"why am I such a slow learner?

[Ravin]

My DD asked this yesterday. I had to tell her I don't know. Testing by PS in third and by psychoeduc. Eval last year showed she's average at grade level.

 

She's trying to adjust to brick and mortar school. It's not going well ...

[IsabelC]

She's trying to adjust to brick and mortar school. It's not going well ...

 

Could that be the reasons she is slow (or perceives herself as slow)?

 

Other kids are learning lesson content.

 

She is learning lesson content.

Plus she may not have the same previous knowledge that the other kids are building on (unless she was following the school curriculum at home).

Plus she is learning how to cope with being in school, which is quite a complex setting to be in.

Plus she is learning how to learn in school.

 

So, slower because she has much more to learn than her classmates who started 5 or 6 years ago?

 

Sorry it's not going very well so far. But it's probably a massive change for her to start school in grade 6, so hopefully things will improve as she gets more used to it.

[Tanaqui]

If she really tests as average, you might point out that many of the other students ALSO think they're stupid or slow or dumb (or whatever negative term they want to use). She just doesn't know because they sit in the back and try not to call attention to themselves and never, ever admit that they don't understand what's going on. (Or think everybody else understands it better.)

 

Of course, nobody ever really believes that, even though it's obviously the truth.

[OneStepAtATime]

My DD asked this yesterday. I had to tell her I don't know. Testing by PS in third and by psychoeduc. Eval last year showed she's average at grade level.

 

She's trying to adjust to brick and mortar school. It's not going well ...

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

 

Is it possible to get hold of the materials they are using at school and maybe jump ahead a little to give her some confidence and time to process the information?  Is there a particular subject she is bogging down in, or is it just the overall change?

[Heathermomster]

When DS sat in a classroom, he would pre-listen to literature books that were being covered. One teacher gave us a heads up and DS became used to figuring out ahead of time what was coming up so that he was prepared. We also had all of his text books in audio format, and I purchased books to keep at home so that he wasn't slogging them everyday.

 

I have explained to DS that he needs to know thyself and learn to manage the areas he struggles. Accept the issues, and work a way either around or over them.

[PeterPan]

What was her processing speed? If her processing speed %ile is lower than her IQ, she might feel slow compared to what she feels like she ought to be.  Just a thought.  

 

It's a new situation, so she's going to have a lot of feelings to work through.  

[kbutton]

:grouphug:  :grouphug:

 

Agreeing with all of the above. If you have the test results, you may be able to piece together a larger story if you see areas of high and low scores in those results. If she's average without much deviation, and you trust those results, I would guess this is just a big adjustment to school.

 

We all measure ourselves in some way, and maybe being at home has sheltered her from that up to a point since there are maybe fewer comparisons to be made with others her age. If she is younger than her classmates, that can be a big part of it. And getting on the same page with routines, etc. is grueling. I switched from a tiny private school to public school in 8th grade, and it's serious culture shock.

[SandyKC]

Chiming in with OhElizabeth... It could very well be that she has a slow processing speed and school psychologists seldom do a **comprehensive** workup.  Often, they don't even test to see what a child's processing speed is!  They'll test for the child's IQ/aptitude and achievement levels, along with a few tests in reading, writing, and math, but they don't do the sorts of tests that neuropsychologists do.  There can be issues with processing speed, executive functioning, attention, perception, etc., that are COMPLETELY ignored or missed by school psychologists.  In such cases, a child can be "average" but still have neurological issues that affect learning.

 

If you have an evaluation report, check in there to see if they evaluated for processing speed to see what it is. Regardless, if your DD finds her processing speed too slow for her, you could have her work on a cognitive enhancement type of program.  I have several listed on my website at: http://learningabledkids.com/learning_disability_ld/memory_processing_speed_brain_based.htm with Brainware Safari and Lumosity being two of my favs.

[Guest]

.

[PeterPan]

Chiming in with OhElizabeth... It could very well be that she has a slow processing speed and school psychologists seldom do a **comprehensive** workup.  Often, they don't even test to see what a child's processing speed is!  They'll test for the child's IQ/aptitude and achievement levels, along with a few tests in reading, writing, and math, but they don't do the sorts of tests that neuropsychologists do.  There can be issues with processing speed, executive functioning, attention, perception, etc., that are COMPLETELY ignored or missed by school psychologists.  In such cases, a child can be "average" but still have neurological issues that affect learning.

