Article critical of homeschooling by Christian fundamentalists

[skimomma]

I have chewed on this question for years.  I am frequently questioned about homeschooling regulations (or lack there of) because we are the only family in our social circle who does it or even considers it a real option.

 

I live in a no report, no regulation state.  For selfish reasons, I am really happy that I do.  I do not personally know of anyone who is abusing this but I am sure like anything there are people who are falling through the cracks.

What I would be super-curious to know (and I suspect there has to be some data somewhere about this) is if there are significant differences in educational outcomes for homeschoolers in high vs. low regulation states.  My gut feeling is that there is not.

 

Because....

 

Educational neglect is just another form of child abuse.  Many children go through the public school system that cannot read or do basic math.  Sometimes that is the fault of the school.  More often (IMO) it is family circumstance and/or abuse.  Sometimes entire schools full of kids plagued by bad circumstances and/or abuse.  We have proven over recent history that try as we might we will never stamp out ALL child abuse or suffering.  I am sure in some cases, children of "errant" homeschoolers could benefit from being swooped up and taken to school.  But I doubt that the underlying issues would be solved and those children would still suffer from their circumstances, whether educationally or physically or emotionally or all of the above.

 

Does that mean we shouldn't try to solve these problems?  No.  But I don't think regulation, testing, or "swooping to the rescue" will do as much good as many believe.

 

Fortunately, unlike physical and emotional abuse, educational neglect can be reversed, even after a person reaches adulthood.  So, while I believe that "errant" homeschoolers do exist and I do think they suck, I think basic well-being should be the bigger focus.  The Susie that cannot do math is sad.  The Susie that is hungry every day, being beaten after school, AND can't do math needs food and protection before we worry about the math.  There are far too many Susie's out there, in and outside of school.

 

Since there are many kids falling through the abuse cracks IN school, I cannot see how making every homeschooling family jump through hoops of regulation is going to help anyone.  The people who don't care are not going to care about regulations.  Those of us who do are just going to have even more hassle to deal with.

[ErinE]

Sadie, I get what you're saying, but you're not in Texas, are you? Where there are absolutely zero accountability rules here? Don't you live in a country that at least affirms some ideal of a standard?Joanne is right, there exists here a breed of home schoolers who seem to have actual little use for anything resembling even a very basic core of competencies.

It's not just Texas. In the US, I've lived in several states while homeschooling, some with testing/portfolio requirements. The "educational neglect" subgroup exists even where there are reporting standards.

[KarenC]

What bothers me, is that this type of home schooling is STILL the general idea of home education in the public mind. At least where I live. There was a positive article about home schooling in the paper yesterday and the comments following just about broke my heart. People generalise from these home schoolers. This is the picture they have in their head of most of us.

I agree.  The stereotype makes me crazy.

[flyingiguana]

Lol, so I read the article finally. The homeschool watch list ?!!?! Give me a break. It's a legal way to educate your child/ren.  Back off!

 

If particular religious groups have particular issues warranting particular attention, write a story about the RELIGION>

 

There are so many things I want to critique about the article, but it's better for my blood pressure if I go and meditate now instead.

I was going to make a comment at the article site -- but I got sidetracked by reading the comments.  When I was there, they were discussing how the Amish should just go die.  Least, that was the impression I got.

 

Wow, there's a lot of wackos in comments sections.

 

So then I didn't want to be part of that group.  I didn't leave a comment at all. 

[flyingiguana]

If there should be oversight of homeschooling by a govt, then it would likely need to be framed in the context of the rights of the child -- what minimum education they would need to function in society.

 

A school system would likely be held to a higher standard as it's presumed to be educating an entire body of students for the good of the community (not only for the good of the child).

 

I was hearing something recently about the history of schools in the US -- about how schools were initially  conceived and funded by local communities, which is why we now have a system of local school boards and local funding.  However, in other countries (?) schools were set up and funded by federal govt (or the equivalent).  This is why the US is such a hodge podge of regulations and funding sources (mostly local) and may explain why there is such inequality in education quality. 

 

This would likely impact the view various countries had about homeschooling -- in the US, as it was developed by parents for their own children, there is much more of a sense that it is a family matter and govt shouldn't be involved as much in educational decisions.

 

If someone else knows a reference/link to what I'm thinking of here, feel free to fill me in on it.

 

This is also making me think of the truancy fines that have been big news in Britain lately: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/11020674/Number-of-parents-fined-for-term-time-holidays-soars-by-70-per-cent.html

On the one hand, I find it astonishing that some parents think they can take their kids out of school for a vacation just because the air fares are lower than.  On the other, I'm astonished that schools don't allow kids to leave for  very supportable reasons (family weddings and such).

[creekland]

Again, it depends on your state. I live in NY, a 'high reg' state. I also worked in human services, and the type of people you are describing are NOT homeschooling.  

 

PA is generally considered a high reg state... I'll agree that these folks are not homeschooling, but they claim it anyway.  Due to not getting enough of the hoops done, legal action is taken, but it can take a bit.

 

Not sure how true this is- the poorest parents here send kids to school for the free meals and free babysitting.

But if it's true, I honestly don't' think it's worse than the emotional manipulation and abuse.

 

Some do send them to school.  Others simply don't care and don't want to be bothered.  Some HATE school themselves and don't want anything to do with it.  Overall, it's a big minority of the population, just like those the in the OP.  But it certainly does exist and our school district employs people who are "lucky" enough to have to deal with it.

 

I also have only heard of one case here where someone with the kind of issues Creekland described was "homeschooling." I heard about her because her children were killed because the abuse and problems went way beyond and "homeschool" was a cover. It's soooo easy to send your kids to school in a city. They all walk. It's free, easy daycare. I've never heard of people homeschooling like that here.

 

If that's common anywhere, that makes me really sad. I also find it hard to believe... But again, this is why some data is needed.

 

With these folks, to be honest, homeschool is always a cover.

 

And we're rural.  Way lower than 10% of our kids walk to school.  ALL have convenient bus stops, but someone needs to get the kids there.

 

And it's not "common," but it's as "common" as others who pretend to homeschool where I live.

[Reefgazer]

I think the broader point of the article was to discuss the need to regulation/testing.  Not to say that that horse hasn't been beaten to death here, also, LOL, but the discussion on regulation/testing is a worthwhile one, IMO.

What good does it do on a forum where there are religious homeschoolers to post a clearly biased, inflammatory article? I just don't see the point of discussing it when one side is convinced they're right and the other is bound to be offended.

We homeschool for religious reasons and have a bunch of children. We're traditional in our theological views. But we're not like the article, and my husband's family wasn't either. So what is there to discuss? That it happens? That we have to defend ourselves against the accusation?

This just doesn't end well or without hurt feelings, and I wonder why the OP thinks posting about it bears discussing.

Ugh.

 

[Reefgazer]

I think the "homeschool watch list" phrase was very inflammatory.  I would not be opposed to some minimum level of achievement expectations, but I would expect the same oversight of public and privately schooled children.  There would also have to be some provisions for genuinely and seriously disabled kids (i.e., children with Down syndrome) and not holding them to the same level of expectations for grade level.

