Co-Ed Fraternities? Why?

[mom31257]

I'm confused by this article. I don't think it makes it clear why the school is requiring this, especially of only residential fraternities. If it's not for all fraternities, then it isn't about equality.

 

 

 

[TechWife]

I'm right there with you - it doesn't make their motivation clear at all. Exactly what are they trying to accomplish? I, too, don't think it's about equality. There was no mention of requiring residential sororities to admit male members. I watched the accompanying video and learned that both of the fraternities have had lawsuits filed against them for date rape situations. If they are hoping to address that situation by requiring them to admit women, it is a very misplaced effort. 

[bettyandbob]

my gut reaction: DUMB

 

Do the sororities not have their own campus owned buildings. Are they going to start rooms within buildings be coed in all dorms. Maybe having two people of the same sex share a particular room or suite is inherently discriminatory as well. What have the national chapters of these organizations said.

 

I wasn't Greek in college and am not real supportive of The Greek system, but that doesn't meant there's something inherently wrong with a club for men and a club for women. In a particular Fraternity is doing something wrong/illegal then properly ban the frat from campus.

 

Maybe this university should just be honest and say the university has decided the Greek system no longer fits their culture and so chapters will be phased out over a couple years. It looks like they came up with this do called gender equity plan so they could deflect to national chapters on how to deal. Plenty of schools for not have Greek societies, so there would be nothing wrong with dropping it altogether.

[mom31257]

Do they think that if women start living with the men, those bad situations will go away? If so, they are basically saying men are animals and women, with continual contact, tame them. 

 

 

[Caroline]

I'm right there with you - it doesn't make their motivation clear at all. Exactly what are they trying to accomplish? I, too, don't think it's about equality. There was no mention of requiring residential sororities to admit male members. I watched the accompanying video and learned that both of the fraternities have had lawsuits filed against them for date rape situations. If they are hoping to address that situation by requiring them to admit women, it is a very misplaced effort.

There is only one sorority at Wesleyan. It is non-residential, so it would not be a part of this ruling.

[Katy]

Well since they mention safety repeatedly, I'm guessing they think including women will reduce hazing and systemic date-rape incidents.

 

Not sure I agree, but then I also didn't agree with MIT's coed bathrooms when I was deciding about colleges.

[mom31257]

 

Not sure I agree, but then I also didn't agree with MIT's coed bathrooms when I was deciding about colleges.

 

What???????? Are they all co-ed, or are co-ed just available? Do they want to go back to the public bath houses? I really don't want or need to see all of that, and PLEASE don't make me. 

[trinchick]

They started the process of requiring this at my alma mater (Trinity College) years ago (like 20 years ago!!). At the time, we perceived it as an effort to push the entire Greek system off campus. The plan was for the fraternities/sororities to lose their charters with their national organizations. The Greek system ran the social life at Trinity, which sounds worse than it was. Fraternity parties dominated the weekend's social events - but they were open to everyone and everyone happily went to all of them. Frankly, it was a total blast. I wasn't in a sorority myself, but I felt 100% comfortable in every single Greek house on campus. But the college wasn't comfortable with this, so they used the co-ed/sexism/safety route as their solution.

 

We're a very traditional, conservative college, and the alumni groups went haywire over this. I think there was a definite financial consequence for the college as donations dropped.

 

DH was in a fraternity that happened to be housed off campus anyway so wasn't affected. Their fraternity was not one of the most popular among the student population (had a community service focus and a bit of a nerdy reputation). However, they did see an uptick in students rushing after the other fraternities were required to go co-ed.

[Katy]

What???????? Are they all co-ed, or are co-ed just available? Do they want to go back to the public bath houses? I really don't want or need to see all of that, and PLEASE don't make me. 

 

Well, this was maybe 17 years ago? It was in all the dorms. I spent the night there and it wasn't as bad as you'd think because the shower and bathroom stalls were complete tiled walls, floor to ceiling, and there were exterior wood locking doors on each stall, but I still thought it was creepy.  What happens when you have to pee at 3 am and come out of a stall to wash your hands to find just you and one drunk guy there?  What happens when someone hides wifi cameras in the vents?  And it's bad enough if you have a period show up early and end up a bloody mess, but washing off the blood in front of guys?  Yuck.  I don't know if it's still that way, but you could probably find out on the prospective student website section.

