Article critical of homeschooling by Christian fundamentalists

[Lang Syne Boardie]

It depends on what you find fulfilling. Way too many my dh's colleagues are not living fulfilling lives, many our workaholics with broken marriages and heaps of debt. From our experience, the brothers and sisters in our fellowhip are leading more fulfilling and successful lives than my dh's colleagues.

What does that mean, "the brothers and sisters in your fellowship?" A church? Are there no members of your church who are well-educated yet successful and fulfilled in spite of that tremendous handicap?

 

I think this is a false dichotomy:

 

Educated doctor == workaholic, divorced, in debt.

Less-educated church member == fulfilled and successful life.

 

Obviously, people can be doctors and humanitarians and Christians (or other religion) all at the same time. Equally obviously, people can be poorly educated and miserable. But we all see what we want to see.

[amy g.]

Someone is taking, "When ignorance is bliss..." a little too literally.

[Seasider]

Reading this thread led me to thinking about other threads and I wanted to pull up and share a thread from the past:

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/452223-any-veterans-here-who-have-hs-their-children-successfully/?p=4657801

I love DianeW88's post - I have it printed out and posted on my fridge. :) I think she was saying what FaithManor, Joanne, and others have been saying - as homeschoolers, we need to encourage each other to do what we need to do to get the teaching done. "Neglect" is a harsh word and I don't think I'd call it that but when homeschooling mamas are struggling, we don't do them any favours by telling them that it's OK because they can make it up in a few years. For some kids - yes, they may be able to do 3 years of math in a few months. Most can't. It's not always better because it's home. As a previous poster stated, I know I'll be ruffling feathers by saying all of this and I'm sorry for that. I do think "homeschool fails" are homeschooling's dirty little secret (I seem to remember reading that in another thread from about the same time period as the last one but I can't find it) and it's not just spectacular fails that we would all, without hesitation, call neglect or abuse. It's the non-spectacular ones where we start out with the best of intentions and then it just... gets away from us. We need to support each other in those times but it isn't going to help anyone when we trot out the mantra, "It's OK. Whatever you do, it's better than they'd get at public school.". That just isn't always true. We need to encourage the struggling mamas to get back on track and if they are in a situation where it just isn't possible for the moment that there's no shame in putting the kids in public or private school until things get sorted out. Homeschooling is hard, exhausting, and time consuming. If we choose to do it all the way through, we ARE it, educationally, for our kids. There is no one else to pick up the slack.

 

And now, to follow DianeW88's advice, I need to get off the Internet and do some marking from this week. :)

Bravo. Excellent post.

[Orthodox6]

Rather a wild turn to the original conversation!

 

Our Eastern Orthodox Christian faith in God is the center, the fulcrum, the engine , the lifeblood for our family and all of our major decisions. We educate our children to the best and the fullest of our ability as parents because our children will work out for themselves, ideally with the guidance and blessings of God, what they will do in life. It would be wrong, within our framework, to slam doors for our children, or to discourage them from any path so long as that path does not lead to sin. Let it be understood clearly, though, that each child possesses the free will placed in him at conception by God Himself. Woe betide me if I deny a child the innate right to exercise his free will. Each person on earth is responsible for his choices. My parents cannot protect me forever, or forever tell me what to do. My four children are on four different paths, including some that, in my navel-gazing youth, I might have looked down my nose at. I celebrate with joy my wonderful children!

 

Others will have their own life philosophies. This is right and good. I just suddenly felt compelled to stand up for allowing opportunities to happen.

 

Blast of philosophy now over. My prayers for all of you and your lives.

[Crimson Wife]

I have said it before on other threads, but I think the solution is not increased regulation of homeschoolers but rather increased support for adults who received an inadequate K-12 education. Doesn't matter whether that education was in a lousy public, private, or home school.

 

Is it terrible that there are abusive and neglectful parents out there who homeschool (or at least claim to)? Absolutely. But causing the rest of us to have to jump through a bunch of hoops that the "bad apples" will probably just ignore is not the way to fix the problem.

[displace]

I can't link now, but the Wwwphysiciansfoundation.org usually posts surveys of physicians. IIRC, ~30% of doctors say they would have chosen another career, and another ~30% would advise friends/family not to go into the field. I apologize it's been a while since I've seen or read it but if you like to follow rabbit holes you could research it (and please correct me if I'm wrong).

[justamouse]

Here's Diane's post from that thread. 
 

This is my 18th year of homeschooling. I have graduated 2 of 3, both of whom are attending college on scholarships. In a nutshell: Work hard. Taking days off when you should be doing schooling gets you behind. Expect more from yourself. Expect more from your kids. The baby ISN'T the lesson...your older kids should not be taking time off because you're too tired from having small children. That is doing your children a disservice and it will come back and bite you. "No matter what I'm doing, it's better than what the kids in PS are doing" is NOT true. Don't let your kids get too far behind. You can't make up grades 5-9 in one year. Teach writing. Teach advanced math. Teach lab science. Get off the internet and educate your children. You are IT as far as their schooling goes. No one is going to pick up your slack. When you homeschool, you have taken on the responsibility of an entire school system to make sure your children are skilled and ready to live independently. You don't have the luxury of being lazy about it. Your children's future success and happiness depend on what you do today and tomorrow, and tomorrow after that. So do it. No excuses. It is worth every minute that you will put into it. The labor is intensive, but the rewards are incredible! I would do it all over again in a heartbeat. It has been an amazing journey, and seeing my oldest children now getting straight A's in college and thanking me for being brave enough to do what hardly anyone else was doing in 1993 humbles me and fills me with gratitude for the gift of homeschooling in my life.

 

[at the beach]

I have a slightly unusual perspective to offer. I grew up in a disfunctional, secular home but as adult my husband and I joined a group of conservative, fringe anabaptists (I don't take the term fundementalist but I'd probably get lumped in there).

 

When I was growing up my mother pulled me out of school for most of a year due to bullying. We barely got through the distance-ed curriculum that the province (BC, CA) sent to us. My mother later pulled my much younger brother out for a year because he was having "too many conflicts" with the administration. Really he was just a mouthy brat and my parents couldn't control him. They really accomplished nothing that year and eventually the provincial authorities (Manitoba, CA) caused too much trouble and he was sent back to school. About a year later he dropped out.

 

When I was a teenager I knew one family that "homeschooled" after the mother died and the father spiralled into depression. The children were completely ferral. A friend of mine tried to report them (she was a teenager at the time) but was brushed off and told that nothing could be done because they were "registered".

 

I met one family through a homeschool play group that was homeschooling because the mother didn't think that she should ever tell her children what to do nor did she want others to do so. Basically, she didn't believe in authority over children. I witnessed her six year cuss her out without any reprucussions. I can only imagine how much education was done!

 

Jump forward to where I am now...

 

We're now "quiverful", "conservative", "fundementalist" "anabaptists". I'm not gearing my children for college (even though my dh is a medical doctor); I hope that my daughters never work outside the home; I'd be terribly sad if my children left our faith. I believe that a lot secular classics, like Shakespeare, are drivel. These stem from our sincere beliefs about separation from the world, a worldview that is diametrically opposed to a secular worldview and what we believe to be a woman's role. Most of the people that we would fellowship with would believe about the same way as us in these areas.

 

Does framing our children's education around our religious beliefs constitute educational neglect? I believe my primary goal as a parent is to pass on my faith to my children. The goals that I have for my children's education are based around this. My choices are intentional and I really don't want the state (or in our case, the province) to impose their worldview on us.

 

I guess this comes down to a question about just how important education really is. I personally value my children's education. I want them to be aware of the world around them and to not be easily deceived. I want them to be able to read and write well and to be able to frame a good argument. I want them to be able to teach themselves if they feel like what I've given them is inadequate. I want my daughters to be employable if they have to find work outside of the home. Many people that I'm in fellowship with though do not place as much attention on their children's education. Sometimes I can feel a little self-righteous about how we're doing a better job than they are but then I think about it and quesion just how important education really is. Many of those in our fellowship can't handle reading higher level writing, some can't read music when we sing, some struggle to understand complex arguments, one didn't know that W Viginia was a state (he's American), several didn't know where BC was and when they did a few didn't relise that it was in the same time zone as WA and OR (more Americans). They're all employed. They love their families, they're not stupid or ignorant. For the record, all these brothers and sisters joined our group from typical American upbringings. Are my dh and I more valuable members of our fellowhship because we're more educated? I really don't think so. Education isn't what makes a good person. It's simply a tool that helps people accomplish their greater goals, either good or evil ones. It can help accomplish employability but we all know that there are highly educated, unemployable people out there as well. Should parents be held accountable to provide this tool for their children? I suppose to some extent but I think a bare minimum is about as far as the state should go. Education is just not that important that it's worth stepping on people's liberty or freedom to pass on their worldview/religion to their children.

 

Editted to add: Please notice that I did say that I plan to educate my daughters. I just hope that they never need to work outside of the home.

I appreciate you sharing your perspective. I may not feel the same way you do, but I support your right to practice your religion and raise your children in freedom, obviously within the parameters of the law. As I said in another post in this thread, in Wisconsin vs Yoder, the state's interest in compulsory education beyond a certain point did not outweigh the rights of the Amish to raise their children with their worldview and religion. When we start infringing on the rights of minority groups because we don't like their perspective, we risk the rights of everyone. JMO. 

[FaithManor]

Rather a wild turn to the original conversation!

 

Our Eastern Orthodox Christian faith in God is the center, the fulcrum, the engine , the lifeblood for our family and all of our major decisions. We educate our children to the best and the fullest of our ability as parents because our children will work out for themselves, ideally with the guidance and blessings of God, what they will do in life. It would be wrong, within our framework, to slam doors for our children, or to discourage them from any path so long as that path does not lead to sin. Let it be understood clearly, though, that each child possesses the free will placed in him at conception by God Himself. Woe betide me if I deny a child the innate right to exercise his free will. Each person on earth is responsible for his choices. My parents cannot protect me forever, or forever tell me what to do. My four children are on four different paths, including some that, in my navel-gazing youth, I might have looked down my nose at. I celebrate with joy my wonderful children!

