umsami Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 I just saw this today, and I'm really surprised it did not get more press. I haven't heard of any self-immolation cases here in the U.S. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/15/rev-charles-moore-self-immolation_n_5584506.html?ncid=fcbklnkushpmg00000051 Was this reported where you were? ""I will soon be 80 years old, and my heart is broken over this. America, and Grand Saline... have never really repented for the atrocities of slavery and its aftermath. What my hometown needs to do is open its heart and its doors to black people as a sign of the rejection of past sins."" ""This decision to sacrifice myself was not impulsive: I have struggled all my life (especially the last several years) with what it means to take Dietrich Bonhoeffer's insistence that Christ calls a person to come and die seriously. He was not advocating self-immolation, but others have found this to be the necessary deed, as I have myself for some time now: it has been a long Gethsemane, and excruciating to keep my plans from my wife and other members of our family."" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppy Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 Rest in peace old man. I don't really think this is news. It's sad and shocking. It's an act of terrorism: using shock and trauma to bring a political message forward . It is noble in its way. But really it's just a suicide. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrbmom77 Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 I'm in Texas and never saw or heard anything on it. How awful. I don't find this act in any way compatible with the Christian faith. Martyrdom and self-sacrifice, yes. Suicide, absolutely not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 I'm in Texas and never saw or heard anything on it. How awful. I don't find this act in any way compatible with the Christian faith. Martyrdom and self-sacrifice, yes. Suicide, absolutely not. This is my feeling as well. It is in no way similar to Jesus in the Garden, deciding to go forward with God's Will. By the tenants of the faith, Jesus was dying to save all mankind, but a pastor cannot do this; he cannot atone for anyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marbel Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 This is my feeling as well. It is in no way similar to Jesus in the Garden, deciding to go forward with God's Will. By the tenants of the faith, Jesus was dying to save all mankind, but a pastor cannot do this; he cannot atone for anyone. Yes, this is what I was thinking too. I feel so sad for his family. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shinyhappypeople Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 My heart goes out to his family. I know their pain is enormous. May he finally be at rest, and may his friends and loved ones find a place of healing and peace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happi duck Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 It's very sad that he felt he had to go to such lengths to draw attention to his causes. Obviously his actions should not be glorified but our country does give a lot of attention to mass murderers and their twisted ideas. It is strange that someone who kills only themselves for a "cause" gets less attention than say the Santa Barbara shooter. Again, I'm not saying that any of this should be glorified. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
umsami Posted July 15, 2014 Author Share Posted July 15, 2014 It's very sad that he felt he had to go to such lengths to draw attention to his causes. Obviously his actions should not be glorified but our country does give a lot of attention to mass murderers and their twisted ideas. It is strange that someone who kills only themselves for a "cause" gets less attention than say the Santa Barbara shooter. Again, I'm not saying that any of this should be glorified. I guess that's what I'm getting with. I've seen numerous random articles about people who kill themselves or are killed or what not (most recently I've seen articles on a Google executive who was killed)…. so why didn't his act, which is extremely unusual in our culture, get any attention? Is it the causes he was highlighting? It's not like he supported mass murder or racism or something else…quite the opposite. That's what makes me wonder. I guess in the 24-hour news society we live in, why didn't this get any attention? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenmom5 Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 I ""This decision to sacrifice myself was not impulsive: I have struggled all my life (especially the last several years) with what it means to take Dietrich Bonhoeffer's insistence that Christ calls a person to come and die seriously. He was not advocating self-immolation, but others have found this to be the necessary deed, as I have myself for some time now: it has been a long Gethsemane, and excruciating to keep my plans from my wife and other members of our family."" I think it is a much bigger deal to LIVE Christ's commandments. I'm completely against self-immolation, for whatever reason. (including the guy who ran into the burning man structure this past weekend as a means of suicide.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppy Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 The cynical part of me does think that if his message was easier to digest it'd be bigger news. And if it was anti-Obama, it'd certainly be bigger news. I think it is a much bigger deal to LIVE Christ's commandments. I'm completely against self-immolation, for whatever reason. (including the guy who ran into the burning man structure this past weekend as a means of suicide.) In the writings posted, he quoted Bonhoeffer, a pastor famous for performing a valiant self-sacrifice in speaking up against the Nazi genocide (which led to his own execution). History has proven that martyr right. I am sad for this man's family. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 I guess that's what I'm getting with. I've seen numerous random articles about people who kill themselves or are killed or what not (most recently I've seen articles on a Google executive who was killed)…. so why didn't his act, which is extremely unusual in our culture, get any attention? Is it the causes he was highlighting? It's not like he supported mass murder or racism or something else…quite the opposite. That's what makes me wonder. I guess in the 24-hour news society we live in, why didn't this get any attention? Because his act was a colossal waste. It didn't help anyone - his family, himself, his god or his cause. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
