Confusing statistics on college remedial courses

[creekland]

 but you all can rest assured that when I am the Supreme Overlord of the Universe, I will fix it.

 

Now that would be a title and position that I would relish!  Or would support the candidacy of many on this board if it came to a vote.

[kiana]

Now that would be a title and position that I would relish!  Or would support the candidacy of many on this board if it came to a vote.

 

Don't worry, creekland. There's a chair with your name on it on the Supreme Overlord's Educational Advisory Council.

[Teachin'Mine]

I have no idea what state you're in, but the administrators should be ashamed.  It's one thing to provide as much support as possible to help students needing remediation to reach the level required for college level classes, but it's another to insist that professors pass them all through regardless of their efforts and actual graded work in the classes.  Hopefully the situation in your area is not widespread. 

 

As for critical thinking, I know that many high schools and colleges are recognizing that this is a problem and are trying to improve student outcome in this area, but it can be lacking even after a BA.   IMO one of the things they could do is to revamp study guides given before tests which basically have all the info in them.  The student just needs to memorize a bit and spit it back on test day.  I honestly can't remember ever getting a study guide of that type.  Study guides were rare, and when we did get them just general areas of knowledge were listed and sometimes things you absolutely had to memorize in entirety.   What specifically would be asked was never a part of test prep.  Even if we were just reading the text and memorizing what we thought might be important it certainly required more thought than memorizing a one or two page study guide.   There were also essays with open ended questions which required thought beyond memorization.  But with this type of learning and testing, students earned the full range of grades, not just As and Bs as seems the requirement today.  I recently read a stat on the percentage of students who get all As in high school and it was staggering.  Remember when it was only a handful?

 

Just thought of a way to help bring back normal grading.  As parents say it's important for their self esteem not to give them lower grades, maybe this should be applied to other areas as well.  Think about the struggling musicians and athletes.  No longer should there be tryouts for the school teams as this leaves students out and can hurt their self esteem.  Same thing with the high school marching band.  And if some students don't want to attend practices or work on their music at home, no problem.  They can just do their own thing on game day.  Should make for some entertaining collisions on the field at halftime.  Then again there shouldn't be too many watching as their team has an all season losing streak against teams which are held to higher standards.  

 

But the above scenario won't happen because parents want good athletes and musicians, and they know that competition can be a motivator.  Why they don't feel the same way about academics is beyond me.

 

 

Oops.  Thought I was posting after Reefgazer.  Education definitely needs an overhaul!  You've got my vote! 

[regentrude]

I can't imagine which colleges those employees who can't read, write and do math, are graduating from,

 

colleges with a high-powered athletic program.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/07/us/ncaa-athletes-reading-scores/

 

[regentrude]

I would suspect that it has a lot more to do with the cram-and-dump common at all levels of education. We very rarely (MCAT, certification exams, etc., are the exceptions) test over more than one semester or at the maximum one year. Students learned and were moderately proficient with the material when it was examined, but then immediately began forgetting the material.

 

Yes, I find this highly detrimental as well.

 

When I went to university, we had three comprehensive examinations: over the material of 6 semesters of theoretical and of experimental physics, and over the material of 5 semesters of math. Our final transcript has those three grades. I can not overemphasize the effect of having to know ALL you learned at one given point in time.

This is completely missing in this educational system. Cram and dump.

[kiana]

colleges with a high-powered athletic program.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/07/us/ncaa-athletes-reading-scores/

 

 

Or colleges (they do exist) which have a "poor dears, they can't do any better" approach to education. There was one not long ago which attained a degree of notoriety after having issued a directive from above that for freshman courses, attendance, participation, and preparedness were to comprise 50% of the course grade, and for sophomores 40%.

 

Were I in such a situation, I would be sending out applications as rapidly as possible, and in the meantime, rewriting my freshman exams so that 80% was an A, 60% a B, etc.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

So for courses where there are multiple sections of the same course is there a common midterm or final exam that is drafted by the department?  I'm thinking of courses like College Algebra or Chemistry 101.

 

I ask because this was the case in my undergrad situation.  For courses that had essay based finals, I don't remember if this was the case.  But for the stuff that the majority of the class or majority of a particular major took, it was so. 

 

It gave an interesting opportunity to see which instructor was preparing the students to pass course exams and which one wasn't.  I remember that it also gave some students a reason to seek out study sessions held by instructors who were better communicators or who did a better job of explaining what was going on in a course.

 

Why would a student who has missed over half the class meetings expect that they would pass the class? 

[kiana]

So for courses where there are multiple sections of the same course is there a common midterm or final exam that is drafted by the department?  I'm thinking of courses like College Algebra or Chemistry 101.

 

(snipped)

 

Why would a student who has missed over half the class meetings expect that they would pass the class? 