 

Others will have their own life philosophies. This is right and good. I just suddenly felt compelled to stand up for allowing opportunities to happen.

 

Blast of philosophy now over. My prayers for all of you and your lives.

Beautiful!

[justamouse]

I have said it before on other threads, but I think the solution is not increased regulation of homeschoolers but rather increased support for adults who received an inadequate K-12 education. Doesn't matter whether that education was in a lousy public, private, or home school.

 

 

I think you are right. The scary part about that now, though are the sheer numbers of people who have received an inadequate education at this point. 

[rose]

What does that mean, "the brothers and sisters in your fellowship?" A church? Are there no members of your church who are well-educated yet successful and fulfilled in spite of that tremendous handicap?

Yes I was talking about our church.

I think this is a false dichotomy:

 

Educated doctor == workaholic, divorced, in debt.

Less-educated church member == fulfilled and successful life.

 

Obviously, people can be doctors and humanitarians and Christians (or other religion) all at the same time. Equally obviously, people can be poorly educated and miserable. But we all see what we want to see.

You're right. I didn't mean to imply that doctor's couldn't live fulfilling lives or that less educated church members always do. It's just been our experience that my dh's colleague are mostly unhappy and unfulfilled. There are some exceptions though. I was trying to point out that education doesn't bring about fulfillment or success in and of itself and was therefore not a path we feel compelled to encourage our children to go down.

[justamouse]

I can't link now, but the Wwwphysiciansfoundation.org usually posts surveys of physicians. IIRC, ~30% of doctors say they would have chosen another career, and another ~30% would advise friends/family not to go into the field. I apologize it's been a while since I've seen or read it but if you like to follow rabbit holes you could research it (and please correct me if I'm wrong).

Being a Dr may totally suck right now, I get that. My own GPs tell others not to go into medicine for the same reasons. However, I sure do appreciate them when I had to take my kids in, or when my disk blew. 

 

Despite the difficulties Drs face right now, the difficulties humanity faces without them is far worse. I would really be terrified if every Dr decided to go follow their bliss and leave the hospitals empty. 

[Dicentra]

Here's Diane's post from that thread. 

 

 

Thank you, justamouse. :)  I haven't yet figured out how to quote a single post from another thread so I linked the thread instead.  Someday I'll figure it out. ;)

[Dicentra]

Here's the other thread I was thinking of! :)

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/436444-when-is-behind-really-behind/?p=4442640

DianeW88 is going to think that I'm cyberstalking her by quoting all of these old posts of hers!  Eek! :)  I just really, really like what she has to say.  Here's a bit from her post:

 

"You bet, I'm happy to explain more. But I do want to preface this post by saying that I am NOT in any way referring to anyone in this thread or on this board or passing judgement on the homeschooling methods of anyone on this board. I don't know anybody here well enough to know how you homeschool or how that looks in your home. This post is based on personal experience I've had with people IRL. And since I've been homeschooling since the Stone Age :lol:, I've been lucky enough to see children who've "grown up" homeschooling and are now adults.

 

So, yes, you're right, I do think homeschooling failure is a "dirty little secret". I also say "HA" to all the people who repeat the mantra of "just keeping your kids at home means you're doing a better job", "reading aloud all day is good enough", "the baby IS the lesson", "just let them explore their own interests and they'll learn much more than they would in PS". Baloney. It's a lie, and I'm sorry that so many young homeschooling moms have bought into it.

 

The homeschoolers I've come across who were raised that way are now all adults or in their high school years. Most are struggling. A few are not, because they are exceptionally intelligent (far more than average) and have excelled IN SPITE of educational neglect, not because of it. "

by DianeW88

[FaithManor]

Oh, I just wanted to clarify that the Michigan Homeschool Statute does not allow for a religious exemption on subject material, only to teacher licensing. Technically, it is the only way in which a non-licensed individual can legally homeschool.  Technically, homeschooling for academic reasons while not holding a teaching license is illegal. People do it anyway. I don't homeschool specifically for religious reasons and since my church and faith takes no official stand on academics nor teacher licensing laws or state regulations, I'd be pretty hard pressed to make much of a legal case in that regard. Michigan is a non registering, non reporting state so everyone gets away with it. From a purely legalese standpoint, it is a highly restrictive state. Most other states allow homeschooling for non-religious purposes by non-licensed individuals as a matter of parental/constitutional right or if not that way, with other regulations in place such as parent must hold a high school diploma or one parent must possess some college or a degree or an umbrella school must be used or whatever. So, because there is something to file, something to adhere to in the eyes of the school district, those states appear more restrictive. It isn't as easy to homeschool without oversight. But, IF one were really hard pressed by authorities to justify your homeschooling in Michigan and you were not part of a religious sect that specifically takes issue with state regulations on education or teacher licensing, then technically you could be forced to put your child in school. There are no "for academic, emotional, mental, medical, health" whatever exemptions. At this time, the state has just personally not really cared enough to bother enforcing anything. It probably helps that in Lansing there is a fair amount of support from politicians and several of them have openly admitted to traditional homeschooling or online charter for their own children. Most of them will not state their religious reasons for doing so, therefore they tend to be loathe to force it on everyone else. There used to be a state legislator from Genesee County that would regularly introduce a bill to force registration and to enforce the homeschool statute, but it was always soundly defeated.

 

So, it's rather interesting because a huge number of people in Michigan are under the impression that there is ZERO responsibility to the state for homeschooling. Total, complete freedom. However, it isn't the case. There are very specific regulations on what subjects must be addressed and what level of education you are expected to provide under the law. So for those that don't pursue through algebra 2, four years of high school English, social studies/history plus US Government, biology and other sciences, and a fourth math of some kind, they are doing so in violation of the law and could potentially be forced to answer for that in court if a school district or social worker really wanted to push the issue. Likely if not Amish or Mennonite, the parents would not have a leg to stand on unless the child had an IEP or the parent produced the learning disability diagnosis, in which case exemptions potentially apply and the courts here being fairly conservative are pretty likely to side with the parent. 

 

Here is a link to a very fascinating review of the case of Yoder vs. Wisconsin, and the two court cases from the 1920's that the court cited in it's decision. Likely the Wisconsin and MInnesota cases are the reason that the no entity in Michigan has taken on religious groups that only teach to the 8th grade despite it being a violation of state law assuming that Michigan's Supreme Court, which has historically been fairly conservative on parental rights issues, would find similarly to the Wisconsin court.

 

http://scholarship.law.berkeley.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2528&context=californialawreview

 

It's an interesting read if you have the time. I will warn you though, it is 27 pages long!

[Catwoman]

Yes I was talking about our church.

 

You're right. I didn't mean to imply that doctor's couldn't live fulfilling lives or that less educated church members always do. It's just been our experience that my dh's colleague are mostly unhappy and unfulfilled. There are some exceptions though. I was trying to point out that education doesn't bring about fulfillment or success in and of itself and was therefore not a path we feel compelled to encourage our children to go down.

I'm not trying to be argumentative -- I am honestly just trying to understand your perspective -- but what it one of your children grows up to value things like financial success, or if she wants to be a doctor or a lawyer, even without any particular encouragement from you and your dh? Will you help her achieve those goals?

[Murphy101]

Being a Dr may totally suck right now, I get that. My own GPs tell others not to go into medicine for the same reasons. However, I sure so appreciate them when I have to take my kids in, or when my disk blew. 

Despite the difficulties Drs face right now, the difficulties humanity faces without them is far worse. I would really be terrified if every Dr decided to go follow their bliss and leave the hospitals empty.

 

I wouldn't. I would be terrified to live in a country that makes helping and healing people such a nightmare that no one wants to go into that for a career and those in it want out. Mere appreciation eventually is not enough to entice people to that hot mess.

[Guest]

Jinnah seemed to want it. I'll delete since it was offensive to others. She posted concerned that Joanne and I had not posted our resumes to back up our opinions. I'll go take care of it.

 

Sorry.

 

That isn't true.  I think you have me mixed up with someone else??  I only commented negatively when resumes *were* posted as a "I know more than you" stance.

[Guest]

I don't think Jinnah wanted anyone to post a resume.

 

Perhaps I missed her point but I thought it was that people who have not posted their resumes still have valid opinions.

 

Exactly.  

[Guest]

I didn't get the impression that she wanted to see anyone's qualifications, but I could be mistaken about that.

 

Faith, please don't think I was offended that you posted your resume -- I think I phrased my post awkwardly because I was actually trying to be supportive of you. I didn't think you needed to post your qualifications in order for people to take your opinions and experiences seriously.

 

I'm so sorry if I came across the wrong way! :blush:

 

I actually liked her posts, myself.  My post wasn't even in response to hers!

[Guest]

Sadie, I removed most of that post since I realized after comments that I should have sent that by PM to Jinnah since she was the only poster that hinted she would like to see that. I'm sorry for any confusion or offense.

 

Faith, I really think you have me confused with someone else.  Can you go back and reread to see?  I never asked for anyone's qualifications.  I was actually put off when people started posting them!

[at the beach]

Here is a link to a very fascinating review of the case of Yoder vs. Wisconsin, and the two court cases from the 1920's that the court cited in it's decision. Likely the Wisconsin and MInnesota cases are the reason that the no entity in Michigan has taken on religious groups that only teach to the 8th grade despite it being a violation of state law assuming that Michigan's Supreme Court, which has historically been fairly conservative on parental rights issues, would find similarly to the Wisconsin court.

 

http://scholarship.law.berkeley.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2528&context=californialawreview

 

It's an interesting read if you have the time. I will warn you though, it is 27 pages long!

