Smart But Scattered book discussion

[Plink]

Join anytime - this week's discussion starts at post 23

 

This is an open discussion jumping off of this thread.  If you are interested in joining, just pop by the library to get a copy of Smart but Scattered by Peg Dawson and Richard Guare and join us whenever you can, even if that means jumping into the conversation in week 7!

 

So, first things first.  If we take this book 1 chapter at a time, we will be reading for the next 6 months.  That seems a bit insane.  I took a look at the index and divided it up.  Any objections?

 

Reading schedule

Week 1 - Introduction & Chapter 1 (10/27)

Week 2 - Chapters 2-4 (11/3 - discussion starts at post 23)

Week 3 - Chapters 5-8 (11/10)

Week 4 - Chapters 9-12 (11/17)

Week 5 - Chapters 13-16 (11/24)

Week 6 - Chapters 17-20 (12/1)

Week 7 - Chapters 21-24 and skim recommended resources (12/8)

 

 

So, what did you think of chapter 1?    I found it tedious, but found some gems of encouragement.  

 

Introduction

 

“You can’t talk children into using skills they don’t haveâ€

- Seriously, this is just pure genius.  I need to print it on a coffee mug, hang it on the refrigerator, and get it as a tattoo.

 

executive skills develop “in a clear progression over the first two decades of lifeâ€

- There is still time to remediate!!!

 

Chapter 1

 

“It’s not that they have any problem receiving and organizing the input they get from their senses … the trouble shows up when they need to organize outputâ€

- my LD child has trouble with the input stage too, so we are dealing with a double whammy

 

“Neural connections that are used are retained, while those that are not exercised are lost… the practice of executive skills is critical.â€

- emphasis mine.  This is what I am hoping to learn from this book.  How exactly do we practice executive skills?

 

 

“The ability to respond or not respond to a person or an event is at the heart of regulating behavior.â€

• 
  

  boundaries and limits

  
  
  
• 
  

  close supervision

  
  
  
• 
  

  natural consequences

  
  
  
• 
  

  teach alternative behaviors

  
  
  

- Again, I'm looking forward to reading about how to implement this.

 

Next week we get to dig into the evaluations.  I have a feeling those will be revealing!

 

 

 

 

 

 

[EmilyGF]

Thanks, Pink, for starting this! I hope to get my copy in the next few days and join in!

[Jean in Newcastle]

I like how your divided it up.  I'll come back in a bit to comment on the introduction and chapter one.  

[hornblower]

I put the teen copy on hold at the library (thinking i'd read along & get a gist for what your book is saying while I read this one) .... and then missed the date for picking it up.  :huh: 

Apparently I need the "smart but scattered 40'somethings" version....

[fraidycat]

I need the same tattoo as you!

 

And I love that there is a discussion of this book going on. I will have to see if I can dig my copy out. It's still packed from out move in August.

[greenvneck]

It's been years since I read this book, I need to dig it out again and get the teen one, too. Another book that is helpful is Where's My Stuff? Unfortunately, I can't find my copy (I recognize the irony).

[klmama]

LOL! Inevitably, my overdue library books are on the topic of organization....

[ScoutTN]

thanks for starting this! waiting for my copy from the library, though I suspect I will be ordering it from Amazon so I can write in it.

[Plink]

LOL! Inevitably, my overdue library books are on the topic of organization....

:laugh:

Unfortunately, I can't find my copy (I recognize the irony).

:lol:

 

 

Apparently I need the "smart but scattered 40'somethings" version....

:smilielol5:

 

Our poor kids probably need a supportive forum to deal with their flighty parents.  

 

On a bit more serious note, have you seen this study yet?  The genetics of executive (dys)function are fascinating.   http://scienceblogs.com/developingintelligence/2008/05/13/99-genetic-individual-differen/  "This study shows that executive functions are among the most heritable cognitive traits ever discovered – nearly completely genetic in origin"

[Erin]

Funny, I was just talking to Bean's teachers today at PTCs. Everyone commented on how easy she is to work with, how organized she is, how on-top-of-things...and I could hear the puzzlement. An extremely small school, there's only one teacher per subject at each level. So they each had had her brother in 7th, also, before we pulled him to homeschool.