This suggestion by one woman former homeschooler stood out to me, especially since it would apply to all homeschoolers, not just those who may be more prone to educational neglect because of religious or philosophical beliefs:

 

ETA: I just read the sticky note and have deleted the text that I quoted from the story. It was from the section near the end of the article in which Palmer discusses a "homeschool watch list" and the need for the government to make sure every child gets an appropriate education.

 

This raises the question: If the government can't ensure that kids who attend public school get an education appropriate to their age and ability—and I doubt anyone would argue that PS students don't fall through the cracks regularly—how can they do so for homeschoolers? Educational neglect is a problem (and it's hardly limited to fundamentalist homeschoolers), but "more government oversight" is a simplistic solution.

 

[umsami]

FL is weird (I know, you knew that already. ;)).  In theory, it has some regulations.  You either need a portfolio review by a licensed teacher, a nationally recognized achievement test administered by a licensed teacher, or the state exam (which used to be called the FCAT).   BUT, you can also enroll in an umbrella school and that will cover you.  Basically all they require (at least the ones I've checked  out) is attendance.  So I can teach my DC nothing, but as long as I say we schooled 180 days per year, I'm fine.

[BlsdMama]

A topic for discussion -- it it hasn't been discussed too much already.

 

" How Christian fundamentalist homeschooling damages children

The religious right touts homeschooling as a viable educational alternative. Parents, grads tell a different story "

 

http://www.salon.com/2014/09/10/how_christian_fundamentalist_homeschooling_damages_children_partner/

 

I'm going to skip reading it because, frankly, I'm betting it's more of the same, different title.

 

My question is this:

 

When will the authors realize that this  TYPE of EXTREME fundamentalism of NOT actually educating, holding back children, sequestering daughters, and overbearing Dads, is NOT representative of the norm.

 

 I consider our family fundamentalist Christians. 

fundamentalism

 

[fuhn-duh-men-tl-iz-uh m]

• Examples
• Word Origin

noun

1.

(sometimes initial capital letter) a movement in American Protestantism that arose in the early part of the 20th century in reaction to modernism and that stresses the infallibility of the Bible not only in matters of faith and morals but also as a literal historical record, holding as essential to Christian faith belief in such doctrines as the creation of the world, the virgin birth, physical resurrection, atonement by the sacrificial death of Christ, and the Second Coming.

2.

the beliefs held by those in this movement.

3.

strict adherence to any set of basic ideas or principles:

the fundamentalism of the extreme conservatives.

 

 

 

And yet our DD is going to college, our children are being educated.  Why? Because an educated well spoken, loving, engaged Christian makes for a better "spreader" of the gospel. We are not to  be OF the world, but we're sure to be IN IT and coming into contact with others.

 

The articles that are anti- this type of family are inflammatory and divisive simply because I REALLY don't believe that many families exist that don't educate their children.  I believe they are the very rare majority.  So instead it serves to flame up everyone in an anti-Christian, anti-homeschooling frenzy.  Hooray for them.  (Insert deadpan sarcasm.)

 

[chiguirre]

In public school, a child who was not reading by age 8 would qualify for special education. So would kids who could barely multiply at age 12. Whether or not they were nice or socialized or of good moral character would not absolve the public schools of the responsibility of educating them to state standards. So how/when/ why should homeschools be absolved of that same responsibility? Should state standards be applicable to hsers or not? If not, then each state needs to come up with its own definition of neglect as it pertains to hsing if they want to monitor it.

 

Obviously I am in favor of increased accountability and of obtaining hard data on homeschoolers. :D

In ps, the kid wouldn't necessarily be brought up to level, though. They'd be offered intervention, but if they don't respond they stay behind. Then, they'd be placed in a contained classroom out of the mainstream (at least once they're in middle school in my district).

[redsquirrel]

I think the "homeschool watch list" phrase was very inflammatory.  I would not be opposed to some minimum level of achievement expectations, but I would expect the same oversight of public and privately schooled children.  There would also have to be some provisions for genuinely and seriously disabled kids (i.e., children with Down syndrome) and not holding them to the same level of expectations for grade level.

 

That is absolutely possible. My younger son, who has some minor challenges, has an IEP..or it is called something else because he is homeschooled, but it is the equivalent to an IEP. I take him to the public school where he gets the same services he would get if he were attending the school. I know that in some states homeschooled students with SE needs are not entitled to the same services as public school kids, but that is not the case in my state. It doesn't mean it is easy in every district though. I happen to live in a district that is easy to work with. I also have testing conditions for him and several other things that our SE liason wisely insisted on including on the chance that he ever ends up in public school. It's things like he gets a slant board for writing and a scribe if requested etc. If he were to attend school they would have to provide all those things.

 

I had a friend who did homeschool her child who had Downs syndrome, but she eventually decided that he was better served being taught with his peers and teachers who had more experience teaching kids like her son. But, she was able to make the regulations work for her. They did not prevent her from homeschooling for several years.

[Reefgazer]

I'm not homeschooling in NY, but we have a house there and I keep up with homeschooling groups in case we move back there in a bit.  Honestly, the testing standards, even for NY, are pretty low.  A bright kid with little education could meet them, because more rigorous options, like the Regents and evaluation aren't mandatory.  And those IHIPs and quarterly reports can be cut-and-pasted from online support groups (where samples are posted) in under a minute.  In the county where our house is located, the family was under the radar for many years without the state taking notice (I'm sure you're aware of that case).

Again, it depends on your state. I live in NY, a 'high reg' state. I also worked in human services, and the type of people you are describing are NOT homeschooling. Are they sending their kids to school? Maybe not, but often people who are living in those circumstances have lots of service providers in their lives and it is difficult for them to fly under the radar. And when kids are very young it is easier for users to get them to school some of the time. School is free day care after all. Plus there is also free breakfast and lunch, etc.

 

When the kids get older and more able to fend for themselves yes, lots of people stop working so hard to get their kids to school. But, if you live in a 'high reg' state, then you are not hiding under the guise of homeschooling. There is the yearly plan, the four quarterly reports,  the end of year testing or a yearly review done by the parent or a certified teacher. It's not something you can fudge. It is hardly onerous, but your kid can't just disappear into the nether to be forgotten by the system. So, are some parents flat out allowing their kids to be tuant? Yep, they sure are. But at least in this state, they don't get mixed in with the homeschoolers.  Do I know some legal homeschoolers who I think aren't doing a great job with academics? Yep, I do. But they have some accountability. I have known families who told me their homeschool was on 'academic probation' by the state. If their kids test scores didn't come up they would no longer be able to homeschool and they would have to show they had made alternative arrangements for their kids. Honestly, those tests are so easy, I didn't think it would be possible to score poorly, but I guess not. 

 

[Farrar]

To me, people using homeschooling as a cover are not homeschoolers. They're people using homeschooling as a cover. And that's different from people who are intentionally homeschooling - whether they're unschoolers or religious homeschoolers or whatever - who are practicing educational neglect because they believe in it for some reason - whether it's because they believe children should learn themselves and not be taught or because they believe women should not be educated so they can be better wives or what. It's coming from a place of belief (however misguided) as opposed to using "homeschooling" as a convenient reason that a child might not be in school where their bruises might be seen.

