Article critical of homeschooling by Christian fundamentalists

[flyingiguana]

A topic for discussion -- it it hasn't been discussed too much already.

 

" How Christian fundamentalist homeschooling damages children

The religious right touts homeschooling as a viable educational alternative. Parents, grads tell a different story "

 

http://www.salon.com/2014/09/10/how_christian_fundamentalist_homeschooling_damages_children_partner/

[poppy]

The article says that many families, secular and religious, do a wonderful job homescooling. But there are fundamentalists families who use the right to homeschool in a destructive / abusive manner. I think that's pretty commonly accepted here, no?

[SarahW]

I don't think it is biased at all to say that homeschooling should include schooling.

[Joanne]

Notes:

1. I am not a fan of conservative, fundamentalist, Quiverful Christianity.
2. I do believe educational neglect exists in alarming numbers in the homeschooling community
3. I believe the homeschooling community denies the above and is not adequately self reflective or self regulating

That said, what the author of that post writes about is a sub-group (extreme, patriarchal Christians ) of a sub group (conservative homeschooling Christians) of a sub group (homeschoolers).

 

I think that the numbers, using logic, are small. That they exist at all IS alarming, but "homeschoolers" as a group are not represented by the content of that article. In my years of being in education (homeschool, followed by being a professional in a school that was started by the homeschooling population), I have seen very few in person families that are THAT extreme.

 

 

[Word Nerd]

This suggestion by one woman former homeschooler stood out to me, especially since it would apply to all homeschoolers, not just those who may be more prone to educational neglect because of religious or philosophical beliefs:

 

ETA: I just read the sticky note and have deleted the text that I quoted from the story. It was from the section near the end of the article in which Palmer discusses a "homeschool watch list" and the need for the government to make sure every child gets an appropriate education.

 

This raises the question: If the government can't ensure that kids who attend public school get an education appropriate to their age and ability—and I doubt anyone would argue that PS students don't fall through the cracks regularly—how can they do so for homeschoolers? Educational neglect is a problem (and it's hardly limited to fundamentalist homeschoolers), but "more government oversight" is a simplistic solution.

[SarahW]

This suggestion by one woman former homeschooler stood out to me, especially since it would apply to all homeschoolers, not just those who may be more prone to educational neglect because of religious or philosophical beliefs:

 

ETA: I just read the sticky note and have deleted the text that I quoted from the story. It was from the section near the end of the article in which Palmer discusses a "homeschool watch list" and the need for the government to make sure every child gets an appropriate education.

 

This raises the question: If the government can't ensure that kids who attend public school get an education appropriate to their age and ability—and I doubt anyone would argue that PS students don't fall through the cracks regularly—how can they do so for homeschoolers? Educational neglect is a problem (and it's hardly limited to fundamentalist homeschoolers), but "more government oversight" is a simplistic solution.

 

That is not what she was saying. At all. She was saying that a child should be known to be enrolled in public, private, or home school.

 

Because children should have access to education and as a society we should be proactive in making sure that happens. Not the current reactionary system where children are not enrolled in any school, not even registering as homeschoolers (according to local laws), and no one knows.

[Word Nerd]

That is not what she was saying. At all. She was saying that a child should be known to be enrolled in public, private, or home school.

 

Because children should have access to education and as a society we should be proactive in making sure that happens. Not the current reactionary system where children are not enrolled in any school, not even registering as homeschoolers (according to local laws), and no one knows.

 

What is not what she was saying at all? She mentioned that the government needs to make sure kids get an education several times, including in her final request for the author.

 

(My comments were not just about the homeschooler watch list—I mentioned that so that people would know which section of the article I was referring to. My post quoted several paragraphs from the linked story, which is why I deleted it.)

[albeto.]

This just doesn't end well or without hurt feelings, and I wonder why the OP thinks posting about it bears discussing.

 

Perhaps the OP might consider putting a tag on this thread, like "sensitive information" or something. Censoring information for the sake of keeping people happy is logistically impossible, and not at all what many consider an appropriate criteria for education - our children's as well as our own. I'll just leave this comment as a bookmark until I can read the article in the link. 

[poppy]

You'd think a discussion of  terrible and abusive homeschoolers would be of interest on a homeschooling board.

 

[Farrar]

You'd think a discussion of  terrible and abusive homeschoolers would be of interest on a homeschooling board.

 

In fact, I think we, as a community, have a responsibility to speak out against homeschooling as a cover for educational neglect or abuse. Yes, it's a tiny number (thank goodness), but there is a kneejerk "don't even imply that homeschoolers can ever be bad people!" impulse among some people in the homeschool community when I think the impulse should be much more toward trying to think of ways to ensure that abuses (including educational neglect) don't happen. 

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

 

 

I think any article about homeschooling is relevant here. It's good to be informed about what is being said.

[LucyStoner]

The Homeschools Anonymous blog is very interesting and mostly on this topic and a number of their contributors are homeschooling alum speaking out about the neglect and abuse which their parents hid with homeschooling.

 

They are the minority of homeschoolers as a whole, religious and not, but they shouldn't be told to stay quiet about their experiences just because not all homeschoolers are like that.

 

http://homeschoolersanonymous.wordpress.com

[RegularMom]

In my 8+ years of homeschooling, I've seen educational neglect that crosses a broad spectrum of religious belief and homeschool philosophy. This isn't just a Christian homeschoolers problem, nor is it just an unschoolers problem. 

 

And when I've seen the neglect, I've also seen everyone call it something different, and nobody wants to talk about it. Ever. It's like the elephant in the room for homeschoolers. 

 

That being said, I've also seen this kind of extreme fundamentalist upbringing within families who don't homeschool. I think educational neglect is possible even if kids are going to traditional schools. I knew girls in public school who were not permitted to take higher math or science courses once the minimums for graduation were met. They were permitted to only take home economics or secretarial skill building classes. There were not going to college, and they were being groomed for domestic life, so there was no need, apparently. 

 

[flyingiguana]

What good does it do on a forum where there are religious homeschoolers to post a clearly biased, inflammatory article? I just don't see the point of discussing it when one side is convinced they're right and the other is bound to be offended.

 

We homeschool for religious reasons and have a bunch of children. We're traditional in our theological views. But we're not like the article, and my husband's family wasn't either. So what is there to discuss? That it happens? That we have to defend ourselves against the accusation?

