Curious why you turned away from Christianity...

[AMJ]

Answering the original post - have not read the thread.  And I am not meaning to offend anyone, just answering the question as it was asked.

 

I came to see the views of divinity and truth as described in these particular scriptures and traditions as being very small, extremely limited, and frankly silly.  I let myself off the hook to embrace something that to me is much bigger.  I didn't turn away from anything, or lose any faith.  There was never any sense of loss at all.  Just moving on.   Like if a person had only shopped at one small store, in one small town, their entire life, and then they find out that there are different kinds of stores, in other towns, with all sorts of different things, and bigger selections, etc.   The person realizes that people who shop elsewhere are happy and doing just fine, and decides to check it out, and then decides she enjoys the bigger marketplace.  So I let go of the guilt and decided to be freestyle.  Feminism gave me the initial shove, but there was much more to it than that.  I realized I had been living in guilt and fear, and to me, those are indicators of a toxic relationship.  So I moved on.  I do not need to believe I have definite answers about big questions.   I find there is a lot to explore once I have let go of this.  I like it out here !   :D

 

Well put!  I like the term "freestyle".  I don't define myself as non-Christian, since Roman Catholicism (U.S. version) is a big part of my upbringing and colors the person I have become and am becoming.  But I am more than just that, and am open to more.

 

 

I think, OP, that you will find that quite a lot of people who have "left" Christianity are this way.  They have grown beyond what they have known of Christianity.  Not everyone was traumatized by Christians.  For some they simply found Christianity to be insufficient.

 

[Dana]

I would guess (and am probably on track) that a lot of you had already made up your minds to not believe in God before you even supposedly read the Bible. If you read with a closed mind, you aren't going to believe anything you read.

 

Another misconception that I see a lot of is not knowing what a true Christian is. I have mentioned this before and will mention it again. A true Christian has a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. It has nothing to do with going to church or researching tons of religions. Christianity and religion are NOT the same thing. I feel sad that so many people have made it this far in their lives and have no idea what true Christianity is.

I feel sad that you're as ignorant as you are and have such a lack of reading comprehension.

 

It is precisely comments like yours that aid me in stating clearly that if you are an illustration of what a Christian is...I want NOTHING to do with it.

 

Another PK here.

My folks are both ministers. They do "walk the walk" and I have respect for their faith even if I think it is misguided.

 

I see crap like Luanne is spewing as a reason that Christianity is harmful.

[AMJ]

I would like to thank Nemom again for starting this thread.  It is in discussions like these that I find my own understanding of things takes more conscious leaps forward.  I don't spend every waking moment of the day agonizing (or even thinking) about my views on religion and deities, and how they have changed over the years.  I go about my life, learn from my experiences and what others tell me of their own experiences, and unconsciously the stuff all percolates away in the background.  Then comes an opportunity (nearly nonexistent for me before I found these forums) to gently discuss matters with others willing to discuss without judgement, and I find the words to articulate the thoughts, attitudes, and learnings that have grown in the unconscious background of my brain.

 

Discussions like these lead to growth in learning and wisdom.

 

Thank you, Nemom!

[Haiku]

They don't know the true meaning of Christianity, just like you.

Were you trying to be horrendously rude, or was it an accident?

[Guest]

I would guess (and am probably on track) that a lot of you had already made up your minds to not believe in God before you even supposedly read the Bible. If you read with a closed mind, you aren't going to believe anything you read.

 

Another misconception that I see a lot of is not knowing what a true Christian is. I have mentioned this before and will mention it again. A true Christian has a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. It has nothing to do with going to church or researching tons of religions. Christianity and religion are NOT the same thing. I feel sad that so many people have made it this far in their lives and have no idea what true Christianity is.

Luanne, you're going to get a zillion replies, but let me throw in mine. You have no insight into how people leave Christianity. In early 2003, I was as Christian as they come. Inside, outside, in word, deed and thought. I believed I had a personal relationship with Christ. I believed that nothing could possibly be better than following "God's Will" for my life. I prayed every day. I even took up an exercise mentioned in Max Lucado's book, "Just Like Jesus." The exercise was to continually bring my thought to God every waking moment. I did this. I would even say the results were profoundly divine.

 

I read the Bible every day. I read dozens of books by Christian authors. I could not wait to go to church to learn more about God. I was in a small group and was fervently committed to God. My son's middle name is "Christian," because I wanted his name to symbolize our faith. That name means Christ-bearer, and that is what I wanted at the time.