 

Knudsen, whose review was published in 1974, certainly has some interesting opinions. He suggests that with children of a certain age (14), "the state might require parents and children to consult with a 'neutral' party (perhaps a psychologist) prior to the child's decision." http://scholarship.law.berkeley.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2528&context=californialawreview

[FaithManor]

I actually liked her posts, myself.  My post wasn't even in response to hers!

I must have misread. It happens, I'm very sorry. Must drink more coffee and slow down! I'd go back and re-read now, but it's our middle ds's 16th birthday today and he's waking up soon. I have special breakfast to make, and I have other preparations to make for the day so I'll be offline. Again, very, very sorry that I messed up.

[flyingiguana]

I agree. Shakespeare contributed 12,000 or so new words alone to the English language many of which are in use today, and radically changed language usage without the additional vocabulary.

 

Here's another essay on the Tolstoy essay on Shakespeare:

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/adventures-in-old-age/200912/battle-the-titans-tolstoy-disses-shakespeare

 

And I feel compelled to mention my own theory -- that Shakespeare could not have invented all those new words.  Not if he wanted audiences of the time to actually go to his plays.  I would guess he was just the first person to write down the rapid changes that were happening in the language.

 

Yes, it's true, there are a few people who learn Klingon, but that doesn't mean you can't understand Star Trek without knowing Klingon.  And I have yet to see too many of those Klingon words making it into common speech. 

 

All that said, though, a decent education would introduce students to Shakespeare and let them decide for themselves if they think it's drivel.  Given the huge influence he's had (or is purported to have), it would be a disservice to the student to avoid Shakespeare.

 

That said, though -- for myself, I do find Shakespeare to be kind of tiresome.  It's rather like Thoreau and Emerson.  You get a good quote now and then, but I don't have the patience to sit through all the rest of it. 

 

I was introduced to a lot of it -- and I have forced my kids through it as well.  Cause, well, it's Shakespeare and it's good to know where the quotes and the plots came from.  (Although, like his supposed invention of that huge vocabulary, he probably didn't come up with the plots either)

[Guest]

I must have misread. It happens, I'm very sorry. Must drink more coffee and slow down! I'd go back and re-read now, but it's our middle ds's 16th birthday today and he's waking up soon. I have special breakfast to make, and I have other preparations to make for the day so I'll be offline. Again, very, very sorry that I messed up.

 

No problem!  I've mixed things up before, myself.  :)

[unsinkable]

Here's another essay on the Tolstoy essay on Shakespeare:

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/adventures-in-old-age/200912/battle-the-titans-tolstoy-disses-shakespeare

 

And I feel compelled to mention my own theory -- that Shakespeare could not have invented all those new words. Not if he wanted audiences of the time to actually go to his plays. I would guess he was just the first person to write down the rapid changes that were happening in the language.

 

Yes, it's true, there are a few people who learn Klingon, but that doesn't mean you can't understand Star Trek without knowing Klingon. And I have yet to see too many of those Klingon words making it into common speech.

 

All that said, though, a decent education would introduce students to Shakespeare and let them decide for themselves if they think it's drivel. Given the huge influence he's had (or is purported to have), it would be a disservice to the student to avoid Shakespeare.

 

That said, though -- for myself, I do find Shakespeare to be kind of tiresome. It's rather like Thoreau and Emerson. You get a good quote now and then, but I don't have the patience to sit through all the rest of it.

 

I was introduced to a lot of it -- and I have forced my kids through it as well. Cause, well, it's Shakespeare and it's good to know where the quotes and the plots came from. (Although, like his supposed invention of that huge vocabulary, he probably didn't come up with the plots either)

I've read Shakespeare coined closer to a 1,000 or so words, not 12,000.

 

1,000 or so is an easier number to imagine being successfully integrated over the years of his writing.

[Audrey]

Is it really necessary for anyone to start posting resumes and lists of their qualifications? :confused:

 

I value everyone's opinion here, regardless of their "official" qualifications.

 

I don't think anyone should feel the need to prove the validity or usefulness of their posts.

 

I agree.  Papers hanging on one's wall do not make one an expert, and if one is constantly having to refer to said papers, then one is being a bit of an insecure snob, or even an ass.

[Audrey]

Jinnah seemed to want it. I'll delete since it was offensive to others. She posted concerned that Joanne and I had not posted our resumes to back up our opinions. I'll go take care of it.

 

Sorry.

 

I think Jinnah was pointing out that some people like to wave their degrees around a lot and, if not directly, then indirectly, imply that those papers make them more qualified to give an opinion that is worthy of consideration. 

 

A paper 'pissing contest' ... so to speak.

 

Always an ugly thing, no matter how one intends it.

[Audrey]

Reading this thread led me to thinking about other threads and I wanted to pull up and share a thread from the past:

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/452223-any-veterans-here-who-have-hs-their-children-successfully/?p=4657801

I love DianeW88's post - I have it printed out and posted on my fridge. :)  I think she was saying what FaithManor, Joanne, and others have been saying - as homeschoolers, we need to encourage each other to do what we need to do to get the teaching done.  "Neglect" is a harsh word and I don't think I'd call it that but when homeschooling mamas are struggling, we don't do them any favours by telling them that it's OK because they can make it up in a few years.  For some kids - yes, they may be able to do 3 years of math in a few months.  Most can't.  It's not always better because it's home.  As a previous poster stated, I know I'll be ruffling feathers by saying all of this and I'm sorry for that.  I do think "homeschool fails" are homeschooling's dirty little secret (I seem to remember reading that in another thread from about the same time period as the last one but I can't find it) and it's not just spectacular fails that we would all, without hesitation, call neglect or abuse.  It's the non-spectacular ones where we start out with the best of intentions and then it just... gets away from us.  We need to support each other in those times but it isn't going to help anyone when we trot out the mantra, "It's OK.  Whatever you do, it's better than they'd get at public school.".  That just isn't always true.  We need to encourage the struggling mamas to get back on track and if they are in a situation where it just isn't possible for the moment that there's no shame in putting the kids in public or private school until things get sorted out.  Homeschooling is hard, exhausting, and time consuming.  If we choose to do it all the way through, we ARE it, educationally, for our kids.  There is no one else to pick up the slack.

 

And now, to follow DianeW88's advice, I need to get off the Internet and do some marking from this week. :)

 

 

I agree.  Over the 12+ years I've been around these boards, there have been umpteen women post about struggling.  The majority of people will always say "it's okay... go easy... go light... just read aloud for now"  or other such advice.  I never did and never would do that.  To paraphrase ... "A gal's gotta know her limitations."  If you cannot homeschool, don't homeschool.  Find something else that will work for your child's needs because homeschooling is NOT about you, the parent.  It's about what the child needs and what will work best for them.  Hard times come along, for sure, but if you can't find a way to keep the commitment to education, then they need to have that education somewhere or somehow else. Homeschooling is NOT your entitlement.  It is your responsibility.

[Guest]

I agree.  Over the 12+ years I've been around these boards, there have been umpteen women post about struggling.  The majority of people will always say "it's okay... go easy... go light... just read aloud for now"  or other such advice.  I never did and never would do that.  To paraphrase ... "A gal's gotta know her limitations."  If you cannot homeschool, don't homeschool.  Find something else that will work for your child's needs because homeschooling is NOT about you, the parent.  It's about what the child needs and what will work best for them.  Hard times come along, for sure, but if you can't find a way to keep the commitment to education, then they need to have that education somewhere or somehow else. Homeschooling is NOT your entitlement.  It is your responsibility.

 

Exactly.

 

The year I was pregnant/giving birth, I knew I would have a more difficult time homeschooling, so we used A Beka's streaming program so the kids would continue to get a full year of solid work and not fall behind.  I don't feel like it would be within my rights to let their education fall by the wayside because I was too sick or too tired to properly teach.  

 

I know some will take some time off and catch up over the summer, and that is one thing... I'm not talking about those situations.  I'm talking about people who have the attitude previously discussed... that any education they get at home is better than what they get at public school.  I can tell you that is absolutely NOT TRUE.  Our two oldest are in public school (and doing well), but the work at school is just that... work.  It's not crappy like people like to claim about public school.  I think it's quality material, too... I just don't like the social aspects of public school the way I thought I would, so we won't be doing public school much longer.  The remaining two will be home for next school year, if not sooner (our other son who tried out ps last year is already back at home).  Sorry to derail!  My point was the educational part is great (at least in our district).  Doing nothing at home (or almost nothing) isn't going to cut it.

[Seasider]

I agree. Over the 12+ years I've been around these boards, there have been umpteen women post about struggling. The majority of people will always say "it's okay... go easy... go light... just read aloud for now" or other such advice. I never did and never would do that. To paraphrase ... "A gal's gotta know her limitations." If you cannot homeschool, don't homeschool. Find something else that will work for your child's needs because homeschooling is NOT about you, the parent. It's about what the child needs and what will work best for them. Hard times come along, for sure, but if you can't find a way to keep the commitment to education, then they need to have that education somewhere or somehow else. Homeschooling is NOT your entitlement. It is your responsibility.

I think there's a difference between what is relatively certain to be a short season of struggle with young elementary kids in the mix, versus middle to higher grades and the inability of the parent to ever really get a handle on things. I know I have told anxious moms of 6 year olds not to worry, there's still plenty of time, but that's not the same as saying that to the mom of an 8th grader.

 

ETA I do agree with you, just didn't want anyone to think there wasn't a distinction between learning to find one's initial groove and the long term provision of an adequate education. I do see those as two different scenarios.

[Guest]

I think there's a difference between what is relatively certain to be a short season of struggle with young elementary kids in the mix, versus middle to higher grades and the inability of the parent to ever really get a handle on things. I know I have told anxious moms of 6 year olds not to worry, there's still plenty of time, but that's not the same as saying that to the mom of an 8th grader.