 

This just doesn't end well or without hurt feelings, and I wonder why the OP thinks posting about it bears discussing.

 

Ugh.

 

I'm really not sure why bringing up this topic/article is a bad thing. 

 

If one thinks this article is way out in left field, then it would be a good thing to know about it so you could respond to the author.

 

Telling me to suppress the information doesn't seem like the best approach.  Nor does tagging it as sensitive.  I'm assuming we're all adults here who might be interested in varying opinions?

 

I didn't want to say too much about it myself initially because I was interested in people's views.  But now that a few of them are out there --

 

Frankly, I thought the article was pretty poorly written.  It's a few anecdotes that may or may not prove that those particular families committed educational neglect.  However, I think it is important for homeschoolers to know these articles are still out there, and that people are reading them.  People may be forming opinions about YOU based on these articles, without you even knowing.

 

I was actually kind of surprised to see this article.  I was hoping society had got beyond that.  Yeah, there's some homeschooling families that neglect and abuse their kids.  There are ps families who do that too.  Both seem to be in hiding.  Just having kids in ps doesn't mean abuse will get noticed.

 

And if it is true that a few religious groups are abusing their kids, then that's an issue of those groups -- not homeschoolers (even ones who are very religious).  So the conclusions of the author seem a bit out in left field.  I think you can kind of tell even the author thinks that -- as they keep saying NotAllHomeschoolers.  (Even if they don't really believe it)

[flyingiguana]

And I thought calling the homeschool list a "watch list" was fairly inflammatory.

 

It makes me want to reply to the author: but my kids and my family -- we're not like that!

 

But then I felt like if I did I'd just be falling into her trap.  Making excuses for US.  As if we're an exception.

 

Educational neglect and homeschooling are not the same thing.  I hope (and strongly suspect) that the exceptions are the people the author seems to imply are the norm.

[Farrar]

In my 8+ years of homeschooling, I've seen educational neglect that crosses a broad spectrum of religious belief and homeschool philosophy. This isn't just a Christian homeschoolers problem, nor is it just an unschoolers problem. 

 

And when I've seen the neglect, I've also seen everyone call it something different, and nobody wants to talk about it. Ever. It's like the elephant in the room for homeschoolers. 

 

But... and I'm really not trying to dispute your experience, but I am genuinely wondering... is there really any systematic problem of abuse and neglect among homeschool parents who are not fundamentalist, Quiverfull style homeschoolers? And, again, this is not to imply that all fundamentalist Christian homeschoolers are practicing educational neglect or abuse, but rather that there is, within that subcommunity, a pattern of issues that have emerged for many formerly homeschooled children. I have never heard of any such issue for children outside that specific subculture beyond isolated, individual cases. The HA blog doesn't seem to have those sorts of stories.

 

And, to be clear, I don't consider that year so and so didn't get hardly any math done and then decided to put their kids back in school or to finally catch up by having to reteach basic arithmetic or whatever as educational neglect. Or that family that hasn't done science or history in a couple of years because two new babies were born and it was all they could do to cover some phonics and a bit of math. Those are situations that aren't ideal, but they're not neglect... and I would assume they aren't to you either. I also don't think that unschooling family with the 8 yo who can barely read a board book is neglectful - at least not automatically. I think unschooling can become neglect when children are asking for help in learning and for access to resources and they're being denied that help and those resources. However, I know a good number of unschoolers. They can all read and do basic math and they're all still pretty young. I don't see this as a common problem.

 

I guess I just don't see it. And I feel like it minimalizes it to imply that a broad spectrum of people of all religions who homeschool are abusing or neglecting their kids as part of a pattern of behavior. It implies that there isn't a problem that's specific to that particular brand of fundamentalist, patriarchal Christian communities and it implies that homeschoolers in general are more likely to be abusers, which I doubt it what you meant to imply.

[Joanne]

But... and I'm really not trying to dispute your experience, but I am genuinely wondering... is there really any systematic problem of abuse and neglect among homeschool parents who are not fundamentalist, Quiverfull style homeschoolers?

 

 

Yes. Absolutely. I see it all the time.

 

I didn't believe it, either, when I was a homeschooler and staunchly defending it. On this very board, I trotted out homeschool advocacy platitudes defending it. We've had moms and professionals who reported their experience with the homeschooling community and I doubted their experience.

 

But then I started working in a school that originally started with homeschooled students.

 

There are other sub-groups (not organized, necessarily) that have a higher percentage of neglect (educational and perhaps other).

[flyingiguana]

I kind of feel the public school my daughter was in was committing educational neglect, when you get right down to it.  Just because a teacher had a mother or daughter die or whatever during the school year, is that an excuse?  Why didn't the school step in and hire another teacher?  Or at least put a helper in the classroom? 

 

So if schools allow that to happen, why is it so terrible if a hs family has it happen now and then?

 

I mean, sure, ideally it wouldn't happen.  But it has always seemed to me that schools get a pass when their kids come out unable to read or add -- often even without the excuse that a teacher's life was falling apart.

[Farrar]

Yeah, the phrase "homeschool watch list" is absurd.

 

I think the article author is trying to show two things that don't quite jibe: one, that we have no reliable statistics or data about homeschooling. That's true. Two, anecdotal stories of abuse are common therefore abuse is probably common. But these two are at odds with each other. And she dismisses the assertion of the homeschool parents who say it's not common.

 

Look, we don't know. That's very true. However, in the absence of that data, I don't know what else we can rely on other than our experiences. And our experiences are that these stories are sad, too common, but not the norm by any means.

[Farrar]

Yes. Absolutely. I see it all the time.

 

I didn't believe it, either, when I was a homeschooler and staunchly defending it. On this very board, I trotted out homeschool advocacy platitudes defending it. We've had moms and professionals who reported their experience with the homeschooling community and I doubted their experience.

 

But then I started working in a school that originally started with homeschooled students.

 

There are other sub-groups (not organized, necessarily) that have a higher percentage of neglect (educational and perhaps other).

 

Hm... I also worked at a school that took a number of kids for whom homeschooling wasn't working. None of them had experienced neglect. They just were kids who weren't doing well at home - the parents recognized that and eventually sent them to school. I know so many homeschoolers from lots of backgrounds... It's just hard for me to believe.

