mitzvahmommy Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 I am schooling my two oldest boys only this upcoming year (two will be in private school and one is in a public school autism program). We had a very hard year this past year - relocating, boys fighting most of the time, going from ADHD to ODD in the case of one. We are beginning a period of intensive family counseling and behavior coaching through a state agency, starting in the next few weeks, with up to six hours of individual counseling per child, mentors, respite help for me, parenting coaching for my husband and I, and most likely we will break down and discuss medication options for ADHD. But since it is through a state agency, the process can be slow going. My relationship with the oldest is fine, but is in a really low place with the ODD guy. The relationship of the two boys with each other is worse than awful right now. They get in yelling matches and physical fights from almost the moment they open their eyes in the morning til bed. I would love to separate them for this upcoming school year, but neither fits well into any local school options - the oldest is profoundly gifted, ADHD and Aspie, the second guy is severely dyslexic, violent when angry, and two grade levels behind already, not to mention the severe behavioral challenges and super-wiggly ADHD. My question is this - it may take us months and months to get to a better place emotionally in the family, supporting the ODD kid enough that his self-esteem rebounds, and it may take months for us to try out and commit to medicating the boys and finding the right medication. In the meantime, I would like to do SOME school work with them. My oldest reads so much that he basically unschools himself, but there are math and religious studies skills that I want him to build. #2has so much work we could do, if he would agree to do it, but he has always been dragged to the table to do even 5 minutes of reading/LA/Math, anything but history. #3 who is two years younger has lapped him in a few subjects, and though #3 never ever teases #2, I can see the huge toll this is taking on the self-esteem of #2. For the purpose of providing #2 structure, gaining much needed skills, and keeping him anywhere near the same ballpark with his peers, I want to work with him for four 15 minute sessions each day for the upcoming school year, minimum. Reduce demands but require that he make it to the table for those sessions each day. Is it possible? Is it a bad idea? Given him current ODD status, should I try to find a behavioral school to take him, and remove the teacher/student relationship from our lives? Assuming he is staying home with me, would you discuss with him the structure of the day, get his input on when and what will be in our work sessions, and then have him sign a contract? I know with near certainty that after just a couple of days he will not want to struggle through reading etc and just refuse to work. "I don't have to and you can't make me" has been the motto for the last two weeks. What would you do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiMi 4under3 Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 I'm wondering what would happen if he broke the contract. Would there be certain consequences? And could you stick with them and enforce them? A contract is a good idea, but only if it doesn't undermine your authority when broken. :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coco_Clark Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 My natural impulse would be to sit with them one on one, on a "good" day (relative of course to most days) and tell them that these are your goals, this is why, and ask them honestly if they have any ideas how to make this work. I could see a contract working for *some* kids but not really *these* kids. Do you think they would be inspired to honor a contract? You may want to cross post in the Learning Challenges Board. There will be more people there with experience working with ADHD/ODD/Aspergers/Dyslexia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracy Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 How old are they? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosie_0801 Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 I think contracts would set everyone up to fail. It sounds like he couldn't hold himself to it even if he wanted to. :grouphug: :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MinivanMom Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 *Gently* I would not homeschool the ODD son based on what you described. I understand that you feel the public school options are not great for him at this time, but neither is refusing to do any work at home. If his being at home will cause conflict with your gifted Aspie son and suck up your emotional energy (which violent outbursts will do with the best of us), then not only is the ODD son failing to get an education, but he will be disrupting his brother's education as well. Are you willing to disrupt the education of your gifted Aspie when ODD son won't be working or learning at home anyway? I'm not going to ask to what led to the involvement of the state agency, but I understand (without having any personal experience myself) that children who have been diagnosed with ODD are extremely challenging and stressful. If it has reached the point where you need respite care, parenting coaching, and that level of counseling, then you probably need the break from your ODD son that public school will bring. It doesn't mean you don't love him or care about him; in fact, that daily break may be just what you both need to rebuild your relationship. It may be better for your relationship and for the family as a whole if ODD son was in public school for a season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrar Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 My limited experience with kids with ODD would suggest that you should not homeschool your ODD ds, especially not when there's another child whose needs you need to meet. I know you say the options don't look good for him, but I think your