 

ETA I do agree with you, just didn't want anyone to think there wasn't a distinction between learning to find one's initial groove and the long term provision of an adequate education. I do see those as two different scenarios.

 

That's true.  

[creekland]

 

That said, though -- for myself, I do find Shakespeare to be kind of tiresome.  It's rather like Thoreau and Emerson.  You get a good quote now and then, but I don't have the patience to sit through all the rest of it. 

 

Thoreau and Emerson were tiresome and can be compared to Shakespeare?  Hmm... this non-English person (science/math) LOVED Thoreau and Emerson... and I totally dislike Shakespeare (but made my kids read some - just not nearly as many as I had to endure in ps).

 

Sorry for the rabbit trail - well, not really, gotta stick up for my "likes" after all!  (YMMV)

[Reefgazer]

Meant to say and forgot.....I think this is an excellent summary of the situation (well, except for the Amish comments, but then, we already determined we've had different experiences with that). 

 

Sometimes I sit here and wonder if I am up to giving DD and DS a rigorous and effective high school education.  I feel that I am (even though it will take a ton of work and sacrifice to do so), but then I wonder if I am kidding myself.  Your post helps put that in perspective.

It's a very complex problem. My experience - obviously not a statistical study of anything just anecdotal - has been that some families in the community (we've met them through 4-H and at various times their kids have been a part of our science club and their parents were open about their homeschooling choices because they figured out that we homeschool as well) were for the most part at least doing what I would call a minimum through the elementary years. This would mean a math curriculum that appeared to be completed on a fairly regular basis, rudimentary readings skills...usually phonics through say 2nd grade or something like that, some handwriting, and then some English type program. This usually was pursued until the end of 5th grade. Sometime in 6th grade, the work got a lot harder for the parents who were not particularly well prepped nor interested in prepping themselves or hiring tutors. This was especially true of math. Often times though it also included English if they were attempting to use a course like Abeka which gets a lot tougher in middle school, seriously more difficult in a short period of time. The fun and easy workbooks that were so cheap seemed to end at 5th grade, curriculum labeled for middle school became more complicated than they anticipated. They also due to religious views often became very uncomfortable with the level of reading material because of the moral topics covered, and well not the fun, innocent fantasy world of elementary school. They didn't like their options for literature, didn't like the nitty gritty of history or science at that level, the emotionally difficult topics, and by the time they hit converting fractions to percentages, setting up ratios to solve word problems, solving for an unknown angle based on the measurements of one angle requiring the student to remember supplementary and complementary angle definitions in order to solve the equation, diagramming complex sentences, discussing the causes of WWI, and converting between Farenheit and Celsius in science or discussing Newton's Laws, WHAMO it wasn't easy anymore! This is by their OWN admission to us. They did not appreciate their easy homeschooling days being over, and were not interested in getting up to speed on these topics, dusting off their skills (maybe a few never had those skills to begin with - don't really know about that), and pouring over the books, making lesson plans, and directly teaching for the better part of the day. It then became the exclusive responsibility of their child to figure it out for him or herself, and if it never got done, it never got done.

 

As a result, when we've had middle school and high school meetings within 4-H for the purpose of doing more difficult science projects (we require properly completed lab notes for these), they quit. It was fun when they were little and could do the easy stuff. We would have been more than willing to hand hold them through the scientific method, through the math, writing the hypothesis, creating the experiment, collecting the data, and forming a conclusion...that's what we are there for after all...but once it was hard, they quit. The parents pretty much admitted that this is what happens at home. If the curriculum is hard, they quit. Thus the student spends 7th grade through the age of 18 basically spinning wheels, and due to fears about literature, rarely reads anything above a 7th grade level except the Bible, and frankly, I have to wonder how much of that they can digest if their comprehension level is never challenged on other fronts. At about 18, knowing their kid hasn't earned anything remotely resembling a diploma, they are sent to GED study classes, and then take the GED. Of the 14 students who were homeschooled and over the years quit the club when the projects became more difficult, 13 have failed the GED the first time according to their parents, and directly from the horses' mouth, of those 13, 9 had to take it a third time in order to pass.

 

The huge problem in this community is that a GED is a ticket to unemployability. Employers really discriminate against it, and many have right there on the applications, "Must have a high school diploma. Homeschoolers must submit a transcript if they do not have community college credits. GED is not accepted".

 

It is a rough, rough situation for these kids.

 

So, from my perspective, in these cases, educational neglect has taken place. These kids are neurotypical 18 year olds who are unemployable. Failing the GED more than once is a huge indicator that from 6th grade forward, the child was rather educationally feral! The reading level of the Michigan GED is 9th grade. No algebra is tested, just basic arithmetic and consumer math. The new version has social studies and science. These are kids who did not complete middle school level history or science and did not read higher level literature by their parents own admission are likely not capable of passing these new sections.  I doubt that the science section is at all intensive, but on the other hand, since 7th and 8th grade math books are where more intensive work at reading and interpreting graphs and data begins, it stands to reason if the 6th grade math book is about as far as the student progressed, they probably aren't going to do well in the science section.

 

As one mother told me, "I figure if he is reading a lot. He is learning." Me: "What is he reading?" Her: "Oh, joke books, the Bible, the Chronicles of Narnia, Swiss Family Robinson, How to Train a Dragon, Hardy Boys, and GH Henty. He really can't get enough of Hardy Boys."

 

"What is he doing for math and science?" Her: "He watches Mythbusters and he cooks, bakes, and measures things around the house."

 

:svengo:

 

So there comes a time in these families when they do not effectively unschool (I've seen that done well and it's rather time and planning intensive for the parents) nor do they school at home in a capacity that is progressing the education. Given that this does not even take them to the level of the 9th grade equivalency on the GED and the fact that it is a well known fact that the GED is rejected regularly around here, I consider that educational neglect.

 

I think that for the most part, there probably aren't very many parents who are going to hang around on a classical homeschooling board if they don't care about their kids' educations. Maybe there will be one or two trolling through every once and while, curious about what we are doing, and completely uninterested in progressing their own children's educations. But, I suspect this would be fairly rare and may be one reason that some are uncomfortable discussing it. For many of you, it will be outside the bounds of your personal experience. You are hanging out with people who are educating their kids. You are hanging out with people who will not be homeschooling for 7th-12th grade unless they feel they can handle it. You are hanging out with people that will buy video lectures, sign up for online classes, hire a tutor, use the community college, whatever it takes if a subject becomes more than you can manage. So, you aren't aware of the use of homeschooling as a cover for not educating children. But, unfortunately it is out there. These kids do not show up in the college statistics on homeschoolers that MSU, U of MI, MI Tech, and other schools keep because it's self selecting. If you aren't capable of passing the GED test, you aren't applying to MSU for biology or whatever. You just aren't. You aren't taking the ACT. So, the only entities in Michigan that are kind of tracking the progress of homeschoolers are only tracking the ones whose parents educated them and applied to these tier 1 schools. Of course colleges in Michigan love homeschoolers! That's because they only see one kind, and probably, that would be fairly representative of mainstream homeschooling where the majority of parents care about their kids educations enough to really apply themselves to it. They aren't seeing the low end of the bell curve, the extreme, the educational neglect low. Amish kids, most of the more extreme Mennonite community, ATI kids, Vision Forum....they aren't applying to Michigan State, or any other accredited institution, and most of them aren't applying to trade school or community college either. If you aren't volunteering in some educational organization such as 4-H, scouts, community outreach, etc., you may be blissfully unaware that this problem exists. I would imagine that for the most part, the State Board of Education is completely unaware of it as well.

 

People often cite the ACT average for high schoolers which usually runs in most states two points above the state average as proof that homeschooling is so effective. Well, it's effective for the kids who have parents who are signing them up for the ACT because those parents wouldn't be signing them up if they were against educating them to that level. It's self selecting. So, when one quotes those statistics, it needs to be prefaced with "This is the 2014 average for college bound homeschool students". That's a subset of homeschoolers. Possibly a decent size subset, but really not representative of homeschooling in general. Many of the students who are well home educated are also at trade schools that had different entrance exams, or at the CC using dual enrollment and again, took the Compass exam to get in instead of the ACT. So, their numbers are not averaged into the above. The subset that may be scoring very low, suffering true educational neglect are not likely to be accounted for in any capacity in a non reporting state such as Michigan. As someone said of NY, they may not be accounted for in that state either because the harder exams are not required.

 

Therefore, it's worth discussing because at some point, if the powers that be really begin attempted tracking of that subset, then it could result in laws that infringe greatly upon the rights of those that are getting the job done. We've seen it before. The majority ends up being treated like liars because of the small subset of those that lied. None of us appreciate that!

 

Creekland, while I've never personally known substance abusers who have used homeschooling as a guise for not making their children go to school (I've known the opposite....school is wonderful daycare because they don't want to deal with children while hung over all morning and half the afternoon), if that were a remotely common problem, then Yikes, I don't want to think about what laws could end up enacted to counter it.

 

[Reefgazer]

I feel strongly about parental rights and freedom to practice one's religion; my personal line in the sand bends far towards those rights.  But, how can you even be confident that you can recognize liberty and freedom, the loss of it, or the techniques used by governments and despots to take such liberties if you are not well educated?

I have a slightly unusual perspective to offer. I grew up in a disfunctional, secular home but as adult my husband and I joined a group of conservative, fringe anabaptists (I don't take the term fundementalist but I'd probably get lumped in there).

When I was growing up my mother pulled me out of school for most of a year due to bullying. We barely got through the distance-ed curriculum that the province (BC, CA) sent to us. My mother later pulled my much younger brother out for a year because he was having "too many conflicts" with the administration. Really he was just a mouthy brat and my parents couldn't control him. They really accomplished nothing that year and eventually the provincial authorities (Manitoba, CA) caused too much trouble and he was sent back to school. About a year later he dropped out.

