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kahlanne

Why the need to know?

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 We are working through this as well, it is full of fantastic information, my 13 year old is really loving it. 

 

 

Just FYI--

 

There is a hard to find khan academy version too. I am using it with my son as it is a little more streamlined.   Love this crashcourse video! 

 

https://www.khanacademy.org/partner-content/big-history-project/what-is-big-history/welcome-to-big-history/v/bhp-big-bang-crashcourse

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Just FYI--

 

There is a hard to find khan academy version too. I am using it with my son as it is a little more streamlined. Love this crashcourse video!

 

https://www.khanacademy.org/partner-content/big-history-project/what-is-big-history/welcome-to-big-history/v/bhp-big-bang-crashcourse

John Green has an entire series of these crashcourse history videos on youtube. Just in case people don't realize. :) They are great!

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Necessary?  Necessary for what?

 

Is Shakespeare necessary?  Is Calculus necessary?  Is it necessary to be able to communicate in a language other than the one you know?

 

Knowledge may not be necessary but is life worth living without it?  In which case, knowledge is necessary.

 

 

I guess necessary isn't quite the correct word. I meant more like necessary in our daily lives for "regular" people, not scientists, geologists, etc. I absolutely see the need to always learn new things. Part of the reason I posted this topic was to learn more even if it wasn't a necessity. I couldn't understand how it factored into our daily lives to the point that it needed to be debated so vehemently and at times alienating large groups of people from each other. I understand if scientist disagree and needed to argue their stance but "regular" people, not so much. Understand now? I can now see some of the reasons it is important. I especially liked the one poster, sorry I can't remember who, that commented how politics can control things based on viewpoints and therefore affect my everyday life. Ex. a YE school board leader may try to force his beliefs when choosing the curriculum for the local schools.

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I'm pretty sure someone who believed in YEC wouldn't be hanging out to spend time with my heathen lot either.

 

 

I have a YE friend. We cope with each other. :p

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I guess necessary isn't quite the correct word. I meant more like necessary in our daily lives for "regular" people, not scientists, geologists, etc. I absolutely see the need to always learn new things. Part of the reason I posted this topic was to learn more even if it wasn't a necessity. I couldn't understand how it factored into our daily lives to the point that it needed to be debated so vehemently and at times alienating large groups of people from each other. I understand if scientist disagree and needed to argue their stance but "regular" people, not so much. Understand now? I can now see some of the reasons it is important. I especially liked the one poster, sorry I can't remember who, that commented how politics can control things based on viewpoints and therefore affect my everyday life. Ex. a YE school board leader may try to force his beliefs when choosing the curriculum for the local schools.

 

Those of us who have taught post secondary math are weary of the "But when am I going to use it?" question. 

 

And, yes, an informed electorate is important.  Most people cannot be knowledgeable of all things but a foundation in many areas of study allows one to pursue a variety of subjects and interests later in life.

 

Sounds like a sales pitch for the Well Trained Mind.  ;)

 

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I have a YE friend. We cope with each other. :p

 

They shun us. Mostly because they couldn't convert us. Arctic Mama is the closest thing I've got to a YE friend :)

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I am not saying that you shouldn't want to know but is it necessary? Reasoning?

 

It's one of the coolest stories ever written. Nothing but the best for me. :rofl:

 

There aren't many stories where the sequels are guaranteed to be better than the original either.

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They shun us. Mostly because they couldn't convert us. Arctic Mama is the closest thing I've got to a YE friend :)

 

We live in a small town. I'm probably the only pagan and she's probably the only YE Christian. lol

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I said above that I have friends of many stripes, and I do. I have YEC friends. But there are also people with whom we are not friends because of their reactions to various elements of our life. For example, one woman stopped allowing my dd to babysit after dd asked the kids if they had seen Frozen because it contains magic.

 

When my middle dd was in first grade she asked a girl at homeschool PE class, "what are you dressing up as for Halloween," and the girl said, "Halloween in the devil's birthday."

 

At a Bible study another teen asked my girls if they believed in evolution, then informed them that they were going to hell.

 

It would be nice to believe that these ideas are *very* fringe, but we have encountered them on a regular basis in homeschool circles from the east coast of the US to Hawaii. It isn't limited by region.

Not fringe. Oh I wish, but yup, not fringe.