energy might be better spent advocating for him rather than educating him. I could be wrong, but that's my first response. :( I generally like behavior contracts with kids, especially when they have two sides - obligations for the parent/teacher as well. However, in this circumstance, I'm not sure if it would work. I'd broach the issue with the counselor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 I think I would have the ODD boy go to PS, and then offer to help him after school with studies, if he would appreciate that. If he did want your help, then a contract would make sense to set out each of your obligations. If not, it would not have to be part of the whole opposition situation for you to work with him as a teacher at all, and you would not have to deal with the dynamics between the two boys during the day. You could have a contract with ds#1 in place as a model and to see how it works with a less oppositional child first. If ds#2 were to wish for you to school him instead of going to PS, that could be a potential option depending on his behavior making it possible to do that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitzvahmommy Posted July 31, 2014 Author Share Posted July 31, 2014 Such amazing advice guys thanks! Just to clarify, a state agency did not get involved (there has been NO child abuse, thank G-D!), but we are very blessed to have a state program in New Jersey, where we moved last year, that provides hours and hours of free counseling, and many other supports, to families who qualify, and the qualification is based only on the need of each child for such services, not on income. I have been struggling all year against competing priorities of honoring my husband, and facing his denial about our kids' situations, and his refusal to consider any ADHD medication. It has been such a struggle, with many tear-filled conversations with G-D - "what do You want from me? How can I advocate for my kids and honor my husband at the same time?". It has been exhausting on all fronts. I found an excellent counselor who could come into the home, on Sundays, with my husband here, and work with our whole family (as I know the defiant, ODD looking kid needs us all to be on the same, loving page and not feel like the bad guy), but it would cost nearly $2000 for 12 weeks. We could rob from my homeschooling budget to afford it, and I was so happy to do that, but my husband put his foot down and said no. I was at the end of my rope, when we went camping, and in the tent next to us was a woman who works for this state program. As our kids were playing, she and I chatted, and she gave me this amazing solution, this free program through the state. So "state agency" was the wrong term I guess. It doesn't matter, she was an angel, the program will hopefully be a blessing, and I hope in a year we will all be in a much better place. Public school is not an option for religious reasons, my husband would NEVER agree, and there is no Jewish school around that will accept my son right now, I am quite sure. I had another idea - what if I lay out the "federal requirements" by grade for homeschooling that we "must" meet, and we both sign a contract to meet them. This would involve some deception, and I am really against deceiving my kids. But I would draw the guidelines from real sources. We don't encourage our kids to "punch a clock", but I have to make the progress measurable, so math requirements might be "150 hours of math education at the 3rd grade level to include mastery of...". I would put a visual on the wall for each subject requirement (i.e. a rocket ship to the moon, climbing a mountain etc), and say that we have until the school year ends to finish the requirements and turn in our logs to the state. Then I am not the bad guy, I give ownership of the progress to him (if he doesn't feel like working on math that day, no problem, as long as he minds his progress), and take the daily battles out of the picture in favor of reaching broader goals. Again, we don't like setting up education as a chore for him, hours to complete, etc, not our favorite way to do this. But he is listening to history audio books right now in his room already for a couple of hours and it is 8:30 in the morning, we are touring a trout hatchery tomorrow, and visiting a historic farm on Monday - he gets plenty of "non-school" self-education and unschooling. He built a teepee with me for a few hours yesterday and lectured to me the entire time about the history of Native Americans, what true teepees are constructed from, NA "Gods" and their religion, hunting practices, on and on. So I would set up these requirements for language arts, math and handwriting (he has dysgraphia and well and has to work on handwriting, but HATES it). Maybe I would include P.E. and Art, and of course all normal guidelines have science and social studies, which he loves, maybe I would chart these for authenticity, but I am concerned about touching his favorite subjects with any requirements - G-d forbid I turn them into a chore for him. Do you think this system of meeting false requirements would work? Or is it awful to consider deceiving my children in this way? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitzvahmommy Posted July 31, 2014 Author Share Posted July 31, 2014 Just to add - perhaps the counseling team that comes will suggest a great public school program for my son. Is anyone else married to a man for whom something is never true when it comes out of your mouth, but if anyone else says the same thing, suddenly it sounds like pure wisdom :)? Ten years of marriage, and I have begun to save my breath and find someone else to say the things to my husband I know he doesn't want to hear from me - whatever gets the job done! So even though I know he would balk at the suggestion of public school now, perhaps he will listen to the recommendations of the team (who had 36 hours to contact me and start the process, which came and went with no call on Tuesday :( I really hope this works out, because I am pinning a lot of hopes and prayers on it!). