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Confusing statistics on college remedial courses


flyingiguana
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Claims that number of students in remedial college courses is a lot lower than usually reported. Maybe.

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/wp/2014/07/07/how-college-remediation-rates-are-distorted-and-why/

 

"Are a large percentage of high school graduates so unprepared for college when they get there that they have to take remedial courses to catch up? School reformers like to say so, and throw out big percentages of students who are said to need remediation. But where do these figures come from, and are they accurate? Award-winning Prinicipal Carol Burris of South Side High School in New York looks at this issue in the following post."

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I think the numbers are probably fairly accurate.  We're not talking about those attending very selective private colleges, because those typically don't even offer any remedial courses.  The initial figures took into account all college students, whereas the disputed figures are talking about first time in college students.  The reality is that many college students are not in college for the first time.  This is what's in the linked article:

 

On Page 8 of this NGA document, the following claim is made:

 

Â Ă¢â‚¬Â¦approximately 40 percent of all students and 61 percent of students who begin in community colleges enroll in a remedial education course at a cost to states of $1 billion a year.

 

 Really? The U.S. Education DepartmentĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s National Center for Educational Statistics report (NCES) puts the latest figure of the overall remediation rate for first-year college students at 20 percent.

 

More than likely both of those figures are accurate, but they're "measuring" two different things.   Anyone who is familiar with the demographics at community colleges would likely agree with the first figure of 61% needing some type of remediation.  Even for students who took math through pre-calc or so years ago, when they return to college, they often need to begin math at a remedial level as a lot has been forgotten.  And some of the first year students chose community college as their academics weren't sufficient for other colleges.   I would assume if the overall rate for first years is 20%, then the rate for first years at community colleges is far higher than that.  Basically you can't compare a study of all students with one targeting first year students.  JMO.

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I wonder about comparing systems to systems. Large university systems know exactly how many kids are enrolled in their remedial courses.

 

For example, "All first-time students at all 23 CSU campuses must meet these standards, principally through performance on a common statewide placement examination. Despite systemwide admissions policy that requires a college-preparatory curriculum and a grade point average in high school of B or higher, 68% of the 50,000 entering freshmen at CSU campuses require remediation in English language arts, or math, or both. "

 

http://www.highereducation.org/reports/college_readiness/gap.shtml

 

There is definitely going to be huge shifts in % depending upon the selectivity of the school.

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I wonder about comparing systems to systems. Large university systems know exactly how many kids are enrolled in their remedial courses.

 

For example, "All first-time students at all 23 CSU campuses must meet these standards, principally through performance on a common statewide placement examination. Despite systemwide admissions policy that requires a college-preparatory curriculum and a grade point average in high school of B or higher, 68% of the 50,000 entering freshmen at CSU campuses require remediation in English language arts, or math, or both. "

 

http://www.highereducation.org/reports/college_readiness/gap.shtml

 

There is definitely going to be huge shifts in % depending upon the selectivity of the school.

 

And many of the California State Colleges are asking students to attend community colleges first to get the remediation they need.

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The numbers are on absolutely on track with that we see locally at our community college. Students are test in reading, writing, and math placement. The vast majority need math remediation and many need reading and writing remediation. They are placed into "developmental" courses.

 

One thing a lot of people don't understand is that this has HUGE implications for student's chance of completing a degree. It isn't just that they need to take a single remedial course. For some students they need to take three math classes before they can even attempt a math course that will be required for their degree! They may need two or three English courses before they can take first year comp. Financial aid can be used toward remedial/developmental courses, but these courses don't help a student earn credits for their degree. So, what happens, again and again is that students hit up credit maximums and can't afford to finish their degrees. Some of these students graduated from high school with mostly As and Bs and didn't have any idea how far they were off being college ready. The chance of completing the degree goes down with each subject that requires remediation.

 

Even for the students who are much better off and are going to the four year institution, needing math remediation can have pretty far reaching implications. It isn't just one extra math course, but it can throw a wrench in the whole plan because the math course may be a prerequisite for econ or chemistry or another courses the student might want to take the first year. Often this has students switching out their major to something less challenging and that's unfortunate.

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There's also the deal of what is called a college credit course.  At some colleges, College Algebra can be counted for credit.  At others, it's a remedial course/pre-req.

 

Yes, and at some, even Intermediate Algebra counts for credit (although it usually doesn't transfer)

 

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The numbers are on absolutely on track with that we see locally at our community college. Students are test in reading, writing, and math placement. The vast majority need math remediation and many need reading and writing remediation. They are placed into "developmental" courses.