When I was a teenager I knew one family that "homeschooled" after the mother died and the father spiralled into depression. The children were completely ferral. A friend of mine tried to report them (she was a teenager at the time) but was brushed off and told that nothing could be done because they were "registered".

I met one family through a homeschool play group that was homeschooling because the mother didn't think that she should ever tell her children what to do nor did she want others to do so. Basically, she didn't believe in authority over children. I witnessed her six year cuss her out without any reprucussions. I can only imagine how much education was done!

Jump forward to where I am now...

We're now "quiverful", "conservative", "fundementalist" "anabaptists". I'm not gearing my children for college (even though my dh is a medical doctor); I hope that my daughters never work outside the home; I'd be terribly sad if my children left our faith. I believe that a lot secular classics, like Shakespeare, are drivel. These stem from our sincere beliefs about separation from the world, a worldview that is diametrically opposed to a secular worldview and what we believe to be a woman's role. Most of the people that we would fellowship with would believe about the same way as us in these areas.

Does framing our children's education around our religious beliefs constitute educational neglect? I believe my primary goal as a parent is to pass on my faith to my children. The goals that I have for my children's education are based around this. My choices are intentional and I really don't want the state (or in our case, the province) to impose their worldview on us.

I guess this comes down to a question about just how important education really is. I personally value my children's education. I want them to be aware of the world around them and to not be easily deceived. I want them to be able to read and write well and to be able to frame a good argument. I want them to be able to teach themselves if they feel like what I've given them is inadequate. I want my daughters to be employable if they have to find work outside of the home. Many people that I'm in fellowship with though do not place as much attention on their children's education. Sometimes I can feel a little self-righteous about how we're doing a better job than they are but then I think about it and quesion just how important education really is. Many of those in our fellowship can't handle reading higher level writing, some can't read music when we sing, some struggle to understand complex arguments, one didn't know that W Viginia was a state (he's American), several didn't know where BC was and when they did a few didn't relise that it was in the same time zone as WA and OR (more Americans). They're all employed. They love their families, they're not stupid or ignorant. For the record, all these brothers and sisters joined our group from typical American upbringings. Are my dh and I more valuable members of our fellowhship because we're more educated? I really don't think so. Education isn't what makes a good person. It's simply a tool that helps people accomplish their greater goals, either good or evil ones. It can help accomplish employability but we all know that there are highly educated, unemployable people out there as well. Should parents be held accountable to provide this tool for their children? I suppose to some extent but I think a bare minimum is about as far as the state should go. Education is just not that important that it's worth stepping on people's liberty or freedom to pass on their worldview/religion to their children.

Editted to add: Please notice that I did say that I plan to educate my daughters. I just hope that they never need to work outside of the home.

 

[HS Mom in NC]

Addressing the Problem Within the Homeschooling Community

 

Anyone been at a convention or gathering of homeschoolers where academic excellence was addressed?  I think (and I could be wrong) that it was the guy who does research for HSLDA who ended his presentation at the AZ Homeschool convention keynote address ( this has been within the last 10 years) about the stats he had on homeschoolers with "Stop believing your own PR."  Then he went on to say that yes, as a whole homeschoolers were doing better than ps kids, but as a whole, US children score lower in Math and Science and we all really needed to focus on that and keep getting better.  That anyone who believes their own PR is in danger of being coming less conscientious about keeping standards up.

 

Anyone else out there getting that at all in your circles?

 

The Philosophical and Legal Problems of Ignoring the Problem

 

I'd like to hear more from HSLDA types about how they don't spend time defending homeschooling rights so parents can provide poor academics.  They spend time in courts arguing that homeschoolers without teacher training are capable of providing an education to their children that is not only as good, but often better than what kids are getting in ps.  If homeschoolers prove them wrong on this  point, then what's to defend?

 

 

Homeschooling Culture Shift with Balance

 

The problem is that it's socially unacceptable to address this in many homeschooling circles.  I think there's a defensive type homeschooling parent that is terrified of taking a good hard look, and there are some philosophically ingrained problems with some homeschoolers.  So how do we articulate it an expectation of excellence around homeschoolers in a respectful way?  How do we avoid undue pressure on people to do everything the same way? Also, how do create a culture that is sensitive to the fact that different children have different potentials academically without shaming children who are not the best at academics and children who have the least cognitive abilities?

 

Proactive Solutions from the Homeschooling Experts-Us

 

Anyway, instead of going on about the problem which has limited usefulness, what can we do to start solving the problem among ourselves?  We all face the challenges of homeschooling and we all value our freedom.  So, all ideas are welcome for discussion and elaboration.

 

[Reefgazer]

Get out yer readin' glasses.  :)
 
I've only been to 2 homeschooling conventions because I haven't been homeschooling that long.  I attended both conventions all the days that were offered, and stayed the full day.  But I tend to gravitate to the academically oriented talks/workshops and curriculum workshops and tend to avoid the "family structure" or "religious" talks.  But in that entire time, I can honestly say I did not hear one talk about academic excellence.  I heard lots of talks about getting it done, or about working with difficult children, or satisfying state requirements, but none about shooting for the highest star.  As a typical example:  I saw a presentation by a well-known homeschooling mom about homeschooling high school and preparing a transcript.  From all accounts, she has done an excellent job raising and schooling her children.  I have this woman's book; it is excellent.  But in that talk, she emphasized "you can do this", "cobble together a credit of ________ by adding your child's outside interests together", and "outsource, outsource, outsource if you can't handle the work yourself."  I get that homeschooling high school is intimidating and one of the goals has to be to buck up people who are afraid.  But if I homeschool high school, I will be preparing my kids as if they will be applying to Harvard.  I fully understand few actually get into Harvard; but I will prepare my children that way nevertheless, so that they are not limited by their education.  My goal in removing my kids from public school was to give them a better education, so in my mind, if I can't do that, I have no business homeschooling.  But the majority of the talks seemed to be focused on just being good enough at schooling to get by, not aiming for excellence.   
 
We have been in two co-ops since we've begun homeschooling.  One co-op I still haven't gotten a handle on the culture really...they seem to be live and let live kind of people.  The other co-op has a lot of unschoolers in it.  One day I was putting together my Latin lesson plans when a mom there asked me what I was doing.  When I told her, she curled her lip and asked "why in the world would I teach Latin?"  I overheard this same mom and another talking, and rejecting the "academic type" courses being offered for the following semester.  Her kid is in 9th grade!  WTH?  It's like academics are a dirty word to her.  So now I'm embarrassed to prep my lesson plans there, LOL!  And I need lesson plans; I cannot function without a bit of order and nothing would get done without them.
 
Regarding the philosophical and legal problems of ignoring the problem:  I am not sure HSLDA's primary goal is to defend the excellence or relative superiority of homeschooling so much as it is to defend the religious right to educate your children in the way you best see fit.  If that is their goal (and I believe it is), then academic excellence is a secondary concern for them.  I am personally not religious, but I agree with them that religious freedom is a basic human right, and I can see their reasoning on this.  From their POV, it makes sense that academic excellence is secondary, especially in light of the fact that the entity charged with enforcing even minimal academic excellence (the state government) cannot even seem to police their own house (public school) in that regard.  Now I am not saying that because public schools fail, it should be OK for homeschools to fail also.  What I am saying is that the state government is a poor choice to regulate homeschools.  So if homeschools fail, that is secondary to the religious right to educate your child as you see fit.  This was the crux of why they took the case of the German homeschoolers (Romeike?).  It wasn't a test of German homeschooling.  It was a test of whether or not the US government saw the religious right to educate a child has absolute, and whether the US government would stand behind that failure as a human rights violation and grant asylum to the family.  That's why it was so troubling to HSLDA that the Supremes didn't see things that way, even though the German family got to stay here.  Like I said, I have only been homeschooling a few years, and have seen the founder of HSLDA speak twice.  Both times, he hammered on the religious right to homeschool, and he point-blank and in clear language defended the right of atheists to school as they wish, also.  They are not primarily an educational organization, but a religious freedom organization. 
 
So, how do we articulate the expectation of excellence around homeschoolers in a respectful way?  I suppose I could start by preparing my Latin lesson plans in public, right?  LOL!  I guess I was just intimidated because I was a new homeschoolers when she said that to me.  Anyway, I don't really know that there is a solution to this problem, other than not socially excusing parents who are not educating their children conscientiously.  But I have a sneaking suspicion if someone called out a mom on here for slacking off, there are a whole lot of other posters who would jump on her case and attack.  As much as I would like to believe otherwise, I think people here are like people in most communities - that is, very intolerant toward views outside their own and their group.  So that intolerance should stop for excellence to go forward in the homeschooling community.

 

How can we solve the problem, while still valuing our freedom?  Short of social pressure with no legal backing, I don't think we can.  Part of freedom is the freedom to fail spectacularly, including failing in the raising of our children.  Parents are free to feed their kids as they wish, even if it's donuts and soda for breakfast.  They are free to live in a piss-poor school district, even if it means their kids are consigned to poverty for their entire lives because of it.  Parents are free to teach their kids all sorts of crazy religious crap, even if it scars them emotionally for life.  They are allowed to let them watch TV 24 -7, even though it contributes to life-threatening obesity and poor school performance.  They are allowed to not help them with their homework, even though the child is academically struggling.  And so it goes.  Why should homeschooling be any different?  When you add in that the idea that educating one's child is a religiously protected right, I think trying to control that is a slippery slope. 