 

If you have an evaluation report, check in there to see if they evaluated for processing speed to see what it is. Regardless, if your DD finds her processing speed too slow for her, you could have her work on a cognitive enhancement type of program.  I have several listed on my website at: http://learningabledkids.com/learning_disability_ld/memory_processing_speed_brain_based.htm with Brainware Safari and Lumosity being two of my favs.

Sandy, do you have any evidence Brainware Safari and Lumosity affect processing speed?  And is it permanent?  The only time we've had people on the boards here post with documented processing speed improvements was with Interactive Metronome, and even then it was somebody going from single digits to mid-30s (percentile).  The people who had higher function who did IM didn't seem to get the bump.  

 

That's not research-based evidence, so that's why I was asking (informally, no evidence needed) if there is actual evidence of those other two affecting processing speed and whether the affect is permanent or fades when they stop doing the tasks.  

 

And for the op, you can get *visual* processing speed to improve with VT, but that's a sub skill.  Doesn't improve how they process math, sigh.  Does FastForWord affect how quickly they process auditory input or only how accurately?

[Princess Ariel]

I have no advice but wish her the best. I am sure it is a huge transition for her and it will take time.

[SandyKC]

Sandy, do you have any evidence Brainware Safari and Lumosity affect processing speed?  And is it permanent?  The only time we've had people on the boards here post with documented processing speed improvements was with Interactive Metronome, and even then it was somebody going from single digits to mid-30s (percentile).  The people who had higher function who did IM didn't seem to get the bump.  

 

That's not research-based evidence, so that's why I was asking (informally, no evidence needed) if there is actual evidence of those other two affecting processing speed and whether the affect is permanent or fades when they stop doing the tasks.  

 

And for the op, you can get *visual* processing speed to improve with VT, but that's a sub skill.  Doesn't improve how they process math, sigh.  Does FastForWord affect how quickly they process auditory input or only how accurately?

 

Yes, there is quite a bit of research evidence for both Brainware Safari and Lumosity in regard to positive improvements in processing speed. You can visit http://www.mybrainware.com/safari/research and http://www.lumosity.com/hcp/research/ - Those are just the research studies posted on their own sites and there is a lot more to be found just by searching in general. I've read research through Galileo (a research hub provided by our public library).   As to whether the changes are permanent, I haven't personally seen any longevity studies, but that doesn't mean there aren't any--just that I haven't specifically gone looking to see how permanent the changes are or are not.

 

My suspicion would be that the changes would be permanent to a degree. My reasoning would be that brain plasticity is proven and undertaking cognitive exercises helps build new neural pathways.  Those pathways won't evaporate overnight, so I would guess the improvements would be relatively stable at the level of achievement obtained and practiced long enough to actually build those pathways.  One successful attempt won't necessarily add to the neural net, but the more a person practices, the more permanent it would seem like the connections would become.

 

Does that make sense? It's just my logic and an interesting question!  You might be able to find an answer to the question by delving into the research.  If you find anything, let us know! :-D

[PeterPan]

Thanks Sandy, I'll go read some more!  I think when I first looked at cognitive therapies I was looking only at working memory gains, and they kept talking % improvement, which frankly when building on a small foundation wouldn't be very much, lol.  I know my dd's ability to process VISUALLY increased dramatically with VT.  For instance she's BLAZING fast at SET.  But then give her something which requires more internal processing and crunching (retrieve a word, conjugate verbs for a sentence, etc.) and it's SO slow, oy.  So miracle cures are always welcome.  :D

[Ravin]

This isn't something new, it's been an ongoing issue since second grade. With the testing by the school psychologist, a few delays (working memory and processing speed) were identified, but the school said there were no services they could offer get because she wasn't at least three grade levels behind in an area. The testing last year was at the university teaching clinic, which was done by a post-PhD student in clinical training overseen by a fully licensed and trained faculty supervisor. The clinic has a very good rep and does a full psychoeducational evaluation (which is less comprehensive than a neuropsychological eval but more than a school psychologist does).

 

She is on the young side for the grade. But she felt like this even working at her own pace, one on one.