 

One thing a lot of people don't understand is that this has HUGE implications for student's chance of completing a degree. It isn't just that they need to take a single remedial course. For some students they need to take three math classes before they can even attempt a math course that will be required for their degree! They may need two or three English courses before they can take first year comp. Financial aid can be used toward remedial/developmental courses, but these courses don't help a student earn credits for their degree. So, what happens, again and again is that students hit up credit maximums and can't afford to finish their degrees. Some of these students graduated from high school with mostly As and Bs and didn't have any idea how far they were off being college ready. The chance of completing the degree goes down with each subject that requires remediation.

 

Even for the students who are much better off and are going to the four year institution, needing math remediation can have pretty far reaching implications. It isn't just one extra math course, but it can throw a wrench in the whole plan because the math course may be a prerequisite for econ or chemistry or another courses the student might want to take the first year. Often this has students switching out their major to something less challenging and that's unfortunate.

 

I've been looking at this as I worked through the process for my son to dual enroll in our local CC.  Our area has a lot of students who head to CC after graduating high school. In addition the area has a high percentage of minority students, many of whom speak English as a second language.

 

The closest CC has a number of remedial math classes before college level courses start.  This starts with Math 20 - Basic Mathematics.  Then Math  35- Pre-Algebra, 45 - Elementary Algebra, and 60 - Intermediate Algebra.  For students interested in science or engineering degrees, there is a Math 70 - Intermediate Algebra II. 

 

I would say that my kid is pretty bright, but not scary smart.  I was concerned that he might not test into the math 60 course because he's been doing geometry for a year and had the upheaval of our cross country move.  He tested into 70 and had the option of taking the test for the College Algebra class.  His math SAT is in the mid 600s.

 

It is hard for me to decipher the course info for the remedial classes. What I can say is that several sections of even the lower level 20 and 35 classes are waitlisted, because there are not enough seats.  There are 91sections (36 seats each) of Math 20, 35, and 45 (through elementary algebra) .  There are 59 sections of Math 60 and 70 (still below college level courses, but at an Algebra 2 or precalculus level.  Students could go from Math 70 into statistics or lower level calculus.)  There are 15 sections for the lowest college level math classes (College Algebra, Pre-Calculus, Calc 1,Topics in Math, Math for Teachers and Children's Mathematical Thinking. 

 

I don't have time to go through all the offerings, but I think it's safe to say that most of the math sections available are for courses below the college level. 

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Let's ignore, for this post, community colleges, which are designed to be places to give people an opportunity to catch up.

 

20% remediation rate for four year schools is still shockingly high.  What I don't understand is the disconnect between admissions and placement.  Presumably, everyone of these 20% who need remediation were given the thumbs up by the admissions team to be ready to succeed at their college.  Then, just a couple of months later, the placement teams in various departments learn the real truth.  It seems like there is no feedback from the placement results back to the admissions people.  Is there are correlation, say, on the Math SAT to the math placement test?  If so, maybe the admissions team needs to change the methods they use.  High school students are very attuned to what the admissions people are looking for, and certainly change their behavior when admissions signals that they are looking for more extracurriculars, or "leadership", or what not.  If admissions says "passing our Math placement test is a requirement for admissions", every high school student would be on that task.  One definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting different results.  It seems like this is what is happening in many colleges.

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20% remediation rate for four year schools is still shockingly high.  What I don't understand is the disconnect between admissions and placement.  Presumably, everyone of these 20% who need remediation were given the thumbs up by the admissions team to be ready to succeed at their college.  Then, just a couple of months later, the placement teams in various departments learn the real truth.  It seems like there is no feedback from the placement results back to the admissions people.  Is there are correlation, say, on the Math SAT to the math placement test?  If so, maybe the admissions team needs to change the methods they use.  High school students are very attuned to what the admissions people are looking for, and certainly change their behavior when admissions signals that they are looking for more extracurriculars, or "leadership", or what not.  If admissions says "passing our Math placement test is a requirement for admissions", every high school student would be on that task.  One definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting different results.  It seems like this is what is happening in many colleges.

 

High school students at high-performing schools? Yes.

 

High school students at mediocre schools? Not so much.

 

I currently work at a small university with very low admission requirements. It is not unusual for me to have students in my developmental math classes with 14-16 math ACT.

 

I have talked to students who:

-Were at a high school were virtually nothing was taught. All math was self-taught through handing out worksheets while the teacher played on the computer. If you did not bother the teacher and attempted all the worksheets, you would pass.

-Were homeschooled as a cover for the parent needing a caregiver. No actual instruction took place.

-Failed every exam, but passed because they "tried hard" and completed all the homework.

-Had not done math without a calculator since 5th grade.

-Had been allowed a formula sheet on every exam during high school, and were highly miffed that I expected them to know the quadratic formula.

 

and there's more that I can't think of right now.

 

I don't know how in blue blazes anyone other than the most able, those with a STEM-inclined parent, or those whose parents have the money for tutoring could learn math in these circumstances.