 

I'm the boardie that was called and "disinvited" to dissect squid and frogs with a group of middle school homeschool students because someone in the group found out that we have read the Harry Potter books. They decided I would be a bad influence on their kids, and one mom even suggested I probably worshipped the devil. I had not even volunteered for this group. They called ME because they knew I had the equipment and the education do this with their kids. I was doing them a favor. Sigh....a couple of days after "firing" me, they called back to ask if they could still borrow my equipment!!! The nerve! At any rate, I had a bit of fun with them and said no as well as expressing shock that they would even consider touching my science supplies since obviously I might have put a spell on the instruments or something. There was a HUGE gasp on the other line and a hurried hang up. Oh well, one less thing I needed on my schedule anyway.

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How would you know someone believed in "young earth"?  I have been around a lot and can't recall any conversation in which the age of the earth ever came up in a friendly social context.

 

But you're not a home schooler.

 

YEC, evolution, and so forth might not come up in a mixed 'friendly social context,' but at a gathering of home schoolers? Far more likely! If one lives in an area with a fair number of non-denominational churches, it is almost assuredly going to come up with frequency, even in mixed/secular gatherings.  

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I am not saying that you shouldn't want to know but is it necessary? Reasoning?

Strictly speaking I CAN live without that knowledge. I could also live without ever traveling 100 miles from my birthplace. I could live without being married or a mother. I could live without ribeye steak. I could live believing that the earth is flat or the moon is made of cheese. I could live without roller skates and baseball and basketball and music.

 

I don't wanna live like that though.

 

Intellectual curiosity about the world around us and about the full extent of our history is something that is central to my family's values.

 

ETA: actually, I don't know if I could live without roller skates. :P

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St. John Chrysostom's commentary on the scriptures is, well I don't know how else to say it except "huge" in the EOC.  And it is so beautiful how he helps us understand and the love in the creation story, God's love.  He talks about how God tried so hard to give Adam and Eve one simple rule to obey, to lead them as gently as possible into obedience.  He gave them paradise, filled with, among other things, abundant food, and asked them only that they not eat the fruit from one particular tree.  Easy!  Such an EASY rule to follow, right?  God wasn't trying to make things difficult for them or set them up for failure, He was trying to make obedience as effortless as possible.  That shift in perspective was revolutionary for me.  I had been raised to think of God as this big powerful mean parent who had set a trap for his children so that he could punish them.  But the truth of the story is the opposite:  He is a loving and gentle parent who tried to teach His children to follow Him by giving them the easiest first step imaginable.

 

The thing I don't understand about this is that God is omnipotent. He knows everything that has happened or will ever happen. He knows all the past and all the future. So he knew Eve would sin. How is that explained by EOC?

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Strictly speaking I CAN live without that knowledge. I could also live without ever traveling 100 miles from my birthplace. I could live without being married or a mother. I could live without ribeye steak. I could live believing that the earth is flat or the moon is made of cheese. I could live without roller skates and baseball and basketball and music.

 

I don't wanna live like that though.

 

Intellectual curiosity about the world around us and about the full extent of our history is something that is central to my family's values.

 

ETA: actually, I don't know if I could live without roller skates. :P

I see what you did there.

 

You tried to sneak in a little comment about how the moon isn't really made of cheese.

 

Always looking for a fight, aren't you? :glare:

 

;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)

 

 

.

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I see what you did there.

 

You tried to sneak in a little comment about how the moon isn't really made of cheese.

 

Always looking for a fight, aren't you? :glare:

 

;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)

 

 

.

You've got my number.

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See, to me, it totally matters. If God created an old-appearing universe...well, that's just dumb. Also, there are so many processes that rely upon chemistry or physics or whatever. Would God make coal compress into diamonds on a speedy schedule just because he wanted it to "seem" like diamonds were formed over a long period of time? I have also heard (and I'm not a scientist at all, so forgive if I say this wrong) that stars dying leave chemical signatures, so again, it would make no sense to say God put all sorts of processes in place as-is in media rez already happened/happening.

 

Also Day-Age does not make sense to me, either. Either Genesis is an account of (at minimum) the timeline of things coming to be, or it isn't. god creates light one "day," but doesn't create the sun until later. He also doesn't make plants until after the sun, so if it was a long time before photosynthesis could happen, I'm not sure how the plants made it. Animals are interdependent with other animals, soil, plants, seasons, weather. How could these things be created separately, divided by long time periods? Also, one verse with a poetic simile about a day being "like" a thousand years to God does not support an entire thought process of "days" not representing days of about 24 hours. Anyway...I sort of wish I could think it doesn't matter; I could have retained my faith, but it seems to me that Theistic Evolution offers just as much wishful thinking, explaining-away, and have-cake-eat-it-too as YEC does.