 

This is where that lack of data gets very frustrating. I know some on this board will slam me for it, but if the government would just keep a clear roster of who's homeschooling and for how long, then we could start to get some actual data. I haven't seen a state regulation that actually helps educate children better (not testing, not portfolios...) but when there are news stories about neglect, it does seem like the most basic, simple regulation is the hardest for parents who are abusers to fulfill - just registration. It boggles my mind a little since it's so simple.

[Χά�ων]

In my 8+ years of homeschooling, I've seen educational neglect that crosses a broad spectrum of religious belief and homeschool philosophy. This isn't just a Christian homeschoolers problem, nor is it just an unschoolers problem. 

 

And when I've seen the neglect, I've also seen everyone call it something different, and nobody wants to talk about it. Ever. It's like the elephant in the room for homeschoolers. 

 

That being said, I've also seen this kind of extreme fundamentalist upbringing within families who don't homeschool. I think educational neglect is possible even if kids are going to traditional schools. I knew girls in public school who were not permitted to take higher math or science courses once the minimums for graduation were met. They were permitted to only take home economics or secretarial skill building classes. There were not going to college, and they were being groomed for domestic life, so there was no need, apparently. 

But but but if mom provides a computer does it matter if she is drunk every day by 10am? /sarcasm. I agree with you. I have met families who do not educate and who think that they can ignore their children and at 18 the children will magically be ready for life and college. 

[Lovingparent]

What bothers me, is that this type of home schooling is STILL the general idea of home education in the public mind. At least where I live. There was a positive article about home schooling in the paper yesterday and the comments following just about broke my heart. People generalise from these home schoolers. This is the picture they have in their head of most of us.

 

This! One of my neighbors came to me and told me point blank (She had previously refused to talk to me and she knows nothing about my son or me) that they should come and take my son away from me, because I lock him in!

Say what? It couldn't have been further from the truth, but the idea that homeschoolers are fundamentalists that want to keep their kids locked and deny them a proper education is very widespread. That is why I think we should actually discuss about this. A better image for homeschooling needs to be created. 

 

As far as the government intervention I find this laughable. There are plenty of kids that fall through the cracks of public schools and get a diploma with no real education to support it. 

[maize]

I think one of the issues we run up against is that generally good news is no news; it is bad news and negative outcomes that catch people's attention. This phenomenon happens in every arena. How often do we see news stories about, for example, the thousands of cops who go about their job every day in a competent and respectful manner? Where's the headline about the senator who has filled his seat honorably for years without ever taking a bribe? When was the last time you gossiped with a neighbor about what a great job your city does with snow removal? If we go by what gets reported and talked about, we would think that the majority of cops abuse their authority, the majority of elected officials are corrupt, and our city governments are incompetent in everything they undertake.

 

We don't hear much about the thousands of homeschool families competently and lovingly educating their kids on a daily business because, well, where's the interest in that story?

[Joanne]

I kind of feel the public school my daughter was in was committing educational neglect, when you get right down to it.  Just because a teacher had a mother or daughter die or whatever during the school year, is that an excuse?  Why didn't the school step in and hire another teacher?  Or at least put a helper in the classroom? 

 

So if schools allow that to happen, why is it so terrible if a hs family has it happen now and then?

 

I mean, sure, ideally it wouldn't happen.  But it has always seemed to me that schools get a pass when their kids come out unable to read or add -- often even without the excuse that a teacher's life was falling apart.

 

Straw man. You can't compare institutional education to homeschooling. The system, accountability, process, and even content can be radically different, requiring a different evaluation mechanism.

 

The flawed logic in your post is that because educational failures happen in b & m schools, they should be expected in homeschools. I am against ANY of it but the fact that mass education fails some should not obscure concern about homeschools that fail.

 

I taught at a local community college, populated by mostly public schooled kids. I saw borderline neglect daily; I am not defending public education as superior, or even adequate. I am a homeschool advocate, but not a blind one.

[FaithManor]

I have seen it, particularly for girls in the ATI and VF traditions, and personally remediated female students who escpaed these traditions and were absolutely unemployable, functionally and numerically illiterate.

 

I think it s a good topic to discuss. Now I will say this, my local PS commits severe, practically criminal educational neglect on a fairly regular basis and manages to throw in violation of civil rights, emotional and mental abuse on top of it. So I don't think government intervention in my area is necessarily appropriate because the PS needs a serious behind whooping over it. Yet, that does not excuse homeschoolers hiding behind that freedom in order to raise their kids like feral cats!  But, it really begs a lot of questions one of which is if a parent sends their child to the PS and their neurotypical child graduates functionally illiterate, should these parents also be accused of educational neglect? Is sending them to the neighborhood school enough action on the part of the parent or should there be a higher standard? 

 

Beyond that, in order for any standard to be applied, the general public or the powers that be need to decide what constitutes educational neglect.

 

Probably I would not be a good person to sit on the committee for this. I have a lot higher standards than many would be comfortable with, and consider the GED level of achievement to be woefully inadequate. So a general diploma would be tougher to get which would probably make more relaxed homeschoolers nervous!

[RegularMom]

But... and I'm really not trying to dispute your experience, but I am genuinely wondering... is there really any systematic problem of abuse and neglect among homeschool parents who are not fundamentalist, Quiverfull style homeschoolers?

 

Well, I wouldn't call it "systematic", but yes, I do think that this problem exists in a wider spectrum of homeschoolers of varying religious backgrounds. I think the difference, though, lies in the beginning intent. The neglect I've seen among non-fundamentalists doesn't stem from a initial mindset of distrust of "Godless" material and the idea that girls don't need a complete college prep education. One common scenario I've seen happen is that once homeschooling becomes difficult in some way, the parents simply stop working on it. Or they just get busy with their own priorities, or there are other problems at home, and schooling takes a back seat. Maybe just temporarily at first, but then that back seat slips further and further back, and the kids just flounder. I've known moms who just leave their kids at home all day with some books to work on while she goes out and visits friends. One of the kids used to call our house and leave messages like "Hi... I'm lonely...." This went on for years. 

 

 

And, to be clear, I don't consider that year so and so didn't get hardly any math done and then decided to put their kids back in school or to finally catch up by having to reteach basic arithmetic or whatever as educational neglect. Or that family that hasn't done science or history in a couple of years because two new babies were born and it was all they could do to cover some phonics and a bit of math. Those are situations that aren't ideal, but they're not neglect... and I would assume they aren't to you either. 

