So disturbed by this shooting, and the aftermath

[SadieMarie]

The shooting isn't really the only issue here.  I'd say the absolutely disgusting and - in my opinion - clearly racist response by the police force has become the major issue.  The amount of repression and violence used in response to public protest is, quite simply, unconscionable.

 

 

I have wondered how things might have been different had Clive Bundy and his supporters been black, or brown for that matter.

[SadieMarie]

The police in Ferguson have a history.   I think this shooting was the tipping point.  If they did not already have that history the reaction might have been different, maybe not good, but not as extreme as it has been.  I think this has been building and the militarization of the police has just thrown gasoline on the whole situation.  So I guess my point is that this shooting and the reaction to it are part of a much larger sequence of events than that one night when Michael Brown was shot to death.    

 

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/08/15/the-day-ferguson-cops-were-caught-in-a-bloody-lie.html

 

And if you want a really right on example of thuggish behavior this link will give it you.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

 Police should practice defensive policing, not offensive policing, except under the most dire of circumstances.

 

He should be held accountable for the fact that he killed another person. if there are extenuating circumstances, they can be taken into account during trial.

 

And yes, as part of a police force that has failed to establish trust in the community, he is accountable, along with others, for that too.

 

Police have many necessary privileges in dealing with citizens. They have many extra responsibilities in direct proportion to their privileges. If they fail in these responsibilities, they should be held accountable.

 

Under our legal system, if the "extenuating circumstances" are severe enough, there shouldn't be a trial.  You also don't know if he did/not practice defensive policing or of he was justified. Neither do I, and we won't until the investigations are complete.

[Susan in TX]

It isn't only unarmed black men who get shot and killed by police http://blogs.dallasobserver.com/unfairpark/2014/03/duncanville_man_shot_to_death.php This happened in my city just a block away from where my daughter lives. It bothered me when I first heard about it. There wasn't much press coverage and it was all hushed up by the police department. Something seemed fishy about it. I tend to be one that gives police the benefit of the doubt but as things like this happen more and more I just don't know.

 

Susan in TX

[stripe]

This is what I'm talking about. Note that I do NOT agree with all of the above links! I was trying to give a wide sampling.  But I'm certainly not the first person to bring this up.  There was a big thing about it in the media earlier this year. 

Okay, that's even more disturbing.

 

My point was even if we limit to just official communication -- reports, press conferences, trials -- and the word "thug" is never used, that really doesn't tell us anything about how people are actually speaking in more casual communication, like in the lunch room, or in the squad car. Those are the things that reveal mindset, not officialspeak.

[stripe]

In Ferguson MO, excluding Michael Brown, how many times has an unarmed black man been shot to death by a white cop in the past 5 years?

Here's why this may be hard to know:

 

"No agency appears to track the number of police shootings or killings of unarmed victims in a systematic, comprehensive way."

 

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/08/police-shootings-michael-brown-ferguson-black-men

 

8/15 edit to that article

"USA Today reported that on average there were 96 cases of a white police officer killing a black person each year between 2006 and 2012, based on justifiable homicides reported to the FBI by local police."

This links to http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/08/14/police-killings-data/14060357/

[plumshadow]

Here's why this may be hard to know:

 

"No agency appears to track the number of police shootings or killings of unarmed victims in a systematic, comprehensive way."

 

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/08/police-shootings-michael-brown-ferguson-black-men

 

8/15 edit to that article

"USA Today reported that on average there were 96 cases of a white police officer killing a black person each year between 2006 and 2012, based on justifiable homicides reported to the FBI by local police."

This links to http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/08/14/police-killings-data/14060357/

Wow....people track everything from how long babies look at dolls compared to trucks, to how often students experience boredom in class, but not one system is in place for those statistics......no one thinks that may be important information?

[poppy]

It is a fashionable word right now (sad state we are in eh?) There is a t-shirt company that is run by a mom that changed it's name to Thug Life T Shirts. They actually have cute t shirts. I've also heard it used to describe the government as in Thugocracy (and that was way before the Tea Party decided to take it as their own). 

 

Tupac had a Thug Life tattoo. Rihanna got one as tribute. It's a thing.

His stood for "The Hate U Give Little Infants F____s Everyone". Basically saying hate plants seeds that grow to more hate.

[CaffeineDiary]

I'm not talking about the use of the word thug.  In fact, I used the word "animals" while describing those people who are victimizing innocent residents of Ferguson, many of whom are nearly too scared to leave their homes, and certainly are sweating out the nights. 

 

While I agree their actions are awful and that that "victimizing innocent residents of Ferguson" is an accurate description of what they are doing, I do think we should probably avoid using the word "animals" to refer to the police. 