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 .... Public school is not an option for religious reasons, my husband would NEVER agree, and there is no Jewish school around that will accept my son right now, I am quite sure. ####Ummm. Sorry to seem dense, but what is the issue? Maybe it can be worked around somehow?#### I had another idea - what if I lay out the "federal requirements" by grade for homeschooling that we "must" meet, and we both sign a contract to meet them. This would involve some deception, and I am really against deceiving my kids. But I would draw the guidelines from real sources. We don't encourage our kids to "punch a clock", but I have to make the progress measurable, so math requirements might be "150 hours of math education at the 3rd grade level to include mastery of...". I would put a visual on the wall for each subject requirement (i.e. a rocket ship to the moon, climbing a mountain etc), and say that we have until the school year ends to finish the requirements and turn in our logs to the state. Then I am not the bad guy, I give ownership of the progress to him (if he doesn't feel like working on math that day, no problem, as long as he minds his progress), and take the daily battles out of the picture in favor of reaching broader goals. Again, we don't like setting up education as a chore for him, hours to complete, etc, not our favorite way to do this. But he is listening to history audio books right now in his room already for a couple of hours and it is 8:30 in the morning, we are touring a trout hatchery tomorrow, and visiting a historic farm on Monday - he gets plenty of "non-school" self-education and unschooling. He built a teepee with me for a few hours yesterday and lectured to me the entire time about the history of Native Americans, what true teepees are constructed from, NA "Gods" and their religion, hunting practices, on and on. So I would set up these requirements for language arts, math and handwriting (he has dysgraphia and well and has to work on handwriting, but HATES it). Maybe I would include P.E. and Art, and of course all normal guidelines have science and social studies, which he loves, maybe I would chart these for authenticity, but I am concerned about touching his favorite subjects with any requirements - G-d forbid I turn them into a chore for him. Do you think this system of meeting false requirements would work? Or is it awful to consider deceiving my children in this way? He's in third grade? It sounds like the only real issue is math. I would let him "unschool" all the things he loves--that sounds like it is going wonderfully in fact. Why don't you choose a 3rd grade math program with his input and make the requirement to do that program...he could own how and when and be responsible for coming to you for help when he needs it. If nothing else, Spectrum workbooks, while not the greatest, are reasonably decent and not too terribly long and intimidating looking. Or maybe something like Beast Academy with its cartoons would appeal to him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JumpyTheFrog Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 I think deep down you already know that lying to your kids (about "federal requirements") is wrong and works against the moral teachings you hope to impart. I wish you well in finding another more honest way to get them to cooperate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 Yes, I agree that you should not lie about Federal Requirements. OTOH, this might be a time to look and see what your state's requirements are if any, or to make use of Common Core as a standard that he should aspire to at least in math where the problem seems to be with him not wanting to do it on his own. ... or just to get a good standard curriculum in math for his grade and expect him to do that....whether he chooses to do a lot in one day or a bit each day of the week could be up to him, but you could have a contract that stipulates a certain amount per week that would get it all done in the course of the year. He could of course get it done sooner if he wanted to and were able. Any subjects like history and science that he does happily, just rejoice and don't turn them into something he will hate by imposing extra requirements. If he is doing those, he is probably also reading. And, frankly, if he is in 3rd grade, I personally think you can let the writing go for a year while you work on emotions and other things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haiku Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 If your sons are getting in daily fistfights, I would not homeschool them. And 1 hour, broken into 15-minute sessions, will not move your son forward. He may barely tread water on that amount of time. It's also not fair to your other son to disrupt his education trying to deal with the violent child. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haiku Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 I'm unclear how public school is not an option when you state that one of your kids is in public school. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChelC Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 I understand trying to honor your husband, but I believe we are required to do so as our husband's honor God. Your husband does not sound like he is being reasonable. I think it's time for you to tell your husband straight up what you are willing and unwilling to do and let the chips fall where they may. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlsdMama Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 I am wondering if you have remediated the dyslexia. Do you understand dyslexia as far as hidden gifts as well so you can explain to him the science behind his brain? I should think understanding how his brain works will go a very long way towards self esteem and effort.... It is a great relief to these kids much of the time to find out they aren't stupid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitzvahmommy Posted August 5, 2014 Author Share Posted August 5, 2014 As always, great input. My five year old is in a local public school autism program. We live in a neighborhood with a really awful public school system. Many of the families are living below the poverty line and many of the kids don't experience stability at home. Culturally, there is such a wide gap between the music, dress, behavior, language and images we would want our kids to be exposed to and what is common in the public school environment. Because my five year old is in a self contained class room with 6 other autistic 5 year olds, we are working through the public school system to get him services. If I put my 9 year old intense kid into that school system, I think he might try smoking a cigarette by the end of the week. It is just not an appealing option. But if he really needs help, we will make it work. By the way, a counselor was with our family all day (as in 8 hours!) on Sunday, just the start of this amazing free program. Several times throughout the day she told me that my husband and I are raising great kids in a very loving home, kids who love each other but who are all intense non-conformists, but who are obviously great kids doing very well. She said my 9 year old does NOT have anything close to ODD, just is an intense kid. The fighting is an issue, but when she talked to the boys each privately, they said they missed the time when they could play for hours without fighting and want to learn skills to get back to that. She correctly guessed that as soon as they touch each other in a fight I imagine blood when it is once in a few months that the fighting actually results in someone getting hurt. Apparently that constitutes typical sibling fights. What do I know, I grew up a Quaker with one younger sister! We never fought, much less solved a fight with our hands! When she left, she basically told me that I have a huge pile on my plate, with 5 kids born within 5 years, three of them profoundly gifted, two autistic, three with ADHD and a husband who can't quite cope or face the situation yet. So she is getting me help - counseling for the boys to improve impulse control, conflict resolution, anger management, mentors for the boys to play basketball with one while I take the other for one on one time or to a class. Also respite time for me, so I can go to a doctor's appointment or (gasp!) the grocery store without all five kids! So basically I am blowing things out of proportion in terms of the severity of the state of our home and the emotional health of our kids, but underestimating how overwhelmed I am allowed to feel and the amount of help I need. I also got to hear my husband say that my oldest has high-functioning autism (first time he has ever done that out loud), that the 9 year old guy needs to learn to control his anger and that he will get behind a plan to help him, and to agree out loud that we have to make decisions together and write out a plan together. Whew! I didn't read these replies in time, and went ahead with my plan -sort of. I printed out the typical curriculum recommendations from the World Book site, as well as samples from Common Core. I took each of the boys out to the bagel shop separately, showed them the suggested curriculum, sketched out with them how many hours it might take to meet the suggestions for the subject areas we struggle to get done (math), we laughed at the suggestions for our favorite areas (history and science), as we are so far beyond those. We took great ideas from the area of Health and Safety, deciding together to add a First Aid course to our plans for the upcoming year, and talked about the lack of art and music and community service in the suggestions, and how sad that made us. We added that in to our structure. We then wrote up a MUTUAL contract as a way to show our commitment and motivate ourselves over this next year to meet these goals. At the end of those meetings I wondered what the big problems were that I was imagining, and the counselor confirmed it on Sunday. What a difference a few days makes..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneStepAtATime Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 :grouphug: good luck. glad things look better Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pronghorn Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 I wonder if you could mention the name of the New Jersey program, just in case someone living in New Jersey is also struggling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitzvahmommy Posted August 5, 2014 Author Share Posted August 5, 2014 Yes, it is call Performcare. I have no idea how or why it is free, and the counselor who came also said that it is an incredibly rare program, that she doesn't even understand how it exists. Just by chance, the counselor who came is trained in the Nurtured Heart approach, which is the approach we have been using with our kids for about 3 years already. She said that the kids really will get up to six hours of in home counseling PER CHILD per week - not one on one all of the time, also just playing with the kids, watching them play from the sidelines. But a counselor will be in the house up to 30 hours a week. Plus mentors. Plus respite. All free. But don't move here for the program, New Jersey is expensive and crowded and not a very pretty place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pronghorn Posted August 6, 2014 Share Posted August 6, 2014 Thanks. I already live in New Jersey. I was just thinking that I could recommend it if I have any friends who get overwhelmed with parenting challenges. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LLMom Posted August 6, 2014 Share Posted August 6, 2014 *Gently* I would not homeschool the ODD son based on what you described. I understand that you feel the public school options are not great for him at this time, but neither is refusing to do any work at home. If his being at home will cause conflict with your gifted Aspie son and suck up your emotional energy (which violent outbursts will do with the best of us), then not only is the ODD son failing to get an education, but he will be disrupting his brother's education as well. Are you willing to disrupt the education of your gifted Aspie when ODD son won't be working or learning at home anyway? I'm not going to ask to what led to the involvement of the state agency, but I understand (without having any personal experience myself) that children who have been diagnosed with ODD are extremely challenging and stressful. If it has reached the point where you need respite care, parenting coaching, and that level of counseling, then you probably need the break from your ODD son that public school will bring. It doesn't mean you don't love him or care about him; in fact, that daily break may be just what you both need to rebuild your relationship. It may be better for your relationship and for the family as a whole if ODD son was in public school for a season. I agree with this completely. My oldest ds was diagnosed ODD at age 10 and was exactly as you described. I homeschooled him the whole way through and regret it. It was so hard. There is not even a word for it. He has a crummy self-esteem, has had legal troubles, abuses substances, etc. He is 21 now, but I kept him home hoping to protect him from all of these things. They can/will get into these things wherever they are. Also, I don't know if this is the case with your ds, but mine could put on an act for a limited time for people like counselors. I am not clear on how the one that came to your home was so quickly able to tell you he is not ODD if it was the first visit. If the fighting/struggles are intense everyday, causing things to not get done (as in school, chores, etc) then I think it is more than normal sibling/parent/child issues. Forgot to add, you may notice I am no longer homeschooling any of my dc. He is a big part of the reason. He wore me out, and I have 2 younger children a lot like him. I just couldn't do it anymore. It was that intense for us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest CarterAckes Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 As always, great input. My five year old is in a local public school autism program. We live in a neighborhood with a really awful public school system. Many of the families are living below the poverty line and many of the kids don't experience stability at home. Culturally, there is such a wide gap between the music, dress, behavior, language and images we would want our kids to be exposed to and what is common in the public school environment. Because my five year old is in a self contained class room with 6 other autistic 5 year olds, we are working through the public school system to get him services. If I put my 9 year old intense kid into that school system, I think he might try smoking ecigs by the end of the week. It is just not an appealing option. But if he really needs help, we will make it work. By the way, a counselor was with our family all day (as in 8 hours!) on Sunday, just the start of this amazing free program. Several times throughout the day she told me that my husband and I are raising great kids in a very loving home, kids who love each other but who are all intense non-conformists, but who are obviously great kids doing very well. She said my 9 year old does NOT have anything close to ODD, just is an intense kid. The fighting is an issue, but when she talked to the boys each privately, they said they missed the time when they could play for hours without fighting and want to learn skills to get back to that. She correctly guessed that as soon as they touch each other in a fight I imagine blood when it is once in a few months that the fighting actually results in someone getting hurt. Apparently that constitutes typical sibling fights. What do I know, I grew up a Quaker with one younger sister! We never fought, much less solved a fight with our hands! When she left, she basically told me that I have a huge pile on my plate, with 5 kids born within 5 years, three of them profoundly gifted, two autistic, three with ADHD and a husband who can't quite cope or face the situation yet. So she is getting me help - counseling for the boys to improve impulse control, conflict resolution, anger management, mentors for the boys to play basketball with one while I take the other for one on one time or to a class. Also respite time for me, so I can go to a doctor's appointment or (gasp!) the grocery store without all five kids! So basically I am blowing things out of proportion in terms of the severity of the state of our home and the emotional health of our kids, but underestimating how overwhelmed I am allowed to feel and the amount of help I need. I also got to hear my husband say that my oldest has high-functioning autism (first time he has ever done that out loud), that the 9 year old guy needs to learn to control his anger and that he will get behind a plan to help him, and to agree out loud that we have to make decisions together and write out a plan together. Whew! I didn't read these replies in time, and went ahead with my plan -sort of. I printed out the typical curriculum recommendations from the World Book site, as well as samples from Common Core. I took each of the boys out to the bagel shop separately, showed them the suggested curriculum, sketched out with them how many hours it might take to meet the suggestions for the subject areas we struggle to get done (math), we laughed at the suggestions for our favorite areas (history and science), as we are so far beyond those. We took great ideas from the area of Health and Safety, deciding together to add a First Aid course to our plans for the upcoming year, and talked about the lack of art and music and community service in the suggestions, and how sad that made us. We added that in to our structure. We then wrote up a MUTUAL contract as a way to show our commitment and motivate ourselves over this next year to meet these goals. At the end of those meetings I wondered what the big problems were that I was imagining, and the counselor confirmed it on Sunday. What a difference a few days makes..... Congratulations.. Your efforts are getting paid and I really hope things will going to improve.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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