"Yeah, Buck is MY kid and Bean is her father's." lol

 

 

OK, so I dug out my copy of SBS: Teens that I haven't read in a couple of years. (I love how you guys think people can just pick up any ol' book at the library!)

I'll be checking in tomorrow after I've had a chance to re-read through chapter 1 and see if my edituon is close enough to the original. :)

[Jean in Newcastle]

OK I'm back!  I'm going to put my thoughts on the intro. and ch. 1 and then look back to see what yours were.

 

Intro:  Maybe this is too basic, but I liked being reminded that the book title is Smart but Scattered because honestly, sometimes I forget that about my kids and about myself.  I liked how it says that these skills are developmental but it's best to start working on them because you can't just bank on them being a late bloomer and suddenly exhibiting these executive skills.  It hurt but was good to be reminded how children can be negatively impacted in a whole lot of ways by not having these executive functions when others their age have them.  

 

Ch. 1:  - I'll have to come back even later.  Ran out of time.

[hornblower]

:laugh:

 

:lol:

 

:smilielol5:

 

Our poor kids probably need a supportive forum to deal with their flighty parents.  

 

On a bit more serious note, have you seen this study yet?  The genetics of executive (dys)function are fascinating.   http://scienceblogs.com/developingintelligence/2008/05/13/99-genetic-individual-differen/  "This study shows that executive functions are among the most heritable cognitive traits ever discovered – nearly completely genetic in origin"

 

oh gad, i knew it,  it's my fault ....... :huh:

 

I did manage to get the teen book from the library. I'll try to read a bit today.

[BooksandBoys]

Thanks for starting this topic. I've had this book on my shelf for about 6 months. I'd say it was gathering dust, but I've moved twice in those 6 months, so, no dust. :-)

 

I found the initial chapters to be interesting because they put some of my own experiences and recent thoughts on those experiences in perspective.

 

I was notorious for my scattered brain as a child. I distinctly remember working ever so hard to improve my organization and focus, reading countless books on the subject, in high school and college, and I succeeded (well, mostly. I still procrastinated). I got so good at it that I FORGOT that I was scatterbrained. :-)

 

Then, I had kids (and moved 5 times). I've spent the last 7 years of my life trying to figure out what happened to my calm, organized way of life. The systems that I had worked so hard to develop stopped working within my new life (except where I put my keys. I never stopped using that one), but I couldn't figure out WHY because I had forgotten that I used to be scattered and only stopped that when I set up iron clad routines and systems to manage myself. 

 

It wasn't until I began to be frustrated by my kids' scattered behaviors that I realized that they hadn't fallen very far from their Mama's tree (or their father's, to be fair, but we'll keep this one about me). So, I'm hoping this book will help me help them, but also help me help me.

[Incognito]

 I will try to join in here.  I got about halfway through the book and remember thinking - if only I weren't the scattered parent I would be able to implement this stuff!

 

I had a season of my life when someone did help me implement really good routines and it made a huge difference.  I'm actually in the process of working my way back into that, and I'll put reading Smart But Scattered into my evening routine. :)  I appreciate the insights you have from the intro and ch1, and look forward to more to learn and share.

[maize]

I should check my Amazon history to find out whether I own this book already before I go buy it. I have a feeling I might... :)

 

I'm definitely scattered. I was always the kid with the missing homework and messy locker. Things haven't changed much. I am oh so sympathetic to my own kids when they struggle with structure and organization.

[Indian summer]

I bought this book ages ago and haven't gotten around to reading it, so thanks for starting this thread - just the kick in the pants I need.

 

I'll read the first section today and post my thoughts later.