 

That's looking at it in black and while.  That said, my personal line in the sand for society as whole is not quite as extreme.  In other words, I personally am willing to give up a very small amount of freedom in exchange for ensuring minimal academic competency.  I can see where others might not see the same though.  In the same way that I can accept that spanking is OK in some circles, but I'll draw the legal line at beating a child.  I would be willing to accept year-to year academic growth assessments and/or a single competency test at the end of the year for all children, to ensure that something is happening educationally.  It would have to be a situation where the laws were put in place at a state-by-state level, though, because the constitution leaves the business of education to the states, not the federal government.  I would fight tooth and nail that this not become a federal issue, on constitutional grounds, and also on the grounds that the feds can screw up high mass.  The governing body of these assessments should not be the state education department, however, since they cannot seem to govern their own house of public schools.  I would guess a body of homeschoolers, perhaps elected by homeschoolers, would be acceptable.  Just throwing that out there for consideration and discussion.....

 
 
 

Addressing the Problem Within the Homeschooling Community
 
Anyone been at a convention or gathering of homeschoolers where academic excellence was addressed?  I think (and I could be wrong) that it was the guy who does research for HSLDA who ended his presentation at the AZ Homeschool convention keynote address ( this has been within the last 10 years) about the stats he had on homeschoolers with "Stop believing your own PR."  Then he went on to say that yes, as a whole homeschoolers were doing better than ps kids, but as a whole, US children score lower in Math and Science and we all really needed to focus on that and keep getting better.  That anyone who believes their own PR is in danger of being coming less conscientious about keeping standards up.
 
Anyone else out there getting that at all in your circles?
 
The Philosophical and Legal Problems of Ignoring the Problem
 
I'd like to hear more from HSLDA types about how they don't spend time defending homeschooling rights so parents can provide poor academics.  They spend time in courts arguing that homeschoolers without teacher training are capable of providing an education to their children that is not only as good, but often better than what kids are getting in ps.  If homeschoolers prove them wrong on this  point, then what's to defend?
 
 
Homeschooling Culture Shift with Balance
 
The problem is that it's socially unacceptable to address this in many homeschooling circles.  I think there's a defensive type homeschooling parent that is terrified of taking a good hard look, and there are some philosophically ingrained problems with some homeschoolers.  So how do we articulate it an expectation of excellence around homeschoolers in a respectful way?  How do we avoid undue pressure on people to do everything the same way? Also, how do create a culture that is sensitive to the fact that different children have different potentials academically without shaming children who are not the best at academics and children who have the least cognitive abilities?
 
Proactive Solutions from the Homeschooling Experts-Us
 
Anyway, instead of going on about the problem which has limited usefulness, what can we do to start solving the problem among ourselves?  We all face the challenges of homeschooling and we all value our freedom.  So, all ideas are welcome for discussion and elaboration.

[VeritasMama]

 

Addressing the Problem Within the Homeschooling Community

 

Anyone been at a convention or gathering of homeschoolers where academic excellence was addressed? I think (and I could be wrong) that it was the guy who does research for HSLDA who ended his presentation at the AZ Homeschool convention keynote address ( this has been within the last 10 years) about the stats he had on homeschoolers with "Stop believing your own PR."

 

I attended a Catholic homeschooling conference this last spring. I attended a day long workshop on all things high school. The presenter was a former high school counselor who left teaching to home school her own children, who all earned post secondary degrees. She is now an educational consultant who helps all types of students and parents both in school and homeschooling.

 

The entire workshop was focused on academics and how to ensure that your student is ready for any college they may wish to attend. It was obviously a broad overview, but it included so many helpful resources. It did make me feel like I can accomplish this, though it is going to be a challenge.

 

In the circles I am in, academics and tailoring the curriculum to meet the needs of individual students are the two main reasons for homeschooling, and so academic success is the focus. It is interesting and odd to me that so many homeschoolers seem to have a "good enough is good enough" attitude. In the area I am in, homeschoolers do out perform the students in school, I never stopped to think that that isn't a very difficult accomplishment in a lot of places.

[stripe]

I think there's a difference between what is relatively certain to be a short season of struggle with young elementary kids in the mix, versus middle to higher grades and the inability of the parent to ever really get a handle on things. I know I have told anxious moms of 6 year olds not to worry, there's still plenty of time, but that's not the same as saying that to the mom of an 8th grader.

And the problem sometimes is that some parents have no clue what is developmentally appropriate or what typical kids do, in a way that teachers often do. So, yeah, I'd tell the mother of a 4 year old not to worry that her daughter isn't reading and put down those flashcards, but I wouldn't say that about an 8 year old. I know I said not to worry so much about grammar in a recent post about an elem aged kid, but that was more because I felt the environment had become a bit heated about that, so it'd be better to drop it, move on to other things, and return to grammar, presented more clearly, in a little while. It was a two pronged thing that also suggested the mother change her approach.  But I do also think there is an element of, "Well, I forgot everything I learned in school, so why even bother teaching it to my kids in the first place?" It's an embrace-the-ignorance sort of approach, or, rules are boring and restrictive thing.

[Dmmetler]

So what can homeschoolers do when we see a family where the parent is in over their heads (and realizes it, but has a whole litany of reasons for why it's OK) and the kids are way behind, but the parent is probably legally within the bounds of homeschooling in a low or no regulation/evaluation required state?  IS there anything we can/should do, besides answer questions when they're asked?

 

 

 

[Jane in NC]

And the problem sometimes is that some parents have no clue what is developmentally appropriate or what typical kids do, in a way that teachers often do. So, yeah, I'd tell the mother of a 4 year old not to worry that her daughter isn't reading and put down those flashcards, but I wouldn't say that about an 8 year old. I know I said not to worry so much about grammar in a recent post about an elem aged kid, but that was more because I felt the environment had become a bit heated about that, so it'd be better to drop it, move on to other things, and return to grammar, presented more clearly, in a little while. It was a two pronged thing that also suggested the mother change her approach.  But I do also think there is an element of, "Well, I forgot everything I learned in school, so why even bother teaching it to my kids in the first place?" It's an embrace-the-ignorance sort of approach, or, rules are boring and restrictive thing.

 

I have encountered a similar thought process, namely "I never attended college and have made a fine life for myself."  Some parents/grandparents don't realize that certain jobs of yesteryear that may have only required a high school diploma now require a two or four year degree.  While CCs may have open enrollment policies, they do not automatically place students in college level courses.  Students who do two years of remediation before being able to take college transfer courses are not being done any favors.

[Catwoman]

So what can homeschoolers do when we see a family where the parent is in over their heads (and realizes it, but has a whole litany of reasons for why it's OK) and the kids are way behind, but the parent is probably legally within the bounds of homeschooling in a low or no regulation/evaluation required state? IS there anything we can/should do, besides answer questions when they're asked?

I wouldn't report a family for educational neglect unless there were also other huge red flags present that indicated an abusive situation or an unsafe home environment.

 

Frankly, I don't know what goes on in anyone else's home 24/7, and I'm not about to presume that I can somehow tell by looking at a family whether or not they are trying to educate their children.

 

Some people set lower standards for education than I do, and I'm sure others set higher standards, but that's what they are -- their standards for their families -- and I don't think I have the right to determine their standards for them.

[SarahW]

FaithManor, sorry not to go back pages to multi-quote, but, did you travel back in time and see me, by any chance?

 

You could have described me, and others I knew, from my own homeschooled days.

 

I remember elementary well. We did fun subjects like Spanish sometimes. We would sit around the dining room table and work on our books. We read books. We went on lots of field trips. But then middle school hit and...nothing. There were now multiple babies in the house. Curriculum was whatever free stuff we had laying around. I pretty much planned my own curriculum for the year, and chose the books I liked. Which didn't include a lot of subjects I didn't like.  I did it on my own in my room (hey, independent learning!) and when I got stuck I would wait rarely ask for help. 

 

We joined a co-op for a year, but it was enrichment only, recorder, ASL, and science experiments. That was expensive I think, because then we joined 4H with another local homeschooler we knew. That lasted a bit over a year due to friction among the group (which was partially our own fault). In 4H I picked the maximum amount of subjects (I think 6) and the leader got all worried about it (mostly because of completion stats making her look bad if I didn't fulfill them) but really, those 6 things were pretty much my school work for that year, and I learned more that year than any other middle school year. It's amazing what a good structured plan and a bit of a carrot will do!

 

I bought hook line and sinker the line that since I was homeschooled I was smarter than the other kids at church who went to ps. There was more than a bit of arrogance there. I remember when one of the Challengers blew up and my brother and I joked that it blew up because there was a ps teacher on it. A spaceship couldn't handle a stupid teacher, so it blew up, or something. Idk, definitely one of my worst moments. I continued to think I was smarter even when it was clear that I wasn't. One time in Sunday School we had to fill out a little puzzle with math problems to answer a question. I was usually proud that I could figure out those silly puzzles before anyone else, but this time some of the problems were in the form of long division. Math was one subject that I had gotten stuck on, and never bothered to pick back up, so I had no clue what that little )- thing was. I hid my paper while all my ps classmates happily completed it. That was incredibly humiliating. At some point after that I took my BJU Math5 book (or was it Math4? idk, I loathed those BJU math books with a passion. Still do, in fact) to my mother and made her explain division to me. She must have realized then that I was behind on math, and that BJU did not help me understand it, but nothing changed immediately after that.

 

I escaped the nothing+GED route because my brother was mathematically advanced, and that made my father get involved, and I rode along the coattails of part-time Christian school (again, doing no subjects other than the Math and English classes I was signed up for) and then, when old enough, DE. The homeschool friend we went to 4H though, she went the GED route. Not sure what eventually happened with her.

 

I am sad that that scenario is still happening today. Maybe there is something in the way hs'ing is thought of? I mean, I see lots of people/resources/articles about schooling elementary, and providing all these enrichment curriculums. And I see parents knocking themselves out going on field trips and special classes with 6 year olds, and I really wonder if all this effort it really worth it. It seems like it's okay to spend half a grand on a kindergarten curriculum, but eh, a 6th grader, just get some books out of the library and let them read them independently. I'm facetiously paraphrasing, but that really does seem to be how things go down sometimes. And I'm just trying to figure out why. Is it burn out from touring too many bread factories with little kids who will hardly remember being there? Is it a matter of the subculture valuing "need!moar!babies!!" over dealing with why?-asking teens? It is just simple anti-intellectualism? Is it maybe because middle/high school was emotionally scarring for the parents, and algebra is a trigger? Is it some of all of the above?