 

God is so far beyond the human capacity to understand Him that we are only catching a glimpse through a glass darkly as St. Paul so eloquently puts it. Why does God do what He does? None of us mere humans can possibly know that. 

 

Did God create the universe billions of years ago or did He merely create an old-appearing universe much more recently? Were the 7 days of Creation equivalent to 144 modern hours or some other time frame? These are questions for theologians to debate but contrary to what some YEC's claim, they aren't salvation issues for Christians. The Nicene Creed mentions nothing about Christians having to read Genesis as a literal historical & scientific narrative.

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My view on being well-educated is this:

 

Someone can be very knowledgable about all sorts of subjects, but if they think science can support a YEC or YLC view if you just interpret the data differently, then they are not well-educated in those pertinent fields of science. They can be well-educated in all sorts of things, but not that.

 

If they understand science, properly done, does not support their view and they understand why, but still believe in a YEC or YLC view because of theological reasons, then I could consider them well-educated in those areas of science too.

 

I know people whose amount of knowledge in things blows me out of the water, but are YEC/YLC and show their ignorance about those areas every time they open their mouths. They know so much more than I do about all sorts of things, but not that.

 

It's just my opinion.

 

I would add too, that I know people who are educated about science in general, but they get their information about the science/creationist controversy from untrustworthy sources and so are misinformed. They might understand how science works etc., but they are basically being lied to and they don't realize it because they think their sources are reliable. It is hard to get educated when you are being lied to.

 

You make some very bold statements.  I'd like to see if you could actually back those statements up.

 

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The thing I don't understand about this is that God is omnipotent. He knows everything that has happened or will ever happen. He knows all the past and all the future. So he knew Eve would sin. How is that explained by EOC?

Forgive me, but I'm not sure what you're asking. The EOC affirms God's omnipotence. The point I was trying to (perhaps ineffectively) make is that the EOC also affirms His love.

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Forgive me, but I'm not sure what you're asking. The EOC affirms God's omnipotence. The point I was trying to (perhaps ineffectively) make is that the EOC also affirms His love.

 

Why would a loving God knowingly create beings that would sin and that he knew he would then have to eject from the Garden of Eden? 

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Why would a loving God knowingly create beings that would sin and that he knew he would then have to eject from the Garden of Eden?

Because He loved us enough to give us free will, rather than make us mindless automatons or puppets who would simply act in a way that He "wanted" without any understanding of what we were doing. He loved us enough to make us in His image, to give us freedom.

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So He created us and gave us free will. Why did he give us the opportunity to sin? Why plant the Tree of Knowledge?

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YEC people are and aren't fringe here. They are mostly homeschoolers so in that sense they're fringe but among the local homeschool groups they're common.

 

The hs group closest to me requires a statement of faith that basically says you must believe in a young earth to be a member. All of their co-ops include some type of young earth teachings. When ds was younger, they didn't require the SoF unless you wanted to hold an office, so we joined without signing. I just figured I'd never be on any committees or hold an office, which was fine with me. Then people started telling my six year old he was going to hell because his parents let him watch Harry Potter. Also, we were still believers back then but apparently went to the wrong church. Mostly we kept quiet, but after a while I decided it wasn't fair to ds to hide who we are and what we believe. I lost a few friends and ds lost several too when some of the people found out we weren't YEC. 

 

We weren't the ones who didn't want to be friends with people who believed differently. They decided we are a bad influence. Some cut us out of their lives, others made socializing with them so painful that we left on our own.

 

I often say how fortunate I am to have found a large group of secular and inclusive homeschoolers but it wasn't always so and it wasn't always easy. For a while we knew no other like-minded homeschoolers or at least ones who were willing to agree to disagree. When I finally found the group of people we currently call friends, it was by accident. And they aren't based in my city. For 10 years I've been driving anywhere from 30 minutes to an hour to all of our activities, and even just for ds to get together with friends.

 

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Because He loved us enough to give us free will, rather than make us mindless automatons or puppets who would simply act in a way that He "wanted" without any understanding of what we were doing. He loved us enough to make us in His image, to give us freedom.