 

So far, she seems to be adjusting, I think. This week is going better than last week.

[kbutton]

This isn't something new, it's been an ongoing issue since second grade. With the testing by the school psychologist, a few delays (working memory and processing speed) were identified, but the school said there were no services they could offer get because she wasn't at least three grade levels behind in an area. The testing last year was at the university teaching clinic, which was done by a post-PhD student in clinical training overseen by a fully licensed and trained faculty supervisor. The clinic has a very good rep and does a full psychoeducational evaluation (which is less comprehensive than a neuropsychological eval but more than a school psychologist does).

 

She is on the young side for the grade. But she felt like this even working at her own pace, one on one.

 

So far, she seems to be adjusting, I think. This week is going better than last week.

 

If she doesn't qualify for an IEP, you might see if she can get a section 504 plan that allows her extra time on tests, etc. I don't know a lot about them, but I am learning that a paper trail is important, and that you can get some accommodations with a 504. 

[SandyKC]

This isn't something new, it's been an ongoing issue since second grade. With the testing by the school psychologist, a few delays (working memory and processing speed) were identified, but the school said there were no services they could offer get because she wasn't at least three grade levels behind in an area. The testing last year was at the university teaching clinic, which was done by a post-PhD student in clinical training overseen by a fully licensed and trained faculty supervisor. The clinic has a very good rep and does a full psychoeducational evaluation (which is less comprehensive than a neuropsychological eval but more than a school psychologist does).

 

She is on the young side for the grade. But she felt like this even working at her own pace, one on one.

 

So far, she seems to be adjusting, I think. This week is going better than last week.

 

That is actually such a WRONG thing for the school to tell you.  A child does NOT have to be three grade levels behind before receiving services.  You might find the article and references I put in this article (it is written about kids with dyslexia, but item #2 "Stinking Thinking" pertains directly to what the school told you.  I hear it a LOT!

Four Public School Practices that Equate to Educational Neglect for Kids with Dyslexia

[PeterPan]

That is actually such a WRONG thing for the school to tell you.  A child does NOT have to be three grade levels behind before receiving services.  You might find the article and references I put in this article (it is written about kids with dyslexia, but item #2 "Stinking Thinking" pertains directly to what the school told you.  I hear it a LOT!

Four Public School Practices that Equate to Educational Neglect for Kids with Dyslexia

I read through your article.  That's interesting and sort of the position I think we're going to be in, where we're right on the cusp, seeing the disabilities (I suspect) but without failure to make it glaringly obvious.  Obviously I don't WANT him to fail, I want to intervene.  But I also want the right words, the IEP if appropriate, etc., so I can make sure I'm doing everything I should be and getting access to resources.  So is it basically uncommon for a ps to acknowledge dyslexia before they've officially failed K5 or 1st?  

 

Your comments on retention are interesting too.  With his fall b-day, we just decided to use the lower grade.  However he's not like any K5er you'll meet, lol.  He's way out there with content knowledge, writes his name but a bit wobbly, and doesn't get right numbers on his fingers.  He's everything from K4 to 3rd grade in one boy!  Anyways, you're right that giving him that extra year where I called him K4 when the SLP was saying to do 2nd grade work with him (content, thought process) didn't really help. He's still way behind and struggling on some things and blisteringly ahead on others.  Crazy.  But I need a graduation date and a social answer, so the lower grade is what we'll use.  Even then, I'm not sure it's accurate.  (like we could almost go a year lower if you looked at his maturity)  Crazy.

[Ravin]

Yes, well, I live in Arizona, whose statistical track record speaks volumes. Parents who can afford it get tutoring. Parents who can't and who can't make up the difference at home have limited options to help their kids.

 

After another evening of overwhelming homework that kept her busy until bedtime, I emailed her social studies teacher. He also emphasized that he recognized a difference between having difficulty and avoiding work.

 

I suspect language arts will be next, depending on the feedback DD has for that today.

[Mom22ns]

This isn't something new, it's been an ongoing issue since second grade. With the testing by the school psychologist, a few delays (working memory and processing speed) were identified, but the school said there were no services they could offer get because she wasn't at least three grade levels behind in an area. The testing last year was at the university teaching clinic, which was done by a post-PhD student in clinical training overseen by a fully licensed and trained faculty supervisor. The clinic has a very good rep and does a full psychoeducational evaluation (which is less comprehensive than a neuropsychological eval but more than a school psychologist does).