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High school students at high-performing schools? Yes.

 

High school students at mediocre schools? Not so much.

 

I currently work at a small university with very low admission requirements. It is not unusual for me to have students in my developmental math classes with 14-16 math ACT.

 

I have talked to students who:

-Were at a high school were virtually nothing was taught. All math was self-taught through handing out worksheets while the teacher played on the computer. If you did not bother the teacher and attempted all the worksheets, you would pass.

-Were homeschooled as a cover for the parent needing a caregiver. No actual instruction took place.

-Failed every exam, but passed because they "tried hard" and completed all the homework.

-Had not done math without a calculator since 5th grade.

-Had been allowed a formula sheet on every exam during high school, and were highly miffed that I expected them to know the quadratic formula.

 

and there's more that I can't think of right now.

 

I don't know how in blue blazes anyone other than the most able, those with a STEM-inclined parent, or those whose parents have the money for tutoring could learn math in these circumstances.

 

Kiana,

Your descriptions sounds very much like what a friend's dd experienced at the local high school.   Everything is on the computer.   The teacher sat at her desk all day, never taught a thing.   Students were expected to simply do the assignments on the computer.   She said whenever she would ask for help, the teacher's response was to belittle her and offer no assistance.

 

And this is at a supposedly "great" high school!.

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I currently work at a small university with very low admission requirements. It is not unusual for me to have students in my developmental math classes with 14-16 math ACT.

 

I have talked to students who:

-Were at a high school were virtually nothing was taught. All math was self-taught through handing out worksheets while the teacher played on the computer. If you did not bother the teacher and attempted all the worksheets, you would pass.

-Were homeschooled as a cover for the parent needing a caregiver. No actual instruction took place.

-Failed every exam, but passed because they "tried hard" and completed all the homework.

-Had not done math without a calculator since 5th grade.

-Had been allowed a formula sheet on every exam during high school, and were highly miffed that I expected them to know the quadratic formula.

 

and there's more that I can't think of right now.

 

I don't know how in blue blazes anyone other than the most able, those with a STEM-inclined parent, or those whose parents have the money for tutoring could learn math in these circumstances.

 

Yes, this is the norm at the local high schools.  The difference between math, English, and the sciences at the prep schools and the public schools is staggering.  The prep schools actually teach math, assign math homework every night, and expect some level of memorization of formulas.  The public schools are light on all of those issues.  A friend of ours who is the chair of the math department at a local high school said that she never assigns more than 100-150 algebra problems as homework during the semester (90 days) because "they'll never do them anyway."

 

I've posted before how the public schools in my area have scads of AP classes, but only a bare handful score a 4 or 5, and only in a few of the subjects.  All of the mid-range 4-year schools that are in-state only grant credit for a 4 or 5, and the selective schools only count a 4 or 5 in admissions decisions.

 

And yes, at the community college where I teach, 3/4 of the math offerings are remedial.  The remedial classes are taught by adjuncts with mostly full-time faculty members teaching the courses for credit.  This is a school with a solid nursing and STEM transfer program.

 

No regrets about hanging in there with homeschooling through high school.  Not every kid needs tough courses, but every kid should have the opportunity. Mine would not been challenged in public school.

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Kiana,

Your descriptions sounds very much like what a friend's dd experienced at the local high school.   Everything is on the computer.   The teacher sat at her desk all day, never taught a thing.   Students were expected to simply do the assignments on the computer.   She said whenever she would ask for help, the teacher's response was to belittle her and offer no assistance.

 

And this is at a supposedly "great" high school!.

 

It makes me so sad and so mad.

 

I think the first time someone told me ... actually she told me that her guidance counselor had advised her not to take math senior year because it wasn't necessary for a physical therapy major ... my immediate response was "well, you should go tell your guidance counselor she's an idiot", but I have learned a little tact since then.

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I currently work at a small university with very low admission requirements. It is not unusual for me to have students in my developmental math classes with 14-16 math ACT.

 

 

Exactly!  Why does your University admit students with a 14 math ACT?  

 

The university is just signaling to high school students that this is college-ready.  If you aren't asking the kids to do more math in high school, why would they?  Better to tell the kids that your minimum required ACT score is higher, and if they can't get to that level of work in High School, that you'll be happy to accept them after a year or two of math remediation in CC, which is probably much less expensive than your (four year?)  (public?) University.  But, I bet if you put the bar higher, you'll put more emphasis on the high schools and their students to do better.

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I have talked to students who:

-Were at a high school were virtually nothing was taught. All math was self-taught through handing out worksheets while the teacher played on the computer. If you did not bother the teacher and attempted all the worksheets, you would pass.

-Were homeschooled as a cover for the parent needing a caregiver. No actual instruction took place.