 

He gave us the freedom to sin and he knew we would sin. He knew ahead of time that he would eject us from Eden. He is omnipotent. Explain why a loving God would do this?

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Because He loved us enough to give us free will, rather than make us mindless automatons or puppets who would simply act in a way that He "wanted" without any understanding of what we were doing. He loved us enough to make us in His image, to give us freedom.

 

You know, I find this to be contradictory. Either he wanted obedience or he wanted self-will. To say he wanted us to "choose" obedience out of our own will is giving a false choice. So basically he did want automatons, but with a mind of their own.

 

Also can I say that your initial point was that Genesis was not a historical account:

 

I believe the point of the story is NOT a historical, chronological, scientific account of how God did it.  The point of the story is that God did it, and it was goodThis article talks a bit about how the people at the time would have interpreted the story, and therefore helps us get out from behind the lens of our own culture and see the story the way it was intended.  Another example not mentioned in this particular article is that some cultures at that time believed in a sun god who was the source of life.  But the Genesis account has God creating plant life on the third day, and the sun on the fourth.  So the point is to show that God is the source both of life, and the sun, the sun (sun god) is not the source of life.

 

If that is the case, then I don't think the story should be used as an illustration of god's nature.

 

 

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White supremacy is a bad example but I agree with Quill's point and understand where 4#Jen is coming from. There are definitely points of view that I shelter my kids from in the sense that I don't want to be hanging out with them or setting up a situation where those viewpoints might appear "normal" to my kids.

I find it amusing that on a forum where so many preach tolerance about everything, and everyone, this statement would even be made.

 

If we are gonna preach tolerance, why in the WORLD would we exclude as friends, people who might have a different belief system about the earth's age?!?

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Because it tends to be an indicator of certain religious values that might make intimate and honest relationship a bit impossible ? Also, for me, because it would distract me. I'd be thinking about it and wondering how my friend believes that stuff, which would probably bug her, plus the biggie - never met a homeschooling YEC who wasn't ONLY interested in befriending the heathens to show them the love of God. Also not good for friendship.

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I find it amusing that on a forum where so many preach tolerance about everything, and everyone, this statement would even be made.

 

If we are gonna preach tolerance, why in the WORLD would we exclude as friends, people who might have a different belief system about the earth's age?!?

 

Well, after my recent experience, I'm certainly inclined to believe that that may be the best thing for my family.  It's unfortunate, but I can't be around people who specifically think that my family is not a valid one, and it just seems like those beliefs go hand in hand.  :(

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My statement wasn't about any opinion of the earth's age at all. I'm not sure how I gave that impression. My point is about not wanting to expose my kids to opinions I find dangerous. YEC is not dangerous IMO but to some people it is & I understand why they don't want to be around it.

 

So let's be clear. I don't exclude people who have different beliefs about the age of the earth. I do understand excluding people with beliefs I find dangerous. I understand that some people find the YEC viewpoint dangerous.

 

I absolutely do believe in tolerance. That doesn't mean I tolerate everything. Your comment about my opinion being "amusing" is patronizing and I don't appreciate it, especially since you completely missed my point.

 

I find it amusing that on a forum where so many preach tolerance about everything, and everyone, this statement would even be made.

 

If we are gonna preach tolerance, why in the WORLD would we exclude as friends, people who might have a different belief system about the earth's age?!?

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Because it tends to be an indicator of certain religious values that might make intimate and honest relationship a bit impossible ? Also, for me, because it would distract me. I'd be thinking about it and wondering how my friend believes that stuff, which would probably bug her, plus the biggie - never met a homeschooling YEC who wasn't ONLY interested in befriending the heathens to show them the love of God. Also not good for friendship.

Ok I get that. I just wonder why, when the conservative folk don't want to befriend those whose beliefs or lifestyles they are uncomfortable with, it is intolerant.

 

And, just know that I am not referring to myself; this just kind of struck a nerve because of so many posts on these boards about tolerance. It just seems like a pretty INtolerant attitude.

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Ok I get that. I just wonder why, when the conservative folk don't want to befriend those whose beliefs or lifestyles they are uncomfortable with, it is intolerant.

 

And, just know that I am not referring to myself; this just kind of struck a nerve because of so many posts on these boards about tolerance. It just seems like a pretty INtolerant attitude.

If I say I don't want to be friends with someone who doesn't respect women, and they say they don't want to be friends with me because I'm just a woman, are we equally intolerant?