[chiguirre]

There is only one sorority at Wesleyan. It is non-residential, so it would not be a part of this ruling.

Only fraternities have houses on campus, so this really is an equality issue. Currently, women don't have any comparable accommodations available to them. That really isn't fair. Women pay the same tuition as men, they should have equal access to prime, on-campus living spaces.

[redsquirrel]

Do they think that if women start living with the men, those bad situations will go away? If so, they are basically saying men are animals and women, with continual contact, tame them. 

 

That is an old argument, and completely insulting to both men and women. It was the argument used to allow women into higher education. The men would have to improve their table manners and language with women around. :ack2:

[Ali in OR]

When I read the article, I was thinking of my university that had maybe a dozen fraternity houses with prime on-campus locations and no sorority houses, all in an area with prohibitively expensive off-campus housing. That would be the equity issue as I see it.

[ocelotmom]

What???????? Are they all co-ed, or are co-ed just available? Do they want to go back to the public bath houses? I really don't want or need to see all of that, and PLEASE don't make me. 

 

While not necessarily the case in all such buildings, the dorm my brother was in had two bathrooms per floor - one co-ed and one male or female. So you did have a choice, though it might be less convenient (but no more inconvenient than my own dorm, which had only one single-sex bathroom per floor). Being in a dorm with co-ed bathrooms at all was also voluntary. 

[mom31257]

I did some digging and found this article. I don't think it has anything to do with the location of prime housing. 

 

This quote from the  article baffles me.  "The move follows lawsuits and fraternity incidents involving alleged rapes that led hundreds of students to sign a petition calling on the fraternities to start admitting women.The goals are to reduce sexual assault and gender inequity." 

 

 

 

 

[Harriet Vane]

Idiotic.

 

I don't think it will help the culture of date rape much either.

[flyingiguana]

The fact remains that fraternities are how many kids get their jobs after school -- because they know someone.

 

A non-residential fraternity likely doesn't have as much clout in that sense.  There's something about living in the same house...  Or knowing that this person lived in the house, even if you weren't there at the time.

 

Sororities likely don't pull as much weight in the jobs department.  The women have to be in jobs where they are hiring in order for this to work.  Although there are a lot of women in mid-level jobs now, they may not be the ones doing the hiring and may not be making salary decisions.  And very few of them are hiring for high level jobs (compared to the number of men doing this).

 

So in terms of equity, I can see where a college might decide this was a good thing to do.

 

Maybe they're just couching it in terms of reducing rapes?  I don't know.

 

However, if it is the rape issue and not a jobs equality issue, it does, once again, mean WOMEN have to be charge of keeping men's behavior under control.

[Farrar]

I thought most colleges had co-ed bathrooms now for at least some of their dorms. The women's college I attended twenty years ago even had co-ed bathrooms - one per dorm. For male visitors, you know.

[mom31257]

Fraternities are just weird to anyone outside the culture. It's because diversity is a useful tool in challenging antisocial attitudes, beliefs and behaviours.

 

21st Century. Let's all join it.

 

Are you saying that in the 21st Century males and females need to live together in order to combat the behaviors of males raping females and drunken brawls? That actually seems far from this century and like a step back in time. People should be responsible for keeping their own behavior in line.

 

Part of the problem is how universities, parents, and society treat the college years like these behaviors are expected and that they are kids. If we expected teens to grow up and actually be adults by the age of 18, then I think a lot less of this would happen.  

[VeritasMama]

Only fraternities have houses on campus, so this really is an equality issue. Currently, women don't have any comparable accommodations available to them. That really isn't fair. Women pay the same tuition as men, they should have equal access to prime, on-campus living spaces.

Uh, none of the Frats I was in in college were "prime on campus living spaces." The sororities I saw during Rush (I rushed but didn't pledge) were MUCH nicer. Also, the frats and sororities on my campus were all much more expensive than the dorms and you paid the frat directly, it wasn't a part of the housing system at all. Is that different other places?

 

I think this doesn't pass the smell test, it seems like the college wants to either get rid of the frat or change the "Greek culture" on campus for some reason.

 

I'm not "pro-Greek," lol, though I have attended some fun parties in my day. They were also open to the whole campus.