 

When issues bothered me, I read apologists. I read Lee Stroeble, C.S. lewis, Ravi Zacharius. I read "Letters From a Skeptic." After my baby died, I read, "When God Doesn't Make Sense," " Holding Onto Hope," plus a few other books, endless blogs and websites, dozens of responses on message boards (at GCM, at Worthy, at WTM). I posed questions on some forums where a moderator would personaLy PM a response. I took a class at church to try and help me sort out some issues.

 

The last thing that could ever be said is that I didn't try. Even now, I remain in a Christian context. There are things I like about being part of "the religion" - the external elements that you are speaking against. But I no longer have a personal relationship with God/Jesus. It is not possible to have that when I disbelieve so much. I do still believe there is a Creator/Superior entity, but I do not believe in the father-figure God who listens to me and sometimes arranges my world according to my requests.

 

P.S. My story is also in NO WAY unique. MANY people who deconverted from Christianity have similar stories.

[BrookValley.]

OP, forgive me if this out of place here (or if it has been mentioned in this thread already), but there's a new social group for atheists/agnostics and those questioning their faith/leaning atheist here. I mention it only because I see a lot of posters here who might enjoy some of the discussion over there, too (there's also a "share your journey" thread going on in the social group now).

 

Anyhow, I think this thread has some very interesting discussion, and I hope it continues! I'll agree with AMJ--thanks, Nemom, for starting it. :)

[Hoot]

Very, very similar path here. I was on the missions committee at our church. I was a small group shepard for a women's group. I spent hours everyday poring over scripture. I was in bible studies. For a long time I believed the stuff I was being shoveled. And then I started questioning and learning things. I never went looking into other religions while I considered myself a fervent Christian. Only in the last year have I realized that I don't believe and only in the last few months even been brave enough to admit it. Only over this last year have I entertained the idea of even reading and learning about other religions and belief systems.

 

But I guess I didn't really try hard enough after all according to some.

 

Luanne, you're going to get a zillion replies, but let me throw in mine. You have no insight into how people leave Christianity. In early 2003, I was as Christian as they come. Inside, outside, in word, deed and thought. I believed I had a personal relationship with Christ. I believed that nothing could possibly be better than following "God's Will" for my life. I prayed every day. I even took up an exercise mentioned in Max Lucado's book, "Just Like Jesus." The exercise was to continually bring my thought to God every waking moment. I did this. I would even say the results were profoundly divine.

 

I read the Bible every day. I read dozens of books by Christian authors. I could not wait to go to church to learn more about God. I was in a small group and was fervently committed to God. My son's middle name is "Christian," because I wanted his name to symbolize our faith. That name means Christ-bearer, and that is what I wanted at the time.

 

When issues bothered me, I read apologists. I read Lee Stroeble, C.S. lewis, Ravi Zacharius. I read "Letters From a Skeptic." After my baby died, I read, "When God Doesn't Make Sense," " Holding Onto Hope," plus a few other books, endless blogs and websites, dozens of responses on message boards (at GCM, at Worthy, at WTM). I posed questions on some forums where a moderator would personaLy PM a response. I took a class at church to try and help me sort out some issues.

 

The last thing that could ever be said is that I didn't try. Even now, I remain in a Christian context. There are things I like about being part of "the religion" - the external elements that you are speaking against. But I no longer have a personal relationship with God/Jesus. It is not possible to have that when I disbelieve so much. I do still believe there is a Creator/Superior entity, but I do not believe in the father-figure God who listens to me and sometimes arranges my world according to my requests.

 

P.S. My story is also in NO WAY unique. MANY people who deconverted from Christianity have similar stories.

[*Lulu*]

Luanne, from one Christian to another -- you're speaking from your own tradition whether you can see that or not.  What you believe about Christianity isn't what all ("real") Christians believe about Christianity.  I'm going to guess that you would think me religious but not a real Christian because I don't believe in a "personal relationship with Christ." This "personal relationship with Jesus Christ" (believe it or not) is a fairly new understanding/belief in the Christian faith as a whole, and the Bible itself never, ever mentions it.  The early church, the church through the centuries, the church in its entirety until much later in Christian time, didn't espouse what you're espousing, and yet it was still God's vibrant, growing, Christian church. Receiving Christ?  We "receive Christ" through receiving the Eucharist, which is His Body and Blood.  I know that wouldn't be your understanding, but that's what the early church and the church throughout time has taught.  You're welcome to a different belief, but please don't speak for Christianity as a whole. 

