DoppeltGemoppelt Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 My twin boys (7) came home from school today with homework where they had to use Touchmath. Both of them have a great aptitude for math and are extremely logic thinkers. We use MEP math at home and they absolutely get it. I have experience with Touchmath because I work with special needs students. It is great for keeping remedial students on par with their age group, sort of like a calculater for younger kids. I am however very upset that my kids are forced to use this program. It does not teach math, it makes you rely on counting dots on the numbers. You cannot regroup (say, if you add 8+4, one cannot turn this into 8+2+2 in his head), and it is literally rote counting. My kids are so far past this, that it will only hold them back. I have a very strong feeling about this, as I have also always been very mathematically inclined. Do any of you have experience with this program? Do your children use it in school? I am planning on approaching the principal about possibly substituting some of the Touchmath worksheets with MEP. Please help me build a solid case against the use of this program for the twins. I am not the best at explaining even why this program is completely counterproductive, so please help me find some good arguments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiMi 4under3 Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 I have experience with Touchmath because I work with special needs students. It is great for keeping remedial students on par with their age group, sort of like a calculater for younger kids. I have no personal experience with Touchmath, but a friend's DD, who is severely dyslexic and has several LD's, is using Touchmath in ps in a special-ed class. My understanding is that it's a remedial program. But I may be wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vida Winter Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 Touchmath was one of the reasons I pulled my dd out of public school. For kids that "get" math, it will put them back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcadia Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 My older was taught touch math as an add-on in 1st grade B&M public school. The core math was EnVision Math though and the homework was from EnVision Math and also Math Minutes. He only had a few worksheets to do in class on TouchMath in a year and that's all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoppeltGemoppelt Posted October 9, 2014 Author Share Posted October 9, 2014 Arcadia, my kids also use EnVision Math (which I have been ok with), so hopefully this will be used as an add on and not carry over to the upper grades. Yes, it is a remedial program. Many kids in our district do not "get" math, but does it have to be taught to the whole class as a valid strategy to use? Vida Winter: I would love to pull my kids, but cannot afford it financially. Do you have any suggestion how I can show that Touchmath is an incorrect way for "mathy" kids to learn math? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneStepAtATime Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 So funny. I invented touchmath in grade 1 for myself. ;) I certainly never taught this terrible approach to my kids. I have at best a murky relationship with math and I am sure this coping technique didn't do me any favors. I guess what gets me about the program is it is like the world's cheapest manipulative approach only the manipulatives cant ever go away, so you are left with kids who are stuck using this dumb habit. IE if they had introduced rods or something it would cost more. So they don't. But then the bad habit of counting on the number is so ingrained you can't get the kids to stop. I have counted on 4 since I was 6 yrs old. UGH Yep, this is me. And I still do it. Very, very inefficient. My kids' school used Touch Math for Kinder and 1st for ALL students, not as a remedial program and I didn't know any better at the time so I didn't use anything else at home. FWIW, both of my kids are dyslexic. Even so, I have tried to stay away from this method now that we are homeschooling. DD and DS came out of brick and mortar with weak number sense. Yes they have learning challenges but Touch Math, while it helped them limp along, did not help them to gain any real understanding of math. Trying to get them to use real manipulatives retroactively and develop better subitization skills once we started homeschooling was challenging. We are finally making significant progress but there was a lot of ground lost in the mean time. TouchMath wasn't' the main cause of those issues but it definitely didn't help the situation. OP, I did a quick search but I can't find any studies long-term regarding Touch Math that are from neutral sources. Since so much of what ps care about now is just the test scores I don't think they are thinking about a strong number sense long-term, just how to get good scores. I am wondering, though, if there IS a study out there. Have you tried looking in any depth? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcadia Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 Arcadia, my kids also use EnVision Math (which I have been ok with), so hopefully this will be used as an add on and not carry over to the upper grades. His 1st grade teacher mentioned Touch Math was taught to all 1st graders because some kids use their fingers to count. They want the kids to move away from using fingers (holding up one of their hand and counting with other hand). So Touch Math is used as the transition from using fingers, to doing it mentally. That was how she explained it during back to school night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneStepAtATime Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 His 1st grade teacher mentioned Touch Math was taught to all 1st graders because some kids use their fingers to count. They want the kids to move away from using fingers (holding up one of their hand and counting with other hand). So Touch Math is used as the transition from using fingers, to doing it mentally. That was how she explained it during back to school night. Which makes some sense. I think that is what the kids' school was trying to do. Not all kids need something like that, though, and it can become a crutch even for those who might, IMHO. If they aren't also being helped to move past that method, they may be trapped with this method forever. I wonder if schools realize that some kids may need specific instruction and experience with real manipulatives to do that, and that those kids who do not need something like Touch Math will be very bored at the least and may regress/start hating math in a worst case scenario. I think abacus use, if taught by someone who truly understands it, might be more beneficial in the long run. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vida Winter Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 Vida Winter: I would love to pull my kids, but cannot afford it financially. Do you have any suggestion how I can show that Touchmath is an incorrect way for "mathy" kids to learn math? It has been so many years I can't remember enough to build a case. You could look up curriculum samples and reviews on the internet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prairiewindmomma Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 Touch math makes you think of numbers as units rather than building on subitizing skills. It interferes with the development of an understanding of place value and makes it difficult to understand number bonds. Manipulatives are concrete examples. Touch math is a an abstract tapping. Kids should instead: work on developing non-count strategies (counting by pairs, partitioning, building ten sets by look only) when counting objects work on number-bonds to ten and creating automatic visual images of what those look like work on the concept of multiplication as counting a certain number so many times Touch math has a time/place in the SN world, but I would be throwing a fit if touch math was forced on my kids.