Gender swapping heroes in literature

[Corraleno]

I think that saying "there are plenty of books with strong female characters" misses the point that in most cases their "strength" is expressed in a domestic setting: taking care of their family under difficult circumstances, overcoming poverty, dealing with loss/death/difficult relationships, etc. There are comparatively few books where a female protagonist is going on epic quests, leading battles, having great adventures, saving her people, etc. — when girls appear in stories like that, they are almost always the friend or love interest of the main male character. Basically, strong female characters tend to be strong because of what they endured, versus what they went out and accomplished on their own. The message to boys is that its heroic to do great things; the message to girls is that it's heroic to survive what happens to you. 

 

I don't think it's even remotely strange that a 5 year old wanted to imagine herself as the hero of an epic quest like The Hobbit, and not just as a supporting character. Suggesting that the parent just skip that book and find something else, means finding another epic adventure story on par with the Hobbit where the protagonist is female — Little House is not a substitute.

 

[Catwoman]

I liked it for you.

Annnnnnd.....your welcome. :P

Thank you! :)

[Χά�ων]

I wanted to like this post, but somehow I am already out of likes for the day. :glare:

:toetap05: You will be checking in periodically to ensure that any new likes you receive are immediately rewhored out right? 

[maize]

There is also some element of a chicken-or-egg question here. There is a significant body of science indicating that on average male and female brains are differently organized, leading to some significant differences in the way males and females experience and approach life. The literature to some degree would be expected to reflect this. I personally doubt there are as many girls out there interested in embarking on grand quests and adventures as there are boys, and while cultural norms likely play a role in such preferences underlying biology also plays a role. Of course there are females with inclinations and interests closer to the male average than the female and vice versa, but in my opinion it is naive to assume male and female differences are purely cultural. Certainly such a viewpoint does not match modern scientific findings. Tendencies towards aggression, risk-taking, and thrill-seeking, for example, are more evident in the male than the female population because of biological and not just cultural differences. That male protagonists in literature are more likely to be found exhibiting such behaviors is not surprising.

 

I am among those girls who was always drawn to more adventurous and more typically masculine interests, and I know many of my female friends and acquaintances were rather bemused by many of my choices. Why in the world would I relish something like military survival training?!? It was usually my guy friends who understood :) I was equally bemused by my friends, female or male, who thought putting together just the right outfit was an interesting and exciting undertaking...

[Elfknitter.#]

I think that saying "there are plenty of books with strong female characters" misses the point that in most cases their "strength" is expressed in a domestic setting: taking care of their family under difficult circumstances, overcoming poverty, dealing with loss/death/difficult relationships, etc. There are comparatively few books where a female protagonist is going on epic quests, leading battles, having great adventures, saving her people, etc. — when girls appear in stories like that, they are almost always the friend or love interest of the main male character. Basically, strong female characters tend to be strong because of what they endured, versus what they went out and accomplished on their own. The message to boys is that its heroic to do great things; the message to girls is that it's heroic to survive what happens to you.

 

I don't think it's even remotely strange that a 5 year old wanted to imagine herself as the hero of an epic quest like The Hobbit, and not just as a supporting character. Suggesting that the parent just skip that book and find something else, means finding another epic adventure story on par with the Hobbit where the protagonist is female — Little House is not a substitute.

Quoting because liking was not enough.

[Joanne]

I think that saying "there are plenty of books with strong female characters" misses the point that in most cases their "strength" is expressed in a domestic setting: taking care of their family under difficult circumstances, overcoming poverty, dealing with loss/death/difficult relationships, etc. There are comparatively few books where a female protagonist is going on epic quests, leading battles, having great adventures, saving her people, etc. — when girls appear in stories like that, they are almost always the friend or love interest of the main male character. Basically, strong female characters tend to be strong because of what they endured, versus what they went out and accomplished on their own. The message to boys is that its heroic to do great things; the message to girls is that it's heroic to survive what happens to you. 

 

I don't think it's even remotely strange that a 5 year old wanted to imagine herself as the hero of an epic quest like The Hobbit, and not just as a supporting character. Suggesting that the parent just skip that book and find something else, means finding another epic adventure story on par with the Hobbit where the protagonist is female — Little House is not a substitute.