 

Same with the Bible.  I agree with others that it can be very confusing and even contradictory if read through one's own eyes and if read solely by itself.  I studied the Bible and the Bible alone on several topics and came to some very sincere conclusions -- but others did the same thing and came to completely opposite conclusions.  The Bible was never meant to be the foundation of the faith at all.  The Bible itself even says this. 

 

Real Christians don't concern themselves with whether or not others are saved.  Only themselves.  "Work out your salvation."  It takes a lifetime and I personally have found that I don't have time to work out the salvation of others because I have enough to do with my own heart before God.

 

First, thank you for the above, milovany. There are many aspects of the Orthodox Church that I do not fully understand, but the ideas shared in your last paragraph and the acceptance of mystery have greatly shaped my faith in the past several years.

 

I don't know if I count.....but considering I have discovered I am not a "real" Christian by the standards of many, perhaps I do.

 

I was raised in a conservative evangelical church. I have/had more than one minister in the family as a child.

 

My belief in God remains, but my theology has dramaticaly shifted from the way I was raised.

 

For me it was a combination of being abused within the church and the way other Christians treated me after they learned of the abuse that caused me to begin to walk away from the "Christianity" that has been constructed by the modern evangelical movement.

 

I am still a member of the UMC and attend a very progressive UM church where my DH is on staff.

 

There are a lot of issues that have come up as I deal with the fallout from the abuse, and I am a person in transition. I cannot say where I will end up theologically. I am okay with that.

[BrookValley.]

Hooked up to an IV for the day. I am reading and so appreciate the honest answers. Will be back when i can type with both hands. 😉

 

Yikes. Feel better soon. :grouphug:

[Joanne]

Respectfully, Luanne, your posts are off topic.

I wouldn't call it off topic so much as disrespectful? Counterproductive? Unkind? Patronizing?

[Χά�ων]

OK, I went ahead and started a shoot off thread so this one can stay on topic. :) I hope no one minds.

 

Here is the "Ask a Real Christian" thread

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/523522-so-ask-a-real-christian/

[BrookValley.]

*sigh*  This is a very inconvenient time to have run out of likes.

[SadieMarie]

See, I don't get atheism either really.  It just seems like the flip side lol.  I can't know there is no creator of any kind or that there is so I don't worry about it.  I can see how being religious could be a comfort or oppressive, depending on the religion and how it is practiced.  

 

 

[umsami]

I grew up Presbyterian.  Occasional go to church not on holidays Presbyterian.  Still, my parents taught Sunday School and my Dad was a Deacon. They are completely Biblically illiterate.  Church is social.  Church is what "good people" do.  Do they believe the actual tenants of the Presbyterian church? Doubtful.

 

In college and after, I explored many different faiths including Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, Bah'ai, Catholicism, Christian Science, LDS, Paganism, and more.  I took RCIA classes, but never went through with the First Communion at the end.  

 

I ended up having a very definite response to prayer which led me to believe in God.  I started to attend an Assembly of God church which I liked a lot, and had some friends at…although to me, speaking in tongues should be something useful like Mandarin or Spanish, rather than something that is not a known language (personal opinion.)  Contemporary worship was an eye-opener to me…especially as I can't sing.  My voice is drowned out by all the drums and stuff! What a great idea! :)

 

Because of this, I decided to take some classes at a Reformed seminary in their Grad program while I debated whether or not I wanted to go for a full MDIv degree.  I had doubts on the Trinity…and the whole concept of the Trinity.  I seriously have doubts about a true virgin birth.  (Even though Islam prescribes that as well.)

 

I attended a Disciples of Christ congregation when I was in grad school and liked it as well.  I explored Hinduism and found a lot I liked, and a lot which seemed too strange to me (although to be fair, there are cultural imports into Islam which are very strange to me too.)

 

I ended up exploring more about Islam, and basically it came down to between Judaism and Islam.  I liked both.  They are very similar (surprising, I know.)  I decided to stay with Islam because Jesus was still part of the picture.  A prophet, rather than the son of God…but still, very important.

 

Do I believe everything in Islam 100%? Nope…as previously said, I take issue with the concept of the virgin birth of Jesus (peace be upon him).  I do not see Muhammad (peace be upon him) as infallible…because he wasn't portrayed that way in the Qur'an…but today he is.  The whole was Jesus crucified or did God make it look like he was and put Judas in his place…no opinion on.  (I have read somewhere that there was a theory that Judas and Jesus were twins.  No idea on that either.)  I find the whole Shi'a/Sunni split disgraceful and sad…especially as it's based on events that happened 1400 or so years ago. Let's move on people.