 

 

:patriot:

[ChocolateReignRemix]

OK, CR. You win. Your narrative is correct. Feel free to be snarky about this post too.

 

Excuse me?

 

[Lisbeth]

I think perhaps if police can't do their jobs safely, then they should pull out and leave the community to their own devices. If you can't say no within a relationship, you eventually have to say no TO the relationship. I would not be a police officer if I dealt with violent criminals day in and out, risking my life, and felt I couldn't defend myself against harm or death without having to go into hiding to protect my family.

 

It is a thankless job. They should all quit and go somewhere they are wanted.

[SadieMarie]

I think perhaps if police can't do their jobs safely, then they should pull out and leave the community to their own devices. If you can't say no within a relationship, you eventually have to say no TO the relationship. I would not be a police officer if I dealt with violent criminals day in and out, risking my life, and felt I couldn't defend myself against harm or death without having to go into hiding to protect my family.

 

It is a thankless job. They should all quit and go somewhere they are wanted.

 

I think they should quit too.  A department that allows a man who is mistakenly arrested to be beaten rather than released and then charges him for destruction of property because he got blood on their uniforms, yeah, don't think anyone is going to miss them.  

[maize]

OK, total bunny trail here: according to the OED, the word Thug originated in India where it referred to a member of an association of professional robbers and murderers who strangled their victims.

 

Who knew?!?

[AlmiraGulch]

While I agree their actions are awful and that that "victimizing innocent residents of Ferguson" is an accurate description of what they are doing, I do think we should probably avoid using the word "animals" to refer to the police.

 

 

:patriot:

 

I wasn't talking about the police. I was referring to the rioters and looters ( not to be confused with the protesters, who are exercising their legal rights to gather and protest peacefully, and who I fully support).

 

ETA:  Oh, wait...you knew that.  I see what you did there now.  I'm a little slow on the uptake this evening!  Duh, me.  

[AlmiraGulch]

I think perhaps if police can't do their jobs safely, then they should pull out and leave the community to their own devices. If you can't say no within a relationship, you eventually have to say no TO the relationship. I would not be a police officer if I dealt with violent criminals day in and out, risking my life, and felt I couldn't defend myself against harm or death without having to go into hiding to protect my family.

 

It is a thankless job. They should all quit and go somewhere they are wanted.

 

What you're failing to recognize is that there are thousands of residents of the city of Ferguson who have nothing to do with perpetuating what you're seeing on the news, right?  Because what they want, or at least the people I know who live there, is for peace to be restored, and to be able to sleep in their beds at night without fearing a break-ins and vandalism.  They want their kids to go back to school.  The residents deserve police protection.  You don't leave them to the devices of the rioters.  

[Farrar]

Police and military experts all seem to agree that many of the basic tactics used by the police in Ferguson were proven to be ineffective, were designed to escalate the situation, and were just generally out of touch with modern policing.  I've heard emotional appeals on their behalf, but I have yet to see any experts analyze their actual tactics and behavior and say that's best practices.  Quite the contrary.  I'm so glad that people become cops, that they risk their lives to protect the people in their communities, that the rule of law is important in this country.  But that doesn't mean I'll defend when cops defy the law or when they make a situation in a community worse.  It's because I value good police that I find this police department's actions so indefensible.  I don't really get the emotional appeals on their behalf simply based on a "support the police" mentality.  It seems to me that the police community as a whole should be the first to condemn their actions.

[idnib]

Police and military experts all seem to agree that many of the basic tactics used by the police in Ferguson were proven to be ineffective, were designed to escalate the situation, and were just generally out of touch with modern policing. 

 

Asking anyone, just quoting this for context....

 

Forgetting about costs for purposes of this discussion, how do we proactively find the "other Fergusons" and provide them with the information and training Ferguson will receive now that they're in this situation? I wonder if there are metrics (demographics of age/race/family size/income/city size) or questions which could be developed to determine law enforcement attitudes and attitudes towards law enforcement to determine potential hotspots.

[FO4UR]

Where would you get that I'm saying you're not knowing right from wrong because you're white? Confused here.

I was saying we can't look at the Ferguson situation without thinking about race.  MLK sure as heck was not colorblind . Black men can't be colorblind in our society, in 1955 or today. (I was going to say "that privledge" but stopped myself, to be polite.)

 

 

 

I was referring to the MLK who said...

 

"I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character..."

[albeto.]

.

[SadieMarie]

.

It would protect the police too when questions arise.

[SadieMarie]

What happened to Albeto's post? Weird. It was about cameras.