 

Well done.

 

I did not change the pronouns, I did not have a child who asked. But I went through those years (as a homeschool mom) aware of the patriarchy and bias in classic literature.

 

I don't understand the vehement reaction to honoring a *child initiated" request to change the pronoun.

[Catwoman]

:toetap05: You will be checking in periodically to ensure that any new likes you receive are immediately rewhored out right?

Absolutely! :thumbup:

[Χά�ων]

Absolutely! :thumbup:

Good to hear! And notice how I was able to like your post because I was not so indiscriminate in the ways in which I spread the love. 

[maize]

This is the type of book popular among many of my young female acquaintances: http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B006564VQC/ref=redir_mdp_mobile

 

I don't get it...

[Catwoman]

Good to hear! And notice how I was able to like your post because I was not so indiscriminate in the ways in which I spread the love.

I hope you don't think I'm bitter or resentful, but I'm really hoping you run out of likes today. :D

[Χά�ων]

I hope you don't think I'm bitter or resentful, but I'm really hoping you run out of likes today. :D

Don't worry, I will not. Even liking your post does not affect my likes :thumbup1: . 

[Catwoman]

Don't worry, I will not. Even liking your post does not affect my likes :thumbup1: .

OK, now you're just showing off.

 

Because you can.

 

And my bitterness is growing.............

[Χά�ων]

:grouphug: I do not mean to make you bitter. I liked your post as a peace offering.

OK, now you're just showing off.

Because you can.

And my bitterness is growing.............

 

[Catwoman]

:grouphug: I do not mean to make you bitter. I liked your post as a peace offering.

:001_wub: :001_wub: :001_wub:

[Word Nerd]

I don't understand the vehement reaction to honoring a *child initiated" request to change the pronoun.

 

To whom is this directed?

[Joanne]

To whom is this directed?

 

Anyone with the vehement reaction to a child's request to change the pronoun.

[BrookValley.]

:grouphug: I do not mean to make you bitter. I liked your post as a peace offering.

 

 

:001_wub: :001_wub: :001_wub:

 

Ok, ok, you two. Get a room already! :laugh:

[Word Nerd]

Anyone with the vehement reaction to a child's request to change the pronoun.

 

LOL. Fair enough.

[Danestress]

 

But in another example, he once wrote to a famous composer to ask him to explain the meaning behind a particular composition.  The composer said, "Why don't you ask Professor Smith over at XYZ University because he knows better than I do what I meant."  (I used Smith and XYZ because I don't recall the exact names, but you get the idea.)

  

Was he being sarcastic?  Because that is totally hilarious and your husband should give that to the composer's biographer someday!    I love it:)

[Critterfixer]

Out of morbid curiosity, I pulled my two favorite books on plot building. I looked at the quest plot as described by a male author in 1993. Nice and straight, he used examples of male and female protagonists to illustrate. He did have some higher quality lit for the male plot line-Jason and the Golden Fleece. The female example was The Wizard of Oz. Both good examples of the quest in action.

 

I then took a look at my 2001 book. Female author. This book focused more on archetypes in fiction, and didn't do a very good job compared to other archetype books I use (also by a female author). But the section on plot was interesting, because it detailed a feminine journey (based on the Sumerian myth of Inanna in the Underworld) and a masculine journey (based on the Epic of Gilgamesh).

I thought I'd line them up for analysis:

 

Feminine

1.Act 1: Containment (the woman is trapped in some way-expectations, role in society, etc) Instead of being called to leave, she is generally pushed.

2.Act 2: Transformation (the woman embarks on the quest, often without friends or support. It's what she has to do, not what she wants to do.)

3.Act 3: Emergence (the woman finds the support and affirmation she needs, conquers all, and reflects on what she has accomplished. Should she not get her affirmation, she may pay the price of failure.)

 

Masculine

1. Act 1: Challenge (the man has a good life, or an okay one, but something happens that challenges his way of life, and he answers it. He is called, not pushed. There may be things that push him, or prevent him from returning to his perfect life, but he certainly has a choice.)

2. Act 2: Obstacles (The man finds friends to help him on his journey. He gets advice from mentors. His trials are designed to test him, and to prove his worthiness for the quest.)

