My dilemma--TOG and MOH--what would you do?

[LAmom]

So, I have TOG Yr2 Units 2 and 3.  I LOVE the idea of TOG and have been trying to force it to work for my family.  I am nervous about the upcoming school year and trying to make it work.  I understand the history lite aspect of TOG for LG.  I plan to utilize that idea and not stress (though SOTW would just be easier and flow better....I don't do it because I wanted more for my 6th grader).  

 

Now, my hesitation is that I am worried I am putting too much planning time into it, money (lots of books!!), and that I really won't have time to utilize TOG the way I want...at least in this season of life.

 

I know that I could use MOH 3 and get it done.  It isn't exactly what I want, but history would get done and then I could focus on basics (especially the younger K, 2, 4 graders that need it!).

 

BUT, my hesitation is the fact that I have planned and purchased Yr 2, Unit 2 and ready to go.   :(  It would be a financial loss (for now, I guess if I use TOG in the future it would be ok).  Do I just try out Unit 2 for 9 weeks and then reevaluate?  I do not currently own MOH 3.  And I cannot find anything that lines up MOH 3 with SOTW 3 which I would love (because of the SOTW 3 audio!).

[AdventuresinHomeschooling]

I would try the 9 weeks with TOG and re-evaluate.  You already purchased it.  It has options to line up with SOTW, and you can work with it to see if you can tweak it to your liking.  If it proves unworkable, you can order what you want, no problem.

 

Another option would be to consider a spine (or even up to 2 or 3 spines) for the time period you are studying in SOTW with the youngers, and have the older read from the spine with some writing assignments, projects and extra supplemental reading.  There are even several reading suggestions in SOTW Activity Guides, or you can look through TOG Bookshelf for reading assignment ideas.  This would make it meatier for your older student, but having the spine as the minimum would ensure it gets done, and if they're tagging along with SOTW, they can help with some of the projects there too.  A little less open and go, but it could be a good cost effective way to blend the two.  

[JadeOrchidSong]

LAmom,

I also struggled with history choices. After using TOG 4 and TOG 1, i was ready to take a break. But now since a friend who loaned me TOG 1 year plan and lots of books will loan me TOG 2 with lots of books, and after checking out MOH, I feel that TOG has much more to offer than MOH and the books are already scheduled for each week. I will use the history, literature, geography, and church history. We won't do the hands-in stuff because we did that with Story of the World 1-3. So after the hesitation about TOG, now i am back to it and will probably stick to it for severals to come. I will be serious about scheduling discussion time and tests for dc.

You can do TOG somewhat fully with your oldest and let your younger listen to SOTW 2 scheduled each week in TOG and get a few TOG books for them. Do one or no activity each week with all depending on if your kids like it. Substitute another when a book is not available in the library. This way all your kids' needs are met. It might just work. Give it a try.

[coffeegal]

What do you want out of TOG? Can you define a successful year?

 

TOG is meant for older children to work through it mostly independently, so you have more time to spend with your younger children. This means, give the reading assignments to your oldest. Cut the readings down if necessary, but let your independent readers read. On Fridays sit down, have some tea and cookies, and discuss what your child(ren) read and studied over the past week. Later you can add activities, writing assignments, and art studies. For now, just focus on history and literature.

 

The bulk of your time is spent on your younger children, the non-readers, who need the one-on-one attention.

 

Just remember, TOG isn't meant to be done fully the first time through. It builds on itself, and your oldest is only 6th grade. You have 6 years before your oldest graduates. Next time around your oldest children will be that much more mature and independent. Define your history goals for this school year and work from there. :001_smile:

 

 

 

 

[LAmom]

What do you want out of TOG? Can you define a successful year?

 

TOG is meant for older children to work through it mostly independently, so you have more time to spend with your younger children. This means, give the reading assignments to your oldest. Cut the readings down if necessary, but let your independent readers read. On Fridays sit down, have some tea and cookies, and discuss what your child(ren) read and studied over the past week. Later you can add activities, writing assignments, and art studies. For now, just focus on history and literature.

 

The bulk of your time is spent on your younger children, the non-readers, who need the one-on-one attention.