 

Ah, well (and I know I'm gonna ruffle some feathers here, big time).... I actually see this as the beginning of a neglectful pattern. Too often, I find that the parents never really come back from this floundering. Often, after a few years of this, they put their kids in school or opt for a cyber, which ends the neglectful pattern. So, in the long run, I guess it would be hard to officially name it "neglect" unless the parents never return to their home education norm. 

 

I also don't think that unschooling family with the 8 yo who can barely read a board book is neglectful - at least not automatically. I think unschooling can become neglect when children are asking for help in learning and for access to resources and they're being denied that help and those resources. However, I know a good number of unschoolers. They can all read and do basic math and they're all still pretty young. I don't see this as a common problem.

 

I know many successful unschoolers. I actually think that successful unschooling parents work a lot harder than more traditional curriculum-using folks. I also know a great many more people who start out with all sorts of goals and plans and then when it gets hard, they stop working toward those goals and say: "we're switching to unschooling" and then just leave the kids to their own devices. Far too often, I get the feeling that unschooling is a mask neglectful homeschoolers hide behind, which does a grave disservice to the many successful dedicated unschooling families out there. 

 

 

I guess I just don't see it. And I feel like it minimalizes it to imply that a broad spectrum of people of all religions who homeschool are abusing or neglecting their kids as part of a pattern of behavior. It implies that there isn't a problem that's specific to that particular brand of fundamentalist, patriarchal Christian communities and it implies that homeschoolers in general are more likely to be abusers, which I doubt it what you meant to imply.

 

Oh no, I don't think that at all. I realize all of my experience and examples are anecdotal and suspect as a result, but I just don't think we can label this issue a Christian fundamentalist one and walk away. That being said, I do think that Christian fundamentalism has some ideas about education that encourage what I think of as "neglect", but like I said earlier, that isn't something that's particular to homeschooling.

 

The article itself does a pretty poor job exploring this problem, but at least it opens the door to discussion. 

 

Gotta run... cooking dinner... which is its own whole other issue now too. ;)

[Farrar]

 

Ah, well (and I know I'm gonna ruffle some feathers here, big time).... I actually see this as the beginning of a neglectful pattern. Too often, I find that the parents never really come back from this floundering. Often, after a few years of this, they put their kids in school or opt for a cyber, which ends the neglectful pattern. So, in the long run, I guess it would be hard to officially name it "neglect" unless the parents never return to their home education norm. 

 

I guess I have only seen the opposite - the family is coasting, doing very little and I think, gee, that's a little borderline. And, then, suddenly, voila, I hear about how they started a new curricula, got vision therapy, started some new co-op, whatever and are now doing, according the mom, so much better. Or, it goes on a couple of years, no one is satisfied, the kids are learning but not a ton, and then I hear they sent the kids to school.

 

I guess it also gets to what really is educational neglect. I know A LOT of families that I'll sort of homogenize into an imaginary family...

 

Family Jones has three kids. Mom Jones is overwhelmed and tired because Toddler Jones is making everyone crazy. Also someone, let's say, Middle Jones, has a medical condition, let's make it juvenile diabetes, which they've just found and they're trying to figure out. Life is just busy and hard. Most days, Mom Jones gets Older Jones and Middle Jones to do a little math and some reading. They're studying history, but they got stuck in Rome some time a year ago so they do a little, but not much. They do a nature center class, though it's not all year. They go to an art class at the community center when it's offered, which isn't all the time, but sometimes. One of the kids, let's say, Middle Jones, is really into something, let's say it's geography. Middle Jones draws maps and labels them and reads about geography and plays online geography games and likes to annoying quiz everyone else in the family about the lakes of African nations. Older Jones doesn't want to do anything but play Minecraft. But when pressed, Mom Jones admits he actually cooks a mean supper and surprisingly always seems to know random facts she can't figure out where he picked up. Some days, no school gets done and Mom Jones feels cruddy. Other days, they do a park day or a field trip or a one off class or sit on the sofa and read something aloud and get some lessons done. Mom Jones is pretty good at pausing to smell the roses with the kids - and sometimes to toss the petals under a microscope or identify what type they are.

 

Is it educational neglect...  or not?

 

I mean, some people would say, the kids aren't getting as much school time as their schooled peers. They can read and write and do a little math, and have specific interests but they're probably behind overall if we tested them and did some comparisons.

 

On the other hand, they're nice kids, they don't hate learning, Mom Jones answers their questions and they're all nice kids, well socialized, lots of friends. The kids sometimes take a leap forward with learning. They're basically doing okay.

 

To me, that's like a huge percentage of the families I know. It's not about "academic rigor" and the parents often feel like they've fallen down on the job. But the kids aren't terribly off and there are these moments that could never happen in school - occasional rabbit trails, learning at their own pace sometimes, being together as a family, happy kids who aren't overstressed.

 

Sometimes I see these sorts of kids and I'm like, ugh, you should be old enough to do this math problem!!! On the other hand, they're not neglected and the parents spend a lot of time with them constructing experiences and answering questions and fostering good character and so forth. And I think, meh, they're 8, the addition facts will come.

[maize]

I guess I have only seen the opposite - the family is coasting, doing very little and I think, gee, that's a little borderline. And, then, suddenly, voila, I hear about how they started a new curricula, got vision therapy, started some new co-op, whatever and are now doing, according the mom, so much better. Or, it goes on a couple of years, no one is satisfied, the kids are learning but not a ton, and then I hear they sent the kids to school.

 

I guess it also gets to what really is educational neglect. I know A LOT of families that I'll sort of homogenize into an imaginary family...

 

Family Jones has three kids. Mom Jones is overwhelmed and tired because Toddler Jones is making everyone crazy. Also someone, let's say, Middle Jones, has a medical condition, let's make it juvenile diabetes, which they've just found and they're trying to figure out. Life is just busy and hard. Most days, Mom Jones gets Older Jones and Middle Jones to do a little math and some reading. They're studying history, but they got stuck in Rome some time a year ago so they do a little, but not much. They do a nature center class, though it's not all year. They go to an art class at the community center when it's offered, which isn't all the time, but sometimes. One of the kids, let's say, Middle Jones, is really into something, let's say it's geography. Middle Jones draws maps and labels them and reads about geography and plays online geography games and likes to annoying quiz everyone else in the family about the lakes of African nations. Older Jones doesn't want to do anything but play Minecraft. But when pressed, Mom Jones admits he actually cooks a mean supper and surprisingly always seems to know random facts she can't figure out where he picked up. Some days, no school gets done and Mom Jones feels cruddy. Other days, they do a park day or a field trip or a one off class or sit on the sofa and read something aloud and get some lessons done. Mom Jones is pretty good at pausing to smell the roses with the kids - and sometimes to toss the petals under a microscope or identify what type they are.