3. Act 3: Transformation (Just when the man thinks he's winning, something happens to knock him for a loop. He has to decide whether he will continue with his quest, or if he even can continue as he is. He either wins this internal battle, drawing on what he has learned to help him, or fails. 

 

Out of curiosity, what do you think? Does anyone find the "feminine" journey appealing? I don't. 

It may be far more than a lack of good female protagonists that is lacking in literature for girls. It may be this focus on a plot to reflect the gender specific female struggles that is a turn off. I don't know if a lot of modern girls lit reflects this kind of plotting, but all the strong female characters in the world won't make that journey worth the trip. 

 

Note: the second plot book was written by a woman, and is more recent, 2001. I have abridged the steps, which are acts in three parts.

[Slartibartfast]

I am not bothered by gender changes or people playing in a world they love. People were dressing up and speaking elvish to one another during Tolkien's lifetime. If he wasn't bothered by it why would anyone else? I think Tolkien would have been charmed be a female Bilbo.

IMO the genders in Tolkien's world were influenced by old fashioned views of women in combat. I think part of him was also influenced by the fact that most of his school friend were dead, killed in wartime. I can see how part of him wanted that adventure. I sometimes wonder his how many of his friends have survived him through his work.

Even so, some of his most brave and courageous characters were women, though they were brave in very different way.

I think it is very easy for people to write fanfiction and play in their favorite worlds. Look at how directors treat those same books. I think I complained about Peter Jackson but at least fanfic authors are transparent about changes.

[maize]

Out of morbid curiosity, I pulled my two favorite books on plot building. I looked at the quest plot as described by a male author in 1993. Nice and straight, he used examples of male and female protagonists to illustrate. He did have some higher quality lit for the male plot line-Jason and the Golden Fleece. The female example was The Wizard of Oz. Both good examples of the quest in action.

 

I then took a look at my 2001 book. Female author. This book focused more on archetypes in fiction, and didn't do a very good job compared to other archetype books I use (also by a female author). But the section on plot was interesting, because it detailed a feminine journey (based on the Sumerian myth of Inanna in the Underworld) and a masculine journey (based on the Epic of Gilgamesh).

I thought I'd line them up for analysis:

 

Feminine

1.Act 1: Containment (the woman is trapped in some way-expectations, role in society, etc) Instead of being called to leave, she is generally pushed.

2.Act 2: Transformation (the woman embarks on the quest, often without friends or support. It's what she has to do, not what she wants to do.)

3.Act 3: Emergence (the woman finds the support and affirmation she needs, conquers all, and reflects on what she has accomplished. Should she not get her affirmation, she may pay the price of failure.)

 

Masculine

1. Act 1: Challenge (the man has a good life, or an okay one, but something happens that challenges his way of life, and he answers it. He is called, not pushed. There may be things that push him, or prevent him from returning to his perfect life, but he certainly has a choice.)

2. Act 2: Obstacles (The man finds friends to help him on his journey. He gets advice from mentors. His trials are designed to test him, and to prove his worthiness for the quest.)

3. Act 3: Transformation (Just when the man thinks he's winning, something happens to knock him for a loop. He has to decide whether he will continue with his quest, or if he even can continue as he is. He either wins this internal battle, drawing on what he has learned to help him, or fails. 

 

Out of curiosity, what do you think? Does anyone find the "feminine" journey appealing? I don't. 

It may be far more than a lack of good female protagonists that is lacking in literature for girls. It may be this focus on a plot to reflect the gender specific female struggles that is a turn off. I don't know if a lot of modern girls lit reflects this kind of plotting, but all the strong female characters in the world won't make that journey worth the trip. 

 

Note: the second plot book was written by a woman, and is more recent, 2001. I have abridged the steps, which are acts in three parts.

 

I don't know, those plot lines are very generic and I'm not sure I entirely understand the distinctions. 

 

I'm trying to think how books I am familiar with compare. For a book with a masculine protagonist, I'll take The Hobbit, for a feminine protagonist Dealing with Dragons.