[Indian summer]

I read the intro and ch 1. As I'm reading, I'm thinking of each of my kids and how I've observed them develop their executive functioning skills over the years, as though switches keep getting turned on. It's funny that the things that aggravate me, they eventually outgrow, but at the same time it hasn't been linear. My youngest has developed skills that one of my older kids still hasn't. It will be interesting to get onto the next chapter and see where each of the kids fits into developmentally. And it will be interesting to learn where I can help the progress along and where I can't.

[maize]

I read the intro and ch 1. As I'm reading, I'm thinking of each of my kids and how I've observed them develop their executive functioning skills over the years, as though switches keep getting turned on. It's funny that the things that aggravate me, they eventually outgrow, but at the same time it hasn't been linear. My youngest has developed skills that one of my older kids still hasn't. It will be interesting to get onto the next chapter and see where each of the kids fits into developmentally. And it will be interesting to learn where I can help the progress along and where I can't.

 

I have observed uneven development here as well. Ds4 has much better control over his emotional responses than dd6 (almost 7) and has since he was about two years old. I still struggle with many of the organizational aspects of executive function, to the point where I am seriously tempted to try ADHD medication--sometime when I am not pregnant or nursing, though :)

[hornblower]

I think it's important to realize too that our environment is working against us so we have to work much harder now to stay on task...

 

This is a fairly short read but has tons of good explanations and possible solutions http://sumo.ly/32XG

[WinsomeCreek]

I'm in. I spent this weekend trying to figure out how to help my oldest get organized. Really, it's a family thing. I'm going to check out this book again. Hopefully it isn't too late to make some changes that will stick.

[kewb]

I am glad I clicked on this.  I just requested from the library.  I am hoping it will be helpful for getting my kids on task.

[allyphoe]

I bought and read the book several years ago, when my DD, who is now 11, seemed to really be struggling with executive function. The most useful thing I did with it was to have her rate herself using the assessment in Chapter 2 and have me rate both her using Chapter 2 and myself using Chapter 3. Because she was lower elementary by age and upper elementary by grade, we both rated her on both scales.

 

There was a big discrepancy between how I evaluated her skills and how she evaluated her skills. Some areas i rated as a weakness in her were areas she'd identified as a strength. The weaknesses I saw in her were exactly the same as the weaknesses I saw in myself, and it turned out that what I was identifying was not, "my child is below average compared to other kids in this area," but rather, "my child's skills in this area are not sufficient to entirely compensate for my own shortcomings."

[Plink]

I'm glad so many of you are interested in reading with me - I really need accountability for books like this. 

 

So, we are on chapters 2 through 5 now.  What did you think?  

 

I was slightly insulted that the authors wanted me to analyze my own (ostensibly superior) executive skills, and then immediately amazed at how our skills and weaknesses build on one another.  

 

"If your son's or daughter's executive skill weaknesses drive you crazy, there's a good chance that it's because you're strong in those executive skills."  "It's easier to see that your child isn't paying attention than it is to see the same weakness in yourself."  

- Humbling.   

 

Anyone willing to share how their scores compare to their kids'?  Here's ours, with the similarities highlighted:

 

Kid Strengths: Organization, Goal Directed Persistence, Working Memory*

Mom Strengths : Planning/Prioritization, Time Management, Working Memory*

 

Kid Weaknesses: Emotional Control, Flexibility, Task Initiation

Mom Weaknesses: Flexibility, Task Initiation, Sustained Attention

 

*I had a bit of a struggle with the authors' definition of working memory.  They seemed to ask only questions about routine adherence in the kids section, rather than what I typically think of as working memory (the ability to temporarily store and manipulate information).  This didn't match what they asked in the adult section.  DD and I are both great at routines, but her neuropsych reports all came back with extensive working memory deficits, so I'm not really going to consider that we have a similarity in this area, despite the test results.

 

I loved the idea in chapter three to "remind yourself - and your child - of where the child has a strength that you lack.  This will really keep up morale when you need it most." and "remind yourself that you grew up with the same challenges and yet somehow made it to adulthood okay."

- It is so easy to focus on my kid's struggles, and not see where they excel.  This is a great reminder.