 

Is it educational neglect... or not?

 

I mean, some people would say, the kids aren't getting as much school time as their schooled peers. They can read and write and do a little math, and have specific interests but they're probably behind overall if we tested them and did some comparisons.

 

On the other hand, they're nice kids, they don't hate learning, Mom Jones answers their questions and they're all nice kids, well socialized, lots of friends. The kids sometimes take a leap forward with learning. They're basically doing okay.

 

To me, that's like a huge percentage of the families I know. It's not about "academic rigor" and the parents often feel like they've fallen down on the job. But the kids aren't terribly off and there are these moments that could never happen in school - occasional rabbit trails, learning at their own pace sometimes, being together as a family, happy kids who aren't overstressed.

 

Sometimes I see these sorts of kids and I'm like, ugh, you should be old enough to do this math problem!!! On the other hand, they're not neglected and the parents spend a lot of time with them constructing experiences and answering questions and fostering good character and so forth. And I think, meh, they're 8, the addition facts will come.

That's a pretty good description of the way our homeschool functions at times. We have seasons of high energy and organization, and seasons of just getting by with minimal academics.

 

So far I'm pretty happy with my kids' progress socially, emotionally and academically. To be honest, there were whole swaths of time during my own growing up years when not much structured academic learning was happening; somehow things evened out in the end.

[RegularMom]

Yes, defining the terms is darn near impossible, I'd say. One person's neglect is another person's impromptu "unschooling" adventure. 

 

I know some families very much like "Family Jones". But the kids are a lot older than eight. What if the kids are 12 and 14? How does that change things? Do you still say: "ugh, you should know how to do this math problem... oh well, you all seem okay." At what age does it become problematic, if ever? 

 

Also, who would have the authority to make that determination, to even define the term educational neglect? Not me, that's for sure. 

 

What I've learned is that I approach the job of homeschooling Very Very Differently than the majority of people I know. I've learned to keep my mouth shut and tell everyone what they want to hear: "you're doing a good job mama." No matter what is actually happening. I no longer even enjoy answering questions about curricula. People don't want to hear what I'm doing. They only want to hear that what they're doing is good enough. Whether it is or not.

 

The thing is: I'm responsible for the education of my own kids and my own kids alone. It's considered rude to stick my nose in elsewhere, so I don't. 

 

[Audrey]

Notes:

1. I am not a fan of conservative, fundamentalist, Quiverful Christianity.
2. I do believe educational neglect exists in alarming numbers in the homeschooling community
3. I believe the homeschooling community denies the above and is not adequately self reflective or self regulating

That said, what the author of that post writes about is a sub-group (extreme, patriarchal Christians ) of a sub group (conservative homeschooling Christians) of a sub group (homeschoolers).

 

I think that the numbers, using logic, are small. That they exist at all IS alarming, but "homeschoolers" as a group are not represented by the content of that article. In my years of being in education (homeschool, followed by being a professional in a school that was started by the homeschooling population), I have seen very few in person families that are THAT extreme.

 

 

Understood, and agreed.

 

But... (you knew that was coming, eh? ;)  )  ... families like the ones in the article, however small their numbers, do impact legitimate homeschoolers because THOSE are the families at which the homeschooling detractors will point and say "homeschoolers are all bad like THAT."

 

It impacts my real homeschooling life because I still hear about that ONE family years before I ever moved here who were wacko zealots who used homeschooling to keep their kids out of school and to make sure the oldest ones babysat the little ones so the parents could go "spread the word."  So, even before anyone knows me, they associate me with that ilk.  It happens all the time in the news that some extremist type goes on a violent spree and it is mentioned that they were homeschooled.  And, we, here, talk about it and hope that the rest of the world doesn't look at us -- the normal homeschoolers -- and think we are like that.

 

But there are many people who DO think we are all like that.  And, it's the type like in the article that do that damage to us.

 

So, in that regard, I think the article is a worthwhile point of discussion, even if some people who may identify with the religious aspect of it are offended.  In fact, I think that those people should be the most keen to discuss this disaster amongst their ranks, so that they can fight from the inside.

[Farrar]

Yes, defining the terms is darn near impossible, I'd say. One person's neglect is another person's impromptu "unschooling" adventure. 

 

I know some families very much like "Family Jones". But the kids are a lot older than eight. What if the kids are 12 and 14? How does that change things? Do you still say: "ugh, you should know how to do this math problem... oh well, you all seem okay." At what age does it become problematic, if ever? 

 

Also, who would have the authority to make that determination, to even define the term educational neglect? Not me, that's for sure. 

 

What I've learned is that I approach the job of homeschooling Very Very Differently than the majority of people I know. I've learned to keep my mouth shut and tell everyone what they want to hear: "you're doing a good job mama." No matter what is actually happening. I no longer even enjoy answering questions about curricula. People don't want to hear what I'm doing. They only want to hear that what they're doing is good enough. Whether it is or not.

 

The thing is: I'm responsible for the education of my own kids and my own kids alone. It's considered rude to stick my nose in elsewhere, so I don't. 

 

I know families where it's 11 and 12 yos. We don't know many kids older than that just because my boys are younger. Honestly, it doesn't really change the equation for me much though. I mean, yes, it's still sad if I ask a 12 yo a basic multiplication problem and they get stuck, but I don't know any kids that age who haven't been taught to multiply at all. So, again, it's this stuff that's often on the line, right? Where it's like, okay, this child has been taught something, but is it enough?

 

I don't think we, ourselves, need to be the ones deciding. I don't stick my nose in with any of the various Family Joneses that I know unless they ask for help or suggestions. I guess it's more that the government, if they're alerted, should have some sort of a standard. And then, for us to ask ourselves where is our line, when would we notify the authorities. And what obligation do we have as fellow homeschoolers to say something - either to the family or to the authorities?