 

I don't know if any of that makes sense. But, FaithManor, yes, I validate your observations, and ugh, I don't know what to do with it. Except feel angsty about it. Bleh.

[Dicentra]

So what can homeschoolers do when we see a family where the parent is in over their heads (and realizes it, but has a whole litany of reasons for why it's OK) and the kids are way behind, but the parent is probably legally within the bounds of homeschooling in a low or no regulation/evaluation required state?  IS there anything we can/should do, besides answer questions when they're asked?

 

That's the million dollar question, isn't it, dm?  I don't know.  None of us are perfect and those of us who aren't necessarily in over our heads at the moment could have our situations change in a heartbeat.  We don't ever want to be coming across as though we have all the answers and if other folks would just listen to us, everything would be right as rain.  (Not saying you, dm, or anyone else has said anything remotely like this!   It's something that I struggle with myself and continue to struggle with - I'm a "fixer" and also I do happen to have a fair amount of experience in education. :)  If a homeschool mama is struggling, the "fixer" in me wants to stride in, make everything the way I think it should be  :001_rolleyes:, and voila - fixed. Yeah - you'd think with the number of times I'd been knocked off my high horse and humbled, the "fixer" in me would have died off a long time ago.  She still pipes up, though.  Tough to kill, that one.)

 

I think one of the things homeschool moms (and, heck - teachers in any form of education!) struggle with is knowing how to scaffold their instruction.  Scaffolding is one of those edu-babble terms that I mostly roll my eyes at but this one is actually useful.  Scaffolding instruction is tied up with lots of other issues - knowing when your child is struggling, knowing how much struggling is too much, knowing when to move them on to the next thing, and knowing when to help and when to stand back.  SWB deals with this in one of her lectures for purchase - I think it's the one on teaching your child to be an independent learner.  She talks about starting off sitting right next to the child to work, then moving on to standing up for brief periods but still staying in the room, etc.  You get the picture.  That's actually scaffolding at work - she's just describing where you could be physically during the process.  You also need to know how to scaffold the actual instruction as well - if you're in the next room but still giving the kid the answers instead of having him/her struggling with the question a bit, you haven't really made them independent. ;)

 

Successful instruction (to me) means that we teach another person to do something they couldn't do before and in the end, if the instruction was successful, they are then able to do it (most of the time) by themselves without help.  As moms as well as teachers to our kids, I think part of the non-spectacular homeschool fails could be because - well - we help our kids too much.  We don't like to see them frustrated.  We don't like to see them struggling.  So we help.  We think we're doing a wonderful thing - we're right there next to our kids, we're involved, we're working together with them, it's the one-on-one that they wouldn't get in the public schools, and the student's feeling successful and happy.  Scaffolding instruction would say that yes - that's how you start teaching anything new.  And then you slowly start pulling away.  Don't answer questions immediately.  Try to guide the student to the answer.  Once they are comfortable doing the task with your guidance instead of direct help, give less guidance.  And then less.  And then less again.  The tough thing is knowing how quickly to pull away.  Too quickly is like putting your little one on a two-wheeled bike and then refusing to hold the seat after the first try.  Too slowly is like holding on to the seat for the first 5 years of bike riding so that they become convinced they can't balance on their own.  The other trick is that every student needs a different pace of scaffolding.  And even the same student may need a different scaffolding of the instruction for math than they do for Latin.  SWB also mentioned in another lecture (or maybe the same one - I need to listen again - I can't remember!) how to recognize if your student is just struggling or REALLY struggling.  I don't want to give it away 'cause I'm not SWB and it's not mine to give but I'll try to state it in a different way than she does. :)  A phrase that I ran across last year while teaching at the local college in the ed assistant program was "Don't step in front of the struggle."  I liked it but I modified to something I like better:

 

Don't step in front of productive struggle.

 

That's how you know if your child is struggling too much.  Or how you know when they need to stay on the topic you're doing or move on or even back up.  Or how you know how quickly you can pull away when you're scaffolding the instruction.  If the struggling is still producing something productive - the child is slowly working his/her way towards an answer or towards understanding even if it's with lots of whining and sighing ;) - then don't step in front of the struggle.  Wait before you toss in small bits of guidance.  If the struggling has devolved into something unproductive - emotional outbursts, complete meltdowns, refusal to work - then step in.  Back up if need be.  Move back to step 1 of scaffolding your instruction if that's what it takes.  If kids aren't used to having the help you're giving being scaffolded, beginning the scaffolding process is going to take a LOT of patience and will seem pretty rocky.  Attitudes will nose dive.  Tempers will flare - kids' and mom's.  The kids will probably fight it tooth and nail.  You'll be tempted to throw in the towel.  (How many cliches can I work in to this post?)  It will work.  It just takes time.  To quote something else DianeW88 said on homeschooling (she really is going to think I'm cyber-stalking her!):

"It takes time...lots of time. It is inconvenient. It's not always fun. It's expensive. It is mind numbing, physically exhausting, head bangingly frustrating and will suck out every ounce of energy, enthusiasm and joy you have in you at times. It is also the BEST decision I ever made in my life."

 

I know - it sounds exhausting.  It is. :(  And, honestly, teachers in the public or private school systems don't have the luxury of one-on-one teacher/pupil ratios or the luxury of being able to work at each student's own pace to be able to pull this off with all students at all times.  But PS teachers probably don't love our kids like we do and, because of that, probably don't step in front of the struggle as often as we are prone to do.  I've always thought that teaching is part craft and part art - sure, you're taught the hows and whys during the ed degree but it's not until you get into the classroom that you really start to learn how to apply all those hows and whys in real life.  PS teachers have the luck?!? ;) of having lots of kids to practice on when they first start out in order to hone those skills.  As homeschool moms, our learning curve is much steeper with less opportunities to practice.  It's a massive challenge, no doubt.  It's not for the faint at heart and if a homeschooling mama (or even a prospective homeschooling mama) decides that they don't have enough energy, time, patience, money, etc. to pull off the challenge, there is absolutely, positively no shame in the kids entering PS or in outsourcing things.  I KNOW I don't have the energy, time, patience, or money (or skill!) to learn to surf or dance ballet or paint beautiful art work and I would hope no one would ever shame me for that. :)  We all have our own strengths - sometimes they're hidden strengths! - and we have to learn to work within our individual limitations in order to stay happy, fulfilled, and sane.

 

Bah - I think I'm just rambling now. LOL  If anyone is interested in more discussion on the idea of scaffolding instruction, maybe we can start a new thread on the Gen Ed board.  (Or maybe it's already been discussed and I completely missed it.  Doh.)  I was just thinking this was a different look at why else we might struggle with teaching our kids and why mamas with the best of intentions might feel like it's all getting away from them.  Thought it might give others some things to ponder.  If not, ignore completely. :D

[SarahW]

So what can homeschoolers do when we see a family where the parent is in over their heads (and realizes it, but has a whole litany of reasons for why it's OK) and the kids are way behind, but the parent is probably legally within the bounds of homeschooling in a low or no regulation/evaluation required state?  IS there anything we can/should do, besides answer questions when they're asked?

 

I don't know, is there a good way to say "hmm, I think your kids could handle more instruction?"

 

I belong to a very "inclusive" co-op, and a few months ago when I was at B&N I ran into a lady and her daughter who I knew from a few of the co-op events. We said hi, and as I was there to grab the summer book club form I casually asked if she was also doing it. "Oh, my daughter can't read" she said. Huh? Her daughter is around 10, maybe 9. I stammered a bit, then managed to say something about how I'm sure they'd accept audiobooks, because maybe the girl had LD's, idk. But the mom just shrugged, while her dd stood there looking uncomfortable. I had to go, so I just said bye and left.

 

I can't get the whole incident out of my mind, but I don't know how I could have handled it differently. I mean, maybe her dd does have LD's, but I can't think of a non-rude way to say "Oh, I'm so sorry, I didn't realize your child has LD's" even if the child is 10 and can't read. And should I have pushed the audiobooks more? I mean, I'm a bit of a snob when it comes to books-on-tape myself, but some really are great, maybe I could have talked them up more? I don't know. I just don't know. But I sometimes feel like I failed that girl a little bit.

 

Really, I think the best thing is if people are more upfront about what an adequate education entails. I was at a homeschool conference this summer where one presenter, on the last afternoon, dared to say that Apologia was "science-light." She heard all the shocked whispers in the crowd, and went on to point out the things about Apologia that made it so light. It was heartening to hear someone actually take a curriculum to task for its academics, but I also felt sorry for everyone there who had just laid down a lot of money at the conference for Apologia (at least 3 different vendors was selling it) thinking that it would be just great for their middle schooler with an interest in a science career. I wish the conference circuit would feature more speakers like that one, who actually worked to put homeschooled students into post-secondary education. But, meh, instead there's multiple sessions on how to cloth diaper.  :svengo:

[FaithManor]

SarahW, :grouphug:  :grouphug: :grouphug: I am so sorry. This kind of discussion must be rather triggering. UGH! 

 

What I see happening some is that homeschooling is not time consuming, and is rather fun up to about 5th grade if one doesn't have too many littles at home. All the field trips, all the fun fun work, it's a blast. But, there comes a time when the assignments get longer, the work is harder, and well...one can't fill the time with so much fun fun. Then within the religious community, there is a lot of pressure to continue "for religious and character" reasons, but if there are very many littles at home, it's really hard. It becomes easy to put off while dealing with the younger kids and the older ones, taught to read and do some arithmetic, are expected to now be independent. But, for every one kid who can figure out how to set up a ratio to solve a word problem, or diagram a complex sentence, or understand Newton's Laws, or read the Declaration of Independence and understand it all on his own, there are five that can't. They are hardwired to need interactive instruction. Mom or dad is too busy, too overwhelmed to provide it and some of that was because there wasn't a plan in place to make the homeschooling the top priority over the domestic stuff.

