Vintage LA comparison

[vaquitita]

I have been researching vintage LA options. I really like the looks of some of these, but I'm having trouble comparing different ones. Serl, maxwell, McGuffey, wheeler..

Edited December 13, 2015 by vaquitita

[vaquitita]

In the preface to maxwells primary book it says it's the first of a two book series, the second being advanced lessons.

Edited December 13, 2015 by vaquitita

[pitterpatter]

Well, shoot. I had these all figured out earlier this year, but have forgotten now. Usually, there's a book listing near the title page that lists the order of the author's books. However, figuring out ages/grades for each can be tricky.

 

Here's a link to one of my posts from earlier this year.

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/514956-rigorous-vintage-grammar-and-comp-for-second-grade/?hl=%2Bvintage+%2Bgrammar

 

Here's an updated link to The Stingy Homeschooler's vintage LA list, which I've found quite helpful.

 

http://stingyhomeschooler.weebly.com/vintage-la.html

 

After a lot of searching and contemplation, I decided to use R&S for grammar. I just couldn't find everything I needed in one vintage grammar book. They don't seem to provide complete coverage for today's student.

 

However, we will be using The Elson Readers 1 and 2 with teacher guides (from Lost Classics), Good English: Oral and Written, Book One by William H. Elson (for composition, copy work, picture study, memorization, etc.) and The Modern Speller (pretty much the same as Dictation Day by Day) for dictation. We used The Elson Readers: Primer and started The Modern Speller over the summer. DD adores them both. Me too! We've also completed the first unit of R&S English 2, which DD likes.

[nansk]

Too many options make choosing difficult. :)

I think you should just use what you have for now - i.e. Serl's PLL and Mcguffey's Reader. Then, based on how this year goes, you can choose what to buy/print for next year.

[Faithful_Steward]

There was a poster named Dulcimeramy who posted here years ago. She combined PLL/ILL, R&S, McGuffey's readers/speller and Elson through logic stage. You might try searching her posts.

[Hunter]

Vintage authors had very strong opinions about teaching English, just like modern authors do, so it's important to understand the individual authors' methods. And just like modern texts, the authors try to squish too much work into too little time to complete it.

 

McGuffey isn't a natural method at all, but will appeal to OCD type instructors. More natural methods will appeal to some but drive others batty with their lack of organization and explicit instruction.

 

For ME, when looking at English texts from any period or for any price, I prefer some explicit instruction, but not overly formulaic writing. And those two things are somewhat contradictory, so :lol: there really isn't any such thing.

 

I'm having to gradually develop my own scope and sequence, and then search out the individual lessons that will accomplish my goals.

 

If nothing else, logic level students need to be able to write a basic essay and write a friendly letter, using at least correct punctuation at the end of sentences, capitalization of first words and proper nouns, and indentation of paragraphs that stick to one point.

 

So, as I'm putting together an entire 40 week scope and sequence with LoL at the center, I'm trying to figure out how I want to focus on MY English priorities, and then find the resources that will meet MY needs.

 

It helps ME to have a set number of weeks to plug things into. A week doesn't have to be a week, and weeks can be split and combined, but it's a place to START organizing information.

[Hunter]

I just want to add A Child's Composition Book to the lists of excellent vintage English texts.

http://books.google.com/books?id=0vUAAAAAYAAJ&dq=a+child's+composition+book&source=gbs_navlinks_s

[vaquitita]

Nm

Edited December 13, 2015 by vaquitita

[vaquitita]

McGuffey isn't a natural method at all, but will appeal to OCD type instructors. More natural methods will appeal to some but drive others batty with their lack of organization and explicit instruction.

What?!?!?

[Hunter]

What?!?!?

I don't mean that in a bad way! :lol: So called "natural" methods are usually quite sloppy looking.

[Curlymom]

I'm using Wheeler's Spellers for my kids. My new 7 year old is going through the Elementary Speller and my 4th grader is working through Graded Studies of Great Authors. I lean towards Charlotte Mason, so Graded Studies works beautifully for that as it incorporates quotes from great authors to teach spelling through copy work, and my 4th grader loves copy work. I added in spelling lists from K12reader for her as well, but not for my younger child.

 

I read through a lot of other vintage books trying to decide on writing, and my 4th grader is working through Serl's ILL (alternating with classical composition). It just seemed like the most modern of all of the ones I reviewed. The vintage books are lovely but sometimes they can veer toward the anachronistic. For grammar we are doing Elements of English Grammar by Lawton Evans. I looked at Sheldon's and Harvey's and McGuffey and several others but liked these the best because they capture the focus of the vintage books but have a modern feel about them.