 

I have to say... I have never in my experience as a homeschooler met a family I would even consider reporting. There was a family who had done very little with homeschooling, perhaps to the point that they needed to be reported, when I was teaching, but then they made the decision to send the child to school, which was how I came to know them. And the reasons little had been done were pretty massive family and medical problems that made it hard not to have sympathy for them all.

[Joanne]

I still want to know about the mysterious other subgroups :)

Yea, no. It is from my experience and observation and I am not willing to get sidetracked into that discussion. My point was that I have seen educational neglect from more than homeschoolers of the type in the OP

[stripe]

But... and I'm really not trying to dispute your experience, but I am genuinely wondering... is there really any systematic problem of abuse and neglect among homeschool parents who are not fundamentalist, Quiverfull style homeschoolers?

The NY Times had an article in 2008 about Muslim homeschoolers, including lumping in Adam Gadahn, who was raised an evangelical Christian; one part was about a community in Lodi who undereducated their girls and brought them home to do housework/cooking etc. It was an inflammatory article, but it was claiming a different community was neglecting education under the guise of homeschool.

 

One response here, which includes comments by a mother profiled in the story (from SF, not Lodi)

http://muslimmatters.org/2008/04/04/homeschooling-on-ny-timess-stereotyping/

[stripe]

Then there's the unschoolers.

 

Some people find them to fit the neglectful definition. For example http://www.examiner.com/article/some-may-call-it-unschooling-i-call-it-educational-neglect She seems concerned about those who call their kids "indigo children."

[umsami]

So, I read the article…and I think she tried to point out good and bad examples, but obviously is more concerned with those who are neglecting their kids.  I really think that the solution is for homeschoolers to advocate for accountability….but for them to do the advocating so they have more stake in how it happens.  I also think the point about kids with SNs not receiving all the help/resources available is a good one.

 

I'm not sure why one couldn't take a reading test at say 9….and if the child does not have basic literacy by then, it's a sign that perhaps s/he is paired with a reading tutor, but homeschooling continues.

 

At 13…perhaps there's a basic math test going through pre-algebra.

 

Etc.

[Mrs. Tharp]

Maybe the question with regards to standards of neglect can be reframed as, "If this child was in public school and had this level of knowledge, would I consider the school neglectful?" How much more flexible should the standards be for homeschooling? In public school, a child who was not reading by age 8 would qualify for special education. So would kids who could barely multiply at age 12. Whether or not they were nice or socialized or of good moral character would not absolve the public schools of the responsibility of educating them to state standards. So how/when/ why should homeschools be absolved of that same responsibility? Should state standards be applicable to hsers or not? If not, then each state needs to come up with its own definition of neglect as it pertains to hsing if they want to monitor it.

 

Obviously I am in favor of increased accountability and of obtaining hard data on homeschoolers. :D

 

 

[RegularMom]

I don't think we, ourselves, need to be the ones deciding. I don't stick my nose in with any of the various Family Joneses that I know unless they ask for help or suggestions. I guess it's more that the government, if they're alerted, should have some sort of a standard. And then, for us to ask ourselves where is our line, when would we notify the authorities. And what obligation do we have as fellow homeschoolers to say something - either to the family or to the authorities?

 

 

And here's where things become impossible, I think. Because for most homeschoolers, government standards are anathema. And without standards, there's no way to draw a line. 

 

In a similar vein, there are lots of public school kids who fall through the cracks for myriad reasons, so to speak, and graduate as functionally illiterate individuals. Sometimes we watch documentaries about them and shake our heads and talk about educational reform. But, imo, the fact that the same sort of thing is happening in homeschooling is something that we too often sweep under the rug. 

[Aelwydd]

I'm in favor of standards and accountability for homeschooling. But, oversight should be performed by a state home schooling board, that is run by advocates, and also are themselves expert in some measurable way. Sort of like how in Texas, homebirth midwives answer to the Midwifery board--NOT the state medical board.

 

Public schools answer to their respective boards of education, but this doesn't qualify them to police home schooling, which is frequently outside school officials' framework. And frankly, in Texas at least, they do a poor job of keeping their own house in order.

 

However, that does not preclude the establishment of a professional board of home schooling educators and advocates. Yes, it's still not perfect, but frankly, there should be some objective standards. JMO.

[Aelwydd]

But but but if mom provides a computer does it matter if she is drunk every day by 10am? /sarcasm. I agree with you. I have met families who do not educate and who think that they can ignore their children and at 18 the children will magically be ready for life and college.

Yeah, I guess it boils down to what you define as an adequate education. For some people, it means if their 13 yo is able to read a public restroom sign, recognize if they are being shorted a piece in their 8 piece chicken bucket, and know roughly what year it is, then that's just fine, and nobody daren't call that educational negligence.

 

I actually think there are degrees of severity between "adequate" and "neglect." One of them I just call educational laziness.

[redsquirrel]

So, I read the article…and I think she tried to point out good and bad examples, but obviously is more concerned with those who are neglecting their kids.  I really think that the solution is for homeschoolers to advocate for accountability….but for them to do the advocating so they have more stake in how it happens.  I also think the point about kids with SNs not receiving all the help/resources available is a good one.

 

I'm not sure why one couldn't take a reading test at say 9….and if the child does not have basic literacy by then, it's a sign that perhaps s/he is paired with a reading tutor, but homeschooling continues.

 

At 13…perhaps there's a basic math test going through pre-algebra.

 

Etc.

 

It just depends on the state. I live in NY and we have mandatory testing for homeschoolers. Starting in 4th grade through 8th grade we must test every other year and then 9-12th grade every year. Homeschoolers also have the option of sitting for certain Regents exams if they choose.

 

I personally choose to test my kids every year, once I realized my oldest child had become frightened of the idea of a test. NY takes the CAT and the PASS, neither is exactly difficult or that useful. But at least they know how to take a standardized test now.

 

Does that solve everything? No because I know for a fact that there are many homeschooling families who just never register with the state to begin with. I didn't. I never 'got legal' until my oldest was a third grader. FWIW, the district said not a word about it, other than to welcome me. I guess they figured better late than never. But it is fairly rural around here and it would be super easy for fly under the radar. I have to assume that lots of families I know around here have not ever sent in their paperwork. Some of the surrounding counties ... no one would ever see you, much less know you homeschooled.

 

 

[Aelwydd]

So, unschoolers :)

 

Or all of us ? No. Then we wouldn't be a subgroup.