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Ok I get that. I just wonder why, when the conservative folk don't want to befriend those whose beliefs or lifestyles they are uncomfortable with, it is intolerant.

 

And, just know that I am not referring to myself; this just kind of struck a nerve because of so many posts on these boards about tolerance. It just seems like a pretty INtolerant attitude.

Tolerance and friendship aren't the same thing at all.

 

Nobody says a fundamentalist has to go out and get a gay bestie, just that s/he shouldn't stand in the way of that person's human rights.

 

I am friends with only a few people out of the teeming billions. I hope I am tolerant ( in the sense of understanding a person to have the same human rights as myself, including the right to a religion/worship, the right to marry etc ) of many more.

 

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Tolerance is not acceptance.

 

I can respect someone's right to have their beliefs without accepting their belief system as factually correct or carrying equal evidence as anything else.

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Tolerance is a weird thing. Liberals like myself are often accused of preaching tolerance, but not practicing it. I think the difference really lies what you consider practicing. For example, I absolutely believe the right that one can think gays are sinners, go for it. But when you take your beliefs and legislate them, that is where the tolerant line lies. So in my personal life, you can tell me that you don't think gays should serve in the military, even knowing my gay dad did, and I didn't try to legislate her belief away or have her put in jail for that, I simply distanced myself. I am under no obligation to tolerate hatefulness (especially in friendship) but I still believe in your legal right to be hateful. See the difference?

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To piggyback on my own post, gay rights and yec aren't the same at all. I just think a lot of those beliefs end up going together and because gay rights are kind of a thing right now and my own personal experience with them, it's easy for me to draw parallels. I would never not befriend a person for their beliefs on the age of the earth alone, but when combined with other fundamentalist beliefs, there is some degree of likelihood that friendship would eventually be incompatible.

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Because He loved us enough to give us free will, rather than make us mindless automatons or puppets who would simply act in a way that He "wanted" without any understanding of what we were doing. He loved us enough to make us in His image, to give us freedom.

Not snarky question:  If we are made in His image, and we sin, does God sin?

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I find it amusing that on a forum where so many preach tolerance about everything, and everyone, this statement would even be made.

 

If we are gonna preach tolerance, why in the WORLD would we exclude as friends, people who might have a different belief system about the earth's age?!?

I am a very tolerant person, and politically, centrist-leaning-conservative. It takes a lot for me to decide I can't be friends with a person, and even then, I would still be cordial towards them when I see them.

 

Nevertheless, there are many beliefs a person can have that so fully informs the rest of their behavior and the rest of their philosophy, that being *friends* with them is untenable. It's not for nothing that a person is a YEC; they would pretty much absolutely be a biblical literalist. If one believes everything written in the Bible is literally a true story and a correct way of thinking, it is easy to believe other ideas, such as the necessity to beat children with an implement, that homosexuals are "an abomination," that women should not hold positions of authority, and on and on. I don't want a person who believes this way as a *friend.* i'm not going to make an effort to be your buddy if you will be spewing such things.

 

There was a particular woman in my co-op like this. She behaved as though her beliefs were self-evident and no Catholic could think otherwise. During our Presidential election, she would approach women she thought might vote Democrat, and sought to have "conversations" with them to convince them no real Catholic could vote for Obama. One of my friends had to finally shut her down, saying it was not her concern who others vote for.

 

Some people are not worth the effort it takes to be civil.

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God is so far beyond the human capacity to understand Him that we are only catching a glimpse through a glass darkly as St. Paul so eloquently puts it. Why does God do what He does? None of us mere humans can possibly know that.

 

Did God create the universe billions of years ago or did He merely create an old-appearing universe much more recently? Were the 7 days of Creation equivalent to 144 modern hours or some other time frame? These are questions for theologians to debate but contrary to what some YEC's claim, they aren't salvation issues for Christians. The Nicene Creed mentions nothing about Christians having to read Genesis as a literal historical & scientific narrative.

If this is fine with you, then good; it is easier if it doesn't bother you and I sometimes wish it didn't bother me. To me, I don't know how one can feel they have a "relationship" with God, if many things make no sense, if you can't enjoy a "relationship" in the usual way.