[hornblower]

yeah, to me fraternities and sororities are weird. They're not very big here at all.  In 6 years of uni at 2 different universities, and living 3 years on campus, I only knew one person who was involved in greek stuff.

Some of the universities actually have 'sort of' bans. 'Sort of' in the sense that they're not officially recognized by the University Students Society but of course anyone can form any club they like.....

[VeritasMama]

Fraternities are just weird to anyone outside the culture. It's because diversity is a useful tool in challenging antisocial attitudes, beliefs and behaviours.

 

21st Century. Let's all join it.

I think we need to stop implying that people who don't want to be in a co-ed living arrangement are "weird" or "anti-social" or sexist.

 

I lived in a women's dorm for 2 years. There were co-ed dorms on campus. I didn't want to live in them. That doesn't make me weird or anti-social.

[VeritasMama]

That wasn't my implication.

That is what I took away from your comment. That co-ed living arrangements help us avoid being anti-social. That would seem to imply that those of us who do not like co-ed living arrangements are risking being anti-social. If that wasn't what you intended to imply, it would be great if you could elaborate, I don't see what point you are trying to make. Is it just men who need to be forced to live with the other sex to learn tolerance? Is that what you are saying?

 

Your snarky comment about joining the 21st century was condescending and annoying to me, since I am someone who attended college in the 21st century and do not care for co-ed dorms.

[Caroline]

Uh, none of the Frats I was in in college were "prime on campus living spaces." The sororities I saw during Rush (I rushed but didn't pledge) were MUCH nicer. Also, the frats and sororities on my campus were all much more expensive than the dorms and you paid the frat directly, it wasn't a part of the housing system at all. Is that different other places?

 

I think this doesn't pass the smell test, it seems like the college wants to either get rid of the frat or change the "Greek culture" on campus for some reason.

 

I'm not "pro-Greek," lol, though I have attended some fun parties in my day. They were also open to the whole campus.

I think the poster you were quoting was specifically talking about the frats at Wesleyan, not frat houses in general.

[Caroline]

I'm saying fraternities are stupid. Lol. Clear enough ? If it would help, I am happy to go back and edit out the snark.

What do you know about American fraternities? Did you go to college in America?

[Caroline]

Oh dear, the cultural slap down. Again. Listen. Most of us in the rest of the world educate ourselves about America and American culture. It's not like we get a choice.

 

You don't need to have lived in a fraternity to have an opinion about the concept of fraternities, and have knowledge about correlations between fraternities and antisocial behaviour.

You have said fraternities are stupid. I am just saying you don't have any firsthand knowledge of them. And you don't.

[skimomma]

I'm saying fraternities are stupid.

 

I do not have an opinion about the university in question or that situation since I cannot know what the issues/motivation is behind the changes.

 

But, I was greek in college and as a result many people that I knew/know were/are greek, both male and female.  It was a very good experience for me.  And like anything, there are good and bad people everywhere, including in the greek system.  

 

I don't think you can paint with such a broad stroke.  

 

Every college is different, every greek organization is different, and every student is different.  I have seen very good and very bad greek experiences.  

 

I cannot say it is a system worth preserving at all cost.  I am quite sure it will eventually vanish.  But there is value for a lot of people and most members/organizations do not even remotely resemble the stereotypes.  Some do but most do not.  I can say the organization I belonged to is nothing like the stereotypical sorority.  Not even sort-of close.

[Catwoman]

You have said fraternities are stupid. I am just saying you don't have any firsthand knowledge of them. And you don't.

:iagree:

 

I think you only truly understand fraternities and sororities if you have either been in one of them or if they were very visible on your college campus. Otherwise, I don't think you can really get them, because most of the rumors and information about them that we see online or on the news is often wildly inaccurate.

 

And let's not forget all of the idiotic fraternity/sorority movies. :rolleyes:

 

I didn't interpret any of the comments as being a "cultural slap down." I think what people were trying to say is that this is one of those things you can't learn about online or from a book or movie. I don't think anyone meant to be insulting.

[hornblower]

http://online.wsj.com/articles/wesleyan-fraternities-must-go-coed-1411437437

It only affects fraternities that offer housing.
"sorority won't be forced to include men because it doesn't have residential housing."