 

I think if you are going to make statements like that, it would be good to support them with some detail. I genuinely would like to know if there are some groups of home schoolers with higher abuse rates than others. That's good info to have, if it's true.

 

If it's only from one person's observation, then...

 

Sadie, I get what you're saying, but you're not in Texas, are you? Where there are absolutely zero accountability rules here? Don't you live in a country that at least affirms some ideal of a standard?Joanne is right, there exists here a breed of home schoolers who seem to have actual little use for anything resembling even a very basic core of competencies.

[Aelwydd]

Texas is where Joanne and both reside, so it is relevant to any discussion of our respective experiences. I presume her particular observations of certain groups are likely derived from her professional work in therapy, among other things. But, I'd rather not speak for her. Suffice it say, where each of us lives affects local educational culture, and there will necessarily be variances from place to place, province to province, and country to country.

[Aelwydd]

Sadie, perhaps you might ask her in private chat. She did say she did not want to divert the discussion. FWIW, I read her statement as one based on her own observations. Anecdotal evidence is certainly weaker than objective, randomized or even case studies, but it is still a form of data. You seem very intent on making her provide her proof, but at the end of the day, no one here is posting references to double blind, prospective, randomized studies. Pretty much because the total body of such evidence put together is probably only slightly thicker than the Jack Chick Guide to Tolerance tract.

 

Oddly enough, it seems on a national scale, home schoolers as a whole, have frequently exhibited an aversion to things like data collection, scientific observation, and the the critical analysis that comes with these things.

 

I have considered the fact there are relatively few home schoolers willing to participate in studies to be a fine point of irony, especially given how often I hear how it's only a fringe few who turn out scientific and mathematical illiterates.

[Χά�ων]

I know families where it's 11 and 12 yos. We don't know many kids older than that just because my boys are younger. Honestly, it doesn't really change the equation for me much though. I mean, yes, it's still sad if I ask a 12 yo a basic multiplication problem and they get stuck, but I don't know any kids that age who haven't been taught to multiply at all. So, again, it's this stuff that's often on the line, right? Where it's like, okay, this child has been taught something, but is it enough?

 

I don't think we, ourselves, need to be the ones deciding. I don't stick my nose in with any of the various Family Joneses that I know unless they ask for help or suggestions. I guess it's more that the government, if they're alerted, should have some sort of a standard. And then, for us to ask ourselves where is our line, when would we notify the authorities. And what obligation do we have as fellow homeschoolers to say something - either to the family or to the authorities?

 

I have to say... I have never in my experience as a homeschooler met a family I would even consider reporting. There was a family who had done very little with homeschooling, perhaps to the point that they needed to be reported, when I was teaching, but then they made the decision to send the child to school, which was how I came to know them. And the reasons little had been done were pretty massive family and medical problems that made it hard not to have sympathy for them all.

 

Re the bolded, I would assume a processing disorder if they are getting stuck. My son struggles with his multiplication facts but is working on prealgebra. I was advised by the LD specialist I am working on to keep working on them but not to allow it to hinder his progress. He is 2E. 

[creekland]

But... and I'm really not trying to dispute your experience, but I am genuinely wondering... is there really any systematic problem of abuse and neglect among homeschool parents who are not fundamentalist, Quiverfull style homeschoolers? 

 

Absolutely!  And IMO, what they do is WORSE for their kids.

 

Who are these subgroups and how do you know they have a higher percentage of neglect ?

 

 

Generally the offspring of druggies/alcoholics and chronic (vs necessary evil) welfare/unemployment/occasional low wage job parents.  I'm not sure what you want to name this subgroup.  They are too lazy (or high/hung over/angry at the "establishment") to get their kids to school, so they "homeschool."  Except they don't.  If lucky, they'll buy their offspring workbooks at Wally World and toss them at them while letting the youngsters run free (or using them as soon as they are able to support their habit).  If caught and enrolled (after court deals), then their kids tend to be the truant ones - still can't get them up and on the bus, after all.  They have more court deals.  

 

I could go on and on.

 

And this in no way implies that ALL parents in this subgroup are this way as some prefer that their offspring go to school and get out of their hair, but they still don't support them with homework or anything else.  But the percentage of neglect/abuse is certainly higher in this group than in any other IMO.

 

I feel sorry for the offspring (esp girls) in some of the strict religious groups and know I'd have never survived having been born into one of their families (even though I am Christian).  But I feel sorrier for those born in the cycle written above.  Those we see who end up at school (by high school, many do - if they aren't already in detention facility schools) rarely break the cycle, certainly aren't educated, and definitely don't attend church on Sundays.  

[Χά�ων]

That's a pretty good description of the way our homeschool functions at times. We have seasons of high energy and organization, and seasons of just getting by with minimal academics.

 

So far I'm pretty happy with my kids' progress socially, emotionally and academically. To be honest, there were whole swaths of time during my own growing up years when not much structured academic learning was happening; somehow things evened out in the end.

That has become my reality as well. 

 

Academics takes a back seat to life or death situations. 

[redsquirrel]

Absolutely!  And IMO, what they do is WORSE for their kids.

 

 

Generally the offspring of druggies/alcoholics and chronic (vs necessary evil) welfare/unemployment/occasional low wage job parents.  I'm not sure what you want to name this subgroup.  They are too lazy (or high/hung over/angry at the "establishment") to get their kids to school, so they "homeschool."  Except they don't.  If lucky, they'll buy their offspring workbooks at Wally World and toss them at them while letting the youngsters run free (or using them as soon as they are able to support their habit).  If caught and enrolled (after court deals), then their kids tend to be the truant ones - still can't get them up and on the bus, after all.  They have more court deals.  

 

I could go on and on.

 

And this in no way implies that ALL parents in this subgroup are this way as some prefer that their offspring go to school and get out of their hair, but they still don't support them with homework or anything else.  But the percentage of neglect/abuse is certainly higher in this group than in any other IMO.

 

I feel sorry for the offspring (esp girls) in some of the strict religious groups and know I'd have never survived having been born into one of their families (even though I am Christian).  But I feel sorrier for those born in the cycle written above.  Those we see who end up at school (by high school, many do - if they aren't already in detention facility schools) rarely break the cycle, certainly aren't educated, and definitely don't attend church on Sundays.  