 

Saying salvation doesn't hang on it makes no sense to me. The Bible is where we get the "instructions" for what salvation means and why it would be necessary. If parts of the Bible are just broad-based stories meant to show one larger point, i.e., "God made everything and it was good," then what makes anyone believe Jesus was Messiah, that his life, death, and resurrection happened as described Biblically? That any of that is necessary to begin with?

 

If God "inspired" a person to write the account of how everything came to be, why would he NOT give the account correctly?

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I guess necessary isn't quite the correct word. I meant more like necessary in our daily lives for "regular" people, not scientists, geologists, etc. I absolutely see the need to always learn new things. Part of the reason I posted this topic was to learn more even if it wasn't a necessity. I couldn't understand how it factored into our daily lives to the point that it needed to be debated so vehemently and at times alienating large groups of people from each other. I understand if scientist disagree and needed to argue their stance but "regular" people, not so much. Understand now? I can now see some of the reasons it is important. I especially liked the one poster, sorry I can't remember who, that commented how politics can control things based on viewpoints and therefore affect my everyday life. Ex. a YE school board leader may try to force his beliefs when choosing the curriculum for the local schools.

 

I am a scientifically minded, religious non-Christian. 

 

For me, it absolutely matters in my day-to-day life. It's a matter of decision-making. How can one make decisions about things like vaccines, GMOs, organic foods, whether or not to use antibiotics, when to seek medical attention for an illness, which course of treatment to pursue for that illness (medication vs surgery, for example),Which type of gasoline to purchase, what type of foods to feed one's family, what type of materials to build one's home with, or which fabrics to wear on one's body without knowledge of the basic properties and processes that go into the manufacture and application of each.

 

Not that every single decision decision has to be thoroughly researched down to subatomic particles, but how do you know if you should use bleach to disinfect your counters if you have no scientific knowledge of microbes and the interaction between bleach and said microbes?

 

If I understand correctly, and scientific knowledge is not necessary, doesn't that require a certain amount of blind trust? Wouldn't your choices be made by someone else? If I take my child to his doctor and the doctor offers me an array of vaccines and medications, and I have no real understanding of the effects of any of those items, don't I just have to trust that he knows best?

Without knowledge of genetics, how can you know whether GMOs are a great invention or a dangerous, toxic imitation of food? Who do you trust? Monsanto? 

 

I suppose there are practical guidelines for most choices, someone's recommendations of what you should do, but how do you evaluate those? Is Gardasil necessary for your 9 year old? Or is it dangerous? How do you know?

 

All of these choices have their basis in the scientific method. If science is unlearned or discounted, one cannot evaluate the veracity of the Hypercleanliness Theory or understand what a superbug is and how they are created. Evolution isn't something that happened in the past. It's happening now. It's affecting our health, our medical treatments, our food supply, our daily lives.

 

To assume that everything was created exactly as it now is flawed, and dangerous. That belief dismisses some very real concerns that each of us have to make in our small, mundane daily choices. If you buy the GMO corn, you are supporting a process that has forever irreversibly changed the food supply of the entire world. (Not to overstate things). If you give your child unnecessary antibiotics, don't finish the course, vaccinate under less than ideal circumstances, those choices could prove fatal. These little things really aren't little. 

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Tolerance is a weird thing. Liberals like myself are often accused of preaching tolerance, but not practicing it. I think the difference really lies what you consider practicing. For example, I absolutely believe the right that one can think gays are sinners, go for it. But when you take your beliefs and legislate them, that is where the tolerant line lies. So in my personal life, you can tell me that you don't think gays should serve in the military, even knowing my gay dad did, and I didn't try to legislate her belief away or have her put in jail for that, I simply distanced myself. I am under no obligation to tolerate hatefulness (especially in friendship) but I still believe in your legal right to be hateful. See the difference?

 

Just felt this needed to be repeated. 

 

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...YEC is not dangerous IMO but to some people it is & I understand why they don't want to be around it.

 

So let's be clear. I don't exclude people who have different beliefs about the age of the earth. I do understand excluding people with beliefs I find dangerous. I understand that some people find the YEC viewpoint dangerous.

 

I absolutely do believe in tolerance. That doesn't mean I tolerate everything. ....

 

 

A lot of people think it it is dangerous for kids to be around gay people.  I can acknowledge that some feel that way, but I don't think it's really OK for people to "shield" their kids from gay people.  Most here wouldn't dare suggest such a thing is OK.  If someone did, a lot of the people supporting "shield kids from YEC folks" would be up in arms.  But to me it is the same thing.

