Co-Ed Fraternities? Why?

[VeritasMama]

Look at the literature and you will see an emerging pattern of correlations between being in a fraternity or sorority, and less prosocial attitudes towards rape and women in general.

 

I understand that people don't like to hear others 'trash' their dearly held family traditions. But the pattern exists.

 

Of course within that pattern, individual differences will exist. But the argument isn't about individual or even family experiences...it's about a pattern of belonging to a fraternity or sorority being correlated, along with other factors, with less prosocial attitudes about rape.

 

I mean, seriously. If there is research out there disputing this convincingly or suggesting a confounding factor that completely blows the fraternity factor out of the water, I'd love to read it.

 

Before anyone starts shouting about how now I'm accusing all men in fraternities of being rapists, I'm not. So don't go there.

 

This isn't a deeply held family tradition, lol. Exact opposite. I only rushed because my friends were doing it and I'm fairly open minded, but it wasn't for me. Too many rules.

 

The research shows that too many fraternities and too many campuses have a culture that needs to change.

 

Fraternities aren't inherently bad, they can be good or bad depending on how the organization is run, and this varies wildly from frat to frat and from chapter to chapter.

 

That is one reason why it is so hard to lump all frats together, they all have different by laws, policies, culture, etc. Some are more similiar than others.

 

Some frats have banned hazing and alcohol altogether, and the ones on my campus that had took that very seriously.

 

I simply don't think the solution to the problem is to demonize every frat.

 

Deal with the bad ones. If that means that a campus needs to ban frats, so be it. It all needs to be dealt with according to the situation and needs of the local community.

 

That is my only point, and I don't understand why it is being argued with. Deal with the bad frats without demonizing the good ones. If you are arguing that there are no good frats, well I can't take you seriously because I've experienced some first hand.

[mom31257]

Sadie, I only thought your comment about behavior was referring to rape and such because I had just posted the article about rapes leading to the school doing this. I guess I'm still confused. Were you serious or sarcastic about diversity helping? I honestly want to know.

 

 

I was not part of a sorority, even though my Christian college had them. I was asked but turned it down. Our school had no drinking on campus, no coed dorms, and the opposite sex wasn't allowed in the dorms other than lobbies.

 

There were no reported rapes while I was there, or any of the stories I hear about the Greek clubs. I guess it makes me feel that the drinking is the biggest cause of the problems. I think that is what these schools should be focusing on, not co-ed living quarters.

[VeritasMama]

I read it then, skimmed it again, and believed it.

 

Most schools with greek systems aren't going to get rid of them, they're too good to the schools. Fraternity and sorority members are more likely to graduate and more likely to be donors. They remember school fondly and stay more involved. There's too much Alumni money involved to turn them away.

I don't think this would be the issue at my University. There was a frat at my school a few years ago that had some illegal things going on and were booted from campus.

 

Honestly, if the Greek system were abolished then I think some other organization would be created to take it's place. It is about socializing, but there is also a huge emphasis on community service and giving back in a lot of frats and sororities that can appeal to certain types of people. My friends had a lot of mandatory service projects they had to attend. I think the types of people who get up early to pick up trash on a Saturday are the type who will donate and contribute to their Alma Mater even if they don't experience "Greek life."

[VeritasMama]

If you're frustrated with how this conversation is going, I'm doubly so.

 

If there is research showing that particular types of fraternities, with particular types of interventions, work to create social groups with prosocial attitudes to rape and women in general, especially when compared to peers not in a fraternity, then I personally would find that very interesting and would love to read it.

 

And maybe that could move the conversation on from some very over-the-top defensiveness.

Sadie, I don't need a study to tell me that there are good frats out there, that is something I've experienced first hand.

 

The burden of proof is on the prosecution. If you want to claim that all frats are bad for society, you have to prove it. You can't, because they aren't. There are good frats with good people who cause no harm and serve the community.

 

The problem frats need to be dealt with harshly, abolish them if need be.

 

Why is this so difficult to agree with? It seems you are just digging in your heels.

[Catwoman]

If you're frustrated with how this conversation is going, I'm doubly so.

 

If there is research showing that particular types of fraternities, with particular types of interventions, work to create social groups with prosocial attitudes to rape and women in general, especially when compared to peers not in a fraternity, then I personally would find that very interesting and would love to read it.

 

And maybe that could move the conversation on from some very over-the-top defensiveness.

That's interesting, because I thought the accusations were very over-the-top.