 

Again, it depends on your state. I live in NY, a 'high reg' state. I also worked in human services, and the type of people you are describing are NOT homeschooling. Are they sending their kids to school? Maybe not, but often people who are living in those circumstances have lots of service providers in their lives and it is difficult for them to fly under the radar. And when kids are very young it is easier for users to get them to school some of the time. School is free day care after all. Plus there is also free breakfast and lunch, etc.

 

When the kids get older and more able to fend for themselves yes, lots of people stop working so hard to get their kids to school. But, if you live in a 'high reg' state, then you are not hiding under the guise of homeschooling. There is the yearly plan, the four quarterly reports,  the end of year testing or a yearly review done by the parent or a certified teacher. It's not something you can fudge. It is hardly onerous, but your kid can't just disappear into the nether to be forgotten by the system. So, are some parents flat out allowing their kids to be tuant? Yep, they sure are. But at least in this state, they don't get mixed in with the homeschoolers.  Do I know some legal homeschoolers who I think aren't doing a great job with academics? Yep, I do. But they have some accountability. I have known families who told me their homeschool was on 'academic probation' by the state. If their kids test scores didn't come up they would no longer be able to homeschool and they would have to show they had made alternative arrangements for their kids. Honestly, those tests are so easy, I didn't think it would be possible to score poorly, but I guess not. 

[poppy]

Absolutely!  And IMO, what they do is WORSE for their kids.

 

 

Generally the offspring of druggies/alcoholics and chronic (vs necessary evil) welfare/unemployment/occasional low wage job parents.  I'm not sure what you want to name this subgroup.  They are too lazy (or high/hung over/angry at the "establishment") to get their kids to school, so they "homeschool."  Except they don't.  If lucky, they'll buy their offspring workbooks at Wally World and toss them at them while letting the youngsters run free (or using them as soon as they are able to support their habit).  If caught and enrolled (after court deals), then their kids tend to be the truant ones - still can't get them up and on the bus, after all.  They have more court deals.  

 

I could go on and on.

 

And this in no way implies that ALL parents in this subgroup are this way as some prefer that their offspring go to school and get out of their hair, but they still don't support them with homework or anything else.  But the percentage of neglect/abuse is certainly higher in this group than in any other IMO.

 

I feel sorry for the offspring (esp girls) in some of the strict religious groups and know I'd have never survived having been born into one of their families (even though I am Christian).  But I feel sorrier for those born in the cycle written above.  Those we see who end up at school (by high school, many do - if they aren't already in detention facility schools) rarely break the cycle, certainly aren't educated, and definitely don't attend church on Sundays.  

 

Not sure how true this is- the poorest parents here send kids to school for the free meals and free babysitting.

But if it's true, I honestly don't' think it's worse than the emotional manipulation and abuse.

[Farrar]

I also have only heard of one case here where someone with the kind of issues Creekland described was "homeschooling." I heard about her because her children were killed because the abuse and problems went way beyond and "homeschool" was a cover. It's soooo easy to send your kids to school in a city. They all walk. It's free, easy daycare. I've never heard of people homeschooling like that here.

 

If that's common anywhere, that makes me really sad. I also find it hard to believe... But again, this is why some data is needed.

[Joanne]

So, unschoolers :)

 

Or all of us ? No. Then we wouldn't be a subgroup.

 

I think if you are going to make statements like that, it would be good to support them with some detail. I genuinely would like to know if there are some groups of home schoolers with higher abuse rates than others. That's good info to have, if it's true.

 

If it's only from one person's observation, then...

 

 

 

Joanne said "There are OTHER subgroups with higher percentage of abuse." All I'd like to know is what demographic these other subgroups are, and how Joanne knows they have a higher percentage of abuse.

 

I'm not questioning that there is neglect or abuse. Joanne made a startling claim and won't back it up with further info. Therefore, there's nothing for me to believe or not believe.

 

No need to drag Texas into it :)

 

 

Yes, and if you are going to say that group X has a higher percentage of abuse ( this percentage obtained how ?) you need to have some sort of facts to back it up.

 

People don't get to play the "I'm a professional so what I say is true" card. If there is a subgroup of home schoolers who abuse their children at a higher percentage than other groups of home schoolers, and this is a fact, not say-so...then say so. If it's just a personal observation and the assertion of 'higher rates of abuse' are not documented or substantiated, then make that clear.

 

And for the record, I'm a pro-government, pro homeschool oversight atheist...so no exactly a great defender of the group under discussion. Just wanting to know which subgroup of homeschoolers is alleged to abuse their children at a higher percentage than others...it's not tricky.

 

 

Actually, Sadie, I did not say that other subgroups under the homeschooling umbrella have a higher percentage of abuse, although I did respond to a quote that did use the word abuse. I made it clear I have been talking about neglect, particularly educational. I would appreciate if you'd stop claiming that I said there is more abuse in those subgroups.

 

And, frankly, I *can* use the professional card. I worked my a** off for it, earning a Master's degree in a related field and working 3 jobs related to education and families. Before that, I taught parenting for 15 years to 2 groups: Christians emerging from a punitive parenting paradigm and wanting to change that, and secular parents wanting to learn more about positive discipline. My full time job currently is in a small, secular school - we don't typically get the type of homeschoolers referenced in the OP. Having taught at a local Community College, I had a total of 6 classes of 26 students each, from mostly public schools with a sprinkle of private and one homeschooler. Not to mention the students I taught in my home when I was a single parent homeschooler. So, yea, I *do* think my exposure to a representative variety of homeschoolers (and public schoolers) is more than the average homeschooling parent.

 

And, no, I don't need to answer your question to address the topics presented by the OP. My point is found in my original post that the numbers represented by the type in the OP are very small, but that educational neglect is present in the homeschooling community and still goes largely unacknowledged. I have been on this board for 15 years, and I remember the first 10, several posters would mention it. They are mostly not here anymore, but they were regular, vetted, posters. They each had a range of experience with the homeschooling community at large and spoke of concerning, sometimes alarming, cases of educational fail and neglect in the homeschooling community. I argued with them (as did most people on the board.) I really, really, really wanted to believe that homeschooling did not have that high a percentage of reason for concern. When I began working professionally IN that community, what I observed followed exactly what those posters described and had written about.

 

And, for the record, the "Homeschool Watch List" is absurd and alarming. And I don't believe that oversight should come from the public system.