umsami Posted July 15, 2014 Author Share Posted July 15, 2014 Because his act was a colossal waste. It didn't help anyone - his family, himself, his god or his cause. That could be said of so many suicides… but they still make the news. This was, at least, unusual for a person of his age, ethnicity, nationality, and faith. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurie4b Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 No, I hadn't read it before. His relative who expressed the wish that he had gotten help from his community to deal with his guilt is probably correctly alluding to some kind of mental health problem. The thinking sounds grandiose. The religiosity gets woven into the disturbed thought patterns; it doesn't inform them. I know of nothing in the Christian tradition that promotes suicide. His citing Jesus and Bonhoeffer was rather bizarre--again, disturbed thought patterns. Being willing to give your life and be killed is different than taking your life. Jesus died at the hands of the authorities as did Bonhoeffer. That is different than suicide and certainly different than attempting to use suicide as a means of self-expression. Local suicides do not usually make the national news when the figure isn't nationally known, and they shouldn't imo. Media outlets can't help it when a celebrity commits suicide--people want to know how they died and if the family allows the info to be released, it's relevant. But local suicides? No. This was a suicide that sounds like it was a tragedy of mental illness like most suicides. I don't think this is any suppression of his message. His message would be one that is very in line with the kind of message the media does embrace. It is a private tragedy and I feel for his loved ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppy Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 I agree, it's pretty clear there are mental health issues at play. Which is not shocking for a man pushing 80. It doesn't negate his lifetime of work, but it is a sad coda. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 That could be said of so many suicides… but they still make the news. This was, at least, unusual for a person of his age, ethnicity, nationality, and faith. Uh, no most suicides do not make the news. Not unless it is a celebrity or possibly a child as a result of bullying or something like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenmom5 Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 In the writings posted, he quoted Bonhoeffer, a pastor famous for performing a valiant self-sacrifice in speaking up against the Nazi genocide (which led to his own execution). History has proven that martyr right. I am sad for this man's family. yet that wasn't what he was planning on doing. bonhoeffer stood up for his beliefs - and was killed for it. he did NOT 'kill himself'. this man made a plan for a very showy killing of himself, probably with many bystanders. big difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shinyhappypeople Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 I'm glad it's not all over the media. I could see it providing a rationale for self-destructive behavior in people with major depression or other mental illness. I am so sad for his family, his friends, and for HIM. I hope the burden of his guilt is finally lifted and he is resting with his Father in Heaven. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
umsami Posted July 16, 2014 Author Share Posted July 16, 2014 Never posted this in an attempt to say that there was a Christian tradition of suicide or anything of the sort. I just found it surprising. I've heard of Buddhist monks self-immolating to protest the occupation of Tibet or other things. There was the self-immolation incident in Tunisia which began the Arab spring. Women in some countries often commit suicide by self-immolation because they have no other options. It is not the norm in America for any faith, any person. . I know of nothing in the Christian tradition that promotes suicide. There is nothing in any faith which promotes suicide. And the whole Christian viewpoint on suicide was not cemented until St. Augustine…so hundreds of years after Christ. There were the Donatists, who believed in suicide/martyrdom. Also, there appears to be at least some cases of women (as best I can tell) choosing suicide over being raped. "In the fourth century Bishop Augustine discussed suicide at length. Recognizing that certain Christian women had committed suicide rather than permit their bodies to be ravaged, Augustine granted that they may have done what was right in the sight of God, but in his view the women should not have assumed that rape would necessarily have deprived them of their purity. Purity is a state of mind, he affirmed, so bodily violence cannot damage it. Job kept his moral integrity amid terrible suffering and did not take his life, Augustine noted. He found it significant that at no point does the Bible make it lawful to take one’s life. The command "Thou shalt not kill" implies, he argued, that one’s own life as well as the lives of others should be preserved. Samson’s suicide was a rare exception to this rule, for he received special divine permission. Concluded Augustine: "He who knows it is unlawful to kill himself may nevertheless do so if he is ordered by God" (City of God, Book I, Sections 18-26)." It was with St. Augustine, that the views on suicide changed in Christianity…or were cemented. Just as an FYI, nor is there anything in Muslim tradition which supports it, but Americans rarely give Muslims the assumption of mental illness or other issues. It is always assumed to be condoned by faith or part of one's faith or some sort of religious act. Muslims are not allowed to be mentally ill should they kill themselves or kill others….yet people of other faiths are allowed to be mentally ill. Suicide is clearly forbidden in the Qur'an, without exception. No footnotes. The whole concept of suicide bombings is a 20th century one. The first suicide bombers are usually linked to either Kamikaze pilots in WWII or the Tamil tigers (Hindu) of Sri Lanka in the 70s. First use of suicide in Islam was the 1982 Beirut incident. So, 1300+ years of staunch forbidding of suicide. For more on suicide and different faiths, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_on_suicide#cite_note-Christian_Perspectives_on_Suicide-10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurie4b Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 I didn't say that you did say that there was a tradition of suicide in Christianity, though then you provided one, so I'm not sure what you're intending to say. I wasn't making it about religion, but about mental health, just remarking that the man's views were not consistent with the tradition he espoused. He attempted to connect them. That's why I also remarked that the religiosity gets woven into the disturbed thought patterns; it doesn't inform them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 OK. . . so it's surprising that it happened. It isn't surprising that it isn't everywhere in the media. Do you want it to get press? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 If he had done it in a way that murdered innocent people in that parking lot then it would have gotten national news. I'm glad that he didn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrincessMommy Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 I read about it on GetReligion a day or so ago. I'm sad for this man's family. I don't think his self-immolation will make the impact he was hoping for. Very tragic and such a waste. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MercyA Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 Something was definitely not right with that man. What a waste. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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