 

She is on the young side for the grade. But she felt like this even working at her own pace, one on one.

 

So far, she seems to be adjusting, I think. This week is going better than last week.

 

Agreeing with Sandy, you need to look into your rights here. Ds was never even one grade level below on anything but had an IEP while he was in ps and would if he returned in spite of incredibly high test scores. He would because his processing speed tests two standard deviations below his verbal Comprehension. Nothing is below average, that doesn't matter. He never got below a B in public school. There are kids in gifted programs getting straight As that have IEPs. Your school district needs a legal lesson. Go to http://wrightslaw.com and begin reading. Your daughter may be ok, now, but if she has processing speed and working memory issues, things will get much harder for her in a few years when learning ramps up. You will either have to be prepared to go back to homeschooling or to advocate for her.

[SandyKC]

  So is it basically uncommon for a ps to acknowledge dyslexia before they've officially failed K5 or 1st?  

 

Your comments on retention are interesting too.  With his fall b-day, we just decided to use the lower grade.  However he's not like any K5er you'll meet, lol.  He's way out there with content knowledge, writes his name but a bit wobbly, and doesn't get right numbers on his fingers.  He's everything from K4 to 3rd grade in one boy!  Anyways, you're right that giving him that extra year where I called him K4 when the SLP was saying to do 2nd grade work with him (content, thought process) didn't really help. He's still way behind and struggling on some things and blisteringly ahead on others.  Crazy.  But I need a graduation date and a social answer, so the lower grade is what we'll use.  Even then, I'm not sure it's accurate.  (like we could almost go a year lower if you looked at his maturity)  Crazy.

 

Not only is it relatively uncommon for a public school to acknowledge dyslexia before a child has failed, they often ignore it completely unless a child is totally failing.  It's a RARE school that does as Momto2Ns school did and actually acknowledges that a child can be 2E!!  Yet MANY kids with disabilities are also gifted in some areas or in general, but the schools tend to focus only on the disability aspect.  

 

They put the specific language in the laws saying a child is eligible for services "even though the child has not failed or been retained in a course or grade, and is advancing from grade to grade" because of the common practice schools have of neglecting a child's educational needs until the child is so far behind that he won't catch up.  GRRRRR... Don't even get me started on my soapbox!! LOL!

 

Agreeing WHOLE-HEARTEDLY with Momto2Ns that legal action is needed when schools go as far as to let a child get THREE years behind before helping the poor kid.  It's bad enough when they wait for a child to get one or two years behind, but three is really BAD--even among schools that hang on to the "failure first" mindset.

 

Waiting due to a fall birthday is a bit different from retention.  My oldest has a summer birthday and we gave him an extra year before starting Kindergarten too.  That's a bit different than the school's practice of retaining an already failing child in order to let him "catch-up".  If the child is already of age, already failing, and already showing signs of needing help, then waiting another year to provide that help is just silly--not to mention--proven by research to be an ineffective practice for the vast majority of kids.

 

One of the GREAT things about homeschooling is that it serves a kid who is all over the place perfectly!! You can have him doing 7th grade science and 2nd grade reading!!  We were very much in the same kind of boat.  You can teach each subject where the child actually IS and move forward as fast as he is able, which is how my DS was able to finish off his freshman college requirements before he even finished high school.  Looking at him in the 5th grade--as a non-reader--falling behind in everything, the school pretty much checked him off their list and gave up on him.  When I was able to get him home and FEED his love for science, and really work on his reading, the school game changed dramatically.  I wish ALL Learning Abled Kids could have the opportunities our kids have!!

[Mom22ns]

As an aside Ravin, both of my kids who test highly gifted, believed they were stupid as long as they were in ps. My oldest, probably mostly because of his slow processing speed. My youngest, who was always quick, first at everything, perfect in teacher's eyes, and popular with the other kids, I have no idea why, but she still believed it. I think it was just because some things didn't click and when she didn't understand there was no opportunity to fix the problem. Tell your dd everyone, even the kids who are doing the best, feel the same way she does.