"

A survey conducted by the Wesleyan student government this year showed that 61% of those polled believe fraternities have "a negative impact" on gender relations, and 56% said the campus would be improved through coeducational fraternities.

Trinity College, also in Connecticut, mandated mixed-gender fraternities in 2012. Middlebury College in Vermont mandated coed fraternities before turning them into "social houses" in the early 1990s. Many schools, including Columbia University in Manhattan, offer fraternity-like coed social clubs."



 

[VeritasMama]

I've never seen a fraternity movie, so if you think I'm basing my ideas on Frat House 4 you're all sadly mistaken.

 

But go ahead, defend archaic and elitist social organisations...I'm sure y'all know best.

My working class high school friend who joined a frat was not an elitist. There are elitist frats, but frats as a whole or not elitist, and the people I knew in frats were quite diverse. The frats on my campus also threw plenty of parties and events that were open to anyone, of course some of them did this more often than others.

 

The bad actors are the ones who make the news.

[VeritasMama]

Yep, just those pesky bad seeds. Nothing to do with the culture at all.

The "culture" of the frat depends on the frat. As someone who attended a University with a very diverse collection of frats, I can tell you don't know what you're talking about.

 

My friend joined a frat because he wanted a more academically oriented place to live than the dorms. His frat was known for being very focused on academics and community service, a lot of engineers and pre-med students, etc. They had very few parties, the ones they did have were very tame. They were all "gentlemen." That sounds so quaint but that's what they were. He jut wanted a calm environment to study and work hard in, the dorms on our campus were rowdy.

 

Down the street was the frat that exactly resembled Animal House. Wild bunch of misfits, parties every night, everyone would go. A few of my friends from this frat ended up flunking out.

 

These represent opposite ends of the spectrum, our school also had everything else in between.

 

Of course I attended a public University in the Midwest, we only had enough "elitists" to populate one frat house. I'm sure at Ivy League schools the population of "elitists" is much higher, hence the concentration of "elitist" frats.

 

America is really not homogenous at all, you can't make sweeping assumptions about anything here.

[Catwoman]

I've never seen a fraternity movie, so if you think I'm basing my ideas on Frat House 4 you're all sadly mistaken.

 

But go ahead, defend archaic and elitist social organisations...I'm sure y'all know best.

  

Yep, just those pesky bad seeds. Nothing to do with the culture at all.

Wow.

 

For someone who has no actual, real-life knowledge about fraternities and sororities, you certainly seem to be having a tremendously strong negative emotional reaction to this thread.

 

I don't understand it. Why does it matter to you?

 

And FWIW, your impressions are inaccurate. You truly don't understand as much as you think you do.

[VeritasMama]

As a personal concern ? It matters to me not at all.

 

As an abstract concern ? Who isn't concerned about any of the multiplicity of factors that play into violence against women and other men ? One of which is suggested to be the socialisation that some men receive in, and are encouraged by fraternities ?

 

I didn't realise it was such a touchy topic and that's the extent of my cultural naivete....

 

You all really need to start labelling your posts with US only if you really can't handle outsider perspectives.

No one likes stereotyping. You are stereotyping all fraternities based on the negative actions of some fraternities.

 

I already explained to you up thread why your comments are not accurate. Now you are being insulting to all the people who were involved in wonderful fraternities and sororities which are nothing like, and have never been, anything like what you describe.

 

You don't understand the issue as well as you think you do, you should stop insulting those of us with actual first hand knowledge.

[Catwoman]

As a personal concern ? It matters to me not at all.

 

As an abstract concern  ?  Who isn't concerned about any of the multiplicity of factors that play into violence against women and other men ? One of which is suggested to be the socialisation that some men receive in, and are encouraged by fraternities ?

 

I didn't realise it was such a touchy topic and that's the extent of my cultural naivete....

 

You all really need to start labelling your posts with US only if you really can't handle outsider perspectives.

  

Lol, it's not insulting to critique a form of social grouping that can result in negative and anti-social behaviour towards women to a greater extent than other social groupings.

 

You are taking things WAY too personally here.

Sadie, you know I like you, but you really don't have the slightest clue about this.

 

Your comments are wildly inaccurate and you are also coming across as being very anti-American. No one has made any sweeping generalizations about your culture. Perhaps you should extend us the same grace, particularly on a topic about which you have no actual knowledge.