[Slojo]

This is not the way it's done in other countries.  This is not always the way it's done in the military.  If this is really the philosophy of police departments in this nation, then I feel sad for our country.  It means that situations like this one, which are sadly common, are more likely to turn deadly when they don't have to.  There are ways to train people to shoot to disarm, not shoot to kill.

 

Many of the attitudes in this thread have made me pretty sad.  The whole situation makes me feel sad and outraged and hopeless.  If I, as a privileged white middle class American feel hopeless and disempowered when I think about what can be done about this, I can't even begin to imagine approaching this issue as an African-American.

 

 

Thanks for this. I don't feel hopeless, but I do feel very concerned about the "empathy" divide in understanding/caring about the life circumstances that this incident clearly brings to light. This is a community in which relations between the police and the African American population have long been strained -- a community that often does not feel "served and protected."  Not sure how one can simultaneously "serve and protect" and also refer to people as "animals."  Not that every cop expressed that sentiment, but that this department seems to support a culture in which that comment can stand without a whole lot of pushback. There is evidence and a long-standing sense that the police in this area -- as an accepted culture - harbor unchecked biases against African Americans. I did a fellowship for a year in St. Louis 15 years ago and was warned about North St. Louis county as an African American. 

 

In some of these posts and in some attitudes generally, it is as if some people lack the ability to see others' pain, There was an interesting - yet troubling bit of research on the ability to recognize pain in people one perceives as different than themselves -- bottom line, the more difference you see (consciously or unconsciously - they applied the implicit bias test because people aren't honest about their biases), the less likely you are to view events/circumstances that would otherwise be seen pretty objectively as painful (a terminal illness, the passing of a loved one) as painful to those "others" as they would be for you. You begin instead to suggest how and why the pain just isn't "that bad" or relevant for those see as different than you. 

 

So we get into these inane discussions about just how "thuggish" this boy might have been, and whether we could see if money was or was not put on the counter, etc -- and lose a bit of our humanity in the debate. There is a problem with how black young men are perceived, there is a troubling history of law enforcement getting away with things in black communities that would be considered unconscionable in white communities, there is a problem with the "talk" that every black parent has to have with their kid about being stopped by the police -- and that some people don't even see it or don't see it as pain troubles me deeply. Even if you don't quite understand it, do you even recognize it as pain? Did someone not hold this person that some so easily see as a "punk" and a "thug" as a baby? Did you not hear his mother call him "Mike-Mike?" Is there not a bit of you what wonders how do we get from unarmed kid (with no priors) to six shots fatally dead/body left on the street for hours? 

 

What do you see when you see protesters marching - not the looters - but the people who actually think that something's amiss when an unarmed teen ends up dead? Do you see anything?  Could you imagine a scenario in your community under which you would feel compelled to come out with your fellow citizens, say enough is enough and demand that something/anything be different?  Really - are you that far removed from the plight of others? Why not question the policy that suggests that once a police officer shoots, he /she must shoot to kill? Are not a number of other possible ways to do policing at least worthy of public deliberation? Yeah, I have opinions too about what we currently know about the facts, but really it's the lack of empathy that I.just.don't.get.

 

- Slojo

[albeto.]

What happened to Albeto's post? Weird. It was about cameras.

I removed it. I changed my mind.

[poppy]

I was referring to the MLK who said...

 

"I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character..."

Yes, I assumed as much. But I still think it's against the spirit of his words to use them to mean race should be ignored in a situation such as this.

[poppy]

I think perhaps if police can't do their jobs safely, then they should pull out and leave the community to their own devices. If you can't say no within a relationship, you eventually have to say no TO the relationship. I would not be a police officer if I dealt with violent criminals day in and out, risking my life, and felt I couldn't defend myself against harm or death without having to go into hiding to protect my family.

 

It is a thankless job. They should all quit and go somewhere they are wanted.

I don't understand this at all. I don't . Unless you are assuming that there is 100% certainty that killing of Michael Brown was justified? And even them, i do not understand how it is one officer's plight that is the tragedy here and not the many families of Ferguson who are facing this crisis, kids not able to go to school. I read about an 8 year old being tear gassed.

 

Of course we hold police to high standards. They have a grave responsibility to protect the citizens. They are only human and they make mistakes, sure. That doesn't make it ok. How many times have we seen politicians give into corruption? When a person has power and influence and is being courted by very wealthy interest groups, many fail to live up to the highest ideals of the office. Do we say, well they are only human? Or do we demand justice? I'd hope the don't shrug it off as understandable - in politics or law enforcement.

[SadieMarie]

I once worked for a small juvenile detention center. There was a small community nearby that was overwhelmingly white. But the police still managed to bring in the same black kid every weekend for fricking trespassing. They didn't arrest white kids for trespassing. He cuts across someone's lawn or something and he ends up in detention. The next morning he would be released and no charges. This happened almost every weekend for several weeks. My boss tried to talk to the police department, no change. She had to go to the judge and the judge had to talk to the police before they quit doing it.