[Joanne]

To me, people using homeschooling as a cover are not homeschoolers. They're people using homeschooling as a cover. And that's different from people who are intentionally homeschooling - whether they're unschoolers or religious homeschoolers or whatever - who are practicing educational neglect because they believe in it for some reason - whether it's because they believe children should learn themselves and not be taught or because they believe women should not be educated so they can be better wives or what. It's coming from a place of belief (however misguided) as opposed to using "homeschooling" as a convenient reason that a child might not be in school where their bruises might be seen.

 

The people *I* am talking about are intentional homeschoolers; they identify as homeschoolers, often belong to homeschooling groups and activities, and are intentional part of the larger homeschooling community.

 

I am not speaking about those using "homeschooling" as a cover, but about people who have missed the mark in terms of execution of an adequate education.

 

I do not know what percentage of homeschoolers comprise that group, but I believe it is larger than "homeschoolers" as a group admit but probably smaller than those critical of homeschooling tend to believe (each group has some selective bias going on.)

 

[BlsdMama]

To me, people using homeschooling as a cover are not homeschoolers. They're people using homeschooling as a cover. And that's different from people who are intentionally homeschooling - whether they're unschoolers or religious homeschoolers or whatever - who are practicing educational neglect because they believe in it for some reason - whether it's because they believe children should learn themselves and not be taught or because they believe women should not be educated so they can be better wives or what. It's coming from a place of belief (however misguided) as opposed to using "homeschooling" as a convenient reason that a child might not be in school where their bruises might be seen.

 

And so at the end of the day does that make this new fad of freaking out on fundamental Christians about homeschooling, about Christianity, or about abuse.

 

I wish they wouldn't tie the three together.

 

Abusers are abusers.  They legitimize their abuse under some kind of umbrella.  It has no more to do about Christianity or homeschooling than a man who beats the tar out of his wife and makes some lame excuse about submission or that she's just plain aggravating.  In the end his abuse is his choice - not about a belief system at all IMO.

 

And they are angry or resentful (as they should be I suppose) but then they blame a belief or a system or a religion or homeschooling law when really, those are just straw men.

 

Abuse is abuse.  Homeschoolers doesn't equal abuse but abusers might homeschool.   However,  I don't want the general society to think Conservative Christian Homeschooler EQUALS Abuser and that's what this glut of recent articles seems to suggest.  :(

[Mimm]

I'm in favor of standards and accountability for homeschooling. But, oversight should be performed by a state home schooling board, that is run by advocates, and also are themselves expert in some measurable way. Sort of like how in Texas, homebirth midwives answer to the Midwifery board--NOT the state medical board.

 

Public schools answer to their respective boards of education, but this doesn't qualify them to police home schooling, which is frequently outside school officials' framework. And frankly, in Texas at least, they do a poor job of keeping their own house in order.

 

However, that does not preclude the establishment of a professional board of home schooling educators and advocates. Yes, it's still not perfect, but frankly, there should be some objective standards. JMO.

 

Yep, I agree with this. I wouldn't mind higher accountability but not from an entity that is itself guilty of educational neglect all too often.

 

What happens in a situation where a homeschooler is guilty of neglect? The child is put in a public school? What if that school serves him no better than he was being served at home? Does the parent then have the right to hold the school accountable for educational neglect? A parent should have right to decide what's best for the child, but the child's right to a decent education should trump the rights of the parents to decide that isn't important but what if a decent education isn't available to him? I'm thinking of dangerous under funded inner city schools and single working moms without the resources to homeschool. Or thinking of learning/emotional problems that prevent a classroom environment from being effective for a child, and a parent who is simply trying to give the child time to overcome them. Or a bullying situation that makes school emotionally damaging to him to the point where the parent has decided that even their lackluster efforts at home are better for the child. Or a profoundly gifted child that doesn't belong at the school or home that is available to him?

 

Sometimes public school is the answer when homeschooling is failing. But sometimes it's not, and making blanket rules that force children into public school risks harming as many children as you might "save" from negligent parents. In other words, I think we need to be very careful when we call for more laws, more oversight, more government involvement. There may be unintended consequences.

[Seasider]

Aeleydd, if your proposition could be executed purely, I'd think it good. But there's no guarantee that the deck (ie, assemblage of board members) wouldn't get stacked by one or the other end of educational philosophy (or a bunch at one of the many possible reasonable points along the spectrum).

 

I do agree that it should be at the state level. I also have witnesses educational neglect and think that someone/some entity with authority and an attitude of assistance (rather than persecution) would have been beneficial to the helpless children.

[Mrs. Tharp]

In ps, the kid wouldn't necessarily be brought up to level, though. They'd be offered intervention, but if they don't respond they stay behind. Then, they'd be placed in a contained classroom out of the mainstream (at least once they're in middle school in my district).

 

It's more complicated than this. A normal child who was years behind academically would go into special ed. because they would likely qualify for specialized instruction to be able to catch up. This would be a general education placement with "pull-outs" to a resource room for the 3 Rs. The child would be put on an IEP with goals for remediation, to get the child up to grade level asap.  If the child did not meet their goals within the stated time frame, the school would need to provide a reason for it, and modify the IEP accordingly. By law, a child can NEVER be moved from a mainstream educational setting into a self contained classroom, away from NT peers, unless the school can demonstrate, with evidence/evaluations etc., that their needs can only be met in the more restrictive setting. A developmentally normal child who was simply "not responding" would never receive such a placement

 

My point was to compare the current level of accountability of public schools to that of homeschools and to point out how children with the described level of knowledge would be perceived within the ps system.

[maize]

I'm in favor of standards and accountability for homeschooling. But, oversight should be performed by a state home schooling board, that is run by advocates, and also are themselves expert in some measurable way. Sort of like how in Texas, homebirth midwives answer to the Midwifery board--NOT the state medical board.

 

Public schools answer to their respective boards of education, but this doesn't qualify them to police home schooling, which is frequently outside school officials' framework. And frankly, in Texas at least, they do a poor job of keeping their own house in order.

 

However, that does not preclude the establishment of a professional board of home schooling educators and advocates. Yes, it's still not perfect, but frankly, there should be some objective standards. JMO.

I kind of like this idea; homeschool associations setting up their own certification boards. If they developed reputable standards and practices, state governments that feel a need to regulate home schooling in some way could offer the option of homeschooling families either certifying themselves through a reputable homeschool board OR meeting standards established by the state (could be testing, portfolios, etc.)

[at the beach]

I've not read every reply. 

 

Palmer says that one can do homeschooling right if one is very careful. She then says most homeschoolers are woefully lacking in every area. http://www.salon.com/2014/09/10/how_christian_fundamentalist_homeschooling_damages_children_partner/

 

You can only manage to homeschool if you are VERY careful? MOST homeschoolers are lacking in every area? :001_rolleyes:

 

 

[Mrs. Tharp]

The Amish did something similar starting in the 1950s when they began to withdraw from mainstream education and create their own schools. At first, they were closely monitored, but over time, as the Amish proved they could regulate themselves well, with excellent results for their students, the state DOEs eased off. Part of this is because the Amish mostly welcome state testing.