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plink Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 I was taught with touch math. It ruined my ability to memorize math facts. To this day I count fast, I don't add. I count fast for multiplication too - it is bizarre. My mom even tried to drill me on facts at home, but because I could already "see" the touch points on the numbers, I counted silently and quickly before saying the math fact aloud. Did I get to the right answer? Yes. Was it beneficial? No. I still wasn't learning the facts. In the long run, it made me much slower at math, and that became a big deal as I progressed. If a child is generally capable of memorizing math facts, then touch math will cause them to take the easy (at the moment) route and will make them less capable of memorizing facts. I would do my best to avoid any exposure to touch math. That said, I have a dyslexic daughter with multiple memory issues, and I'm considering remediating with touch math because she has proven that rote memory is not something she is capable of. There is a place for touch math. It is a great program. It just isn't for every student. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dmmetler Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 Can they just ignore the touch points and do the math the way they've learned from MEP? Is there any way the teacher can tell what method they've used? I know there have been times in math that DD can skip steps that the book wants her to take, so I've always had her talk me through her thinking, and then let her do it her way once I'm sure she understands it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alessandra Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 I have only seen Touchmath used in local out of district schools for kids with cognitive differences. I sympathize with your position. Schools here often use crutches with students in order to get them to keep up with standards, instead of spending a lot of time with concepts and perhaps making slower progress in a given year. I would not, however, go to the principal and make a big deal of it. Touchmath may have been approved by the local district as a pilot program or as an ongoing part of the curriculum. Instead, I would try an informal talk with the teacher, letting her know that you do math at home and don't need the Touchmath for your kids to do well. The teacher may be more concerned with standardized test performance and could agree. No need to go into detail with what you do at home and how great it is. I had good experiences getting out of Everyday Math when ds knew how to get everything right with standard algorithms. The teacher said it wad fine to forget EM. Not her exact words, but I hope you may be as lucky. ETA find out how long TM is used. It may be for only a few months for most kids. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prairiewindmomma Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 If your principal wants some good dyscalculia resources to use in place of touch math, look to Ronit Bird, Brian Butterworth, and Anne Henderson (particularly RB). Dyscalculia research is Great Britain is decades ahead of where it is here in the US. While only a small percentage of children struggle with dyscalculia, their methods of teaching subitizing, arithmetic, and other mathematical skills can be applied to truly any child. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwik Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 In my kid's school they are taught to use their fingers first, then to use their fingers behind their backs, then to image then count on, then subsitize. For ds7 who was at the counting on andsubsitizing before he turned 5 it set him back but for ds5 it is quite good except he is going to have his basic facts memorised before he gets to counting on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoppeltGemoppelt Posted October 10, 2014 Author Share Posted October 10, 2014 It seems like I won't have to talk to the boys' teacher or principal after all (I always dread those things). Boy #1 said that he won't be using Touchmath, unless he is a remedial math student. I will wait this one out and take a very close look at what he brings home. He has an absolutely phenomenal teacher this year, but math does not seem to be her strong point. Boy #2 has had a permanent sub, since the actual teacher is on maternity leave. Now the substitute had family matters to take care of and they have a new permanent sub. She told my son that she is doesn't believe that Touchmath is ideal for mathematical reasoning, and will avoid it for the kids who don't necessarily need it! For now, I have decided not to step in. Thank you all so much for helping me out! Many of your posts helped me with some good arguments I can use, just in case I will have to in the future. Can you tell how relieved I am? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneStepAtATime Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 It seems like I won't have to talk to the boys' teacher or principal after all (I always dread those things). Boy #1 said that he won't be using Touchmath, unless he is a remedial math student. I will wait this one out and take a very close look at what he brings home. He has an absolutely phenomenal teacher this year, but math does not seem to be her strong point. Boy #2 has had a permanent sub, since the actual teacher is on maternity leave. Now the substitute had family matters to take care of and they have a new permanent sub. She told my son that she is doesn't believe that Touchmath is ideal for mathematical reasoning, and will avoid it for the kids who don't necessarily need it! For now, I have decided not to step in. Thank you all so much for helping me out! Many of your posts helped me with some good arguments I can use, just in case I will have to in the future. Can you tell how relieved I am? :hurray: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alessandra Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 It seems like I won't have to talk to the boys' teacher or principal after all (I always dread those things). Boy #1 said that he won't be using Touchmath, unless he is a remedial math student. I will wait this one out and take a very close look at what he brings home. He has an absolutely phenomenal teacher this year, but math does not seem to be her strong point. Boy #2 has had a permanent sub, since the actual teacher is on maternity leave. Now the substitute had family matters to take care of and they have a new permanent sub. She told my son that she is doesn't believe that Touchmath is ideal for mathematical reasoning, and will avoid it for the kids who don't necessarily need it! For now, I have decided not to step in. Thank you all so much for helping me out! Many of your posts helped me with some good arguments I can use, just in case I will have to in the future. Can you tell how relieved I am? I am glad you didn't rush in. Sometimes these bad ideas do go away on their own, lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwik Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 Isn't it nice when things resolve themselves? :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JanieL Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 I would have to say that having used TouchMath, the key is how it is taught, and that the program is followed. They do offer free teacher training materials to individuals. My understanding is that TouchMath is no longer just a remedial program but is also used internationally as a core math program. They also offer a 100% money back guarantee on all of their products within a year of purchase. I have seen so many students finally reach a full grasping of the concrete and abstract of math by using TouchMath and have personally enjoyed watching their little light bulbs. I have found the TouchMath program and method to be an invaluable math learning tool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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