[flyingiguana]

But in other ways, it isn't about race at all, as this article points out:

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/08/what-i-did-after-police-killed-my-son-110038.html#.U_STfmM0jLQ

"After police in Kenosha, Wis., shot my 21-year-old son to death outside his house ten years ago — and then immediately cleared themselves of all wrongdoing — an African-American man approached me and said: “If they can shoot a white boy like a dog, imagine what we’ve been going through.â€"

 

It's about police feeling they can get away with just about anything, because they know they won't be held accountable.

 

This is another case where the officer thought his gun was being grabbed by the victim.

 

Although at this point it may be that fewer whites than one would expect are getting killed by police for no reason (or due to misunderstandings), a lack of oversight means everyone is at higher risk. And pumping up police forces with military style weapons will only make things worse.

 

Please don't get me wrong -- I'm not posting this to take away from the racial aspect of these cases. However, if there is a significant number of people who think these things only happen to "those people" and only when they're in the middle of committing a crime, then there will never be enough political will to hold police accountable. And people who have access to guns DO need to be held accountable to an authority. The rest of us already are.

[CaffeineDiary]

"This doesn't make any sense".  

 

https://www.dailymotion.com/embed/video/x240qqo

 

Jake Tapper points out the painfully obvious fact that the police emperor is walking around without any clothes on.

[AlmiraGulch]

Police and military experts all seem to agree that many of the basic tactics used by the police in Ferguson were proven to be ineffective, were designed to escalate the situation, and were just generally out of touch with modern policing. I've heard emotional appeals on their behalf, but I have yet to see any experts analyze their actual tactics and behavior and say that's best practices. Quite the contrary. I'm so glad that people become cops, that they risk their lives to protect the people in their communities, that the rule of law is important in this country. But that doesn't mean I'll defend when cops defy the law or when they make a situation in a community worse. It's because I value good police that I find this police department's actions so indefensible. I don't really get the emotional appeals on their behalf simply based on a "support the police" mentality. It seems to me that the police community as a whole should be the first to condemn their actions.

Not sure who you're addressing here. Me? Because I haven't made any emotional appeal on behalf of anyone except the residents of the city.

 

In case I've made a different impression, let me just say that I think the police response has been abysmal. The initial response, especially, has made everything worse. Now? Well, they have to protect themselves. But it should never have gotten to this point to begin with. It is shockingly bad.

[flyingiguana]

Someone in Ferguson made this video of what the place is really like.  When it's not a war zone.  (Pictures start around :21)

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ue9nDQEGmsc#t=28

 

(If you don't want to read hate, stay out of the comment section that follows the video.)

[flyingiguana]

"This doesn't make any sense".  

 

https://www.dailymotion.com/embed/video/x240qqo

 

Jake Tapper points out the painfully obvious fact that the police emperor is walking around without any clothes on.

 

Or in this case, too many clothes.

 

[Farrar]

Not sure who you're addressing here. Me? Because I haven't made any emotional appeal on behalf of anyone except the residents of the city.

 

In case I've made a different impression, let me just say that I think the police response has been abysmal. The initial response, especially, has made everything worse. Now? Well, they have to protect themselves. But it should never have gotten to this point to begin with. It is shockingly bad.

 

Definitely not addressing you.  I think you've had some great posts that I agreed with here.  Just general thoughts.  There have been some appeals for the police here, but more in the sense of "let's wait for the investigation" which I can understand (though I also understand why many in Ferguson feel angry or suspicious about the investigation).  But there have been rallies for them in some places now and that's what I don't get at all.  Even if an impartial investigation shows this shooting was justified, I don't know how anyone can support this police department as a whole when they have engaged in such poor behavior overall.

[Word Nerd]

But in other ways, it isn't about race at all, as this article points out:

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/08/what-i-did-after-police-killed-my-son-110038.html#.U_STfmM0jLQ

"After police in Kenosha, Wis., shot my 21-year-old son to death outside his house ten years ago — and then immediately cleared themselves of all wrongdoing — an African-American man approached me and said: “If they can shoot a white boy like a dog, imagine what we’ve been going through.â€"

 

It's about police feeling they can get away with just about anything, because they know they won't be held accountable.

 

This is another case where the officer thought his gun was being grabbed by the victim.

 

Although at this point it may be that fewer whites than one would expect are getting killed by police for no reason (or due to misunderstandings), a lack of oversight means everyone is at higher risk. And pumping up police forces with military style weapons will only make things worse.