[creekland]

 MOST homeschoolers are lacking in every area? :001_rolleyes:

 

Someone should direct her to our high school & college board threads with acceptances, scholarships (like the recent NMSF results that just came out, but others too), & brags.  ;)

 

We are most definitely lacking in every area!   :lol:

[Murphy101]

I didn't even bother to read it.

 

Because I'm just not caring what other religion a person has who home schools.

 

These things tend to boil down to this attitude:

 

I strongly disagree with ____ religious beliefs/or other philosophy and thus I think "those" people shouldn't be allowed to home school or not allowed to do so without tremendous oversight to be sure they aren't actually passing that stuff on to their kids.

 

Well I say no to that.

 

If they aren't beating their kids, then I think everyone should mind their own business. (ETA: This statement is a ridiculously nutshell statement and is not all-encompassing of my opinion on every scenario.)

 

And when government schools can be held more accountable, I'll at least consider they might have a slim chance of doing the same with people who don't even attend their schools.

 

In the mean time?

 

This is the same fear mongering complaint home schoolers have heard for decades.

 

I do think there are poorly educated people in every social/economic/cultural demographic. I tend to think pushing policy based on the minority worst of any group or situation to be bad policy making though.

[FaithManor]

It's a very complex problem. My experience - obviously not a statistical study of anything just anecdotal - has been that some families in the community (we've met them through 4-H and at various times their kids have been a part of our science club and their parents were open about their homeschooling choices because they figured out that we homeschool as well) were for the most part at least doing what I would call a minimum through the elementary years. This would mean a math curriculum that appeared to be completed on a fairly regular basis, rudimentary readings skills...usually phonics through say 2nd grade or something like that, some handwriting, and then some English type program. This usually was pursued until the end of 5th grade. Sometime in 6th grade, the work got a lot harder for the parents who were not particularly well prepped nor interested in prepping themselves or hiring tutors. This was especially true of math. Often times though it also included English if they were attempting to use a course like Abeka which gets a lot tougher in middle school, seriously more difficult in a short period of time. The fun and easy workbooks that were so cheap seemed to end at 5th grade, curriculum labeled for middle school became more complicated than they anticipated. They also due to religious views often became very uncomfortable with the level of reading material because of the moral topics covered, and well not the fun, innocent fantasy world of elementary school. They didn't like their options for literature, didn't like the nitty gritty of history or science at that level, the emotionally difficult topics, and by the time they hit converting fractions to percentages, setting up ratios to solve word problems, solving for an unknown angle based on the measurements of one angle requiring the student to remember supplementary and complementary angle definitions in order to solve the equation, diagramming complex sentences, discussing the causes of WWI, and converting between Farenheit and Celsius in science or discussing Newton's Laws, WHAMO it wasn't easy anymore! This is by their OWN admission to us. They did not appreciate their easy homeschooling days being over, and were not interested in getting up to speed on these topics, dusting off their skills (maybe a few never had those skills to begin with - don't really know about that), and pouring over the books, making lesson plans, and directly teaching for the better part of the day. It then became the exclusive responsibility of their child to figure it out for him or herself, and if it never got done, it never got done.

 

As a result, when we've had middle school and high school meetings within 4-H for the purpose of doing more difficult science projects (we require properly completed lab notes for these), they quit. It was fun when they were little and could do the easy stuff. We would have been more than willing to hand hold them through the scientific method, through the math, writing the hypothesis, creating the experiment, collecting the data, and forming a conclusion...that's what we are there for after all...but once it was hard, they quit. The parents pretty much admitted that this is what happens at home. If the curriculum is hard, they quit. Thus the student spends 7th grade through the age of 18 basically spinning wheels, and due to fears about literature, rarely reads anything above a 7th grade level except the Bible, and frankly, I have to wonder how much of that they can digest if their comprehension level is never challenged on other fronts. At about 18, knowing their kid hasn't earned anything remotely resembling a diploma, they are sent to GED study classes, and then take the GED. Of the 14 students who were homeschooled and over the years quit the club when the projects became more difficult, 13 have failed the GED the first time according to their parents, and directly from the horses' mouth, of those 13, 9 had to take it a third time in order to pass.

 

The huge problem in this community is that a GED is a ticket to unemployability. Employers really discriminate against it, and many have right there on the applications, "Must have a high school diploma. Homeschoolers must submit a transcript if they do not have community college credits. GED is not accepted".

 

It is a rough, rough situation for these kids.

 

So, from my perspective, in these cases, educational neglect has taken place. These kids are neurotypical 18 year olds who are unemployable. Failing the GED more than once is a huge indicator that from 6th grade forward, the child was rather educationally feral! The reading level of the Michigan GED is 9th grade. No algebra is tested, just basic arithmetic and consumer math. The new version has social studies and science. These are kids who did not complete middle school level history or science and did not read higher level literature by their parents own admission are likely not capable of passing these new sections.  I doubt that the science section is at all intensive, but on the other hand, since 7th and 8th grade math books are where more intensive work at reading and interpreting graphs and data begins, it stands to reason if the 6th grade math book is about as far as the student progressed, they probably aren't going to do well in the science section.

 

As one mother told me, "I figure if he is reading a lot. He is learning." Me: "What is he reading?" Her: "Oh, joke books, the Bible, the Chronicles of Narnia, Swiss Family Robinson, How to Train a Dragon, Hardy Boys, and GH Henty. He really can't get enough of Hardy Boys."

 

"What is he doing for math and science?" Her: "He watches Mythbusters and he cooks, bakes, and measures things around the house."

 

:svengo:

 

So there comes a time in these families when they do not effectively unschool (I've seen that done well and it's rather time and planning intensive for the parents) nor do they school at home in a capacity that is progressing the education. Given that this does not even take them to the level of the 9th grade equivalency on the GED and the fact that it is a well known fact that the GED is rejected regularly around here, I consider that educational neglect.

 

I think that for the most part, there probably aren't very many parents who are going to hang around on a classical homeschooling board if they don't care about their kids' educations. Maybe there will be one or two trolling through every once and while, curious about what we are doing, and completely uninterested in progressing their own children's educations. But, I suspect this would be fairly rare and may be one reason that some are uncomfortable discussing it. For many of you, it will be outside the bounds of your personal experience. You are hanging out with people who are educating their kids. You are hanging out with people who will not be homeschooling for 7th-12th grade unless they feel they can handle it. You are hanging out with people that will buy video lectures, sign up for online classes, hire a tutor, use the community college, whatever it takes if a subject becomes more than you can manage. So, you aren't aware of the use of homeschooling as a cover for not educating children. But, unfortunately it is out there. These kids do not show up in the college statistics on homeschoolers that MSU, U of MI, MI Tech, and other schools keep because it's self selecting. If you aren't capable of passing the GED test, you aren't applying to MSU for biology or whatever. You just aren't. You aren't taking the ACT. So, the only entities in Michigan that are kind of tracking the progress of homeschoolers are only tracking the ones whose parents educated them and applied to these tier 1 schools. Of course colleges in Michigan love homeschoolers! That's because they only see one kind, and probably, that would be fairly representative of mainstream homeschooling where the majority of parents care about their kids educations enough to really apply themselves to it. They aren't seeing the low end of the bell curve, the extreme, the educational neglect low. Amish kids, most of the more extreme Mennonite community, ATI kids, Vision Forum....they aren't applying to Michigan State, or any other accredited institution, and most of them aren't applying to trade school or community college either. If you aren't volunteering in some educational organization such as 4-H, scouts, community outreach, etc., you may be blissfully unaware that this problem exists. I would imagine that for the most part, the State Board of Education is completely unaware of it as well.

