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Are research papers becoming a "dinosaur"?


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Laura, I do think that IB exams, especially at the higher level, are significantly tougher than AP exams. As an example, students from my IB biology class regularly took both the IB and AP exams. There were several every year who scored 5's on the AP, but in the years I was there only one student scored a 7 on the IB high exam for that subject. We had several 7's every year on the high level physics and math exams, but those classes were infamous for the massive amounts of homework assigned every week. To do well in the IB STEM track required huge amounts of study and work. A humanities focus was still work but I don't recall the same level of intensity in those classes. I had a mixed plate as I took high level biology, history, and English and standard level French, chemistry, and math. For me at least the lower level chemistry class was harder than the higher level English and history classes.

 

The school where I did the IB program was in Europe but it was an American international school. My brother did the IB program at a school in a different country that was not tied to American instructional models and they were assigned very little homework, whereas I had hours every night. Overall students at his school did not perform as well, but those who were motivated to study could pull off good results. Maybe it's a difference between assigning lots of homework to force kids to study or presenting the classes but leaving study decisions up to the kids. To be honest, I'm not sure the first approach is necessarily better though it would depend on the individual. I struggled with the amount of outside work assigned and was constantly behind, but I am convinced a lot of those assignments did nor really help my learning. On the other hand, I was fascinated by biology and did a lot of studying and reading on my own from non-school resources. I was the one student who achieved a 7 on the biology exam.

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No indeed - I can only speak for the system I know.  And the IB is not used in all schools throughout Europe - each country will have its own qualifications and may or may not choose to replace those with the IB.

 

L

 

And I'll admit I have no personal knowledge of IB.  ;)

 

It is interesting to compare via what we do know and see though.  I enjoy reading of others experiences.  It just bothers me whenever I hear a blanket statement of X being so much better than Y, then I look at the exchange students coming in vs our top students and I just don't see it happening as a rule.

 

Almost a rule is that exchange students are better in languages though.  I will forever wish our schools would start languages at an earlier age when brains are more open to it, but I keep hearing the argument "there's no need for languages at all in our country" far too often from the other side.  Unfortunately, for many Americans who don't even have passports and with English becoming such a world language, it's difficult to win in such a debate - esp if school funding and resources are then added in to it.  If a neighboring state were to speak a different language - multiple neighboring states, it would be different I guess.

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It is interesting to compare via what we do know and see though.  I enjoy reading of others experiences.  It just bothers me whenever I hear a blanket statement of X being so much better than Y, then I look at the exchange students coming in vs our top students and I just don't see it happening as a rule.

 

 

I didn't intend to talk in terms of 'better than' but rather 'different to', so that two systems may not mesh well.  I appreciate the breadth of the US system and think that, for children with wide and diverse interests, it may well be better than the more concentrated UK one.  Focus has worked well for Calvin; Hobbes has a wider range of talents.  The continuing breadth into the first year of university is something that England also lacks, and Scotland only allows partially.

 

I only started talking in terms of levels (rather than about difference in timetable) when asked about it.  Didn't mean to get on my high horse....

 

L

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Didn't mean to get on my high horse....

 

L

 

FWIW, I didn't think that you were...

 

There is a huge difference in this country in education available at public schools.  No one person can see it all.  I expect (via exchange students who are a bit biased in that they tend to be among top students in their local areas) that the same is true in many countries.

 

And certainly, different systems benefit different types of students.  I definitely won't argue against that!

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It's hard to compare, I'm sure. ....

 

I checked the weight that the UK common application system gives to top marks in an IB subject exam vs. top marks in a US AP exam. It gives 130 points for the IB subject and 120 for the AP subject (AP physics B+C). Neither qualification is native to the UK, so it's unlikely that there is nationalistic bias involved. It does suggest that, for UK universities at least, the IB exams are considered to be higher level.

 

L

I personally don't like LoF and don't think it compares to what we use, so I won't comment on that.

 

But, I still don't get the physics comparison. Physics B is not a pre-req for the 2 physics C exams. Both physics C courses are each only 1 semester. The level of physics taught in many cal-based physics courses at the university level require cal as a pre-req, not a co-req. It just is not that possible to get that "advanced" in physics w/o the math to support the course. Alg-based physics does not take more than a yr to master. 4-6 yrs of physics in an IB program cannot possibly equate to (quoting your word here) "cramming" it into 2 yrs of high school physics. 2 yrs of high school physics covers pretty much all the ground you can cover without math beyond what typical advanced high school students take.

 

I am not making a commentary on IB vs. AP. I know nothing about IB at all. Just sharing that physics does not require 4-6 yrs in middle and high school to master pre-2nd yr college physics material.

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I come from a place with 5 years of physics instruction. It was just more spread out and gradual.

Here is a description of the system if anybody us curious. Grade 11 was the final year.

 

The content of physics in class 7 includes physics phenomena, the structure of matter, interaction of bodies, pressure, work, power and energy. In class 8 students study thermal, electrical, electro-magnetic and light phenomena. In class 9 students study kinematics, conservation laws, and waves. In class 10 they study molecular physics, and electrodynamics, followed in class 11 with a continuation of electrodynamics, as well as electromagnetic waves, and quantum physics. As a part of the physics curriculum, in the last year of school, students also take a course in astronomy, which introduces a contemporary view of the universe, focusing on the practical use of astronomy.

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I personally don't like LoF and don't think it compares to what we use, so I won't comment on that.

