Lit.-- TOG vs. Omnibus vs. PP guides vs. Memoria Press

[Erin]

We bailed in to rhetoric-level TOG this year and so far so good.   :)

Dyslexia or no, Buck has always enjoyed a good story, so long as he didn't have to physically read the entire thing.  Even the ancient Egyptian poetry, found in Yr1U1 is good stuff.  He sees the commonalities shared amongst people, regardless of their time or place in history.  It's no Tom Sawyer or anything, but it's still interesting enough to hang on to him.

 

However, he has made the complaint that he's not reading enough.  

Up til now, we've done Sonlight.  Sonlight, in the younger years anyway, has a STACK of good books and he loved almost all of it.  

The (accurate) argument can be made that he wasn't delving as deeply into it, but merely hitting the high spots, as well as the fact that if he wants more now, he CAN read (listen) to as many books as he wants on his own.  TOG, for example, has alternate readings in every week if he wants to read more... 

 

I like the discussions in TOG.  

Everyone makes this big deal out of the Socratic discussions, but frankly, that's how I've always taught, even before I started teacher ed. classes many moons ago and was given a label for what I was doing, so I'm not seeing it as something for which I need a guide.  

However I do like the lit analysis guidance.  I would probably even say I need the lit analysis guidance and there really isn't any that accompanies the "alternate readings."  

(Or maybe I'm finally getting to the point of wanting to venture out a bit more on our own…?)

 

 

But that's my question--

If I want to flesh out TOG literature a bit more, which way should I go?  I'm looking at Veritas' Omnibus texts as well as the individual guides from Progeny Press and Memoria Press.  

I've looked at multiple samples of all of the above and am now curious what the Hive thinks.  For those who've used more than one of these, what are your opinions, so far as the literature analysis in particular?  How about vocabulary?  Who do you think handles this well?

[prairiewindmomma]

I can compare TOG and Omnibus.  (And really, there is a wide enough sample on google books that you can too, but we own both.)

 

In Omnibus, there is an essay written about the piece that the student reads. Often it is insightful, and it's a great example of what an essay can look like. (Often, I think students need to see good examples of academic writing when they themselves are just beginning to read.)  There are questions at the end of the section which lead into deeper analysis.  My complaint about many high school literature analysis questions is that many programs are still caught up in the "who did what where" and maybe delve a bit into the "why", but never really look at the broader themes.  I think rhetoric level reading should be about ideas....big ideas....and Omnibus does a better job than most with this.

 

By contrast, my TOG1 rhetoric level materials seem to be an odd mix of "who did what where" with a bit of "here's where xyz character acted differently from what God has taught" or "look what this great missionary did".  I think Omnibus allows a wider viewpoint of interpretations still within the framework of Christian worldview.....but if you need a very direct and open communication or are very providential in choosing your course material, TOG is for you.  I also thought that TOG chose fewer "great books" and more historical fiction. If your child has a strong preference one way or the other, that is a distinguishing point.  You can easily see the books used through Bookshelf Central.  I do not like that such a large portion of the books are religious viewpoint based....promoting an evangelical viewpoint and encouraging witnessing to Muslims, Mormons, Catholics, etc. how their views are false teachings.  I stopped buying TOG materials when she introduced "Mormonism Unmasked" into TOG Year 3. http://bookshelfcentral.com/index.php?main_page=resources&year=3&units=all&LR=on&subjects=all&type=BSC

 

I actually like Well-Educated Mind.....I have re-read it through a few times, and I think it provides an excellent framework for discussion!

[Erin]

Yeah, I'm not really seeing any of that in TOG…  Nor have I see any historical lit in the rhetoric level, either in our current year, or reviewing future years in Bookshelf.  

Really our only complaint is that the lit selections seem so thin.

 

Mostly I'm wondering how other providers handle literary analysis (theme, plot, images, etc) as well as deeper-thinking questions within their lit. guides.  

[Lori D.]

That seems a bit excessive and intense, to add another FULL program on top of TOG in order to add to the Literature… Perhaps a combo -- additional books to increase to a "Sonlight volume" of books and reading -- BUT, some are solo reads and some are analyzed with good individual lit. guides. That way you can make your own booklist that can include a variety of lighter Sonlight-type of historical fiction, but also additional classical works from Omnibus and Memoria Press. Also check out the classical booklists from Ambleside Online and 1000 Good Books, and book lists from other curriculum providers such as SL, My Father's World, Bob Jones, etc. The lighter historical fiction/folktale books might be esp. helpful in dealing with the dyslexia successfully, as often those books have larger type, wider spacing, and are quick to read, which can really bolster reading confidence.