 

In response to the first one, this depends on the university. Where I went to graduate school we definitely did. I remember at undergrad we used a nationally normed exam as the final for our two-semester chemistry sequence. The class average (the instructor told us) was usually right around the 50th percentile, which seems reasonable for a very average little school.

 

In response to the second one -- because in many high schools there is magical extra credit available at the end of the semester that can turn an F into a C.

 

[FaithManor]

In response to the first one, this depends on the university. Where I went to graduate school we definitely did. I remember at undergrad we used a nationally normed exam as the final for our two-semester chemistry sequence. The class average (the instructor told us) was usually right around the 50th percentile, which seems reasonable for a very average little school.

 

In response to the second one -- because in many high schools there is magical extra credit available at the end of the semester that can turn an F into a C.

 

Yes this. In my local district high school, students are given credit for not falling asleep in class.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Yes this. In my local district high school, students are given credit for not falling asleep in class.

 

:banghead:

 

[Reefgazer]

Yes, I think this is a problem, also. 

I would suspect that it has a lot more to do with the cram-and-dump common at all levels of education. We very rarely (MCAT, certification exams, etc., are the exceptions) test over more than one semester or at the maximum one year. Students learned and were moderately proficient with the material when it was examined, but then immediately began forgetting the material.

 

I do not really have a solution to this that does not involve a complete overhaul of the way the university system works, which would not be politically feasible, but you all can rest assured that when I am the Supreme Overlord of the Universe, I will fix it.

 

[Reefgazer]

For the biology lab courses I teach, the lab midterm and final are common departmental exams that all students in a course take.  My lecture exams are my own, however.  I find commonality or the lack of it makes very little difference in a student's grade; those who are doing well in lecture usually do well in lab and vice versa (for a whole host of reasons that were discussed in another thread a while back).

 

They expect they are going to pass because that's how life panned out for them in high school; administrators reinforce this attitude because they roll over when students complain or are in danger of dropping out (see another post I made elsewhere on the importance of high enrollment and graduation rates to administrators' prestige and ability to bring in money in the form of grants).

 

 

 

 

So for courses where there are multiple sections of the same course is there a common midterm or final exam that is drafted by the department?  I'm thinking of courses like College Algebra or Chemistry 101.

 

I ask because this was the case in my undergrad situation.  For courses that had essay based finals, I don't remember if this was the case.  But for the stuff that the majority of the class or majority of a particular major took, it was so. 

 

It gave an interesting opportunity to see which instructor was preparing the students to pass course exams and which one wasn't.  I remember that it also gave some students a reason to seek out study sessions held by instructors who were better communicators or who did a better job of explaining what was going on in a course.

 

Why would a student who has missed over half the class meetings expect that they would pass the class? 

[creekland]

They expect they are going to pass because that's how life panned out for them in high school;  

 

 

It is sadly amazing how many students go from failing to passing a class in the last week of the class - most commonly due to extra things the teacher had to provide for the student as pressure from guidance and/or the admin rested on them.  The (very few) teachers who won't do it are under terrible stress and pressure.

 

It really teaches the kids a horrible lesson IMO - one not often experienced IRL.  And yes, they often go to college and expect the same thing to happen if they contact the prof... or have their parents do it for them.

[MarkT]

There's also the deal of what is called a college credit course.  At some colleges, College Algebra can be counted for credit.  At others, it's a remedial course/pre-req.

 

That's usually based on the major - STEM folks would not get credit for College Algebra as would be expected.

 

[MarkT]

I would suspect that it has a lot more to do with the cram-and-dump common at all levels of education. We very rarely (MCAT, certification exams, etc., are the exceptions) test over more than one semester or at the maximum one year. Students learned and were moderately proficient with the material when it was examined, but then immediately began forgetting the material.

 

 

Then again all the material covered in a particular class may not be useful.  The sequencing into the higher level courses have expectations from the lower level. 

 

In the Engineering world,  the degree is primarily to show the employer that the individual has the base knowledge and is capable of doing complex math, etc.  Subject matter is OJT unless the student did some specific research while in school that was close to what the employer is doing (fairly rare).

 

When I interview college students I look for "bright-eyed and bushy tailed":  intelligence, enthusiasm, etc.  We usually let the grades and institution from (MIT, Stanford versus Podunk U) show the base knowledge. 

 

[AngieW in Texas]

Reading through all of these posts, I am SO glad that I live in an area with a great community college district.

 

My kids have all really enjoyed the classes they have taken there as dual credit.

While it bothered all of them right at first, they all came to really enjoy the fact that at least half of the students in every class were at least 30yo. My 16yo ended up becoming good friends with a 67yo woman, a 25yo Navy seal, and a 19yo all in her English Comp class. The 19yo was the only student aside from my daughter in the class of 28 who was under 20yo.