 

The Hobbit does seem to follow the masculine pattern...though while Bilbo has a choice whether or not to go on the quest he is definitely pushed and even tricked into going. He finds friends and mentors, though his companions are hesitant to really accept him. I suppose the transformation episode would ultimately be his decision to take the archenstone (did I remember that name rightly?) to the Elves.

 

In Dealing with Dragons, Cimorene does run away from her parent's plans to marry her to someone she is not interested in. In that aspect it seems to match the feminine pattern above. But to my mind the rest of her quest more closely matches the masculine pattern. She isn't looking for affirmation and support. She finds friends and learns a lot along the way. Faces and overcomes numerous challenges. I don't see a moment of transformation though she does have to take initiative at the end to solve a serious problem.

[maize]

I am not bothered by gender changes or people playing in a world they love. People were dressing up and speaking elvish to one another during Tolkien's lifetime. If he wasn't bothered by it why would anyone else? I think Tolkien would have been charmed be a female Bilbo.

 

IMO the genders in Tolkien's world were influenced by old fashioned views of women in combat. I think part of him was also influenced by the fact that most of his school friend were dead, killed in wartime. I can see how part of him wanted that adventure. I sometimes wonder his many of his friends have survived him through his work.

 

Even so, some of his most brave and courageous characters were women, though they were brave in very different way.

 

I think it is very easy for people to write fanfiction and play in their favorite worlds. Look at how directors treat those same books. I think I complained about Peter Jackson but at least fanfic authors are transparent about changes.

 

He actually has a very strong female warrior character in Eowyn, who accomplishes what no man was able to do in killing the king of the Black Riders. 

[Danestress]

This is such an interesting subject. I just finished a spy novel (something I don't read a lot of, but my book club was reading it). The female undercover agent absolutely became an agent according to these patterns. She definitely was trapped and friendless and had no way out. The male agents? They were Agents because..... they wanted to be. No need for a huge back story! I hadn't really thought about it.

 

And interestingly, I read online about US undercover agents, and 40% of them are female. I had no idea. Of course,maybe the CiA planted that false information to throw people off the track;)

 

This has been such a great discussion, and I enjoy reading everyone's perspective.

[Slartibartfast]

But Eowyn wasn't scared of the riders. She was scared of a cage, which in itself is a very interesting perspective when Tolkien was writing I would quote Eowyn here but I am on my phone and not at home. :lol:

[maize]

But Eowyn wasn't scared of the riders. She was scared of a cage, which in itself is a very interesting perspective when Tolkien was writing I would quote Eowyn here but I am on my phone and not at home. :lol:

 

She wanted to fight for honor and glory. I think the cage she saw was not only her own but the king's; she felt entrapped by a web of depression and despair and saw battle and glorious death as her escape. Not a typical female point of view! In the end she embraces life alongside Faramir and together they turn their backs on battle and death and put their efforts into building and nurturing. Faramir and Eowyn have always been my favorite characters.

[maize]

This is such an interesting subject. I just finished a spy novel (something I don't read a lot of, but my book club was reading it). The female undercover agent absolutely became an agent according to these patterns. She definitely was trapped and friendless and had no way out. The male agents? They were Agents because..... they wanted to be. No need for a huge back story! I hadn't really thought about it.

 

And interestingly, I read online about US undercover agents, and 40% of them are female. I had no idea. Of course,maybe the CiA planted that false information to throw people off the track;)

 

This has been such a great discussion, and I enjoy reading everyone's perspective.

 

I'm trying to think of male and female characters. Harry Potter was definitely trapped and had to escape to Hogwards, Hermione wasn't. In The Horse and His Boy Aravis and Shasta are both pushed to begin their quests by the need to escape--Aravis from the prospect of an unwanted marriage, Shasta from slavery. In Lloyd Alexander's Prydain books I wouldn't say either Taran or Eilonwy is trapped or pushed. Can people come up with other examples? I find the discussion interesting.

[Slartibartfast]

She wanted to fight for honor and glory. I think the cage she saw was not only her own but the king's; she felt entrapped by a web of depression and despair and saw battle and glorious death as her escape. Not a typical female point of view! In the end she embraces life alongside Faramir and together they turn their backs on battle and death and put their efforts into building and nurturing. Faramir and Eowyn have always been my favorite characters.

Those passages are some of the most romantic in Literature.