 

Please don't get me wrong -- I'm not posting this to take away from the racial aspect of these cases. However, if there is a significant number of people who think these things only happen to "those people" and only when they're in the middle of committing a crime, then there will never be enough political will to hold police accountable. And people who have access to guns DO need to be held accountable to an authority. The rest of us already are.

 

This. I think there's also a tendency to shoot first and ask questions later (e.g., an officer shot and killed a teen when he answered the door; she thought he was pointing a gun at her, but he was actually holding a game controller). These incidents happen more frequently than people likely imagine because they rarely result in officers getting charged with anything and don't get much press coverage beyond local media sources. 

[poppy]

"This doesn't make any sense".  

 

https://www.dailymotion.com/embed/video/x240qqo

 

Jake Tapper points out the painfully obvious fact that the police emperor is walking around without any clothes on.

 

Good video.  If I had dozens of officers dressed and heavily armed for combat on my street, while NO threat is present,  I'd probably react much worse than most of the citizens of Ferguson are doing- I'd be having a full on panic attack.

[kahlanne]

As I have already been in one heated topic recently that didn't turn out so well, I will refrain from giving my opinion on this topic because in the end it is only an opinion.  I do want to say that I cannot wrap my mind around the riots. Just doesn't make sense to me even if I am more sympathetic than I was a short time ago.  A few weeks back I was pulled over for speeding. The policeman immediately yelled at me to step out while standing behind my suburban. I thought it odd. I have never been stopped and asked to step out nor has anyone I have known. It was even more frustrating as I had pulled into a "rich" neighborhood to stop and was still in my pjs. He immediately let me back in my truck to get the paperwork  and write me a ticket. While writing the ticket, he was a jerk in every way possible. I asked if he knew the cost of the ticket as I had never received a speeding ticket in 20+yrs driving and he said, "No that wasn't his dept." I mentioned that I just wanted to be prepared as money was tight and he said, "If you don't have it, I suggest getting a job before this day, pointing to the ticket."  Yes, I was speeding and paid my dues but I don't think that warranted him abusing his position and being a jerk. Later on FB, I saw 3 other people complaining that they received a ticket from the same guy during the following week. One was a close friend and she said he was a jerk to her as well. She went to school with him and now attends his church. Anyway, I am saying I understand that some police abuse their positions and it is disturbing. When asked if my friend had to get out of the car, she said no. When I think about it, I am bothered by the assumption that he thought I was dangerous without any reason. I can rationalize that maybe he did have a reason and is trying to protect himself but if I am honest, it still perturbs me. I can only imagine how it must feel if this happens regularly to a person because of the color or their skin. I always thought whats the big deal just get out and do what is asked nicely and it will be all over. I agree this is the correct action to take but that doesn't mean that it doesn't bother you. It doesn't  mean the officer is wrong for making his safety a priority but it does bring out more sympathy from me than a month ago. 

[FO4UR]

Yes, I assumed as much. But I still think it's against the spirit of his words to use them to mean race should be ignored in a situation such as this.

 

You continue to mince my words, refusing to hear the meaning behind my words.

 

Of course race is a central factor in the unrest in Ferguson...if you look at my first post in this thread, you'll see that I'm one of the first posters to acknowledge this.  "Ferguson" has become a term for the dictionary now. "Ferguson" didn't die. "Ferguson" didn't kill a man. 

 

 

My point, as clearly as I can state it, until we view the MEN involved in this as MEN - not a "black kid" and not a "white cop" (not as inhuman representatives of a side)- there will be no justice and the racial fury will continue to grow. THIS is *EXACTLY* in the spirit of MLK. 

 

 

And we cannot show true empathy (for anyone, really) without removing the labels in order to see their humanity.  I get the feeling that I have received a label by you (perhaps b/c I posted about Wilson's injuries), and everything I say is filtered through a lens of "The Other Side." (I'm not on any side btw.) This simply proves my point... If we are so quick to label people with opinions on the internet, how can there be hope for impartiality in the court of law?

[poppy]

You continue to mince my words, refusing to hear the meaning behind my words.

 

Of course race is a central factor in the unrest in Ferguson...if you look at my first post in this thread, you'll see that I'm one of the first posters to acknowledge this.  "Ferguson" has become a term for the dictionary now. "Ferguson" didn't die. "Ferguson" didn't kill a man. 

 

 

My point, as clearly as I can state it, until we view the MEN involved in this as MEN - not a "black kid" and not a "white cop" (not as inhuman representatives of a side)- there will be no justice and the racial fury will continue to grow. THIS is *EXACTLY* in the spirit of MLK. 