 

I guess it all depends on your perspective. ;)

[Catwoman]

Sadie, I don't need a study to tell me that there are good frats out there, that is something I've experienced first hand.

 

The burden of proof is on the prosecution. If you want to claim that all frats are bad for society, you have to prove it. You can't, because they aren't. There are good frats with good people who cause no harm and serve the community.

 

The problem frats need to be dealt with harshly, abolish them if need be.

 

Why is this so difficult to agree with? It seems you are just digging in your heels.

:iagree:

 

I simply don't understand why it is so impossible to acknowledge that there are both good and bad fraternities.

 

I didn't realize this would be such a hot-button topic, particularly to someone with no personal connection whatsoever to fraternities or sororities. I'm truly baffled about the intense negative sentiments.

[Catwoman]

What accusation Cat ?

 

Is it an accusation to say that there is an existing pattern in the research that indicates belonging to a fraternity is correlated with less prosocial attitudes and behaviours towards rape and women in general ?

 

Or is that just stating...idk..a pattern in the research ?

 

I don't feel intense about it at all. I'm just bemused no-one sees the difference between talking about the research to date, and being dramatic, anti-American and with a personal vendetta against fraternities. It's really very interesting.

Well, considering that you said, "fraternities are stupid," in an earlier post to the thread, I hardly expected you to start trying to dig up pro-fraternity research studies. :rolleyes:

[Catwoman]

I think the alcohol culture could be a huge part of it too. It would be interesting to look at rates of drinking by those in fraternities as compared to their non-fraternity peers and tease the factors behind any differences.

 

Yes, the comment about diversity as a tool was just my understanding of the thinking behind making fraternities co-ed. I agree with the concept but have no particular idea about whether or not it would work or is appropriate in the situation.

 

I would actually love to be able to send my kids to a no-alcohol college, although I imagine enforcing that would be a nightmare...and I think single sex dorms, especially for women, should be an option.

I absolutely agree (look -- we're agreeing! :D) that alcohol is a huge issue on college campuses, and not just in fraternities -- although it has always seemed like certain fraternities were comprised of serious partiers and attracted wilder kids. Honestly, anyone who goes to parties and gets drunk enough to pass out or be seriously impaired is a moron, whether it is a male or a female. Get enough drunken idiots in a house and stupid (and possibly dangerous) things are going to happen.

 

The point a few of us were trying to make is that not all fraternities and sororities are known for wild parties and public drunkenness. It's not something you can generalize about.

[Catwoman]

I'm happy to read any that show how fraternities promote pro-social attitudes and behaviours re rape. I asked for that several comments ago actually.

 

Thinking boys clubs are stupid is an opinion. We're all allowed opinions. It's not a particularly radical or nasty one. Anyone would think I'd suggested firebombing fraternities or something.

Sororities are girls' clubs and people rarely complain about them. Why is it that the boys seem to get all of the negative attention?

[hornblower]

Yes, the link I posted above specifically talked about sororities, alcohol use, & their attitudes to rape myth and the bystander effect.

This looks interesting too & it's very utd:
 

The Influence of Fraternity and Sorority Involvement: A Critical Analysis of Research (1996 - 2013), AEHE 39:6

http://ca.wiley.com/WileyCDA/WileyTitle/productCd-1118866975.html

There's a fair chunk of the beginning & summary of findings on google scholar.

 

[Mrs Mungo]

I absolutely agree (look -- we're agreeing! :D) that alcohol is a huge issue on college campuses, and not just in fraternities

When I attended college, my school was known as a party school (eta: I didn't party, I had two jobs, lol). About...I think ten years after(?) some students died of alcohol poisoning. It is now a dry campus and has been for nearly ten years. There is no alcohol allowed in dorms, fraternities, sororities or campus functions. It includes a 3 strikes policy, after which students are expelled. Off campus events that are hosted by university affiliated organizations have strict rules to follow regarding alcohol. Students receive education about alcohol abuse, etc.

[mom31257]

I think the alcohol culture could be a huge part of it too. It would be interesting to look at rates of drinking by those in fraternities as compared to their non-fraternity peers and tease the factors behind any differences.

 

Yes, the comment about diversity as a tool was just my understanding of the thinking behind making fraternities co-ed. I agree with the concept but have no particular idea about whether or not it would work or is appropriate in the situation.

 

I would actually love to be able to send my kids to a no-alcohol college, although I imagine enforcing that would be a nightmare...and I think single sex dorms, especially for women, should be an option.