 

People spend too much energy caring what other people think and do.  It improves nobody's quality of life.  You know, if people stopped reacting to the YEC noise, it would probably die down.

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If A & E had no knowledge of good and evil, they were morally innocent. They were morally like babies. When my first baby was extremely fussy and cried for hours, she wasn't "sinning," she was a baby who didn't feel good for reasons I could not determine. So A and E, with no knowledge of good and evil would be unable to weigh obedience to disobedience. So, it is not so much whether or not God was being mean, it's simply - was this logical? Where two choices exist, it is probable that eventually Choice B will be chosen. Even if there were literally only two humans on the planet, it was inevitable that eventually, someone would choose Choice B. Even if there were no Trickster to whisper temptations, it is still inevitable that someone, sooner or later, would eat of The Tree. See what I mean? It is illogical.

This is one area where the LDS faith diverges from most other Christian religions. We believe the garden was intended to be a temporary state--that A&E couldn't fulfill the command to "multiply and replenish" until they ate the fruit, gained a knowledge of good and evil, and became mortal. The Fall was a necessary step on a journey of eternal progression, and Eve's choice (not a sin) opened the door to mortality for God's children.

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Im not really sure why. It doesn't really address the situation we are discussing which has nothing to do with legislation and a lot to do with the idea that someone who believes in creationism is inherently unworthy of friendship.

 

I understand that no one want to be attacked for their own beliefs but there is no evidence that someone who believes in YEC is inherently more likely to attack someone for their beliefs. It's a grossly biased assumption. I can only imagine how well it woul go over if a YEC person was claiming all atheists are more likely to verbally attack them for their beliefs. Not well.

 

I don't think this is what the majority of people are saying in here.

 

In my own personal experience, I have found that people who believe in creationism, upon discovering that I do not believe in creationism, immediately end their relationship with me and my children, specifically because we do not believe in creationism. We are told, consistently, that our values are dangerous to the spiritual well being of their children.

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People spend too much energy caring what other people think and do. It improves nobody's quality of life. You know, if people stopped reacting to the YEC noise, it would probably die down.

Untrue. We MUST react to keep politicians and school boards from completely ruining any hope of scientific literacy in our nation's children.

 

It is a dangerous concept and has been proven repeatedly in this thread with many different examples of why one NEEDS to know the actual truth vs. the religious "truth".

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Untrue. We MUST react to keep politicians and school boards from completely ruining any hope of scientific literacy in our nation's children.

 

It is a dangerous concept and has been proven repeatedly in this thread with many different examples of why one NEEDS to know the actual truth vs. the religious "truth".

 

I was talking more about private individuals and screening family friends etc.  How we vote is a whole different issue.  If I screened my friends based on how they vote, I would have far fewer friends.  But that doesn't mean I don't vote my conscience.

 

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Seems like there is some talking past each other here.

 

I would not eliminate someone as a friend based on YEC or any one of the things that often goes with it. I don't get the impression that most on this thread would. What we are saying is, in the homeschooling world, (wow-that felt very HP for a sec), YEC tends to be accompanied by a lot of other things. If you can't check off the right boxes your family very quickly can find themselves on the outs. Have that happen a few times and you cannot help but notice a pattern.

 

As far as elected officials and government goes I think we have to be very vigilant. If the loudest voice is perceived as the majority we as homeschoolers, and as a society, are in trouble. Being unwilling to tolerate uber conservative religious ideals as the default in the public square is not at ALL the same as refusing to friend someone with different religious or political leanings.

 

Of course, as pp have noted, some people are just jerks. It wouldn't matter what they believed they'd find a way to be obnoxious and offensive about sharing it.

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I'm sorry. I realize I am doing a very poor job of answering the questions that you are presenting to me. That is in part because I've misunderstood what was being asked, and in part because I just did a plain old lousy job of expressing myself! I apologize, and will try to both understand you and explain myself more clearly.

 

The answers to all three of the questions asked are inextricably linked, so please bear with me as I attempt to work through all of this.

 

First, as to why a loving God would set up this situation where he ended up expelling us from paradise: the very short answer is that we left paradise of our own free will, but He provided anyone who wishes it with a way back in, through the person of His Son, Jesus Christ.