 

 

And we cannot show true empathy (for anyone, really) without removing the labels in order to see their humanity.  I get the feeling that I have received a label by you (perhaps b/c I posted about Wilson's injuries), and everything I say is filtered through a lens of "The Other Side." (I'm not on any side btw.) This simply proves my point... If we are so quick to label people with opinions on the internet, how can there be hope for impartiality in the court of law?

 

I am not misunderstanding you. I am simply disagreeing with you.

I do not label you. I don't remember a comment about the officer's injury. It's really not personal. I have a degree in history and a minor in AA studies.  I am simply passionate on this topic.

But I'll not continue the discussion.  Let's agree to disagree.

[Slojo]

As I have already been in one heated topic recently that didn't turn out so well, I will refrain from giving my opinion on this topic because in the end it is only an opinion.  I do want to say that I cannot wrap my mind around the riots. Just doesn't make sense to me even if I am more sympathetic than I was a short time ago.  A few weeks back I was pulled over for speeding. The policeman immediately yelled at me to step out while standing behind my suburban. I thought it odd. I have never been stopped and asked to step out nor has anyone I have known. It was even more frustrating as I had pulled into a "rich" neighborhood to stop and was still in my pjs. He immediately let me back in my truck to get the paperwork  and write me a ticket. While writing the ticket, he was a jerk in every way possible. I asked if he knew the cost of the ticket as I had never received a speeding ticket in 20+yrs driving and he said, "No that wasn't his dept." I mentioned that I just wanted to be prepared as money was tight and he said, "If you don't have it, I suggest getting a job before this day, pointing to the ticket."  Yes, I was speeding and paid my dues but I don't think that warranted him abusing his position and being a jerk. Later on FB, I saw 3 other people complaining that they received a ticket from the same guy during the following week. One was a close friend and she said he was a jerk to her as well. She went to school with him and now attends his church. Anyway, I am saying I understand that some police abuse their positions and it is disturbing. When asked if my friend had to get out of the car, she said no. When I think about it, I am bothered by the assumption that he thought I was dangerous without any reason. I can rationalize that maybe he did have a reason and is trying to protect himself but if I am honest, it still perturbs me. I can only imagine how it must feel if this happens regularly to a person because of the color or their skin. I always thought whats the big deal just get out and do what is asked nicely and it will be all over. I agree this is the correct action to take but that doesn't mean that it doesn't bother you. It doesn't  mean the officer is wrong for making his safety a priority but it does bring out more sympathy from me than a month ago. 

Thanks for telling your story. I am really sorry for what happened to you. I grew up across the street from police officers, so my first memories of cops were those of friendly neighbors. However, I think one of the issues with the "cops need to make safety a priority" is that the "priority" gets meted out very differently in patterned ways that are clearly biased against African Americans and Latinos. The fact that before your encounter with this police officer that you knew no one that was ever pulled over in this manner is telling. I can list three dozen (I'm African American) and I'm a reserved, mini-van driving soccer mom that lives in a quiet, college town -- and I know about these things. I'm not even remotely near the center of where these kinds of stops and harsher interactions are routine, but - like most African Americans - it's pretty darn hard to be too removed from understanding that there really are "two Americas" sometimes - one in which it is reasonable to expect that the laws and those sworn to uphold it really do work for you, and one in which "well, it depends... and "you just can never be sure" and where people are really afraid that if they make an understandable human error that a cop that has an unconscious bias against black people might perceive threat where there really wasn't one.  I'm seriously considering having my children when they are older get brightly colored cell phone covers so that a slim black case can't be mistaken for a black gun, to put their arms up immeidately if they are ever pulled over so the officer can see their hands, to NOT  pull their hoodies up even if they are cold or it is raining - better wet than dead - etc... I even was worried when my 8 year old (8!) wanted one of those superhero hoodies that have the masks built in because maybe, just maybe someone might think he was somehow covering his face for nefarious reasons rather than being a kid that still likes to play dress up. I don't let my kids "eat just one grape" while in the store, though my husband (who is white) grew up doing that and originally saw it as no big deal, and I don't let them hold the occasional candy bar I buy them in the store until we are out of the store and in our car so there is no confusion that they may have stolen it. My cousins, my brother, my disabled father who really, really cannot be a physical threat to anyone - the most law-abiding persons I know - have all been pulled over under dubious circumstances in the harsh manner similar to what you described, some of them multiple times. There is documented research that police officers (and civilians) view African American boys as older and more physically threatening than white boys of similar age and body build. This

sums up the dilemma  that many African Americans feel in trying to navigate this dual reality for ourselves and our children.

 

 

So I really do thank you for your story. It is the kind of thing that allows just a little more light and a little more understanding all around to come through.