 

Really, if you're going to have middle schoolers and high schoolers at home and give them a decent education...if you really are going to do as well as the PS or better yet, exceed it, then the house isn't going to be tidy - oh, you'll get to disinfecting it and those kids are old enough to help for certain - b"ut things are going to get messy unless you really keep the amount of things owned down to a bare, bare minimum per person. Projects are going to be out on the table because at that level of education, projects do not get done in one day, experiments last more than one day, etc. Mom is going to spend 30-60 minutes every day with every middle schooler teaching math, or she's going to outsource it to an online program and then be supervising to make sure they do the work on time and understand it. She's going to teach 30- 60 minutes of grammar and vocabulary or writing and maybe more depending on the level of assignment that day. She's going to be discussing the book the child is reading and at a level that requires her to not also be teaching the 1st grader phonics in that same moment. She is going to be enthusiastically talking about scientific principles, and WHY the treaty of Versailles may have lead to some of the conflicts pre-WWII because guess what, the local 8th grade class is discussing it down the street (that is actually being discussed right now in a dear friend's 8th grader's history class), and all of that takes time and energy and hours. Dinner is not going to be seven courses no matter how much dad wants it to be. Dad might have to be involved in child care, housework, dinner making, errand running, etc. While a lot of us here have spouses who do this, mine certainly does, in many of the homes I've observed neglecting the education of older students, dad is not involved in this. The family tends to ascribe to a "woman's work" ideal, and expect full time homemaking, and maintenance, and errand running, and church volunteering,  AND full time homeschooling. Since there aren't enough hours in a day to pull it all off at the upper level, the older kids get left behind.

I am so glad that you forged ahead! That's really a testament to what it means to rise above. I'm so glad that the resources were available to you to move forward. My biggest concern is for kids for whom those resources are actively blocked. That scares me.

 

Angsty...that describes me! I have angst. I have disquiet. I know "it" when I see it, and it makes me queasy for the children. I am not certain what can be done about it without addressing where does religious liberty end and neglect begin...where is the balance of parental rights to child rights, etc. I do know that I have recently quoted to a mother inquiring about homeschooling while indicating she wasn't inclined to do much but was not interested in enrolling her 12 year old in school, the Michigan Homeschool Statute and the merit diploma curriculum requirements. I handed her the website to check out the GED subject material, and samples of other state's high school exit exams. I added in some employment statistics, and referred her to two friends who teach in PS. One is a high school math teacher, and one is a middle school science teacher. I wanted her to hear them field some questions about what their students are doing each day. They'll be the first to express savage angst about their jobs, but yet, despite that, those kids are doing more than her child is doing by leaps and bounds which is very, very sad when one thinks about it. I hope that between being faced with the fact that what she is doing is not better than the PS, and what the state law actually is, she will either buy some curriculum and start accomplishing it with her child, or enroll the child in school before he is so far behind that he ends up being in a restricted special ed classroom, or he ends up unemployable. She had an easy time teaching him to read and to do basic arithmetic and writing. I don't believe from what she describes that he has any learning disabilities.

 

The main thing is probably that homeschoolers at large need to get the PR out there that "anything is better than the PS" is a false message, and that most states do have guidelines and laws that should be followed. Instead of those that are getting the job done hiding out because of our fear of trampling someone else's religious rights, we probably need to be more open about employment, continuing education, etc. and sing a message that kids are done a serious disservice when they are un-educated. I think we need to be completely honest about how much work it is to homeschool at the upper levels, and counter the message that one is a lesser mother, lesser father, lesser Christian, lesser person for choosing school at some point if one is not able to do homeschooling decently anymore. However, for those that live within a community of believers in which it is considered a spiritual failing to place a child in school, it's going to be really, really hard to overcome that message because the need to belong, the need for acceptance, the need to not feel lesser than everyone else is very, very great. For this reason alone, I wish homeschool conventions were dominated by academics, education theory, and the like, and not about lifestyle, and a particular narrow worldview. It propagates the notion that the lifestyle is almost more important than the actual learning. It makes admitting there is a problem and looking for ways to solve it, shameful because the lifestyle is paramount.

Other than that, I have no good answers to the problem. I just get mentally queasy!

 

[maize]

I think one thing we can do in our local and online communities is to work to de-stigmatize the decision to send a child to school or to enroll them in a virtual charter school. 

 

One way in which the homeschooling population has changed over the past couple of decades is the growth of homeschooling as an individual educational choice not a religious or philosophical mandate. Many of the early homeschoolers were motivated by religious concerns (avoiding contaminating ideas etc.) or strongly held philosophical ideas (avoidance of government control, unschooling on principle, etc.) While these are still elements of the overall homeschooling population, I do not think they make up a majority these days. While many people list religion as a reason they homeschool it is (at least among those I know) more often just one reason among many and they would not automatically reject public or private schooling out of religious reasons. There are still some very prominent voices however advocating against any engagement with the public education system; I think there is room for thoughtful people to speak up in favor of making the best choice for each child dependent on the child's and the family's needs, not the philosophies of outside authorities who have no more knowledge of your individual circumstances and needs than does the federal or state government.

 

Among the homeschoolers I know, many do not continue pure homeschooling after the elementary years. Most high schoolers I know are enrolled at least part time in either brick and mortar public schools or virtual charter schools (in my state this includes options which allow the parents/students to choose their own curricula). We still hear quite often however from ideological homeschoolers who accuse those who use the public options of not really homeschooling, buying in to government propaganda, selling their souls for a financial benefit, etc.. From my perspective, any option that helps a family tailor the education of a child to that child's needs is a legitimate resource to draw on. I have a strong personal preference for independent homeschooling because I dislike jumping through hoops and meeting outside requirements, but I have enrolled my children more than once in flexible charter school options because they make available to me better resources to put towards educating my family. As my older children approach junior high age I am also starting to explore part time enrollment opportunities available through neighborhood and charter schools. I am happy to defend these options on the local homeschool lists, and would willingly advocate for them at the state level if needed. 

[Orthodox6]

So what can homeschoolers do when we see a family where the parent is in over their heads (and realizes it, but has a whole litany of reasons for why it's OK) and the kids are way behind, but the parent is probably legally within the bounds of homeschooling in a low or no regulation/evaluation required state?  IS there anything we can/should do, besides answer questions when they're asked?

 

There is nothing that we can do.  If you are a praying person, then pray for the parents and the children.  Answer questions if they are asked, but don't volunteer constructive criticism unless it is requested.

 

Whatever problems result in the future as a result of the parents' choices, it is not your fault, but theirs and their children's.  

 

My feelings may well run counter to what I have typed -- (and truthfully, they do, for I have known situations) -- but detached, rational reflection leads to my conviction that what you describe is a "hands off" situation.  If a child from such a family were to come to me for help, I would have to swallow hard, and proceed with great caution, because I could land in a minefield. 

[SarahW]

Dicentra, I see what you are saying and it is GREAT. I like it, I really do.

 

But it is the opposite is what is needed in these situations.

 

In these situations "independent learning" is what is used to describe the middle school neglect. That's what happened in my situation. When people would ask "how do you teach them?" my mother would exclaim "I don't! Man, they read so much, they read better than I do! I hardly have to do anything, they do it all on their own!" Yeah, I read, I sat in my room and mostly read Babysitters Club all day long. I could read much higher quality literature, I mean, when we first started homeschooling when I was in K, I was reading the KJV Bible out loud everyday (that was the first "curriculum" when my mother didn't know what else to do). I still feel quite comfortable with that style of language, but there was nothing done with it. No scaffolding, true, but no understanding that one is supposed to scaffold up from there, and where you can take it.

 

While after a certain age you don't need to read the directions, or read all lit out loud, so yes, it is more independent than with a 1st grader, at the same time there needs to be even more involvement. More discussion of lit, more analysis of research papers, more involved science. This can not all be independent. Goodness, teenagers are (largely) capable of carrying on a somewhat-logical discussion, why shunt that to the side and expect them to complete all their work quietly in their room? People have talked to tween/teen homeschoolers, and found that most of them found their quiet days boring and mind-numbing, and this was among homeschoolers who were not "lax" in any way.

 

Maybe my own emotions color this, but this is something I feel passionate about. 

 

 

Faith - thank you for your kind words, yes, this is rather triggering for me. I'd say more, but I have to go play with my kids. 

[LMD]

Thanks so much for this thread - it's given me a needed kick up the butt.

 

I wanted to address something that's been mentioned a couple of times.  I think there is almost a bait and switch thing that happens.  When you begin to explore homeschooling, you're sold on the lifestyle.  You see the rosy, fun, early elementary side where school is done in a couple of hours and so much time is left for little siblings, excursions and fun.  It's rare that you see (or look for) people slogging along with middle-schoolers and up, I guess because they don't have as much time to be posting on blogs/forums!  There is very little discussion - unless you go looking for it - on what it truly takes to do this long term.  What exactly is the cost?  My oldest is in 4th now, this year has not been great.  I'm coming to terms with the fact that teaching requires x-amount of hours, and it has to be the priority if I'm going to do it to the standard I want.

 

But what I frequently hear are the feel-good supportive comments.  You're doing fine, it's better than school, it's a light year/season, they're learning so many important character/relational/family/spiritual lessons, they're picking up more than you think...  Many of which might be true, It is tough to keep the momentum going year after year.  Why are we afraid of lovingly saying to each other - it is tough, are you doing the job you envisaged, are you happy with how your homeschooling is going?  If not, how can I support you?