 

I don't feel that any one religion is an exclusive, only way to God.  I think there are many paths.  I have friends of every faith and agnostic friends as well.  I find beauty in them all.

[Free]

I can't know there is no creator of any kind or that there is so I don't worry about it.

 

That seems like an atheistic position to me.

 

[Lady Florida.]

Even if you don't want to believe in a god, the Bible is the most historically accurate book that exists. 

 

You have said this before. Are you truly unaware of the numerous historical, scientific, and geographic inaccuracies in the bible? Many are contained in the New Testament, and more specifically the gospels. Do you not know this, or are you just unwilling to admit it? 

 

I would guess (and am probably on track) that a lot of you had already made up your minds to not believe in God before you even supposedly read the Bible.  If you read with a closed mind, you aren't going to believe anything you read. 

 

 

 

You would guess wrong then (and be off track).

 

Oy vey. The "those people aren't real Christians" argument now.

 

No True Scotsman. It shows up often in these kinds of threads.

[AlmiraGulch]

That seems like an atheistic position to me.

 

 

Agnostic, I think.

 

ETA:  I like what Lady Florida said in the next post better, so ignore my post and read hers instead.   :D

[Lady Florida.]

See, I don't get atheism either really.  It just seems like the flip side lol.  I can't know there is no creator of any kind or that there is so I don't worry about it.  I can see how being religious could be a comfort or oppressive, depending on the religion and how it is practiced.  

 

 

That seems like an atheistic position to me.

 

 

It is basically atheism. There's "I don't believe there is a god." and "I believe there is no god." We can't know, so most atheists go with the former rather than the latter. It's simply a matter of saying you don't think there are any deities and will go about life as if there aren't any. Atheism isn't a part of one's everyday life anymore than a-unicornism (sorry Sparkly) is a part of one's everyday life. The only reason atheists even have to discuss religion is because religious people often bring it up or try to legislate from the church pew.

[Free]

Agnostic, I think.

 

Atheists are also agnostic (well most atheists). No one can claim that they are 100% certain of the lack of existence of gods. And even if they do make such a claim, it is not going to be an evidence based claim. An atheistic position is that since there can be no evidence to clinch the case either way, and since there is likely to be no evidence forthcoming, one might as well consider for all practical purposes that there exists no god and live life accordingly.

 

[Nemom]

Luanne, perhaps you would like to start your own thread? The OP asked for reasons and insight from a specific group of people, those turning away from Christianity. You aren't addressing that -- you are merely arguing with the reasons people give and asserting your own judgement of those people, and without offering citations to support your arguments. If you wish to take discussion in that direction it would be more appropriate to start a spin-off thread.

As the OP-well put AMJ. Thank you.

[Occasionally]

Religion and Christianity are not the same thing.  Christianity is a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.  A lot of people who are very religious are not Christians at all.  They think they are, but they are not because they do not have that personal relationship with Jesus Christ.  You can be religious about a lot of different things, but it won't get you into heaven.

 

 

So you're telling me that I wasn't Christian anyway, right? So really I didn't "turn away" from it, no matter how religious I was. What a comfort. I was damned from the start because I didn't conform to what you say a real Christian is. :angelsad2:

 

I'm so sorry that you feel you need to speak this way to other people. :(

[AlmiraGulch]

Atheists are also agnostic (well most atheists). No one can claim that they are 100% certain of the lack of existence of gods. And even if they do make such a claim, it is not going to be an evidence based claim. An atheistic position is that since there can be no evidence to clinch the case either way, and since there is likely to be no evidence forthcoming, one might as well consider for all practical purposes that there exists no god and live life accordingly.

 

 

Semantics, I suppose.  

 

Still, I know several atheists who state "there is no god", as opposed to just "I don't believe that there is any god." 

 

My personal statement:  I do not believe in any god, and I do not believe there is any god.  The first half, in my estimation, is atheism, and the second half is agnosticism.  I think this is pretty much what you said, above.

 

My brother's personal statement:  I do not believe in any god because there is no god. He has no doubt that there is no god.  He acknowledges that no one really knows, because you cannot prove a negative, but he is truly convinced that there is none, where I say "meh...it's highly unlikely, but I really don't care either way."

 

Again, semantics, but I think the two things are different.

 

Doesn't matter anyway.  Kind of like the existence or lack thereof of a god.   :tongue_smilie:

[Free]

My brother's personal statement:  I do not believe in any god because there is no god. He has no doubt that there is no god.  He acknowledges that no one really knows, because you cannot prove a negative, but he is truly convinced that there is none, where I say "meh...it's highly unlikely, but I really don't care either way."