 

Or, since you are already familiar with literary elements and how to analyze literature, you can read alongside your DS and guide discussion as the two of you see the elements at work… To help jump-start you with discussion points and ideas: Penguin classics, and some other publishers, usually provide a helpful opening essay to give you some ideas of what to be looking for as you read. Invitation to the Classics (Cowan & Guiness) and The Well Educated Mind (Wise-Bauer) are also helpful that way. And don't forget the Norton Anthologies! :) While Norton does NOT have an ancients anthology that I know of, Bedford does: Bedford Anthology of World Literature: Vol. 1: Ancient Literature (if you scroll down and click on the "read more" link you get the table of contents).

 

 

Looks like you're doing TOG Year 1 (ancients)? It looks like the Rhetoric Literature book list includes:

all year

- Anchor Book of Chinese Poetry

- From Ancient Days: Mesopotamian Myths, Tales, Poetry

- A Poetry Handbook

- Words of Delight: Literary Intro to the Bible

unit 1

- Ancient Egyptian Literature

unit 2

- Iliad 

- Odyssey

unit 3

- Aeschylus I

- Euripides

- Sophocles I

unit 4

- Aeneid

 

For example, below are some ideas to flesh out your reading, with SOLO = lighter Sonlight style/historical fiction to enjoy on his own, and LIT = works to analyze and use a guide. Ideas for free online guides: Sparknotes, Cliff's Notes, Pink Monkey and Glencoe Literature Library. Once you get into Medieval Literature (and later), a number of works have individual guides to them from publishers such as Portals to Literature, Garlic Press Discovering Literature series, Progeny Press, etc. I've also found some great in-depth material by doing an online search for "guide for __(name of work)___" -- sometimes some meaty info and guidance from a college syllabus that is going over that work! :)

 

unit 1

SOLO:

- The Golden Goblet (MacGraw) -- TOG Dialectic / SL core G

- Tales of Ancient Egypt (Green) -- TOG Dialectic

- Shadow Hawk (Norton) -- 1000 Good Books List

LIT:

- Gilgamesh (Ferry translation) -- Omnibus I, Mister Dann links to helpful study guides and resources

- Till We Have Faces (Lewis) -- guide lecture by Peter Kreeft; CSL Book Club free online guide

- Bhagavad Gita -- The Great Books Christian worldview guide

 

unit 2

SOLO:

- The Chi Lin Purse (Fang) -- TOG Dialectic

- Twenty Jataka Tales (Khan) -- TOG Dialectic

- Hittite Warrior (Williamson) -- TOG Dialectic / SL core G

LIT:

- Oedipus Cycle -- Oedipus the King, Oedipus at Colonus, Antigone -- SMARR has a guide for Antigone 

- Jason and the Argonauts (various options: The Argonautica; Collum's retelling: The Golden Fleece…)

- Greek Myths (various options: Hamilton, Bullfinch, Graves, Hawthorne's Tanglewood Tales…)

 

unit 3

SOLO:

- Adara (Gormley) -- TOG Dialectic

- God King (Williamson) -- TOG Dialectic / SL core G

LIT:

- Oedipus Cycle: Oedipus the King, Oedipus at Colonus, Antigone (Antigone = SMARR guide)

- Greek Myths (continued)

 

unit 4

SOLO:

- The Bronze Bow (Speare) -- TOG Dialectic / Memoria Press gr. 6 / SL core G

- Eagle of the Ninth (Sutcliffe) -- TOG Dialectic / SL core G

- Silver Branch; Lantern Bearers (Sutcliffe) -- sequels to Eagle of the Ninth

- Ides of April (Ray) -- TOG Dialectic / SL core G

- The Desert Gate (Ray) -- sequel to Ides of April

- Ben Hur (Wallace) -- Ambleside Online booklist

LIT:

- Julius Caesar (Shakespeare) -- Omnibus I, Parallel Shakespeare guide & workbook, The Great Books Christian worldview guide

- Metamorphoses (Ovid)

 

 

My other suggestion would be to add either individual works or a deep-digging Literature program SEPARATE from the TOG and that does not match up with the History period. The point would be deep analysis of additional works of Literature for more meat this year, AND to knock out a few works for future years when there are SO many works to choose from from all around the world (19th & 20th centuries, or, year 3 and 4 of TOG). One program option you and DS might enjoy doing this year is the 1-semester Windows to the World (you could easily spread it out over 1 year, fitting in units of it as it works with TOG); by focusing on 6 short stories, the program teaches annotation, literary analysis essay and using your annotations as support, and focuses on about 8-10 of the major literary elements and how they work in Literature. It is from a Christian perspective.