[SKL]

I've been stopped by many cops.  I seem to be a cop magnet.  Most of the time they are courteous, but there have been at least a couple times when they were complete a-holes, including once when I had my 4yo daughters in the car watching it all.  I honestly do not remember what any of the cops' skin color was.  I live in a diverse area where many of the cops are people of color.  It isn't something I usually notice any more.

 

I do understand that cops' jobs can be very stressful.  However, pulling over a lady who is driving her preschoolers to the zoo, for going a little fast after the speed limit decreased, can't be that stressful.  Some people have personal problems and cops are no exception.  However, I do feel that on average, cops are strong and high-minded people who sacrifice for the greater good.  The ones I know personally (of all colors) make me feel better about my community.

 

I wish this didn't need to be said at all, but I'm starting to feel like people are attacking cops in general here.  Again, being a cop is a pretty thankless job already.  Not to mention dangerous.  Nobody said they are all saints, but let's not act like they are generally jerks either.

[Word Nerd]

 

 

I wish this didn't need to be said at all, but I'm starting to feel like people are attacking cops in general here.  Again, being a cop is a pretty thankless job already.  Not to mention dangerous.  Nobody said they are all saints, but let's not act like they are generally jerks either.

 

I disagree. I see people calling for cops to be held accountable when they abuse their authority. 

 

[CaffeineDiary]

I wish this didn't need to be said at all, but I'm starting to feel like people are attacking cops in general here.  Again, being a cop is a pretty thankless job already.  Not to mention dangerous.  Nobody said they are all saints, but let's not act like they are generally jerks either.

 

 

 

Yeah, I don't think anyone here is attacking "cops in general"; my attacks are quite specifically on what the actual cops in this actual town are actually doing:  any cop who thinks it's ok to ( a ) point a gun at an unarmed civilian and ( b ) hide his badge/name is someone who shouldn't be a cop.

 

Here's a video from last night of an officer pointing his gun in a journalist's face and saying, and I quote, "I'm going to [expletive] kill you." (NSFW: language)

 

http://youtu.be/8zbR824FKpU 

 

There is nothing "in general" about this.  This guy - and apparently lots like him in Ferguson - is unfit to serve, and should be kicked off the force and brought up on assault charges.  Period.

[poppy]

Well, to be fair, there has been some discussion of the experience of being pulled over and how race can impact that - I completely empathize Slojo when she talks about how her experiences and observations make her afraid for her kids. 

 

It's not a slam on cops so much as an observation about our criminal justice system.  But I can see how it could be perceived that way by someone who does not think race factors at all into police/civilian relationships.

[weaver_67579]

 some used thug as a description for people.

 

one Wiki definition of Thug (Which I could not copy and paste for some reason...)

 

Thug may refer to people: Thug-a common criminal who treats others violently and roughly-often for hire.

 

 

dictionary. com

 

a cruel or vicious ruffian, robber or murderer

 

 

Merriam-Webster

 

a brutal ruffian or assassin (the assassin was referring to the old definition in long ago india-most dictionaries I looked at also gave that definition as a secondary one)

 

There is no race included in any definition I have seen.

[SKL]

Well, to be fair, there has been some discussion of the experience of being pulled over and how race can impact that - I completely empathize Slojo when she talks about how her experiences and observations make her afraid for her kids. 

 

It's not a slam on cops so much as an observation about our criminal justice system.  But I can see how it could be perceived that way by someone who does not think race factors at all into police/civilian relationships.

 

Race does factor in, especially in some places.  I'm sure the St. Louis area is one of those places, as a general statement.

 

However, for many here the reaction to "let's let the investigators determine the facts" is answered as if you would have to be a blithering idiot to believe there was ever a white cop who justifiably killed a black man.

 

I haven't seen anyone declare the cop must have been in the right, or that if he was in the wrong he should not have to pay.  However, it seems like "innocent until proven guilty" is being completely discarded with respect to the cop here (as far as some people are concerned).

 

As far as I am aware, cops are accountable when they shoot people.  They are put on leave and they have to file a lot of paperwork and submit to an investigation.  The difference between cops and everyone else is that shooting people is sometimes a cop's duty.  A most unpleasant duty, I'm sure.

 

We can wait for the fact finders to do their jobs without being ignorant of racism.

[poppy]

I haven't seen anyone declare the cop must have been in the right, or that if he was in the wrong he should not have to pay.  However, it seems like "innocent until proven guilty" is being completely discarded with respect to the cop here (as far as some people are concerned).

 

Given the criminal justice system's long and very well documented history in this area, "let's see what the investigation reveals" does in effect means "the cop was justified".  I wish with all my heart that wasn't true, but, it is.