 

People often cite the ACT average for high schoolers which usually runs in most states two points above the state average as proof that homeschooling is so effective. Well, it's effective for the kids who have parents who are signing them up for the ACT because those parents wouldn't be signing them up if they were against educating them to that level. It's self selecting. So, when one quotes those statistics, it needs to be prefaced with "This is the 2014 average for college bound homeschool students". That's a subset of homeschoolers. Possibly a decent size subset, but really not representative of homeschooling in general. Many of the students who are well home educated are also at trade schools that had different entrance exams, or at the CC using dual enrollment and again, took the Compass exam to get in instead of the ACT. So, their numbers are not averaged into the above. The subset that may be scoring very low, suffering true educational neglect are not likely to be accounted for in any capacity in a non reporting state such as Michigan. As someone said of NY, they may not be accounted for in that state either because the harder exams are not required.

 

Therefore, it's worth discussing because at some point, if the powers that be really begin attempted tracking of that subset, then it could result in laws that infringe greatly upon the rights of those that are getting the job done. We've seen it before. The majority ends up being treated like liars because of the small subset of those that lied. None of us appreciate that!

 

Creekland, while I've never personally known substance abusers who have used homeschooling as a guise for not making their children go to school (I've known the opposite....school is wonderful daycare because they don't want to deal with children while hung over all morning and half the afternoon), if that were a remotely common problem, then Yikes, I don't want to think about what laws could end up enacted to counter it.

[creekland]

Creekland, while I've never personally known substance abusers who have used homeschooling as a guise for not making their children go to school (I've known the opposite....school is wonderful daycare because they don't want to deal with children while hung over all morning and half the afternoon), if that were a remotely common problem, then Yikes, I don't want to think about what laws could end up enacted to counter it.

 

Those who use it here use it because it keeps the law off their backs a little bit longer - well, quite a bit longer as our reporting periods are annual and there are always "educators" who can be bought.

 

We get the daycare varieties too, of course.  It all depends upon what their feeling is about school and "the establishment."

 

I've seen the other types of homeschoolers you mention too - those who simply quit when something gets difficult.  They are not necessarily religious homeschoolers here.  They can be just those who diss school in general knowing a factory job is good enough for them, so good enough for their offspring.  They don't want their offspring getting snooty, after all.  This latter group, if their kids went to school, often sign papers letting them drop out at 17 after putting their time in.

 

But all of the above are quite the minority IMO.  They are a minority that keeps our admin and counselors in court way too often though.  It's not a "happened once" deal.  It happens multiple times per year.

[poppy]

And so at the end of the day does that make this new fad of freaking out on fundamental Christians about homeschooling, about Christianity, or about abuse.

 

I wish they wouldn't tie the three together.

 

Abusers are abusers.  They legitimize their abuse under some kind of umbrella.  It has no more to do about Christianity or homeschooling than a man who beats the tar out of his wife and makes some lame excuse about submission or that she's just plain aggravating.  In the end his abuse is his choice - not about a belief system at all IMO.

 

And they are angry or resentful (as they should be I suppose) but then they blame a belief or a system or a religion or homeschooling law when really, those are just straw men.

 

Abuse is abuse.  Homeschoolers doesn't equal abuse but abusers might homeschool.   However,  I don't want the general society to think Conservative Christian Homeschooler EQUALS Abuser and that's what this glut of recent articles seems to suggest.  :(

 

The reason there are articles like this is because survivors are working hard to get their stories out- to save other kids in the same situation.

The topic is abusive Christian homeschoolers.

There are other types of abusers, other types of Christians, other types of homeschooler- obviously.  I think that could do without saying.

 

But the religion, homeschooling, and abuse are linked for a certain subset of the population, and there are kids out there now suffering, and that's not right.  Getting defensive about it doesn't help anyone.

[redsquirrel]

I always refer to myself as "an Executive Homeschooler".  Whenever these threads about weirdo homeschoolers pop up I want to post this clip, so today I am just going to do it.

 

I got it from my beloved Eddie Izzard.  Warning, for adult ears only. There are at least 2 f-bombs in this clip and it is only 60 seconds long, lol

 

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/6npfjWoBCRM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[kiwi3129]

In ps, the kid wouldn't necessarily be brought up to level, though. They'd be offered intervention, but if they don't respond they stay behind. Then, they'd be placed in a contained classroom out of the mainstream (at least once they're in middle school in my district).

 

This is exactly why we DO home school.  DD is almost 11, has a mild intellectual disability, and is just beginning to read.  All of her academic skills fall in the 5- to 7-year-old range.  If she were still in public school she would be in 5th grade.  Even in a special ed class, they wouldn't even be trying to teach her to read anymore.  I really think in time she will be able to read at close to a functional level -- but she may be 18 before we get there.

 

This conversation is what worries me all the time.  I fear that people at church or other places who find out that dd can't read, write, etc. will automatically assume that it is because I home school and don't teach her anything.  This couldn't be further from the truth.  We have had her in speech-language and occupation therapies for years.  I work with her far more than she would get worked with in school.  (I know from experience.  She was in three years of developmental preschool and a kindergarten inclusion class in public school).

 

I know this thread is in response to the linked article about fundamentalist home schoolers.  I have just learned from our own experience that you can't really look at the results and always know exactly what is going on.  And having someone in some governmental agency making judgments about my daughter's progress or lack of progress would really concern me.  Just my two cents worth!

 

[Mrs. Tharp]

Just for clarification to an above post, the Amish and Mennonites don't homeschool as a rule. They send their kids to private, parochial, and in a few cases, public schools. I used them as an example because they had to fight very hard for the right to establish their own schools and succeeded mostly because well, they took their cause to the Supreme Court and won, but also because they could demonstrate that they were educating their children to state standards, or at any rate, to what individual states deemed an acceptable level.

 

The point being, if, like the Amish, homeschoolers can regulate themselves effectively, other agencies will be less likely to step in and do it for them.

 

 

We need data!!!!!!

[mom2scouts]

I'm finding the conversation here fascinating, especially in regards to different areas.  I live in a University community where education is highly valued.  Many of the homeschoolers I know have a parent that works at the University.  My experience is that homeschooled children are very well educated and when I attend events with both PS and homeschooled children, the homeschooled children usually stand out as more academically advanced.  When hs students move into our "excellent with distinction" high school, they often graduate at the top of the class.

 

Despite my overall good experience,  I did encounter a religious homeschool mom who told me her sister never registered with the school district and the children weren't on the radar at all. I also met a woman who was the first and only person whose homeschooling I questioned.  She seemed mentally ill and/or mentally disabled and had two severely autistic children.  Things she said to me made me question her ability to teach them anything at all, let alone deal with their autism.