[hornblower]

"Research has shown that fraternity men are significantly more likely than other college men and the general population to approve of coercing women to engage in sexual behavior"

http://www.academia.edu/3288958/Sorority_womens_and_fraternity_mens_rape_myth_acceptance_and_bystander_intervention_attitudes

This is American research. There are Americans concerned about this issue too.
 

 

FTR, my interest is that I live 30 min drive from the US border & your culture kind of spills over ;)  While greek life is not big here on the West coast, it's a bigger thing out East.

[Reefgazer]

*eye roll*  I guess we'll be calling them "frarorities" from now on.  Eh, the fraternities on campus will just move off to avoid the nonsense.

[AurieD]

The fact that there are some fantastic fraternities and sororities out there does not negate the fact that (in my somewhat educated opinion that is backed up by many sources as a quick search of the literature will show you) as a whole fraternities and sororities have negative social impacts.

 

A pet hate of mine is the idea that unless someone has directly experienced something they could not possible know anything about it and are not entitled to an opinion. I actually believe that people who are outside of something can sometimes offer greater insight because they are not caught up in their own particular experience of said thing. (Notice my use of the word sometimes, I am not dismissing he idea that experiences can help in knowledge of something).

 

And how exactly does disliking the Greek system come across as being anti-American, surely it is one small part of US culture?

 

(Another pesky outsider who agrees with Sadie that fraternities are stupid)

[Catwoman]

The fact that there are some fantastic fraternities and sororities out there does not negate the fact that (in my somewhat educated opinion that is backed up by many sources as a quick search of the literature will show you) as a whole fraternities and sororities have negative social impacts.

 

A pet hate of mine is the idea that unless someone has directly experienced something they could not possible know anything about it and are not entitled to an opinion. I actually believe that people who are outside of something can sometimes offer greater insight because they are not caught up in their own particular experience of said thing. (Notice my use of the word sometimes, I am not dismissing he idea that experiences can help in knowledge of something).

 

And how exactly does disliking the Greek system come across as being anti-American, surely it is one small part of US culture?

 

(Another pesky outsider who agrees with Sadie that fraternities are stupid)

It's fine to offer an opinion, but one can't offer "greater insight" with no practical knowledge whatsoever of the topic.

 

No one here has a problem with people disliking the concept of fraternities and sororities, but some of us do take issue with people who post incredibly dramatic opinions about it without the slightest knowledge of what Greek life is like on American college campuses.

[Mrs Mungo]

Well since they mention safety repeatedly, I'm guessing they think including women will reduce hazing and systemic date-rape incidents.

 

If it is such a huge problem, then they should consider dissolving the Greek system. That would make much more sense, IMO.

 

ETA: Did everyone read that article on frats and lawsuits a while back? I am positive it was posted here. I do NOT believe that anyone who experienced the Greek system 20 years ago has greater insight on what is happening NOW.

[Catwoman]

Anyone who wants to criticise rape culture in men's colleges in Australia with me is very welcome to do so. I don't need grace extended to me on that or any other topic regarding Australian culture.

 

Anti-American ?! I thought McCarthyism was dead and buried.

 

I guess some traditions are just hands-off, despite - maybe because of ? - the research.

 

I have absolutely no knowledge of the rape culture in Australia. I wasn't even aware that it existed, but I will take your word for it.

 

And about the fraternity thing -- the topic isn't "hands-off" and I would bet the vast majority of people have never been a part of a fraternity or sorority, so most people probably don't care about them one way or the other. You seem to be making a bigger deal out of them and their negative effects on society than any American I know. It's not like the people here are sitting around debating the merits of these organizations; they are a complete non-issue for most people, including college students.

[Mrs Mungo]

Here is the story from The Atlantic. After this, I would insist that my child NEVER set foot in a Greek house.

 

http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2014/02/the-dark-power-of-fraternities/357580/

[Mrs Mungo]

Also, the frats and sororities on my campus were all much more expensive than the dorms and you paid the frat directly, it wasn't a part of the housing system at all. Is that different other places?

Most universities (including mine) require that freshmen live on campus or with their families. It was a requirement when I was in school and still is (I have cousins there). Living in a Greek house generally counts as living on campus, providing the house is on campus. So, yes and no. No, you don't pay the university, but yes, it could be an equal access issue.