 

Second, related to the first, is there a contradiction in saying that He wanted us to obey Him but gave us the choice whether or not to do so: my answer would be absolutely not. But I think that I made a mistake in choosing the word obedience without thinking about the fact that the word (when used in this context) means something very different to me now than it used to, and may also mean something very different to me than it means to you. Christ told us very plainly what it means to obey God and to do His will: to love God and each other. This is what is meant by obedience: love. And love is something that can only be given by choice, with free will. If he had "programmed" us to act loving but not have a choice about it, then that wouldn't be real love. It wouldn't be genuine. We would just be actors in a play. It wouldn't be real. Real love can exist only in freedom, so He gave us that freedom.

 

Lastly, but again related, was what does it mean to be made in the image of God: again, the answer is love. The scriptures tell us that God is love. That is such a simple and yet profound statement. It doesn't say merely that God is capable of loving or that God sometimes loves, but God IS love. And God does not change. So God's love never fails or falters, so, no, God does not sin. When our love fails and falters, that is when we sin, or we tarnish the image of God within us. But the image is still there even if it has become blurred - He created us to be capable of great, selfless love.

 

I hope that I have managed to make at least a little bit more sense this time. Again, I apologize for my own confusion and all that I have caused. And I also apologize for taking the thread far, far away from its intended purpose.

 

Oh, and I almost forgot. I don't see why the story has to be literally, historically factual in order to convey truth about the person of God and our relationship with Him. Allegory, parables, metaphors are all useful ways of conveying information.

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A lot of people think it it is dangerous for kids to be around gay people.  I can acknowledge that some feel that way, but I don't think it's really OK for people to "shield" their kids from gay people.  Most here wouldn't dare suggest such a thing is OK.  If someone did, a lot of the people supporting "shield kids from YEC folks" would be up in arms.  But to me it is the same thing.

 

People spend too much energy caring what other people think and do.  It improves nobody's quality of life.  You know, if people stopped reacting to the YEC noise, it would probably die down.

 

Well, I'm not sure what exactly this has to do with my post because it sounds like you think people should expose their children to things they find dangerous & that can't be what you mean.

 

I don't think YEC beliefs themselves are dangerous (& I'm not sure how many people find those specific beliefs dangerous but I'm sure there are some).  But many people find that YEC in their area or that they've been exposed to have other beliefs that go along with it - specifically mysoginistic, bigoted, legalistic, etc views.  I have met these people so I know they exist.  I have no reason to believe that the people who claim to have met lots of these people are lying and I have no interested in exposing my children to such people either.  

 

In your example, I have no problem with people who shield their kids from dangerous things.  I have a huge problem with the idea that homosexuals are dangerous in any way.  I would shield my kids from people who held that belief.

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I find it amusing that on a forum where so many preach tolerance about everything, and everyone, this statement would even be made.

If we are gonna preach tolerance, why in the WORLD would we exclude as friends, people who might have a different belief system about the earth's age?!?

  

 

It was simply meant as a reply to the above. I never, ever said YEC were unworthy of friendship so please do not put words in my mouth. I also did not say anything about being attacked or attacking. My post was meant to illustrate what tolerance is, I can tolerate something or someone without letting it become a part of my life if I think it's more effort than it's worth, or if I know it's going to cause me mental anguish or whatever. Being tolerant doesn't mean we must tolerate everything, all the time. It means live and let live. No one is ever under any obligation to invite someone into their lives that they don't want in their lives. I do not shield my kids from YEC, in fact my son was best friends with one. I just have yet to meet a YEC that doesn't subscribe to other viewpoints that are not compatible with my life. So I will probably not actively pursue a friendship like that again, however, I would have no issue with my children befriending theirs or being friendly acquaintances. I'm just not going to have people in my life that tell me my family isn't valid or tell my children they're going to hell. Period. That is not intolerance. That's protecting myself and my children.

 

And by the way, atheists get flack for everything, all the time, so your comparison is false, we are used to it and it does occur.

We are told we have no morals, are going to hell, worships satan, etc. with quite a bit of frequency. We are almost always outnumbered as well.

 

Im not really sure why. It doesn't really address the situation we are discussing which has nothing to do with legislation and a lot to do with the idea that someone who believes in creationism is inherently unworthy of friendship.

I understand that no one want to be attacked for their own beliefs but there is no evidence that someone who believes in YEC is inherently more likely to attack someone for their beliefs. It's a grossly biased assumption. I can only imagine how well it woul go over if a YEC person was claiming all atheists are more likely to verbally attack them for their beliefs. Not well.

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