 

 

Dd wants to go to a college like that.  Are there none available there?

 

Dd is planning to apply to our alma mater. They still have the same rules about dorms and drinking. This is a conservative school (but not Bob Jones level if you know what that is) that even requires a minor in religion and chapel attendance (choices of types of services). They don't require every student to be a Christian, but they do expect them to be respectful of the process.  

 

There were students who went off campus to drink. The town itself is conservative, too, but 25 minutes away is a city with more party type places. There are about 5000 students now as compared to 1600 when dh and I graduated, so I'm sure there will be plenty of students who do those things off campus now. 

 

My thing is how can the universities not try to work on the drinking issues because it isn't even legal for most of these students to be having alcohol. Why do local police not go into these parties more often and arrest people? If they did that enough, would it at least reduce it happening? I don't see why blatantly broken laws are ignored "because kids will be kids".  

[flyingiguana]

My personal experience with sororities/fraternities:

I've never lived/been in one, but I have taught at a large university that had a ton of them.

 

The kids in the Greek system were cliquish.  They were not involved in the classroom community except to dominate it (the men).  The women hung in the back and whispered quietly to each other.  I taught a lot of classes, so I saw this over and over with different groups of students.  The non-Greek students were all over the map -- introverts, clowns, failures, quiet successes, tutors of the slower students, classroom leaders (not dominators)....  But the Greek students all seemed to fit into a certain stereotype.

 

So, no, I don't think the Greek system was a good thing for the overall health of that campus.  There were enough non-Greek students that the Greek system didn't totally overwhelm the campus, but it was a definite presence in the classroom.  And not in a positive way.

 

I've also known a number of people later in life who were in frats/sororities in college.  Most did seem to be active in that group still, and it did seem to be a positive for them.  A few, though, thought being in a sorority was a mistake.  Not only did it wreck their college life, it was still affecting them negatively many years after college.  (I have never met a frat man who had that opinion)  This mostly seemed to be the result of marrying the wrong man too early -- due to pressure within the sorority.  I'm sure this isn't an official policy of sororities, but this is the pressure many of those women end up feeling.

 

Most of my observations were at that one school and over a decade ago, so it's possible that's a biased view.  But given the national nature of the Greek houses, I would be surprised if my experience were unique.  I'd also be surprised if things have changed all that much, given the conservative nature of the institution.

 

On the other hand, for many of those kids, it made negotiating a huge university possible.  They would have been lost without a core group of built in friends.  If a large university were to ban the sororities and fraternities, I think they'd have to replace it with something to help guide those students who need that.

[skimomma]

My personal experience with sororities/fraternities:

I've never lived/been in one, but I have taught at a large university that had a ton of them.

 

The kids in the Greek system were cliquish.  They were not involved in the classroom community except to dominate it (the men).  The women hung in the back and whispered quietly to each other.  I taught a lot of classes, so I saw this over and over with different groups of students.  The non-Greek students were all over the map -- introverts, clowns, failures, quiet successes, tutors of the slower students, classroom leaders (not dominators)....  But the Greek students all seemed to fit into a certain stereotype.

 

So, no, I don't think the Greek system was a good thing for the overall health of that campus.  There were enough non-Greek students that the Greek system didn't totally overwhelm the campus, but it was a definite presence in the classroom.  And not in a positive way.

 

I've also known a number of people later in life who were in frats/sororities in college.  Most did seem to be active in that group still, and it did seem to be a positive for them.  A few, though, thought being in a sorority was a mistake.  Not only did it wreck their college life, it was still affecting them negatively many years after college.  (I have never met a frat man who had that opinion)  This mostly seemed to be the result of marrying the wrong man too early -- due to pressure within the sorority.  I'm sure this isn't an official policy of sororities, but this is the pressure many of those women end up feeling.

 

Most of my observations were at that one school and over a decade ago, so it's possible that's a biased view.  But given the national nature of the Greek houses, I would be surprised if my experience were unique.  I'd also be surprised if things have changed all that much, given the conservative nature of the institution.

 

On the other hand, for many of those kids, it made negotiating a huge university possible.  They would have been lost without a core group of built in friends.  If a large university were to ban the sororities and fraternities, I think they'd have to replace it with something to help guide those students who need that.

 

Again, there is just too much diversity within the greek community to make generalizations.  I also teach at a university with a prominent greek system and have not has this experience at all.  In fact, my greek students, as well as my athletes, tend to be my best and most engaged students.