 

Again, semantics, but I think the two things are different.

 

I agree it is semantics and I agree that different people can feel more strongly or less on this. I don't see atheism as on/off, black/white, but more as a sliding scale. I am probably going to fall somewhere between your brother and you on that scale :laugh: . Your brother is an agnostic too btw because he acknowledges that one cannot know for sure. One can only know for certain if one has evidence and until then we are all agnostics. Agnosticism and Atheism are not mutually exclusive.

 

[ocelotmom]

Ugh, I just wrote out a big long reply and managed to lose it. I hate it when that happens.

 

I remember doubting when I was 6. The toddler of a church family had fallen into a pool and experienced significant brain damage. My mother went over to their house every few days to help with physical therapy. I went along with her one time, and remember asking in the car afterwards how we know God exists. In retrospect, that was probably a pretty rough question to ask a mother under those circumstances! I don't think I was consciously questioning how a loving god would let that happen to a toddler, or what a soul meant if someone's body was alive, but their brain basically dead, or any of those other existential questions that would stem from that, but I know the concept of a loving, intelligent, personal higher power didn't seem real at that point.

 

While most of my family and friends attended church of some sort, my father didn't. This taught me that good, loving, intelligent people could disbelieve in Christianity - they weren't some mysterious unimaginable group of "others".

 

As I got older, I started questioning my sexuality, and the horrible things some Christians said about gay people made me feel alienated both from the church and myself.

 

My church was a little strange. There were kids two years older than me, kids two years younger, and me. I was grouped in with the younger kids, so all the Sunday School stuff tended to feel childish. I'm not sure how much of an influence this really was, as age-appropriate teaching later didn't really do any more to convince me, but I'm sure it didn't help. I feel like there was a point between around 9 and 13 when I might have been temporarily converted if I'd been reached at my level, and not treated like a little kid intellectually. My brother, who did have agemates, ended up leading youth groups and Bible studies through college, though 

 

My mom made me continue attending church until I went through confirmation class. The class didn't do a whole lot to address any questions I had (again, it was really aimed at kids a few years younger than me - they didn't bother running a class when I was the intended age, since I was the only one. I asked the teacher (who was the minister's wife) why it was that people who had never been exposed to Christianity were just automatically condemned. Her answer was that, if they prayed hard enough, God would show them the way. What kind of answer is that? How are they supposed to know to pray? Why do people raised in Christianity get such a running head start on the redemption of their eternal soul? I would have been much happier if she'd just said she didn't know.

 

I ended up joining the LDS church because they did at least try to address this question in an equitable manner, but the answer they came up with didn't seem particularly likely or infallible, and I didn't last long there.

 

Like others have mentioned, I did have a "Wait, *that's* in the Bible????" situation a few years ago, not that it had any real influence on my beliefs at that point. I decided, from a secular point of view, that my kids needed some literacy in Christianity, and found an old public domain book of Bible stories. They included stories you don't commonly find in the modern kid's Bible canon, and they seemed as odd and unlikely to me as fairy tales.

[Hoot]

It is basically atheism. There's "I don't believe there is a god." and "I believe there is no god." We can't know, so most atheists go with the former rather than the latter. It's simply a matter of saying you don't think there are any deities and will go about life as if there aren't any. Atheism isn't a part of one's everyday life anymore than a-unicornism (sorry Sparkly) is a part of one's everyday life. The only reason atheists even have to discuss religion is because religious people often bring it up or try to legislate from the church pew.

 

That's it.  I'm becoming an A-unicornist.  I have found my people.  :laugh:

[Guest]

That's it. I'm becoming an A-unicornist. I have found my people. :laugh:

You've read Harry Potter, though. Are you saying Harry didn't see a true unicorn? That's not respectful of the wizards and witches who have experienced unicorns. Even Hagrid knows unicorns exist.

[Hoot]

You've read Harry Potter, though. Are you saying Harry didn't see a true unicorn? That's not respectful of the wizards and witches who have experienced unicorns. Even Hagrid knows unicorns exist.

 

Oooh and I do love me some Hagrid.  Darn it.  Now you're making me rethink my whole worldview. 

 

[Truscifi]

I have run out of likes again. But rest assured, I like the vast majority of posts in this thread.

[Lady Florida.]

Oooh and I do love me some Hagrid.  Darn it.  Now you're making me rethink my whole worldview. 

 

 

Me too. I was firmly in the a-unicornist camp until now.

[mamaraby]

I would guess (and am probably on track) that a lot of you had already made up your minds to not believe in God before you even supposedly read the Bible. If you read with a closed mind, you aren't going to believe anything you read.