 

The classes my kids have taken at the cc were not watered down in any way and were quite tough, but with mostly great teachers (a few exceptions, as you will always find).

[In The Great White North]

 

reefgazer, on 25 Jul 2014 - 11:45 AM, said:

I didn't explain myself well.  Employers are complaining that students can't read, write, or think critically, despite the fact they have a degree.  This suggests that the college curriculum isn't very rigorous or non-capable students are passed through with inflated grades, which would mean, among other things, that the remediation is not effective enough to award them a degree.

 

I would suspect that it has a lot more to do with the cram-and-dump common at all levels of education. We very rarely (MCAT, certification exams, etc., are the exceptions) test over more than one semester or at the maximum one year. Students learned and were moderately proficient with the material when it was examined, but then immediately began forgetting the material.

 

 

I would expect students who "cram and dump" to lose course specific details but not skills that should have appeared in all courses, like reading, writing and thinking critically. I'm inclined to blame that more on dropping essay tests, in favor of easy-to-grade, multiple choice testing K - 16.

[FaithManor]

I would expect students who "cram and dump" to lose course specific details but not skills that should have appeared in all courses, like reading, writing and thinking critically. I'm inclined to blame that more on dropping essay tests, in favor of easy-to-grade, multiple choice testing K - 16.

I think you are probably right. Not once in four years of college did my husband or I take a single multiple choice, fill in the blank, matching, t\f exam! We wrote and wrote and wrote some more. There would be some questions that required only a one to three sentence response and then 2-4 essay writing prompts unless it was math or math based science in which there was a lot of problem solving and data interpretation, or "drop the needle" exam in music history in which one needed to now 50-150 classical works so well that she could drop the needle anywhere on the record and play the piece 30 seconds and the student had to identify the work, the composer, and identify year of composition plus or minus five years. Well, that and music theory exams which is another realm of crazy, though I am willing to admit that the artists had it the worst - I swear some of those professors were sociopathic!

 

It was tough and we worked very hard. Therefore, we had some serious skills when we got out!

[Sebastian (a lady)]

 

It was tough and we worked very hard. Therefore, we had some serious skills when we got out!

I think there are too many instances in education where we've forgotten this. We have no problem understanding that an athlete or musician will put in many demanding hours to get to a higher level. But we seem to think that failure and working more ought not be part of the process in academics.

[kiana]

That's usually based on the major - STEM folks would not get credit for College Algebra as would be expected.

 

Again, depends on the college. Most I've seen that count it at all will count it as a general elective for STEM majors, just not for credit towards the major.

I think you are probably right. Not once in four years of college did my husband or I take a single multiple choice, fill in the blank, matching, t\f exam! We wrote and wrote and wrote some more. There would be some questions that required only a one to three sentence response and then 2-4 essay writing prompts unless it was math or math based science in which there was a lot of problem solving and data interpretation, or "drop the needle" exam in music history in which one needed to now 50-150 classical works so well that she could drop the needle anywhere on the record and play the piece 30 seconds and the student had to identify the work, the composer, and identify year of composition plus or minus five years. Well, that and music theory exams which is another realm of crazy, though I am willing to admit that the artists had it the worst - I swear some of those professors were sociopathic!

 

It was tough and we worked very hard. Therefore, we had some serious skills when we got out!

 

I'm curious if this is because of the school you went to, or the program within the school?  And do you think your program is as rigorous today as it was then?  (Do they still call it "drop the needle" if the instructor is playing from a CD or MP3?)

 

It occurs to me that "describe what your exams are like" might be a good question to ask during college visits.

[FaithManor]

I don't know if they call it drop the needle unless the professor made a joking reference to "pre technology" days lol! But, music performance, theory and composition by nature has to be rigorous and especially if the school of music is trying to maintain a reputation. Maybe music ed has changed in some places, but the schools attracting the truly accomplished high school performers will remain competitive.

 

We did have a rigorous program across the board in our alma mater. I know of students today getting the same education particularly in smaller LAC's. But, even a top 30 schol like U if MI, despite the reputation, due to the size of classes may be allowing multiple choice crud in their large gen ed courses for the sake of ease. I really hope not. But it would not shock me. I did ask about that at MTU and due to the small classroom sizes and lower student/faculty ratio, exams are still pretty stout.

 

MP3 is a gift to music history faculty and students. It took a LOT of time to change out those crazy records and sometimes there would be scratches causing the music to get stuck! Being able to cue it all up in advance and be able to click and let there be music....definite improvement!

[regentrude]

 (Do they still call it "drop the needle" if the instructor is playing from a CD or MP3?)

 

yes, the professor in the music history class I took last year called it that. :-)