[Orthodox6]

IMO, a flimsy article. The agendum-fueled author is attacking a sub-type of Protestantism under the thin disguise of caring about children's education.

 

My own religious views are lightyears removed from those of the families attacked -- err, discussed -- in the article, yet I think the author's specious extrapolation-by-contrast (i.e. Yeah, i know of a few successful homeschooling families lost somewhere in the sea of overwhelmingly lousy families.) should be exposed.

 

FWIW, as well, the article appears in a quasi-tabloid publication -- not a type of source I seek out for useful information.

[Guest]

IMO, a flimsy article. The agendum-fueled author is attacking a sub-type of Protestantism under the thin disguise of caring about children's education.

 

 

 

Yup, that's "our Vyckie"; I'm kind of bummed that she's still getting so much attention for spewing out the same old same old.

[RegularMom]

So, after reading through all this, and mulling it all over, I'm sitting here thinking about all the little moments where I've dropped the ball over the years and vowing to really ramp up my efforts this year, LOL....  :001_rolleyes:

[Joanne]

I think that you need to be careful that when you have your professional hat on, you don't insinuate, consciously or unconsciously, that home schooling parents in general are somehow a) clueless and B) refusing to face facts about the homeschooling community in general. Especially on a homeschooling forum.

 

It's entirely possible to discuss the issue, and share your anecdotal and local data, however extensive, without doing that. Other people on these forums ( not me!) have considerable experience in homeschooling, in school-based education, in ATI etc and can manage to communicate their ideas in a way that doesn't accuse other homeschoolers of being complicit in neglect by refusing to see how much more of it there 'really' is.

 

 

Actually, since I do believe the homeschooling community to minimize and deny the percentage of educational neglect, I *can't* honor your paragraphs - although I never insinuated that we are clueless. I stated my perception up front, in my first post. The one in which I also criticized the OP's referenced post for offering a skewed reality. And, frankly, other than the fact that it is clearly bothering you, I don't understand why I can't discuss the issue as a former long term homeschooling mom who is also a professional with a wide range of experience and exposure. I have been courteous and followed board rules; I am not sure what the problem is other than you don't like my opinion on the topic. I am not even the only one in this thread who shares that opinion.

[Mrs Mungo]

The people *I* am talking about are intentional homeschoolers; they identify as homeschoolers, often belong to homeschooling groups and activities, and are intentional part of the larger homeschooling community.

 

I am not speaking about those using "homeschooling" as a cover, but about people who have missed the mark in terms of execution of an adequate education.

 

I do not know what percentage of homeschoolers comprise that group, but I believe it is larger than "homeschoolers" as a group admit but probably smaller than those critical of homeschooling tend to believe (each group has some selective bias going on.)

 

 

I completely agree that I have known people like this. 

 

BUT, I will also say that many, many kids in the public school system have similar issues with receiving inadequate educations. My eldest started college this year. On the first day her English teacher explained basic rules like, "you have to spell out y-o-u." 

[Joanne]

I completely agree that I have known people like this. 

 

BUT, I will also say that many, many kids in the public school system have similar issues with receiving inadequate educations. My eldest started college this year. On the first day her English teacher explained basic rules like, "you have to spell out y-o-u." 

 

 

Yes. My other posts in thread mention when I taught at Community College. You may remember my posts a year or so ago about a casual perspective on plagiarism, lack of knowledge on how to construct a paragraph (let alone an academic thesis, 5 paragraph essay....), poor organizational or study skills, and text language in formal assignments!

[Mrs Mungo]

Yes. My other posts in thread mention when I taught at Community College. You may remember my posts a year or so ago about a casual perspective on plagiarism, lack of knowledge on how to construct a paragraph (let alone an academic thesis, 5 paragraph essay....), poor organizational or study skills, and text language in formal assignments!

 

I definitely remember that! So, I guess that is why I have a hard time condemning homeschoolers as a group with regard to educational neglect when it is so rampant in the school system (and Texas is WAY better than Hawaii on that front). I talked in the other thread about handling a specific situation that I did feel was neglectful, and I did do something about it that helped the kids. But, I think someone would have to be actively preventing their kids from having access to education in order for me to contact a government official. 

[FaithManor]

Just for clarification to an above post, the Amish and Mennonites don't homeschool as a rule. They send their kids to private, parochial, and in a few cases, public schools. I used them as an example because they had to fight very hard for the right to establish their own schools and succeeded mostly because well, they took their cause to the Supreme Court and won, but also because they could demonstrate that they were educating their children to state standards, or at any rate, to what individual states deemed an acceptable level.

 

The point being, if, like the Amish, homeschoolers can regulate themselves effectively, other agencies will be less likely to step in and do it for them.

 

 

We need data!!!!!!

You are correct. They do not homeschool, they do however engage in deliberate, severe educational neglect as part of an extreme religion that seeks to keep offspring from leaving by keeping them ignorant and economically hampered.

 

They should not be allowed to have the boys miss as much as four months of the school year because they are needed on the farm. The local Mennonite school only goes to the 8th grade, and most of the kids do not attend further. Again, one cannot leave the sect if one cannot function on the outside. I do not understand the pass that they receive from the compliance laws as these children are citizens of the United States and as such, have the same federal and state rights and responsibilities as the other children who are citizens. They do not self regulate in this manner. Their schools do not meet even the most rudimentary academic standards of any public or private secular or parochial school in the area. They do deliberately keep their children ignorant in order to prevent them from holding an opinion or lifestyle counter to their religious sect. That's common the world over actually. But, I believe they violate the fundamental rights of the children who are citizens of this country and as such, they should be held to a higher standard. However, I admit this is not popular. It is why I brought it up as a reference point for what deliberate educational neglect from an extreme fundamental religion looks like. While the Mennonites in our community do more than the Amish, they do not do well. Boys are excused from school until November, and out again in April, and the religious holiday breaks are REALLLLLLLLY long. Rod and Staff is used to the 8th grade (but only Math, Bible, and English for 6th-8th grade. They stop science and social studies at that time and school does not continue. Some students are homeschooled through 10th grade Rod and Staff because their parents do intend for them to take the GED, however, I have not received the impression that this is common. The average of the school teacher is 16, and she is a product of the 8th grade education she received at that school. She is not capable of teaching more or doing better herself. Last year there were 30 children under 5th grade or about age 10 in the school. A daycare center cannot hire a 16 year old to take care of 30 youngsters. Yet, the law looks the other way on this based on religious liberty. This is however, again, a subset of Mennonites. Progressive Mennonites run their schools through high school or homeschool using with high school curriculum, some choosing to send their teens to other parochial schools and even PS.  Eastern Mennonite College and Goshen College are two Mennonite institutions that are accredited and even have licensed medical programs including the BSN. I think both schools have 30 or so majors, and a large number of their students are from Mennonite families...just a different subset from the local families here.