 

Just remember, TOG isn't meant to be done fully the first time through. It builds on itself, and your oldest is only 6th grade. You have 6 years before your oldest graduates. Next time around your oldest children will be that much more mature and independent. Define your history goals for this school year and work from there. :001_smile:

 

 

I want my children to learn history!  I want them to be able to know dates and places very well (I wish TOG had an added memory section...).  I want them to actually retain what they are learning.  I guess I could just focus on some fun facts and have them listen to SOTW and leave it at that.

 

My older dd is not fond of the idea of independent history.  She use to like listening to SOTW as a family, listening to MOH read to her, and doing MFW together.  Should I encourage the independence?  Or should I keep her with when I read to the younger crew?  Maybe she could help with that reading?  I understand that TOG wants the older kids to be independent and I do see that as useful for the future.  I just don't want to make her hate history right now.  AND, I do not see my 4th grader ever being able to keep up with the pace of TOG in UG and D years (when he is in 6th and older).  Hand him a book and read it independently?  I can't fathom.  Hopefully by then he will have changed a lot in his reading level, etc.  I still have time to get him ready for that.  I just don't know how hard to push my kids.  Ya know?

 

Thanks for the advice.  I will try TOG for 9 weeks and then reassess.  I do own Unit 3 but haven't planned yet, so I could switch if I needed to.  Sometimes I think a box curriculum for each student at their grade level would be the way to go.  Maybe trying to get this 4-year history with all the family isn't working.  I don't know.  I love TOG but maybe it just isn't for us.  I am sure I will know better after the next 9 weeks.  I planned a little more this time than Unit 1.

[coffeegal]

I want my children to learn history!  I want them to be able to know dates and places very well (I wish TOG had an added memory section...).  I want them to actually retain what they are learning.  I guess I could just focus on some fun facts and have them listen to SOTW and leave it at that.

 

My older dd is not fond of the idea of independent history.  She use to like listening to SOTW as a family, listening to MOH read to her, and doing MFW together.  Should I encourage the independence?  Or should I keep her with when I read to the younger crew?  Maybe she could help with that reading?  I understand that TOG wants the older kids to be independent and I do see that as useful for the future.  I just don't want to make her hate history right now.  AND, I do not see my 4th grader ever being able to keep up with the pace of TOG in UG and D years (when he is in 6th and older).  Hand him a book and read it independently?  I can't fathom.  Hopefully by then he will have changed a lot in his reading level, etc.  I still have time to get him ready for that.  I just don't know how hard to push my kids.  Ya know?

 

Thanks for the advice.  I will try TOG for 9 weeks and then reassess.  I do own Unit 3 but haven't planned yet, so I could switch if I needed to.  Sometimes I think a box curriculum for each student at their grade level would be the way to go.  Maybe trying to get this 4-year history with all the family isn't working.  I don't know.  I love TOG but maybe it just isn't for us.  I am sure I will know better after the next 9 weeks.  I planned a little more this time than Unit 1.

 

Here's some ideas:

 

Turn TOG into a family project. Use the LG or UG books for everyone and make that the core of your TOG readings this year. Go through the weekly timeline and famous people lists. Chose a couple each week you really want the children to know and build a memory list over the unit. Also choose a couple dialectic discussion questions to discuss at dinner. I was amazed how much my 3rd grader was able to contribute just from reading Story of the World!

 

Assign the dialectic literature assignments to your daughter and have her do the worksheets. Or use the dialectic literature as read-alouds and discuss the worksheets later. I found the children need to know the terminology learned in dialectic to do well in rhetoric. You have 3-4 years to get there, so don't stress about it. If she's interested, you can have her read one or two of the dialectic history books and write the answer to 1 accountability question this unit. Next unit, add 1 question. Eventually she'll be answering all the questions. ;)

 

Your son will mature. For now, just do what's right for him and ignore the rest. I had one with tracking issues who struggled with the appropriate level of TOG when we started. So I bumped the child down.... way down. It built confidence and reading skill. By the end of the year, the child was reading at grade level. Children grow and mature. These irresponsible, lovable boys do turn into responsible, caring men. :001_smile:

 

HTH :001_cool:

 

[JadeOrchidSong]

Coffeegal,

What you said is exactly what I need to hear, too.

I love the idea of assigning just 1 or 2 accountability questions in the beginning to help dc get used to it and build confidence.

OP, I will also NOT require dc to do the literature worksheet every single week. I will skip some and do some. Print them all but be ready to drop some.