 

I think the bet way to move forward may be to decide how you want to teach (do you want all in one LA or separated out into different subjects) and then start reviewing some of the books. Since they are public domain it's easy to take a look at them, but you can definitely get overwhelmed!

[nansk]

There was a poster named Dulcimeramy who posted here years ago. She combined PLL/ILL, R&S, McGuffey's readers/speller and Elson through logic stage. You might try searching her posts.

I saved some of her posts. Will quote here.

 

 

From this post:

PLL is for second grade up. I think you can do that orally, but you will miss the re-write and other work which has to be written if you do so. I use PLL to the fullest with my second grader. He does narration and rewrite, as well as writing stories based on picture study and writing descriptive pieces (I jot down his writing, edit together, and then either he copies it or I dictate it to him). Some of the grammar and language mechanic work need to be done in writing as well, e.g.comma usage, capital letter, abbreviation, contraction, and homonym.

 

I didn't do any grammar whatsoever for my son's first grade; just spelling tied to dictation, copywork (tied in with his history and natural stories - Burgess, I mean), advanced phonics, narration (history, natural story, literature as recommended by Ambleside Online) and reading old readers.

 

We still do the same for second grade, but copywork is getting longer and I introduce him to some grammar/usage via PLL. I also get him to get used to the process of writing (via PLL) and summarizing his history lesson (and write them down).

 

As for reading, this year I ask him to narrate his reader. Elson's phonics is easy enough to read, and the story is at the right level for my son to narrate. I had to stop him every few paragraphs and asked him questions to ensure he understood the story. The story called the bell of Atri appears in both Elson and Beacon readers, but the Elson's version is easier.

 

 

From this post:

Here is how I do it; it may not be the WTM way but my children are all very proficient readers and spellers! Works for me!

 

We learn to read with the primers and speller. One reading lesson at a time until that lesson is mastered, one spelling lesson per week. We don't move on until the child can both read and spell all the words. Once the child has learned the first few pages of the speller, he's reading! With a phonetic syllabary, reading happens quickly.

 

My children have all been able to read the books much sooner than the schedule I mentioned above. My eight year old could read out of the fourth reader if I wanted. But I don't. I want him in the first half of the second reader. My 10 year old is in the first half of the third reader. My newly-7th grader is beginning the fourth reader.

 

They each learn one lesson per week.

 

Day 1: Read the lesson. Copy according to ability (first reader students begin with a sentence and work up to a short paragraph; the writing increases each level until the fourth reader student is copying half the lesson).

 

On Day 1 we also begin the week's spelling lesson. If a student studies half a spelling page per week beginning in kindergarten, he'll complete the speller by 10th grade or so. I add the reader lesson's spelling words to the list. I write out the words and the child copies them one time each on days 1-3. Small children use a chalkboard or magnadoodle. We look up any unfamiliar words in the dictionary, but I don't make them copy these definitions.

 

Day 2: Answer the questions at the end of the lesson. The answers must be written in complete sentences, with good penmanship.

 

Day 3: Spell and define. They get the most out of defining if you let them use Webster's 1828 Dictionary. By the third reader they need to be copying the entire definition correctly. Test on this lesson's spelling words.

 

Day 4: Read the lesson aloud. I'm fussy about diction, expression, speed, and posture. We also do dictation on Day 4; I use the work that they copied on Day 1. Occasionally I have my older students do some research and write a short paper about their lesson. In that case they write the rough draft on Day 4 and the final copy on Day 5.

 

Day 5: Weekly spelling bee, all students together.

 

I think we've had good results with this system. My children use Primary Language Lessons and Intermediate Language Lessons, too. Each week they also write one history outline, one history narration, one science summary,and one science lab report.

 

My fourth and sixth grader are practicing their public speaking with the third reader twice a week. They take turns, we discuss and look up the unusual words and then we answer the questions aloud. They love it!

I learned something since I posted that. Elson Readers have excellent built-in glossary work starting in Book 5. Nowadays I prefer Elson to McGuffey for upper elementary.

[vaquitita]

Nm

Edited December 13, 2015 by vaquitita

[vaquitita]

Nm

Edited December 13, 2015 by vaquitita

[vaquitita]

Ha. I just figured out the maxwells series. There are two series. A series that goes: primary lessons in language and composition for primary grades, introductory lessons in English grammar for lower grammar classes, and advanced lessons in Grammar for upper grammar classes. And a second series: First book in English for elementary grades, introductory lessons in English grammar for grammar grades, and advanced lessons in English grammar for higher grammar classes or high school. The introductory book for each series seems to be the same. So maybe there was just a different first book depending on how old your child is when you start! Or perhaps a second edition?