 

More than anything, I am worried about where this nation is going when we protect the celebration of ignorance. We cannot maintain a republic, a democratic form of government with an uneducated populace. However, I'm also rather libertarian as well so have no comfort zone with laws and regulations pertaining to this and especially since it seems like those who make these rules so often cannot see the forest through the trees and exhibit their own level of ignorance and bias that rather staggers the imagination! So, I don't know who I would want to define what educational neglect is and what should be done about it. But, I know that there are kids out there that are hurting because of it. I know that it is extraordinarily difficult for a child deliberately kept in the dark academically to break free of the religion of the parents if that is what they desire as an adult because they cannot survive outside of the sect, out of mum and dad's house, outside of daddy's business, if they do not have the skill set to make it "out there". I have personal qualms with that.

 

Really, what I desire is for parents who choose homeschooling as well as parents who do not, to want a good education for their kids. I want them to want that for their kids enough to fight for it. I want children to have the world opened to them. I want their futures to not be limited by lack of reading, writing, and math skills. I want parents to be involved enough to get in the trenches and not settle for what the PS gives now, nor quit when the going gets tough. I want for every neuro-typical 17 and 18 year old to be able to go to community college or trade school or paramedic school or whatever without taking remedial coursework and failing entrance exams.

 

I don't think most of this applies to children with special learning disabilities. But, I do think those children deserve the tenacity of parents and or teachers who will do their level best to help them come as far as they possibly can. I am unsettled by the "settling" if that makes any sense. Unsettled by the "settling" in the PS as well as some private schools and some homeschool families.

 

Of course I live in America. So HA....like that is ever going to happen! NOT. I do not have a lot of hope on that front!

[FaithManor]

BUT, I will also say that many, many kids in the public school system have similar issues with receiving inadequate educations. My eldest started college this year. On the first day her English teacher explained basic rules like, "you have to spell out y-o-u." 

:banghead:  :banghead: :banghead:  

 

This is why when the local community college calls and wants to know when I'm going to teach Fine Arts (Art and music appreciation), I say NEVER. Really, I think I would just not have the patience for the above.

 

:willy_nilly:

[maize]

Joanne, I think that parents are most often limited by their own background in the educational opportunities they are able to envision for their kids. It happens in religious and nonreligious families, among homeschoolers and traditional schoolers. Even among teachers.

 

I don't know how to fix that :(

[umsami]

I completely agree that I have known people like this. 

 

BUT, I will also say that many, many kids in the public school system have similar issues with receiving inadequate educations. My eldest started college this year. On the first day her English teacher explained basic rules like, "you have to spell out y-o-u." 

 

To be fair, this is part of the texting generation, rather than an inadequate education IMHO.  Should it have been addressed? Absolutely.  But it seems to be a common issue as it's been written about for years.  

 

http://www.suntimes.com/news/education/4600849-418/teachers-students-see-texting-lingo-popping-up-in-school-writing.html

 

"Sledz said the most common misuses by students are using a “i†as a stand-alone word, using only the letter “u†instead of the word “you,†using the letter “r†in place of the word “are†and not using periods where needed.

 

“It’s independent of intelligence,†Sledz said. “The problem is the inability to recognize it on your own. If I’m texting, I’ll shorten some words, but I know that isn’t appropriate for other writing. A lot of students don’t make that distinction.â€"

 

"

[Orthodox6]

Thought did not gel until now. I seriously doubt that most of us know much, if anything, about the greater (i.e. Across this very large United States) homeschooling population. I don't even call it a homeschooling "community" because we are too far-flung and too diverse. (That is another reason why sensationalist articles such as the one linked irritate many of us.).

 

A tautology now, but we know only what we know. Families who belong to homeschooling groups know about that membership. People who happen to know friends or relatives who homeschool, catch glimpses of those situations. Families barred from homeschooling groups, or who live where there are none, know their personal situations best. In short, my guess is that the most successful homeschooling families are taking excellent care of their own "home fires" and are not peering at other families through the jaundiced lenses of the media.

 

If I had not wandered past this WTM board a few years ago, i would know NOTHING about a plethora of topics, of resources, or of the lives of so varied a population of parents focused on their children's educations.

[at the beach]

Just for clarification to an above post, the Amish and Mennonites don't homeschool as a rule. They send their kids to private, parochial, and in a few cases, public schools. I used them as an example because they had to fight very hard for the right to establish their own schools and succeeded mostly because well, they took their cause to the Supreme Court and won, but also because they could demonstrate that they were educating their children to state standards, or at any rate, to what individual states deemed an acceptable level.

 

The point being, if, like the Amish, homeschoolers can regulate themselves effectively, other agencies will be less likely to step in and do it for them.

 

 

We need data!!!!!!

 

Wisonsin vs Yoder held that the Amish were not subject to compulsory education laws at the secondary level. The Supreme Court held that the values promoted in secondary schools were in serious conflict with the Amish religion. The state's interest in compelling a high school education did not outweigh the parents' right of religious freedom. Requiring the Amish to attend high school violated the First Amendment. Also, the state of Wisconsin took the case up to the Supreme Court, not the parents. The Wisconsin Supreme Court had ruled in favor of the parents. http://www.oyez.org/cases/1970-1979/1971/1971_70_110

 

The court stated that it is one thing to argue that children need high school education to live in modern society but it is another to demand that of people who live their lives separated from mainstream community and this is a "keystone of the Amish faith." 

https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/406/205/case.html

 

This kind of sounds like language some Christian fundamentalist homeschoolers might use in support of doing things the way they do them educationally. Some do separate themselves from mainstream society. Women have certain roles. So do they in the Amish community. The way I see it, this group who is complaining about their educations or lack thereof are, in fact, complaining about a religious way of life, and First Amendment protections come into play.

 

You indicate we need data on homeschoolers where we can show we are effectively regulating ourselves the way the Amish do. I'm not really aware of scientific data regarding the Amish and how well they regulate themselves. Are there any studies you are aware of? I'd be interested to read those. 

[maize]

Thought did not gel until now. I seriously doubt that most of us know much, if anything, about the greater (i.e. Across this very large United States) homeschooling population. I don't even call it a homeschooling "community" because we are too far-flung and too diverse. (That is another reason why sensationalist articles such as the one linked irritate many of us.).

 

A tautology now, but we know only what we know. Families who belong to homeschooling groups know about that membership. People who happen to know friends or relatives who homeschool, catch glimpses of those situations. Families barred from homeschooling groups, or who live where there are none, know their personal situations best. In short, my guess is that the most successful homeschooling families are taking excellent care of their own "home fires" and are not peering at other families through the jaundiced lenses of the media.

 

If I had not wandered past this WTM board a few years ago, i would know NOTHING about a plethora of topics, of resources, or of the lives of so varied a population of parents focused on their children's educations.

I agree.

 

I have known many homeschoolers, in several states and across generations. They take a variety of approaches and homeschool for different reasons and with different intent, but have never met any that I would personally consider educationally negligent. Some have different expectations than me--they may have no plan to send their kids to college, or they may be aiming for Harvard; that seems to depend primarily on the educational background of the parents. The kids mostly seem to grow up with similar life and employment prospects to those of their parents--which is exactly what happens to most traditionally schooled children.

[mamaraby]

I was reading another former fundie homeschooler's blog a couple of weeks ago where she talked about self-regulation - doesn't Idaho have something like this in place? That article, though, didn't paint a very effective picture. It gave the impression that they basically were a rubber stamp.