[Saddlemomma]

I want my children to learn history!  I want them to be able to know dates and places very well (I wish TOG had an added memory section...).  I want them to actually retain what they are learning.  I guess I could just focus on some fun facts and have them listen to SOTW and leave it at that.

 

My older dd is not fond of the idea of independent history.  She use to like listening to SOTW as a family, listening to MOH read to her, and doing MFW together.  Should I encourage the independence?  Or should I keep her with when I read to the younger crew?  Maybe she could help with that reading?  I understand that TOG wants the older kids to be independent and I do see that as useful for the future.  I just don't want to make her hate history right now.  AND, I do not see my 4th grader ever being able to keep up with the pace of TOG in UG and D years (when he is in 6th and older).  Hand him a book and read it independently?  I can't fathom.  Hopefully by then he will have changed a lot in his reading level, etc.  I still have time to get him ready for that.  I just don't know how hard to push my kids.  Ya know?

 

Thanks for the advice.  I will try TOG for 9 weeks and then reassess.  I do own Unit 3 but haven't planned yet, so I could switch if I needed to.  Sometimes I think a box curriculum for each student at their grade level would be the way to go.  Maybe trying to get this 4-year history with all the family isn't working.  I don't know.  I love TOG but maybe it just isn't for us.  I am sure I will know better after the next 9 weeks.  I planned a little more this time than Unit 1.

 

Last year was our first year of TOG (Y2, UG-5th grade). We loved it and did their history, literature, geography, and worldview (church history).  My DD loves history, but she likes doing it with me as well.  This is what we did for history:

• We read the core history texts together on the couch and discussed (you could follow the alternate SOTW readings scheduled in TOG if older DD prefers that.)
• DD read the in-depth readings by herself and did either a narration or outline
• I created a StudyStack flashcard database for DD to review each day prior to each class (10 mins).  This flashcard database grew throughout the year as we progressed.  http://www.studystack.com   You could just use the timeline entries in TOG for your flashcard database if you want the kids to remember dates.  I used the flashcards as the basis for our quizzes and tests.

I took the shortcut for geography and just let DD copy the teacher's map onto her own cardstock printed outline.  By just doing this, DD learned more geography this last year than the 4 years prior.  Because we did Y2, the maps covered Europe over and over again which built a good base for DD.  When I gave her a blank map of Europe as a test, she was able to name 23 features on the map (countries, mountains, rivers, seas, etc.)  She was only required to list the 9 major areas we were currently studying, but she asked if she could do more for extra credit!  She got a lot of extra credit.  This subject was scheduled 2X a week, and often only took 1 day.

 

For church history, we just read the chapters out of Trial and Triumph and discussed them.  DD now has a firm understanding of how the church came to be, what the Reformation was all about, and the atrocities that were committed by both sides.  It was a very sobering class for her, but she loved reading about all the various people involved.  This class was only scheduled 2X a week and DD had no trouble finishing everything.  Again, often she finished it in one day.

 

Literature involved just reading the chapters of the suggested book and filling out a literature analysis worksheet.  DD did lit 2X a week.

 

So, in reality, doing these four classes didn't involve a ton of time. We had a wonderful year, and DD wants to continue TOG through high school.

 

For this upcoming fall, DD will enter the Dialectic stage.  I'm planning to dive right into the Dialectic work, but the beauty of TOG is that I can easily scale back into UG if I have to.  We are looking forward to the Socratic discussions, because we're used to discussing topics at length anyway.  DD would prefer discussion over written work anytime. I do plan to continue with the flashcard database and will utilize the timeline entries for this. 

 

Remember, you can do as much or as little as you want.  Start out just doing the core history readings.  If your eldest really likes the history topic, assign some of the in-depth reading.  You don't have to do it all.  We skipped most of the arts/crafts (many of the recommended books were too expensive) and did our own thing. 

[JadeOrchidSong]

Saddlemama, we are going to do TOG in a couple weeks. Do you mind sharing the flash card database you made? I don't know how to do it. Thanks!

[PeterPan]

LAmom, what you described is Veritas Press.  (focus on memory work, stories, a framework that you can fill in with whatever books you have)  With the ages you have, VP would work well.  You just need a framework.  Your kids aren't target-age for MOH3.