 

BEST of luck as you add to your Literature! Warmest regards, Lori D.

[mjbucks1]

Lori's selections are great.  I also HIGHLY recommend the Elizabeth Vandiver lectures from the Great Courses when you study the Odyssey, Illiad, and Aeneid. I also think you will be pleased with the subsequent years of TOG.  I felt that Year 2 was especially challenging (in a good way!). 

[Erin]

Thanks for the great ideas Lori.  And no, I wasn't looking at adding another full program.  

I would either change out TOG at the same time, or do both and lighten…something like that. 

[Erin]

How about the idea of shifting into a more independent direction, away from TOG?  

I only have the first two units of Year 1 and I might be ready to go a more self-selected route.  

Are there any of the above that people prefer from an analysis standpoint?  (Most of the classics have generic study-guide type questions, free for the taking, all over the web.  I'm hunting for something a bit deeper, possibly including vocab.)

[1Togo]

Other Lit/Reading Guides

 

Secondary Solutions - secular, thorough

Smarr- reading guides with literature response type questions

 

If your son does not know how to write a literature analysis paper, follow Jill Pike's syllabus to work

through "Teaching the Classics" and "Windows to the World." After that, your son would be prepared to use

any literature guide.

[Lori D.]

How about the idea of shifting into a more independent direction, away from TOG?  

I only have the first two units of Year 1 and I might be ready to go a more self-selected route.  

Are there any of the above that people prefer from an analysis standpoint?  (Most of the classics have generic study-guide type questions, free for the taking, all over the web.  I'm hunting for something a bit deeper, possibly including vocab.)

 

Sounds like you are fine with the History portion of TOG, but wanting more for the Literature / English portion (specifically deeper analysis/discussion and possibly vocabulary)?

 

Short answer: No. I can't think of any Literature-based program or guide that goes deeper that what you are probably already doing. Your best bet for that would probably be to have DS take a class with a good Lit. teacher. Or, DIY, which is a lot of work, but it can be rewarding, doing all that research.

 

Ancients are the HARDEST to find guide materials of any depth that help with literary elements and literary analysis -- most of the material strongly connects the Literature to the History, instead of analyzing it AS literature. Part of the problem is that the ancient cultures which produced the ancient literature are SO very distant and different from our culture today, it makes it really tough to know for sure what ideas and themes were important to the people of the time -- and we, today, so often totally miss the cultural references, and the symbolism and imagery and why it was important to the ancients...

 

In case you decide to DIY, I just stumbled across this website that may of slight help with more in-depth background info, and some of his guides include themes and ideas to look for, and some even include literary elements to look for: Classics Technology Center: The Classical Origins of Western Culture by Roger Dunkle. (That whole website of Able One Education Network: Classics Technology Center is quite something!) He covers:

 

Iliad (Homer)

Odyssey (Homer)

History of the Peloponnesian War (Thucydides)

Oedipus the King (Sophocles)

Antigone (Sophocles)

Medea (Euripides)

Bacchae (Euripides)

Clouds (Aristophanes)

Lysistrata (Aristophanes)

The Apology (Plato)

The Republic (Plato)

Poetics (selections) (Aristotle)

Aeneid (Virgil)

 

I found that to dig deeper, I ended up doing the Lit. WITH DSs, guiding the discussion, and using a LOT of resources for each work as I could find them. We were able to "springboard" from many of the free online resources and the purchased guides, but most of them were not as meaty as I was looking for. A few were more meaty than others:

 

- Garlic Press, Discovering Literature series challenger level

- gr. 6-12, approx. 95 pages, approx. $10 each

- includes answer key and short "teaching notes" section

- 9 guides (at challenger level) -- The Odyssey, To Kill a Mockingbird, Lord of the Flies, The Giver, The Hunger Games trilogy (3 guides); The Hobbit; Redwall

- NO vocabulary work

- easy to use at home / one-on-one

- background info of author/times

- summaries of chapters

- 20-24 1-2 page "teaching strategies" of info on literary elements and Literature topics and how they're used