 

Another misconception that I see a lot of is not knowing what a true Christian is. I have mentioned this before and will mention it again. A true Christian has a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. It has nothing to do with going to church or researching tons of religions. Christianity and religion are NOT the same thing. I feel sad that so many people have made it this far in their lives and have no idea what true Christianity is.

Wrong on so many accounts.

 

Personal relationship with Jesus? Check. Prayed the sinners prayer at least once? Check. Read the Bible while seriously believing it was true? Check - believed it so much that I went to Bible college with plans to go into ministry. Married a pastor for goodness sakes cuz I believed it so much. We were going to serve god together and all that.

 

Guess what? In spite of all my wishing, hoping, praying, believing, and desperately clinging to faith I still found belief in any god(s) something i could not continue the more I knew about the Bible and other religions. It's my serious study and Bible college degree that made me an atheist. As long as I knew less, I could believe. The more I knew, the less I found it believable.

 

I am an atheist as is my once pastor husband. Insisting otherwise is disrespectful and patronizing.

 

It's called "No True Scotsman."

[AMJ]

Like others have mentioned, I did have a "Wait, *that's* in the Bible????" situation a few years ago, not that it had any real influence on my beliefs at that point. I decided, from a secular point of view, that my kids needed some literacy in Christianity, and found an old public domain book of Bible stories. They included stories you don't commonly find in the modern kid's Bible canon, and they seemed as odd and unlikely to me as fairy tales.

 

Can you tell me what that book is titled, and the author/editor's name, please?  I have an interest in kids' books, and how materials are presented to them.  (I did a paper in college on how archaeology was presented to kids over the years in the 1900's.)  I'd like to look it up and check it out, just for my own curiosity.

 

[AMJ]

That's it.  I'm becoming an A-unicornist.  I have found my people.  :laugh:

 

Just so long as you still believe in dragons.  Or I will have to eat you.

 

"Beware of dragons, human, for you are crunchy, and taste good with ketchup."

[Aelwydd]

I would guess (and am probably on track) that a lot of you had already made up your minds to not believe in God before you even supposedly read the Bible. If you read with a closed mind, you aren't going to believe anything you read.

Your guess is completely off track. I read the Bible the first time at 12 years old, and reread it several times as a teen and young adult. I was a fervent believer and member of the Assemblies of God denomination, which is an evangelical branch. I was in Missionettes, youth group, Bible Quiz, Sunday School, choir, church summer camp every summer, and attended church 2-3 times a week. I attended a Bible college after high school. Not only did I read the Bible and want to believe it, my mind was firmly closed to any other possibilities.

 

 

Another misconception that I see a lot of is not knowing what a true Christian is. I have mentioned this before and will mention it again. A true Christian has a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. It has nothing to do with going to church or researching tons of religions. Christianity and religion are NOT the same thing. I feel sad that so many people have made it this far in their lives and have no idea what true Christianity is.

See my words above. I find it frustrating that you cannot comprehend that I believed very strongly in what I read and was taught in church. I didn't go looking for the end of my faith. It came to me. I didn't leave my belief; it left me. And the only remaining choice I had was do I lie and pretend I still believe these stories, or do I live honestly with myself and with others?

 

Please stop making assumptions, Luanne. You didn't live my experiences, so I don't know how you are qualified to judge them, or their veracity.

[ocelotmom]

Can you tell me what that book is titled, and the author/editor's name, please?  I have an interest in kids' books, and how materials are presented to them.  (I did a paper in college on how archaeology was presented to kids over the years in the 1900's.)  I'd like to look it up and check it out, just for my own curiosity.

 

 

You're in luck - I used Google Books for that one, and don't use it for much else, so it was easy to find. The Wonder Book of Bible Stories  by Logan Marshall. I never would have remembered that if I'd tried to find it again!

[LucyStoner]

I would guess (and am probably on track) that a lot of you had already made up your minds to not believe in God before you even supposedly read the Bible. If you read with a closed mind, you aren't going to believe anything you read.

 

 

Yes, I read the bible 6 times and planned to become a nun all because I'd pre-decided not to believe it was true.

 

You simply do not know what you do not know. You are judging people based on your preconceptions of anyone who disagrees with you.

[AMJ]

 

It's called "No True Scotsman."