[Saddlemomma]

Saddlemama, we are going to do TOG in a couple weeks. Do you mind sharing the flash card database you made? I don't know how to do it. Thanks!

 

Unfortunately I can't. I set up the stack as unfinished so I could add to it each week.  Now I can't seem to publish it as a public stack.  I just tried and it wouldn't let me.

 

It would be simple for you to get onto http://www.studystack.com  and set up a free account.  Then you could start a TOG Y2 stack and just input the timeline info for each week as part of your planning (this is what I did, although I didn't use the timeline info.  I did famous figures and events.) It really only takes a few minutes each week.

 

For instance, the first week of unit 1 of TOG Y2 has 13 short entries. The first 10 are a review from TOG Y1.  You wouldn't need to enter those if you didn't want to.  That leaves just three to enter into your StudyStack for the first week.  Week 2 has 9 entries.  Just keep building your stack each week. Then your dc could review it before each class.

 

[JadeOrchidSong]

Great! Thanks for showing how you do it. I will try it.

[LAmom]

LAmom, what you described is Veritas Press. (focus on memory work, stories, a framework that you can fill in with whatever books you have) With the ages you have, VP would work well. You just need a framework. Your kids aren't target-age for MOH3.

I've looked at Veritas so many times. I just can't figure it out. What a terrible website. I love the looks of things from their catalog--but still confusing. Also, I would separate my daughter out of the history cycle in 7th anyways, right? The online wouldn't work because my internet failed their test. Slowest internet ever here in the rural town of Los Angeles. Lol. I also have read it is a Western focus and not too much else about the world. Maybe I should just look again...

[PeterPan]

I've looked at Veritas so many times. I just can't figure it out. What a terrible website. I love the looks of things from their catalog--but still confusing. Also, I would separate my daughter out of the history cycle in 7th anyways, right? The online wouldn't work because my internet failed their test. Slowest internet ever here in the rural town of Los Angeles. Lol. I also have read it is a Western focus and not too much else about the world. Maybe I should just look again...

Oh I hear you!  And when I first looked at it, I borrowed someone's old edition stuff, not realizing it had been updated significantly.  For years I read reviews saying this and that that weren't accurate if you had the new editions.  

 

Some other people here have more thorough explanations, but think TOG a lot more streamlined.  No, you wouldn't *have* to stop using it when she hits 7th.  Omnibus is a stretch for most kids in 7th anyway.  What is nice for your situation is all your kids could be exactly on-level with the same set of materials for several years.  You could do the two years of american for your oldest's 5th and 6th, then do OTAE and NTGR combined for her 7th, MARR for her 8th.  It would totally work.  And it has the focus on memory work you want.

 

The online self-paced classes as great, but I was suggesting the actual curriculum to you.  You would get the cards plus the enhanced cd that includes the tm, memory songs, etc.  They show you the backs of some of the cards on the website (or try CBD or RR) so you can see.  It basically becomes what you want.  Memory work, everybody on the same basic topic, then everyone rabbit trailing with books on their level for their particular interests.  And you could probably stay in it for 4 years without a problem.

 

Btw, for the online self-paced classes and the internet connection, it might also be the age of your computer.  Obviously I don't know what you have, but when we first started it kept logging up and the problem was our computer.  We got a new computer and the problem went away.  I keep my internet on one of the lowest internet speeds you can get, and I have no problem with ANYTHING.  It's more likely the computer itself.  Just a thought.

[AdventuresinHomeschooling]

Veritas Press' website is awful.  For a while, I thought it was only the cards and a cd...no teacher's manual.  I do wonder how many people do not use Veritas because of their 5 year timeline though.  MFW does that too.  Then CC is only three years.  Can't all these curriculum companies just come up with one set timeframe for a world history rotation??

[PeterPan]

Veritas Press' website is awful.  For a while, I thought it was only the cards and a cd...no teacher's manual.  I do wonder how many people do not use Veritas because of their 5 year timeline though.  MFW does that too.  Then CC is only three years.  Can't all these curriculum companies just come up with one set timeframe for a world history rotation??

We have schedules up on the VP_Elementary yahoo group where people combine OTAE and NTGR into one year.  It's very common to do with older kids.  That would get you to four years.  You could combine the two american history years onto one, and that would get you to 3.  It's pretty flexible.