 

But, I still don't get the physics comparison. Physics B is not a pre-req for the 2 physics C exams. Both physics C courses are each only 1 semester. The level of physics taught in many cal-based physics courses at the university level require cal as a pre-req, not a co-req. It just is not that possible to get that "advanced" in physics w/o the math to support the course. Alg-based physics does not take more than a yr to master. 4-6 yrs of physics in an IB program cannot possibly equate to (quoting your word here) "cramming" it into 2 yrs of high school physics. 2 yrs of high school physics covers pretty much all the ground you can cover without math beyond what typical advanced high school students take.

 

I am not making a commentary on IB vs. AP. I know nothing about IB at all. Just sharing that physics does not require 4-6 yrs in middle and high school to master pre-2nd yr college physics material.

 

We are getting way over my head in discussing the details of physics - I really don't know the answer to your questions.  I've already given all the 'evidence' I have to support my hunch.  However, if calc (in US terms) is, indeed, completed at 16  (15 for the brightest pupils) in the UK, then it will be in place before starting the physics IB course.

 

Maize has posted her much more relevant personal experience of people getting top marks on the AP science exams, and the same people not getting top marks on the IB higher science exams.  This website also suggests that APs do not represent as detailed a knowledge base in science as the equivalent UK exams and the IB.  I don't know if there is any underlying prejudice involved in this statement.  ETA: However it would be strange for the university to be scaring away American students deliberately, as overseas applicants pay much higher fees than residents do.

 

L

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To be honest, I'm not sure that the IB is the best fit for the US education system, unless an individual school curriculum is redesigned to fit. I was puzzled for a long time about stories of massive workloads from US students using the IB. Calvin has been busy, but not that busy (until the period just before final exams). Then I considered the structure of the IB and how it compared to the UK and (standard) US education systems.

 

For the IB, you need to take three subjects at higher level and three subjects at standard level, plus some bits and bobs. To take Calvin as an example: he took English, history and Latin at higher level; biology, maths studies and French at standard level.

 

When he started the IB diploma course, his classmates (aged 16) at school had already studied both Latin and French for at least four years and were already at (roughly) SAT subject test level. Biology had also been studied for four years already.

 

If he had been a STEM-interested student, his subjects would have been something like Maths, chemistry and physics at higher level; English, French and economics at standard level. He would already have had four years of chemistry, physics and French.

 

If you compare that to the US system, with late acquisition of foreign languages and a delayed start to specialised science studies as the norm, then the two-year IB programme is going to be at least twice as intensive for many US pupils as it is for their UK equivalents: they will be cramming four to six years of physics into two years, for example.

 

L

Here, they have middle schools that start preparing students to feed into IB, so you ideally opt into the track fairly early on.

 

DH actually wasn't called upon to write much in the way of research papers as an undergrad (English lit major) which has been a problem in his grad school application process.

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We are getting way over my head in discussing the details of physics - I really don't know the answer to your questions.  I've already given all the 'evidence' I have to support my hunch.  However, if calc (in US terms) is, indeed, completed at 16  (15 for the brightest pupils) in the UK, then it will be in place before starting the physics IB course.

 

Maize has posted her much more relevant personal experience of people getting top marks on the AP science exams, and the same people not getting top marks on the IB higher science exams.  This website also suggests that APs do not represent as detailed a knowledge base in science as the equivalent UK exams and the IB.  I don't know if there is any underlying prejudice involved in this statement.  ETA: However it would be strange for the university to be scaring away American students deliberately, as overseas applicants pay much higher fees than residents do.

 

L

 

Our local IB program has students take Biology Honors, then AP Biology and then the next year they take IB Biology HL, so I'm assuming the AP class is not as rigorous as the IB. (Though we are just starting out with high school and IB so I'm just learning as I go along….I'm not sure what the differences are between the HL and SL courses, for example)

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Our local IB program has students take Biology Honors, then AP Biology and then the next year they take IB Biology HL, so I'm assuming the AP class is not as rigorous as the IB. (Though we are just starting out with high school and IB so I'm just learning as I go along….I'm not sure what the differences are between the HL and SL courses, for example)

 

In my experience, the IB exams even at the standard level (used to be called sub level) were more difficult than any of the AP exams. I cannot remember enough details to compare content coverage specifically, but I do know that IB classes prepared me well for AP exams, I am not confident that most AP classes would prepare a candidate for the corresponding IB exam. 

 

AP exams relied much more heavily on multiple choice questions, IB exams included significantly more free response and essay type questions. Some subjects such as second language exams also included an in-person oral exam (as compared to a short taped oral section for the AP). In addition, final IB scores in some subjects included work done prior to the official exam, such as lab report books for Biology.  On the whole I think IB is the more rigorous program, it was after all designed to be an acceptable substitute for the national high school graduation/college entrance exams and requirements of many different countries and so must at least approximate the most rigorous of these.

 

The quality of a particular class will depend in large part on the teacher, so I do not doubt that some AP classes provide better education than some IB classes. Also, students are able to take more than 6 AP classes if they are motivated and attend a school where many AP's are offered; it is also possible to self-study for and take AP but not IB exams, which can be a useful option.

 

Sample IB exam papers can be found here: http://www.ibo.org/diploma/assessment/exampapers/ (reading through these makes me glad I am past that particular challenge!)

 

Samples of AP exam questions can be found through the individual subject links here:

http://apcentral.collegeboard.com/apc/public/exam/exam_information/index.html

 

A summary of content covered in the various IB math exam levels:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IB_Group_5_subjects

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