 

Okay, I confess that until this thread I hadn't heard (to my recollection) of this "No True Scotsman" phrase, so I just googled it to see what came up.  I found a Wikipedia page on it, describing it as an informal fallacy.  Cool!  We are starting Art of Argument this fall, so I checked my table of contents, but I'm not finding it there.  I'll have to look elsewhere, I guess, to find ways to cover this fallacy.  Got any recommendations, anyone?  This fallacy will be an important component as the girls and I work our way through the topic of religions and religious cultures.

 

 

 

 

Now for my confession of irreverent thoughts about the topic:

 

When I first was reading the posts that listed this I thought it had something to do with kilts (a reasonable suspicion, knowing the members of these forums).  When I glance at the start of the Wikipedia page it had a disambiguation note at the top directing readers looking for the page on undergarments or lack thereof under kilts to the True Scotsman page.  All of this, I confess, immediately brought to my mind the question, "If 'True Scotsman' equals 'True Christian' does that mean you cannot be True if you wear underwear?"  :w00t:

 

What is my penance for absolution?

[AMJ]

You're in luck - I used Google Books for that one, and don't use it for much else, so it was easy to find. The Wonder Book of Bible Stories  by Logan Marshall. I never would have remembered that if I'd tried to find it again!

Thank you!

 

[Joanne]

Okay, I confess that until this thread I hadn't heard (to my recollection) of this "No True Scotsman" phrase, so I just googled it to see what came up.  I found a Wikipedia page on it, describing it as an informal fallacy.  Cool!  We are starting Art of Argument this fall, so I checked my table of contents, but I'm not finding it there.  I'll have to look elsewhere, I guess, to find ways to cover this fallacy.  Got any recommendations, anyone?  This fallacy will be an important component as the girls and I work our way through the topic of religions and religious cultures.

 

 

 

 

Now for my confession of irreverent thoughts about the topic:

 

When I first was reading the posts that listed this I thought it had something to do with kilts (a reasonable suspicion, knowing the members of these forums).  When I glance at the start of the Wikipedia page it had a disambiguation note at the top directing readers looking for the page on undergarments or lack thereof under kilts to the True Scotsman page.  All of this, I confess, immediately brought to my mind the question, "If 'True Scotsman' equals 'True Christian' does that mean you cannot be True if you wear underwear?"  :w00t:

 

What is my penance for absolution?

 

When I taught at the Community College and when I teach English 12, I teach a logical fallacy unit. Purdue OWL has decent summary info. I checked, and they don't have the informal fallacies.

 

I always start the unit with a youtube showing of the "She's a Witch" scene from Monty Python.

 

[Cindy in FL.]

OT, but I love that movie!

 

When I taught at the Community College and when I teach English 12, I teach a logical fallacy unit. Purdue OWL has decent summary info. I checked, and they don't have the informal fallacies.

 

I always start the unit with a youtube showing of the "She's a Witch" scene from Monty Python.

[PrairieSong]

Number 2 is true of Christians and non-Christians alike. I see a lot of non-Christians using all kinds of things as weapons against others. And for your information, the people you are referring to as Christians, aren't truly Christians. A lot of people call themselves Christians and have no personal relationship with Jesus at all. They don't know the true meaning of Christianity, just like you.

What if the tables were turned and others were telling you that you weren't a true Christian, had never been one, and didn't know the meaning of Christianity? Would that be okay? If not, why not? Maybe because the people saying that don't really know you. They can't see inside your heart.

 

The people on this thread have been sharing their personal experiences. It's not up to you or me or anyone else to judge those experiences. We cannot see into their hearts and minds. We haven't walked their paths. Please stop being dismissive.

[Cindy in FL.]

I don't want to butt into your thread here, but I did want to say that I would wish we could treat one another with dignity and respect. Hopefully you KWIM. I am interested in reading your stories and respect them for what they are: an accounting of what you have experienced. Thanks for sharing them because it helps us all to learn more about one another. I appreciate the humanity in everyone I meet regardless of whether or not we agree about everything. I hope and wish the best for each and every one of you!

[PrairieSong]

I don't want to butt into your thread here, but I did want to say that I would wish we could treat one another with dignity and respect. Hopefully you KWIM. I am interested in reading your stories and respect them for what they are: an accounting of what you have experienced. Thanks for sharing them because it helps us all to learn more about one another. I appreciate the humanity in everyone I meet regardless of whether or not we agree about everything. I hope and wish the best for each and every one of you!

Me too.

[SadieMarie]

Hmmm, I think of myself as agnostic. I would never say that I don't believe in a creator deity or that I do. I am perched very comfortably on the fence thankyouverymuch and happy to be here lol.