- GREAT discussion questions for every chapter

- additional great writing assignment suggestions

- suggested activities and additional resources

 

- Portals to Literature series

- gr. 6-12, approx. 150 pages, approx. $20-24 each

- includes answer key and "teacher notes" (suggestions of how to approach the topic for that section)

- 20 guides, all for 20th century works

- some vocabulary work

- designed for classroom use so you have to adapt

- background info on author/times

- summaries (several chapters at a time)

- brief teaching info on literary elements and how they are used

- class activities, worksheets

- discussion / writing questions

 

As far as other guides and programs you mentioned:

 

Progeny Press -- high school guides

- see table of contents and most extensive sample pages at www.christianbook.com

- none for ancients; quality and depth varies from guide to guide

- about 75 pages; space left for students to write in the guide; about $18 per guide

- yes, there is some vocabulary work

- background info on author / times

- suggested "while you are reading" idea of 1-2 things to look for

- VERY brief definition of a few literary elements, and then a few questions on where you see them at work

- some discussion questions, largely comparing ideas in the work with specific Bible scriptures

- choice of 4-5 writing assignments

- optional activities ideas

 

Memoria Press

- check out the sample pages on the website to see what you think

- guides for: Iliad, Odyssey, Aeneid

- Student guide: per chapter: key terms, 12 comprehension questions, 2 discussion questions

- Teacher guide: per chapter: answers, suggested discussion points, suggested test questions and essay assignments

 

SMARR

- can't find sample pages

- (we used the individual Gilgamesh guide) -- unless their complete program is different from the individual lit. guides, VERY light and disappointing -- about 8-12 half-size pages with:

- list of vocabulary words and a quiz

- comprehension questions

- 3-4 actual discussion questions

 

MJBucks1 suggestion above about using the Vandiver lecture series from Teaching Company on The Iliad and The Odyssey is excellent -- you will get loads of depth and understanding of the culture going that route.

 

Omnibus is a great program and it IS one of the more rigorous options, BUT -- it is a Great Books integrated study, so it is focused on the "big picture", with Worldview focus -- not a Literature-based study that focuses on literary elements, techniques used by the author, topics in Literature, analysis/discussion, and themes and meaning/personal application. The literary works of the program progress through several stages:

 

1. Prelude (question based around ethics or worldview to stir up interest)

2. Discussion (student opinion, text opinion, opinion of Scripture (Bible), culture's opinion, synthesis)

3. Recitation (comprehension questions)

4. Analysis (worldview-based, rather than literature-based -- usually compare/contrast characters, cultures, authors, etc.)

5. Writing (progymnasmata progression)

6. Activity (some sort of interactive or hands-on project)

7. Review/Evaluation (tests -- both factual/comprehension and thinking/comparative essays)

 

I suggest looking at the samples for several of the Omnibus student and teacher texts to get a feel for how the material is covered -- it's great, and very detailed, but not Literature-based in the way you are describing what you want.

 

BEST of luck in finding what works for your family! Warmly, Lori D.

[Erin]

Thanks again, Lori!  

You're fantastic. :)

[EndOfOrdinary]

So my son is still young, but he is a bit of an ancients freak.  Many of the books we are doing are avaliable on audio through YouTube, as are many lectures to supplement and use for later conversation. Here is what we are doing this year:

 

Mesopotamia, Egypt, Indus Valley, Biblical Lands

Epic of Gilgamesh

Code of Hammurabi

Myth of Osiris and Isis

Seven Virtues and the 42 Admonitions of Ma'at

Ten Commandments

Exodus

Genesis

Deuteronomy

Daniel

 

Greece, Rome, Northern Africa

Histories by Herodotus

Age of Alexander by Plutarch

History of Peloponnesian Wars by Thucydides

Odu Ifa

Acts

Titus

(Possibly Iliad, Odyssey, Aeneid again but I am so sick of them)

 

 

I have gone back and forth with Omnibus.  Spent way too much time in the homeschool bookstore looking at Omnibus.  Though at this point with my son, me putting things together seems to be working very well.  I honestly thought it was going to take much more time to pull together, but it hasn't.  Okay, the first month it took a whole lot of time.  Now it flows much better as I have found series, college lectures for classes, and YouTube channels which focus on various time periods in history.  Many of these works also have literary analysis and discussion questions posted in various college websites.  This has made the upfront work from me so much slimmer!