 

I struggle, too, with the idea that testing will prevent educational neglect - wouldn't that come with the attendant risks i.e. Common Core testing and cheating?

 

I don't know that I think there are any easy and maybe not even any good solutions to the problem and I would hate to lose some of the freedom to choose what works for us/follow their interests. However, it is a problem and doing nothing serves neither society nor children. I think to continue on in denial and/or defensiveness will only hurt homeschoolers in the run which could very well include losing that right altogether.

 

Engaging in ad hominem about the author/source of the article or insisting that we shouldn't do anything because schools have x, y, z problems and "they do it, too" seems kind of childish. I think we can address both.

[Mrs. Tharp]

Wisonsin vs Yoder held that the Amish were not subject to compulsory education laws at the secondary level. The Supreme Court held that the values promoted in secondary schools were in serious conflict with the Amish religion. The state's interest in compelling a high school education did not outweigh the parents' right of religious freedom. Requiring the Amish to attend high school violated the First Amendment. Also, the state of Wisconsin took the case up to the Supreme Court, not the parents. The Wisconsin Supreme Court had ruled in favor of the parents. http://www.oyez.org/cases/1970-1979/1971/1971_70_110

 

The court stated that it is one thing to argue that children need high school education to live in modern society but it is another to demand that of people who live their lives separated from mainstream community and this is a "keystone of the Amish faith." 

https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/406/205/case.html

 

This kind of sounds like language some religious Christian fundamentalist homeschoolers might use in support of doing things the way they do them educationally. Some do separate themselves from mainstream society. Women have certain roles. So do they in the Amish community. The way I see it, this group who is complaining about their educations or lack thereof are, in fact, complaining about a religious way of life, and First Amendment protections come into play.

 

You indicate we need data on homeschoolers where we can show we are effectively regulating ourselves the way the Amish do. I'm not really aware of scientific data regarding the Amish and how well they regulate themselves. Are there any studies you are aware of? I'd be interested to read those. 

 

I don't want to derail the thread with this topic. I held up the Anabaptists as an example of a group that fought mainstream education effectively. Homeschooling is a choice often strongly dictated by an individual's values, which may be held with the same strength as religious conviction. I agree with Joanne that educational neglect is not limited to one subgroup of homeschoolers, and thus is not solely about one group of people complaining about a religious way of life.

 

I do have information. I don't know about "scientific", especially when each Anabaptist community has its own standards, but people do study these communities and write about it.

 

Here it is: From the book Train Up a Child, by Karen M. Johnson-Weiner. p.152-53

 

"Every other year teachers in Indiana give the Iowa Test of Basic Skills, on which on which 75 percent of the students in Indiana private (Amish) schools score above the national average...The use of the Iowa tests demonstrates not only the way parents, teachers, and community school administrators work together, but also the feeling of many that having private schools is a privilege that could be revoked or curtailed by state supervision if school standards start to slip...

 

An article in School Echoes, 2001 19 explained: ...First, we feel it is our duty as representatives of our Amish schools to have records available in our schools to show that our students are learning in an acceptable level. Second, it can show the teacher (and parents) where individual students, class, or school is weak...To sum it up, it gives the school boards and state board an idea if our school are accomplishing what is required in academic education. ...

 

Noted a fellow member of the state school board, "There's no one breathing down the schools' neck to see what they're doing. As long as we educate and are productive members of society, they'll let us alone. If we become a burden, they'll get us." The schools' performance on the Iowa test helps to keep the state at bay by demonstrating that the Old Order Amish schools work. "

 

 

 

I did not say that that we need data to show that we are effectively regulating ourselves the way the Amish do, I said that if homeschoolers were able to do that, like the Amish, then they might successfully avoid active regulation from an outside agency, which is what I think most homeschoolers would prefer. It would also provide data with which to combat articles like the one cited by the OP.

 

 

 

 

[FaithManor]

Here is my question I guess? Is the Iowa Test of Basic Skills considered a basic education for an adult? It only goes up to 8th grade. In our area, some of the Amish schools only go to 6th grade.

 

I am of the opinion that while scoring well on the ITBS in 6th grade, at 11 or 12 years of age is good, or at 13/14 in 8th grade is nice. I've personally administered the 8th grade ITBS and I would consider it educational neglect to stop there. But again, I think that many people will argue about what is or is not an appropriate education for a neuro typical adult.

 

 

[Guest]

But... and I'm really not trying to dispute your experience, but I am genuinely wondering... is there really any systematic problem of abuse and neglect among homeschool parents who are not fundamentalist, Quiverfull style homeschoolers? And, again, this is not to imply that all fundamentalist Christian homeschoolers are practicing educational neglect or abuse, but rather that there is, within that subcommunity, a pattern of issues that have emerged for many formerly homeschooled children. I have never heard of any such issue for children outside that specific subculture beyond isolated, individual cases. The HA blog doesn't seem to have those sorts of stories.

 

And, to be clear, I don't consider that year so and so didn't get hardly any math done and then decided to put their kids back in school or to finally catch up by having to reteach basic arithmetic or whatever as educational neglect. Or that family that hasn't done science or history in a couple of years because two new babies were born and it was all they could do to cover some phonics and a bit of math. Those are situations that aren't ideal, but they're not neglect... and I would assume they aren't to you either. I also don't think that unschooling family with the 8 yo who can barely read a board book is neglectful - at least not automatically. I think unschooling can become neglect when children are asking for help in learning and for access to resources and they're being denied that help and those resources. However, I know a good number of unschoolers. They can all read and do basic math and they're all still pretty young. I don't see this as a common problem.

 

I guess I just don't see it. And I feel like it minimalizes it to imply that a broad spectrum of people of all religions who homeschool are abusing or neglecting their kids as part of a pattern of behavior. It implies that there isn't a problem that's specific to that particular brand of fundamentalist, patriarchal Christian communities and it implies that homeschoolers in general are more likely to be abusers, which I doubt it what you meant to imply.

 

I do think the bolded is educational neglect.  So, it's more broad than you try to make it sound.  It's not just the Quiverfulls as you seem to want to point out.  Even saying this, the article was completely inflammatory to all homeschoolers, and I don't think educational neglect is the norm.  

 

Also, I'm a conservative Christian, and I can tell you the public schools WANT my kids to boost their test scores.  I've been told this by the administrators.  My kids tried out a year and excelled.  I took one back out because he learned absolutely nothing. They wanted him to stay and it was because of test scores.  The conservative Christians I know are doing everything in their power to give their kids a great education and provide the social experiences needed.

 

 

[Farrar]

I do think the bolded is educational neglect.  So, it's more broad than you try to make it sound.  It's not just the Quiverfulls as you seem to want to point out.  Even saying this, the article was completely flammatory to all homeschoolers, and I don't think educational neglect is the norm.  

 

Also, I'm a conservative Christian, and I can tell you the public schools WANT my kids to boost their test scores.  I've been told this by the administrators.

 

If you think a family going light on a subject for a year is educational neglect, then I think it *is* the norm. Most homeschoolers I know have periods of more academics and less. I just don't consider that educational neglect. It's usually part of a purposeful choice on some level.