so that I can actually do something with my oldest. I don't have the time for all of this. :willy_nilly: I used to study Latin along side of her but that had to drop off and I am back to the beginning with it. Some days I wonder if I had a brain injury, it is scary how little I remember some days. My dd dropped the Latin studies over a year ago and has forgotten a great deal as well and I mourn for the money we spent on that tutor when we will now have to repeat it all over again. I suspect it will come back to her a lot faster

 

I don't know that I can continue to teach my dd and give her the education that I would like her to have. Currently, she is doing very well as she is studious and diligent. I've shown her writing to many adults and their jaws hit the ground when they read it. She's excelling in her grammar studies in R&S8 and has surpassed my grammatical skills- I now have to use the teacher book to mark her work! So embarrassing, I know. I want to be able to take her further. I long to read the Great Books with her and discuss them. But how on earth can I do that when I am so unintelligent myself and my degree really doesn't prepare me to help her with such skills. Literature interests me but also scares the crap out of me because I know it is such an area of weakness. We are not in a bad school district now, but I didn't grow up in a "bad" one either. I speculate that I must have had the great misfortune of having a lousy teacher for those high school English years because, best I can tell, the other subjects were fine and prepared me for university level courses.

 

Perhaps this is the end of the line for me when it comes to teaching dd. She's reading and thoroughly enjoying grappling with the great works of literature. But maybe I am simply not the mom to continue those steps with her? I want to be but I also have the other kids to teach and two l'il guys in diapers that need constant attention. I also have a business I help run and my dh travels extensively so I'm on my own for a lot. I am not smart enough to do this. I read some of the Circe related threads and I can barely grasp the ideas that are being presented, let alone grapple with them and have anything of value to add. I am embarrassed by my own unintelligence and I very well aware of what I don't know. :p The flip side of this all is that I know one of the guidance counsellors at the local high school so I did go and speak with her (at a coffee shop, outside of school hours). I showed her some of dd's work and we discussed what she is reading. The counsellor looked at me and said that she would be absolutely thrilled if her grade 12 graduates were writing as well as dd is. (I almost cried because this really could be more to do with the fact that their graduates are poorly prepared more so than dd being highly accomplished... but I shouldn't sell dd short. She does seem to have a gift in this area).

 

All this to say that I didn't mean to lose 3 years of my (self education) life. Crazy twists and turn of events has led me to where I am now and I need to just take the next step and move forward. After reading all the more intellectually minded threads on this board I am reminded that I am painfully uneducated (or at least educated in the wrong areas) and it's very possible that I am just plain stupid. Oh brain, why art thou so fuzzy all. the. time? So that's my question for you all. As a mom who hasn't read a lot of classics, is not overly philosophically minded, and has issues with mental capacity (I can learn but man I just can't seem to think and remember things the past few months) is part of my providing my dd with a quality education simply knowing that it is time to stop and put her in a b&m school??

 

 

 

Ok, so from what I've read of your posts, your daughter is already academically ahead of where you are, despite the past 3 years of not educating her the way you feel is best and yet you want to send her to the same place that you got YOUR education? Obviously not the same exact school, but the unless you can find a school that educates the way you feel is best, it's probably not going to be any better, and may even be worse, especially since you wrote you don'tlive in such a bad school area now. Not that bad of  a school district will not be anywhere close to your ideal, IMO.

 

Sometimes I think our ideals and what other people do is not what can actually happen , in real life.

Maybe you should just cut yourself some slack and realize you've actually done a pretty good job!!!

 

[Mrs Twain]

Public high schools in general do a decent job teaching math and science. Foreign language and history can be okay if the student applies him- or herself. Subjects such as literature and writing tend to be hit or miss depending on the teacher. If needed these latter two subjects can be supplemented by the parent, though. Don't sell public school too short. It may not be a bad option.

[shinyhappypeople]

Perhaps you could take an extended winter break (starting at T-giving... or now),  work on sleep issues and routines, and then re-evaluate in January.  Nothing bad is going to happen if you take time to step back, REST, and regroup.