[Elfknitter.#]

Hmmm, I think of myself as agnostic. I would never say that I don't believe in a creator deity or that I do. I am perched very comfortably on the fence thankyouverymuch and happy to be here lol.

High-five! Exactly where I've been since age 12. I may lean from one side to the other, but I never seem to get off the fence.

[SadieMarie]

High-five! Exactly where I've been since age 12. I may lean from one side to the other, but I never seem to get off the fence.

Lol, the view is very nice.

[TeacherZee]

Hmmm, I think of myself as agnostic. I would never say that I don't believe in a creator deity or that I do. I am perched very comfortably on the fence thankyouverymuch and happy to be here lol.

  

High-five! Exactly where I've been since age 12. I may lean from one side to the other, but I never seem to get off the fence.

  

Lol, the view is very nice.

I too enjoy the view.

[Truscifi]

You know, it is true that I have never been a true Christian in terms of this "personal relationship" people talk about. Largely because I was 8 when I realized the god described in the Bible and in my aunt's church was not one I was interested in worshipping. Elisha and the bears, Lot and his daughters, Paul and...well, pretty much everything Paul said. I do like Christ though. He seems like a pretty awesome guy.

 

But, and this is important, *I* am the only one who knows what I believe/believed.

[NotSoObvious]

I would guess (and am probably on track) that a lot of you had already made up your minds to not believe in God before you even supposedly read the Bible. If you read with a closed mind, you aren't going to believe anything you read.

 

Another misconception that I see a lot of is not knowing what a true Christian is. I have mentioned this before and will mention it again. A true Christian has a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. It has nothing to do with going to church or researching tons of religions. Christianity and religion are NOT the same thing. I feel sad that so many people have made it this far in their lives and have no idea what true Christianity is.

This is why I'm not a Christian.

 

ETA: sigh. In case it needs an explanation, it's the superiority complex and arrogance of "having all the answers" or "being the true church" (I was Mormon) that I finally couldn't take anymore. I love my Mormon friends. I love my Christian friends. I'm just happy with not attaching myself to their belief systems anymore.

[apennieformythoughts]

Threads like these are helpful to people like me who don't know where they stand on this issue. I grew up in a Christian household, I know what Christianity is, and what it means to be the "real Christian" LuAnne is talking about. How do you know who a real Christian is? Because if you think that you're a real Christian because you have a "personal relationship" with Christ, but then you turn around and you condemn the immigrant children that come here (not putting this on LuAnne, it's just an example) and don't want to help them... then I don't consider you a "real Christian." Would that sit well with you, or anyone who fell into that camp? Probably not. Further, "real Christians" wouldn't be so divisive, don't you think? You would want to show Christ to people, so you would treat them kindly, yes? Not all the time, I get it. People aren't perfect, we make mistakes, all that jazz. I know. But it's ridiculous that people who don't believe are held to some higher moral standard, but Christians can be absolutely disgusting human beings (again, not putting this on you LuAnne), but it's ok because "they know Jesus." It doesn't make any sense at all. 

 

It is mostly the fear of hell (and I was raised Lutheran, in a homey church I loved) and "maybe" God exists that keeps me from saying I don't believe. And because I agree with some fundamental teachings of Christ. Then again, I agree with the fundamental teachings of a few different religions. So where does that put me? Confused. That's where it puts me. LOL! 

[SadieMarie]

Threads like these are helpful to people like me who don't know where they stand on this issue. I grew up in a Christian household, I know what Christianity is, and what it means to be the "real Christian" LuAnne is talking about. How do you know who a real Christian is? Because if you think that you're a real Christian because you have a "personal relationship" with Christ, but then you turn around and you condemn the immigrant children that come here (not putting this on LuAnne, it's just an example) and don't want to help them... then I don't consider you a "real Christian." Would that sit well with you, or anyone who fell into that camp? Probably not. Further, "real Christians" wouldn't be so divisive, don't you think? You would want to show Christ to people, so you would treat them kindly, yes? Not all the time, I get it. People aren't perfect, we make mistakes, all that jazz. I know. But it's ridiculous that people who don't believe are held to some higher moral standard, but Christians can be absolutely disgusting human beings (again, not putting this on you LuAnne), but it's ok because "they know Jesus." It doesn't make any sense at all.

 

It is mostly the fear of hell (and I was raised Lutheran, in a homey church I loved) and "maybe" God exists that keeps me from saying I don't believe. And because I agree with some fundamental teachings of Christ. Then again, I agree with the fundamental teachings of a few different religions. So where does that put me? Confused. That's where it puts me. LOL!

Plenty of room on the fence.