 

"designing an intervention strategy for yourself may make it easier to identify potential strategies your child can use."

- Absolutely going to put this suggestion into practice, but I'm not sure what our goal will be yet.  I'll try to think on it and let you know for next week!

 

The biggest revelation from chapter 4 for me was "Parents often labor under the misconception that childen develop self-esteem when we praise them ... In fact, a primary way children develop self-esteem is by tackling obstacles and overcoming them."

 

Sadly I recognized my own words in a lot of the things-not-to-say :(  Anyone else guilty of "Of course you know how to do this.  This is easy." or "You complained about this the last time you had to do this and you eventually were able to do it, so stop complaining and get to work." ??? 

 

[sbgrace]

My book came yesterday, and I've been trying to catch up. I'd like to join in/love what you've pulled out.

 

When I initially read the book I found the section about the child's weak skills being especially irksome to a parent who is strong in those areas helpful. However, I find this particularly true in my marriage. Initially, I checked this book out of my library and was reading on our way to vacation. It had started in a chaotic way because of some weak executive skills in hubby, despite my trying to compensate for him. And I realized my strongest things were his weakest ( had both of us answer the questions), and it causes a lot of tension in situations like, well, vacation planning and execution! I am pretty tolerant of my son's weak stuff, even though he mirrors his daddy in a lot of ways. I don't know why. But reading that section helped me cool down my frustration with my spouse that day.

 

My son is weak in nearly all the areas. It's discouraging if I dwell on it. His strongest area, and only clear strength honestly, is goal directed persistence. I'm encouraged that this area can be used to compensate for other weaknesses. I've seen that.  I need to look over chapter four more, but I pulled out " a significant factor affecting a child's ability to use executive skills well is the child's degree of interest in the task at hand or the child's motivation to achieve success." Motivation, if strong, can be used to compensate for other weak skills. I have always been confounded/frustrated by my son's ability to do certain things when a reward of sorts was in the offing, and his ability to attend to certain things and not others. I think I've then thought he could do x every day if he just decided to. So this is important for me to realize.

 

I found the information on pgs 56-58 about the negative effect of stress or physical things (like sleep) on executive function worth noting. A couple of quotes: "When your weakest executive skills seem to suffer a setback, this is a good clue that your stress level is rising." and "The good news is that if you recognize the problems for what they are, overloads that particularly tax skills that are weak to begin with, you can intervene either before, during, or after the problem arises to minimize the fallout." I so see this, and because of certain characteristics of mine, including flexibility being my weakest executive skill, it's really hard for me to back off my expectations when I probably should.

 

I, too, was struck by the quote about self esteem. It reminded me of one of our autism therapies when my son was younger. A big point was to find the "edge of competency" where the child was challenged, but still able to be successful. It's hard for me to avoid doing/helping/scaffolding too much. I need to work in this area.

 

 

[cintinative]

Is it too late to get some input on this? I read the book over our Christmas "break."  Like the prior poster, I am feeling a little overwhelmed. I see a number of weak spots in my youngest. I do think the book was extremely helpful and practical. My trouble is, they didn't really say--do you just address one weakness at a time and then move on? How do you prioritize? Or how do you do them all at once? I am totally a checklist girl but having that many concurrent checklists even makes me feel stressed.

 

I did find the self (parent) evaluation really interesting. My oldest and I have many of the same strengths and weaknesses, which really was what I thought all along. It is so much easier for me to "get it" when he is struggling, and for obvious reasons he is easier for me to teach. I got the book because of my youngest but I think it will have a side effect of helping me deal with some relatively "minor" issues with my oldest as well.  

 

Now that I have almost totally finished the book (on the last chapter), can I say I am not sure I found Chapter 3 as useful as they imply. They keep saying--if you have this weakness yourself, refer to Chapter 3. Unfortunately I don't know if that one chapter is adequate to address my issues!  =) What were your thoughts??

 

 

[Jean in Newcastle]

Personally, I took the one thing that bugs me most and worked on that first.