 

Athletes.  Yep.  Another stereotype busted in my (anecdotal) experience.

 

Our university has stats on scholarship.  As a group, both the athletes and greek members have a higher GPA than the entire campus population.  

 

Another stat our university records is public service hours.  Again, the greek individuals spend a lot (magnitudes, in fact) more time serving the community.

 

What is not recorded is anything about "rape culture."  So, I cannot comment on that.  

 

I am not defender of greeks in general.  I would not encourage my dd to join one.  But my hackles go up when a whole group of people are deemed "stupid."

 

There are plenty of stupid greeks (and football players and politicians and......).  I do not believe that frats (or sports teams or government institutions) cause the stupidity.  In some cases they may aid to encourage/cover-up/feed the stupidity.  Some may even attract a certain brand of stupid (like the rape culture mentioned in posts above).  But I don't think abolishing the organizations is going to significantly decrease the stupid.  Those issues go much deeper than the individual organizations.

[Catwoman]

Actually, the literature mentions similar things re sororities as fraternities.

 

Again, so deliriously happy if someone would like to broaden my outlook by directing me to research disputing this.

Why would we bother researching something with which we are already familiar? I'm not trying to be rude, but if you need to see research, you will probably have to find it on your own. You seem to think this topic is important enough for serious debate, but it appears that most of us with actual experience on college campuses with fraternities and sororities don't see it as being important enough to get all worked up about.

 

Truly, this is a far bigger issue to you than it is to us. No college student is forced to be part of a fraternity, nor to be involved in any of their activities, so it is not only a non-issue for many of us on this forum, but to most college students as well.

 

I still think you have an incredibly biased and unrealistic image of the Greek system, and it still puzzles me why you even care whether or not a limited number of American students are joining organizations which aren't of the slightest concern to you and which have absolutely no effect upon you or anyone you know. Maybe it's some sort of global social conscience thing in your mind, but believe me, there are about a bazilllion more important things to focus on than fraternities and sororities on college campuses.

[hornblower]

To me, it seems you're minimizing the issues.

Wesleyan & Dartmouth - 2 powerhouse schools  - are mentioned in this story as having huge debates about this topic. But we're supposed to just ignore it cause there are more important things?

"Dartmouth's change follows years of debate about the role of fraternities on campus and comes just months after a majority on a student council overseeing sororities boycotted the midwinter rush because they believed the Greek system was unsafe for women. Hundreds of faculty members and two former Dartmouth presidents have advocated for a dramatic overhaul or abolition of the Greek system.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/09/22/wesleyan-dartmouth-fraternities_n_5863616.html

& it very much IS a global issue because the US is a global powerhouse & frats and sororities are associated with many leadership roles

"Fraternity men make up 85 percent of U.S. Supreme Court justices since 1910, 63 percent of all U.S. presidential cabinet members since 1900, and, historically, 76 percent of U.S. Senators, 85 percent of Fortune 500 executives,and 71 percent of the men in “Who’s Who in America.† And that’s not counting the 18 ex-frat U.S. presidents since 1877 (that’s 69 percent) and the 120 Forbes 500 CEOs (24 percent) from the 2003 list, including 10—or one-third—of the top 30. In the 113th Congress alone, 38 of the hundred Senate members come from fraternity (and, now, sorority) backgrounds, as does a full quarter of the House."
 
 http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2014/02/18-us-presidents-were-in-college-fraternities/283997/

It's an important social & cultural phenomenon.

 

[TranquilMind]

Well since they mention safety repeatedly, I'm guessing they think including women will reduce hazing and systemic date-rape incidents.

 

Not sure I agree, but then I also didn't agree with MIT's coed bathrooms when I was deciding about colleges.

What???   I have one interested in MIT.  Not cool at all. 

[Catwoman]

To me, it seems you're minimizing the issues.

 

Wesleyan & Dartmouth - 2 powerhouse schools - are mentioned in this story as having huge debates about this topic. But we're supposed to just ignore it cause there are more important things?

 

"Dartmouth's change follows years of debate about the role of fraternities on campus and comes just months after a majority on a student council overseeing sororities boycotted the midwinter rush because they believed the Greek system was unsafe for women. Hundreds of faculty members and two former Dartmouth presidents have advocated for a dramatic overhaul or abolition of the Greek system.