 

I do think Tolkien also has some of the scariest women bad guys. They are bad because they are bad and NOT because their stepchildren annoyed them.

[Mrs Mungo]

She wanted to fight for honor and glory. I think the cage she saw was not only her own but the king's; she felt entrapped by a web of depression and despair and saw battle and glorious death as her escape. Not a typical female point of view! In the end she embraces life alongside Faramir and together they turn their backs on battle and death and put their efforts into building and nurturing. Faramir and Eowyn have always been my favorite characters.

I don't think anyone who has deeply read (obviously lots of people aren't interested in deep reading) disagrees with you. But, you are ignoring the fact that Eowyn is definitely seen as an anomaly. You have to look at how *others* see her, not just how she sees herself. I am at a doctor's appointment or I would quote some of those passages for you. She is portrayed even weaker in the movies (IMO) than she seems in the book. That is interesting since the implied theory in many posts of the thread is that we are dealing with this issue better today than in the past.

[maize]

I don't think anyone who has deeply read (obviously lots of people aren't interested in deep reading) disagrees with you. But, you are ignoring the fact that Eowyn is definitely seen as an anomaly. You have to look at how *others* see her, not just how she sees herself. I am at a doctor's appointment or I would quote some of those passages for you. She is portrayed even weaker in the movies (IMO) than she seems in the book. That is interesting since the implied theory in many posts of the thread is that we are dealing with this issue better today than in the past.

And yet among her own people she is seen as both strong and a leader. When the king and his warriors ride off to the battle of Helms Deep, she is chosen to lead the people left behind rather than any of the king's men because the people want her for their leader.

[albeto.]

There is also some element of a chicken-or-egg question here. There is a significant body of science indicating that on average male and female brains are differently organized, leading to some significant differences in the way males and females experience and approach life. The literature to some degree would be expected to reflect this. I personally doubt there are as many girls out there interested in embarking on grand quests and adventures as there are boys, and while cultural norms likely play a role in such preferences underlying biology also plays a role. Of course there are females with inclinations and interests closer to the male average than the female and vice versa, but in my opinion it is naive to assume male and female differences are purely cultural. Certainly such a viewpoint does not match modern scientific findings. Tendencies towards aggression, risk-taking, and thrill-seeking, for example, are more evident in the male than the female population because of biological and not just cultural differences. That male protagonists in literature are more likely to be found exhibiting such behaviors is not surprising.

 

The fact there is a difference in sensory perception and experience between male and female is an interesting idea as far as correlating it to the kinds of adventures the author may write about, but this discussion is about the number of female literary heroines and tangentially, the effect that has on society.  I suspect that scientific findings about morphological difference in the brain is completely unrelated to the ratio of male to female lead characters in children's literature.

 

I am among those girls who was always drawn to more adventurous and more typically masculine interests, and I know many of my female friends and acquaintances were rather bemused by many of my choices. Why in the world would I relish something like military survival training?!? It was usually my guy friends who understood :) I was equally bemused by my friends, female or male, who thought putting together just the right outfit was an interesting and exciting undertaking...

 

The bold is a good argument for taking notice of the facts (the ratio between male and female lead characters in children's literature) and the effects this phenomena has on society. The effects may be subtle but significant nevertheless. No girl should grow up thinking it's odd or unusual or somehow not intrinsically girl-like to be drawn to the kinds of experiences conventional society has limited for the boys. Likewise, no boy should grow up thinking it's odd or unusual or somehow not intrinsically boy-like to be drawn to the kinds of experiences conventional society has limited for the girls. When developing a sense of self in relation to family, community, and greater world, we should utilize the information we have to reduce potential stress and suffering and increase positive experiences that benefit individuals as well as entire societies. I mean, why not? Why not use information as a tool rather than working to dismiss it, belittle it, or as I would argue has been illustrated above, manipulate it to suggest something it doesn't for the sake of rationalizing and preserving a sincerely held belief? 

[Lucy the Valiant]

Are there additional studies that support this "more books have boy characters than girls"?

 

Or are we basing all of this on one isolated study? (I did a brief Google search and found several articles, but they are all referencing the exact same study.)