[Faithful_Steward]

I saved some of her posts. Will quote here.

I always valued Dulcimeramy's advice. Too bad she does't post anymore.

[vaquitita]

Nm

Edited December 13, 2015 by vaquitita

[Curlymom]

I just did a comparison of McGuffey First Reader and Wheeler's Speller for my son's copywork this coming year, and for copywork Weeler's Speller wins hands down. I think my son will find the quotes much more interesting than the sentences in the readers.

 

I went and reread AO's LA scope and sequence (here http://www.amblesideonline.org/LangArtsScopeSeq.shtml ). I like their scope and sequence, and I think it works well from a less is more perspective. If I review my options from this (AO LA) place, here's what I'm thinking...

 

My son will be in 3rd grade next year, but he will also be 9yo, so he is sort of straddling the 1-3 set and the 4-6 set. I will mark the vintage option **** and the other option ###.

 

Reading- he will begin reading most of his school books.

Reading Aloud/Elocution-

**** I could use the McGuffey readers for this.

### Also vintage, but I could use the Elson readers for this. If I prefer SU over Ray's, Wheeler's Speller over McGuffey's Speller, Evans over Harvey's Grammar... will I also prefer Elson readers over McGuffey's? I own McGuffey's, but since I only paid $14 for the set I could just use it for teaching the younger ones to read (I haven't compared the Primer's, maybe Elson's would also be good for this?) or as a supplement.

 

Beginning Grammar-

**** Serl's ILL is recommended on the AO forums. I have PLL.

### I ordered Climbing to Good English in my last charter school order, haven't seen it yet. Hard to compare since I haven't seen it in person.

Grammar-

**** After finishing PLL/ILL, I could use Evans grammar a pp mentioned.

### continue CtGE

3RD option Learning Language Through Literature. Vintage style lessons, modern program. All laid out, uses real literature

 

Composition- oral narration, no written narrations yet.

**** ignore all those lovely vintage composition books for now. Stick with oral narrating.

### Climbing to Good English

 

Copywork/Dictation- I really have neglected this. Last year I started my son with months, days of week, family names. Then ended up just having him do a handwriting workbook because I didn't have anything prepared. He hates the handwriting workbook because it's so boring. At the very end of the year I switched it up, had him do a couple copywork sentences instead. He doesn't love it, but it's better than the workbook.

**** Wheeler's Speller.

### Simply Spelling. I actually already have the 3-12 pdf.

I also need to decide how much of the copywork/dictation I want to do out of Serl's PLL. Do I want to skip it because I have it covered elsewhere? Just do the work orally? Or slowly begin doing some of it written to stretch my sons writing stamina?

Since you are doing AO, could you just use one of the readers from Y1 or y2? We dabbled in AO, but I do love the book lists and pull from those when I need some inspiration.

 

For copy work, you can always pull from the reading if that seems simpler. My 9 year old is doing copy work from Wheeler's but for my younger child I am having him work on simple poems from Mother Goose or a sentence or two from a book he enjoys. But he won't do copy work unless it is something he likes so I have to create my own copy work for him.

 

I also have him narrate to me, I copy it down, and them have him copy his own words. We don't do this all at once, but just for one reading a week. Although he is younger than yours. I still have my older child do a combination of oral and written narrations, but still primarily oral. We are easing into written narrations and it is going slowly.

[vaquitita]

Nm

Edited December 13, 2015 by vaquitita

[vaquitita]

I guess all my vintage wanderings were pointless. No! I have a few grammar options for later on. Ok, I feel better now. :D

[vaquitita]

Nm

Edited December 13, 2015 by vaquitita

[nansk]

I always valued Dulcimeramy's advice. Too bad she does't post anymore.

She still does, under a different name. :)

[rose]

Have you considered "The Mother Tongue" books by Sarah Louise Arnold? I really appreciate them and just printed out the second volume for our grammar curriculum. Volume 1 is an introduction to language arts and covers basic punctuation, letter writing, picture studies, copywork, poetry. The final section of volume 1 is a light introduction to grammar. Volume 2 is a grammar book and I believe volume 3 covers composition (I might be wrong about this though). I'm going to have to take a close look at some of the other volumes mentioned. I really appreciate vintage curriculum. There's so much less twaddle mixed in.