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/09/22/wesleyan-dartmouth-fraternities_n_5863616.html

 

& it very much IS a global issue because the US is a global powerhouse & frats and sororities are associated with many leadership roles

 

"Fraternity men make up 85 percent of U.S. Supreme Court justices since 1910, 63 percent of all U.S. presidential cabinet members since 1900, and, historically, 76 percent of U.S. Senators, 85 percent of Fortune 500 executives,and 71 percent of the men in “Who’s Who in America.†And that’s not counting the 18 ex-frat U.S. presidents since 1877 (that’s 69 percent) and the 120 Forbes 500 CEOs (24 percent) from the 2003 list, including 10—or one-third—of the top 30. In the 113th Congress alone, 38 of the hundred Senate members come from fraternity (and, now, sorority) backgrounds, as does a full quarter of the House."

 

http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2014/02/18-us-presidents-were-in-college-fraternities/283997/

 

It's an important social & cultural phenomenon.

 

 

Well, since it seems to be so important to you non-Americans, please feel free to research and debate about it as much as you'd like. :)

 

As for me, if I want to hear more about the situation at Dartmouth, I can ask several of my family members, who are all Dartmouth graduates, yet have never mentioned all of the hideous problems with this "important and social cultural phenomenon." :rolleyes:

 

Obviously, you care about this and should discuss it. I just can't be bothered to keep trying to convince you that you are making this into a far bigger issue than it really is.

 

Have fun! :)

[skimomma]

To me, it seems you're minimizing the issues.

 

 

 

It's an important social & cultural phenomenon.

 

 

I know this was not directed at me (I don't think anyway), but I'm not sure that I see what the big issues are.

 

I find it hard to get too worked up over "clubs" that adults may or may not choose to join.  If you think they are super-evil dens of stupidity, don't join one.  Don't attend their parties, don't date members, etc.....

[mom31257]

I had no idea how heated this would get! 

 

I was mainly trying to get to the reasons why a school would require on-campus fraternities to admit women when it didn't seem that they were trying to do away with all single sex organizations. The article didn't make it clear. 

 

Then when I found the article saying that this came up after rape situations, I was even more confused. Forcing men and women to live together in order to be part of an organization didn't seem like much of a solution to me. 

 

Immaturity and selfishness are the true culprits, and I think that our country has long been raising generations who live like this for far too late in their lives. 

[Catwoman]

No, and our legal drinking age is 18, so.....

 

Really, I'd just like our culture in general to be more tolerant of those who don't drink. You are pretty much a social outcast here if you don't....OK, hyperbole, but there is a lot of pressure to drink, especially in early adulthood.

 

I never drank and although most of my friends did drink, I never felt any pressure to do the same -- even at those wild college parties people like to discuss. ;)

 

I don't think most people care all that much what others do -- and if some teens and college students have friends who are putting strong pressure on them to do anything, those aren't really friends, are they?

 

Also, where I live, the non-drinkers are always pretty popular, because they can be the designated drivers.

[Firefly]

Just putting it out there:  Sadie, I agree with you 100%.  And I'm an American who had very active Fraternities/Sororities both at my undergrad and graduate universities.  

[KungFuPanda]

No one has addressed the very important social role that black fraternities and sororities have played in the lives of their members. I can't imagine dismantling that system because someone thinks kids who party are stupid.

[Liz CA]

Do they think that if women start living with the men, those bad situations will go away? If so, they are basically saying men are animals and women, with continual contact, tame them. 

 

Or some not so bright administrator thinks that the girls are just jealous of the fraternity and once they are admitted, they would not dare bring charges against "their own."

There is all kinds of illogical and flawed thinking going on in those quarters.

[Reefgazer]

I think including women in fraternities is a moronic idea probably dreamt up by some educational bureaucrat with more time than brains.  However, I personally have a very low opinion of fraternities/sororities for a host of social and academic reasons.  I refused to be associated with them as an undergrad (most of my friends eschewed them as well).  The fraternities and sororities that I have had contact with at my alma mater were mainly Animal House type organizations where the drunken party was what it was all about.  But my DH belonged to a fraternity at Purdue that was academically minded and serious, so I know for a fact that they exist (my DH is way too straight-arrow to associate with the drunken frats that I witnessed at my undergrad establishment). 

 

Different culture. It's a drinking culture here.
 

 

[Erin]

Do they think that if women start living with the men, those bad situations will go away? If so, they are basically saying men are animals and women, with continual contact, tame them. 

 

I realize it isn't even remotely PC, from what I've seen of oil boom-towns, that seems to be true…  :001_unsure:

 

 

that said, my college didn't have Greek houses.  I don't think anyone missed anything, personally.