 

 

[Critterfixer]

Note: For the plot line, only the protagonist need apply. Supporting characters may have their own journeys, but in a quest plot, they exist only to help or hinder the hero on his quest. Regardless of whether Eilonwy or Hermione are strong female characters, they are there to support the main guy. It is not their story. Same thing with Aravis. Not her story.

Same with Eowyn. Not her story. 

 

Even Harry is issued an invitation. He isn't in a good place to begin with, and it's a no-brainer, but he gets a letter put in his hand, and he wants to go. Nobody is really pushing him. Although the whole series with Harry isn't exactly a quest is it? It's a Discovery plot. Still a very masculine journey. Dear Hermione and Ron, however likable they may be, exist solely to help Harry on his way.

 

I don't quite know how the male/female journey bit works with other plot lines. The only one written up was clearly a quest plot. 

[Critterfixer]

I would expect, that the more character plays into the plot-let's take a Discovery plot, as an example, the less easy it becomes to change the gender of the main character and expect that the story will unfold in the same way.

It is actually a fun writing exercise. Take a story that you have written and change the sex of the main character and see how the story changes. It might not alter that much, depending on the plot. Sometimes it goes in a whole different direction.

[Critterfixer]

I'm wondering if the real reason that the author in the article found reading Bilbo as a female character was so refreshing had to do with that story being a straightforward quest plot. Unlike a feminine journey, Bilbo gets called, has to make a choice to go on his quest, and the first task he faces he has to prove he can handle himself. He becomes more important, gets more respect, because he is passing various tests to prove he's got the stuff to do this. 

 

I'm wondering, idly, if part of the enjoyment of reading Bilbo as a female lead had to do with the simpler, more "masculine" quest plot.

[Rosie_0801]

 

Out of curiosity, what do you think? Does anyone find the "feminine" journey appealing? I don't. 

It may be far more than a lack of good female protagonists that is lacking in literature for girls. It may be this focus on a plot to reflect the gender specific female struggles that is a turn off. I don't know if a lot of modern girls lit reflects this kind of plotting, but all the strong female characters in the world won't make that journey worth the trip. 

 

 

Yeah, I do. Misery loves company perhaps.

 

On the other hand, I hate dystopian fiction because it is too much like watching the news knowing I can't stop the wars, etc.

[Slartibartfast]

I don't think anyone who has deeply read (obviously lots of people aren't interested in deep reading) disagrees with you. But, you are ignoring the fact that Eowyn is definitely seen as an anomaly. You have to look at how *others* see her, not just how she sees herself. I am at a doctor's appointment or I would quote some of those passages for you. She is portrayed even weaker in the movies (IMO) than she seems in the book. That is interesting since the implied theory in many posts of the thread is that we are dealing with this issue better today than in the past.

 

Yes, when the Witch King is standing in front of her she looks like she is wetting her pants. In the book she said ""RRRAAWWWRRRGGG!!!" (paraphrasing)

[Critterfixer]

Rosie< Are you finding that plot line in girl's fiction? Or more in adult/YA fiction? 

I've been far too busy working the shelves looking for good boy fiction, since I don't have daughters.

 

And I'm in full agreement on the dystopian fiction. 

[Mrs Mungo]

Note: For the plot line, only the protagonist need apply. Supporting characters may have their own journeys, but in a quest plot, they exist only to help or hinder the hero on his quest. Regardless of whether Eilonwy or Hermione are strong female characters, they are there to support the main guy. It is not their story. Same thing with Aravis. Not her story.

Same with Eowyn. Not her story.

 

Even Harry is issued an invitation. He isn't in a good place to begin with, and it's a no-brainer, but he gets a letter put in his hand, and he wants to go. Nobody is really pushing him. Although the whole series with Harry isn't exactly a quest is it? It's a Discovery plot. Still a very masculine journey. Dear Hermione and Ron, however likable they may be, exist solely to help Harry on his way.

 

I don't quite know how the male/female journey bit works with other plot lines. The only one written up was clearly a quest plot.

The only other female adventure story with a central female character suggested so far in the thread has been "Julie and the Wolves." Her story starts with her being forced to leave her village for the wilds due to an abusive situation/attempted rape. The first Pern book (since they have also been mentioned) contains a strong female protagonist, but her situation is extremely abusive in the beginning. Years and years of those books pass before you see a female lead without an abusive background. "Lythande" by MZB has one, but she is hiding the truth of her sex.