 

The deck is stacked very heavily in favor on that outcome. For example, laws that say the only criteria for innocence is the officer stating he felt like he was in danger.   In the link above there is a story of a police officer who was cleared in shooting and killing a man who we thought was carrying a real gun - it was a fake gun - they were both at a Halloween costume party at the time.  It's absurd.

[SKL]

Given the criminal justice system's long and very well documented history in this area, "let's see what the investigation reveals" does in effect means "the cop was justified".  I wish with all my heart that wasn't true, but, it is.

 

The deck is stacked very heavily in favor on that outcome. For example, laws that say the only criteria for innocence is the officer stating he felt like he was in danger.   In the link above there is a story of a police officer who was cleared in shooting and killing a man who we thought was carrying a real gun - it was a fake gun - they were both at a Halloween costume party at the time.  It's absurd.

 

OK so we are going to have to agree to disagree.  And to me, your comment basically equals "just imprison or kill all white cops who use deadly force against black people, period.  No investigation necessary."

[FO4UR]

  But I can see how it could be perceived that way by someone who does not think race factors at all into police/civilian relationships.

 

 

Again...race is obviously factoring in...this is the problem, not the cure.  

 

 

 

 

Would the rioting/looting stop if we sent only black police to Ferguson?  Are we REALLY asking to be segregated again????  b/c it seems you are saying that there is no way to be fair (law without race factoring in) if white police never stopped black citizens.

 

What *IS* the answer here, in your opinion???  If we cannot be colorblind, and treat each citizen with impartiality under the law, what CAN we do???

[Word Nerd]

Here's a link to a video from Tuesday night in which a police officer in Ferguson pointed his gun at and threatened to kill a group of people filming the protests. [Language warning]

[Slojo]

OK so we are going to have to agree to disagree.  And to me, your comment basically equals "just imprison or kill all white cops who use deadly force against black people, period.  No investigation necessary."

 

Oh, I really hope you don't take that away from comments. No one I know would say that the solution is to "just imprison..."  The kinds of things that people are discussing are: embedded cameras on uniforms to remove the "he said/she said" nature of these kinds of encounters; successful community policing strategies that have turned around the dynamic AND have made communities safer; additional training for police officers; collaborative work with community organizations to organize neighborhoods with community safety in mind; diversifying police forces (only because the research suggests that diversified forces are often more successful in implementing the above strategies).  

 

These strategies have evidence of dropping the incidences in which a cop has to make a judgment that results in deadly force - making their jobs safer and keeping the community safe. It does not need to be a zero sum game. 

 

No need to jump to "no investigation necessary." When an unarmed person is dead, it should be protocol to figure out "what went wrong" so that it never happens again. That's just part of professionalizing a police force.  That's what everyone can agree on. No police force wants to have a record of shooting unarmed people, just doesn't look good just like no hospital wants to have record of women dying in childbirth (even though that occasionally happens, too) - and when it does happen, a full review with renewed investment in the highest standard protocols, new strategies are employed and it becomes a case study for all to review until the incidences get to zero. Same applies to a police force.

 

- Alicia

[SKL]

Oh, I really hope you don't take that away from comments. No one I know would say that the solution is to "just imprison..."  The kinds of things that people are discussing are: embedded cameras on uniforms to remove the "he said/she said" nature of these kinds of encounters; successful community policing strategies that have turned around the dynamic AND have made communities safer; additional training for police officers; collaborative work with community organizations to organize neighborhoods with community safety in mind; diversifying police forces (only because the research suggests that diversified forces are often more successful in implementing the above strategies).  

 

These strategies have evidence of dropping the incidences in which a cop has to make a judgment that results in deadly force - making their jobs safer and keeping the community safe. It does not need to be a zero sum game. 

 

No need to jump to "no investigation necessary." When an unarmed person is dead, it should be protocol to figure out "what went wrong" so that it never happens again. That's just part of professionalizing a police force.  That's what everyone can agree on. No police force wants to have a record of shooting unarmed people, just doesn't look good just like no hospital wants to have record of women dying in childbirth (even though that occasionally happens, too) - and when it does happen, a full review with renewed investment in the highest standard protocols, new strategies are employed and it becomes a case study for all to review until the incidences get to zero. Same applies to a police force.

 

- Alicia

 

I don't know, I feel like even a police department that does all that is going to be subject to "racist cop murdered a black boy" because of the attitudes I see displayed above.

 

One news story did say Ferguson just bought those cameras but hadn't installed them yet; and another said they have been trying to diversify the police force but haven't had much success attracting black police officers.  I do realize that's just one side talking, but I won't assume everything they say and do is wrong.

 

I'm all for continuous improvement.  I just don't see race relations following along, partly because of the constant baiting without any actual interest in fact finding.