[Catwoman]

Here is the story from The Atlantic. After this, I would insist that my child NEVER set foot in a Greek house.

 

http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2014/02/the-dark-power-of-fraternities/357580/

But if they get rid of the fraternities, all those drunken idiots will have to move into the regular dorms. :eek:

[kitten18]

If it is such a huge problem, then they should consider dissolving the Greek system. That would make much more sense, IMO.

 

ETA: Did everyone read that article on frats and lawsuits a while back? I am positive it was posted here. I do NOT believe that anyone who experienced the Greek system 20 years ago has greater insight on what is happening NOW.

Things with my DH's fraternity at the university where we went to school are vastly different than they were 20 years ago.  They're much tamer, they drink much less, and they have systems in place to help keep everyone safer.

[Mrs Mungo]

But if they get rid of the fraternities, all those drunken idiots will have to move into the regular dorms. :eek:

Did you actually read the story? Seriously, it is terrifying. ETA: it is about legalities and lawsuits more than bad behavior.

[Mrs Mungo]

Things with my DH's fraternity at the university where we went to school are vastly different than they were 20 years ago. They're much tamer, they drink much less, and they have systems in place to help keep everyone safer.

Again, read the article. This is *current* information.

[Catwoman]

Did you actually read the story? Seriously, it is terrifying. ETA: it is about legalities and lawsuits more than bad behavior.

Yes, I read it, but while I'm sure the stories are accurate, it also seemed as though the author definitely had an axe to grind.

[kitten18]

Again, read the article. This is *current* information.

I did.  I know that the lawsuits and insurance are a big part of why things are much tamer now.

My BIL (10 years younger than us) is on the fraternity board and spends a lot of time there, along with other alumni keeping an eye on things.

[kitten18]

But if they get rid of the fraternities, all those drunken idiots will have to move into the regular dorms. :eek:

I'm not sure why, but this made me think of the Darwin Awards books.  In one of those books I was reading they mentioned that 95% of the stories that get submitted to them are about men/boys.  There are stories about women but they're pretty rare.

[Katy]

If it is such a huge problem, then they should consider dissolving the Greek system. That would make much more sense, IMO.

 

ETA: Did everyone read that article on frats and lawsuits a while back? I am positive it was posted here. I do NOT believe that anyone who experienced the Greek system 20 years ago has greater insight on what is happening NOW.

 

I read it then, skimmed it again, and believed it.

 

Most schools with greek systems aren't going to get rid of them, they're too good to the schools.  Fraternity and sorority members are more likely to graduate and more likely to be donors.  They remember school fondly and stay more involved. There's too much Alumni money involved to turn them away.

[VeritasMama]

The fact that there are some fantastic fraternities and sororities out there does not negate the fact that (in my somewhat educated opinion that is backed up by many sources as a quick search of the literature will show you) as a whole fraternities and sororities have negative social impacts.

 

A pet hate of mine is the idea that unless someone has directly experienced something they could not possible know anything about it and are not entitled to an opinion. I actually believe that people who are outside of something can sometimes offer greater insight because they are not caught up in their own particular experience of said thing. (Notice my use of the word sometimes, I am not dismissing he idea that experiences can help in knowledge of something).

 

And how exactly does disliking the Greek system come across as being anti-American, surely it is one small part of US culture?

 

(Another pesky outsider who agrees with Sadie that fraternities are stupid)

I don't think it came across as anti-American, it came across as rude to the great fraternities and sororities that are out there.

 

Whether or not a Greek system has an overall negative impact depends on the community. That is the point, it varies from frat to frat and from campus to campus. My campus had an overall positive impact from the Greek system, it really depends on the local culture as well.

 

There are sororities an fraternities out there whose main purpose is community service. They leave a very positive impact on the community.

 

I don't think it would be a tragedy if the Greek system disappeared, I just don't think it is fair to lump in all the good organizations with the bad ones. It shows a very shallow understanding of the issue. I don't understand why this is so black and white for some. I can't hate all fraternities because I know too many good people who were in good fraternities and sororities. There were bad ones too, I'm not naive, I just have first hand experience.

 

And I agree with Mrs. Mungo, if an entire Greek system at a campus is rotten to the core, they should just abolish it.