[Critterfixer]

So that forced "feminine" journey thing.

 

The only book that has a female protagonist that I can think of with a fairly straightforward quest plot is The Wizard of Oz. And I say that more because it is mentioned as a good example of the quest plot in my 1993 book. To me, Dorothy doesn't change enough to make it a completely satisfactory quest plot. There is a book later in the series that is a lot more quest like, and there is a pretty profound change at the end of it- the boy turns into a girl. So I don't think we could say that the protagonist is a girl for the duration of that one, could we? What is that book called? It escapes me at the moment.

 

 

[Critterfixer]

To be fair, can I just say that there seem to be quite a few books with a male protagonist with obvious abuse happening to him at the beginning of the book.

Makes me wonder if that is supposed to make it appeal to girls. If so, I'd find that appalling.

[Mrs Mungo]

Can anyone think of any novels (particularly adventure novels) in which a *central* female character (the protagonist) follows a pattern more like what is described above as a "male" pattern?

 

The Hero and the Crown comes sort of close-ish, but her problems are mostly solved with magic, not strictly by her personal growth and triumph over adversity.

[Critterfixer]

Oddly enough, Hero and the Crown was one of my favorite books that didn't have a male lead. Just sayin.

 

I'd sure love to get rid of calling that a masculine journey--I'd love to call it a quest plot journey. Quite obviously, other plot lines are going to have their own gender specific things (Coming of Age, Romance, Discovery). But this book I have distinctly marks them as male and female journeys. 

 

Sounds like the authors need to get cracking on some seriously good quest plots without saddling these female protagonists with a lot of baggage.

[Mrs Mungo]

To be fair, can I just say that there seem to be quite a few books with a male protagonist with obvious abuse happening to him at the beginning of the book.

 

Sure, but I can think of plenty (especially adventure books) without abuse. How to Train Your Dragon, Artemis Fowl, Percy Jackson, Harry Potter is neglected but nobody is beating him and/or trying to rape him, The Hobbit, LOTR, Stardust, the Earthsea books, the Riddlemaster of Hed books (note that some of these have female authors), I could go on and on. But, I am going to have to browse my bookshelf when I get home to think of any....wait....A Wrinkle in Time might sort of fit, she receives something more like an outside pressure, her background is pretty okay.

[Critterfixer]

Dudley and his gang are beating him. But it is true that those are his peers and not adults.

[Critterfixer]

Yep. A Wrinkle in Time, another favorite.

[Slartibartfast]

Sure, but I can think of plenty (especially adventure books) without abuse. How to Train Your Dragon, Artemis Fowl, Percy Jackson, Harry Potter is neglected but nobody is beating him and/or trying to rape him, The Hobbit, LOTR, Stardust, the Earthsea books, the Riddlemaster of Hed books (note that some of these have female authors), I could go on and on. But, I am going to have to browse my bookshelf when I get home to think of any....wait....A Wrinkle in Time might sort of fit, she receives something more like an outside pressure, her background is pretty okay.

 

Mortal Instruments doesn't start out with abuse, I can't recall anyone trying to rape her. It has been awhile since I have read those.

 

Infernal Devices by the same author does have some of that.

[Critterfixer]

How to Train Your Dragon is designed to appeal to boys. I didn't find that book to be a good enough story to engage, but the humor in it has a decidedly little boy feel. :tongue_smilie:

[Critterfixer]

I just wonder if the books that have an abused hero at the beginning of a story are supposed to catch a little girl's interest.

If so, that's really not a good thing.

[Danestress]

To be fair, can I just say that there seem to be quite a few books with a male protagonist with obvious abuse happening to him at the beginning of the book.

Makes me wonder if that is supposed to make it appeal to girls. If so, I'd find that appalling.

I am not sure which books you are referring to, or why abuse would appeal to girls. It seems just as likely to resonate with boy readers, but without specific examples, I can't really say. I could imagine abuse as being something that is part of a male character development from feeling powerless to finding courage and power, but that probably would appeal to either gender.