-Failed every exam, but passed because they "tried hard" and completed all the homework.

-Had not done math without a calculator since 5th grade.

-Had been allowed a formula sheet on every exam during high school, and were highly miffed that I expected them to know the quadratic formula.

 

 

It's sad to realize there really are public high schools worse than the one I work in.  Any teacher not actually teaching at my workplace would not be kept around.  The bar may be low, but there is a bar.

 

However, doing math solely with a calculator starts around 1st grade now - not 5th.  That's common unfortunately.

 

Formula sheets are also common.  

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Exactly!  Why does your University admit students with a 14 math ACT?  

 

The university is just signaling to high school students that this is college-ready.  If you aren't asking the kids to do more math in high school, why would they?  Better to tell the kids that your minimum required ACT score is higher, and if they can't get to that level of work in High School, that you'll be happy to accept them after a year or two of math remediation in CC, which is probably much less expensive than your (four year?)  (public?) University.  But, I bet if you put the bar higher, you'll put more emphasis on the high schools and their students to do better.

 

No.  If colleges were to put the bar higher, then schools would merely wring their hands and continue on with business as usual - assured that they don't have kids of that caliber.  Kids would be shortchanged even more as college degrees are needed so much more than before.  Kids who CAN do things often get that spark in college.  Ccs work for some, but not all.

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Exactly!  Why does your University admit students with a 14 math ACT?  

 

The university is just signaling to high school students that this is college-ready.  If you aren't asking the kids to do more math in high school, why would they?  Better to tell the kids that your minimum required ACT score is higher, and if they can't get to that level of work in High School, that you'll be happy to accept them after a year or two of math remediation in CC, which is probably much less expensive than your (four year?)  (public?) University.  But, I bet if you put the bar higher, you'll put more emphasis on the high schools and their students to do better.

 

Do you really think that raising our admissions standards is going to make a teacher who's quite happy to allow students to learn nothing while he plays on the computer because he's counting the days until retirement start actually teaching something?

 

Do you really think that most 14 year olds are aware enough to realize that they're learning nothing and they need to take matters into their own hands ... and start doing it?

 

I would love to still be enough of an idealist to believe that.

 

The general attitude is "well, that might work for students in THOSE states, but our students can't handle that".

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Do you really think that raising our admissions standards is going to make a teacher who's quite happy to allow students to learn nothing while he plays on the computer because he's counting the days until retirement start actually teaching something?

 

Do you really think that most 14 year olds are aware enough to realize that they're learning nothing and they need to take matters into their own hands ... and start doing it?

 

Yes.  Absolutely, yes, I do believe this.  Maybe not every single teacher, but the word about what colleges want for admission quickly gets shared with high school students.  We make kids jump over stupid, meaningless bars for college admissions -- make them demonstrate "leadership", and athletics, and flute playing and honor societies, etc., and they begrudgingly do it, because they are told it is important for college admissions.

 

And, I think 14 year olds (and more to the point, their parents and peers) are much more mislead by the current situation, where they are told that a 14 ACT score will get them into college, except once they are there, they suddenly are told that it won't get them through college, and least not without a lot of expensive remediation.

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Yes.  Absolutely, yes, I do believe this.  Maybe not every single teacher, but the word about what colleges want for admission quickly gets shared with high school students.  We make kids jump over stupid, meaningless bars for college admissions -- make them demonstrate "leadership", and athletics, and flute playing and honor societies, etc., and they begrudgingly do it, because they are told it is important for college admissions.

 

Most of the students at these schools are not doing this.

 

You are confusing what students at affluent high schools do with what students at impoverished, low-achieving high schools do.

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 the word about what colleges want for admission quickly gets shared with high school students.  We make kids jump over stupid, meaningless bars for college admissions -- make them demonstrate "leadership", and athletics, and flute playing and honor societies, etc., and they begrudgingly do it, because they are told it is important for college admissions.

 

 

This may happen in good schools and in schools around you, but it doesn't happen in my average high school.  Except for a few who have experienced parents, kids don't start thinking about college until late in their junior year or senior year.  There are some each year who decide to start looking at colleges in the spring of their senior year - somehow - all of the guidance speeches and guidelines for dates fell on deaf ears until then.

 

At our school, kids who are in band/sports/clubs or groups do it because they want to.  There may be a rare one or two who do it for college, but certainly not the majority.

 

It is difficult for teens to look into their future - sometimes even when they have parents who want them to be doing it.  Even when they do consider their future, they often have no clue what they are looking for.  This is why the school offering the red carpet and T-shirt at visitation often becomes a "great school."

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Most of the students at these schools are not doing this.

 

You are confusing what students at affluent high schools do with what students at impoverished, low-achieving high schools do.

 

Or even average high schools.  Your thoughts/experiences mirror mine.

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Most of the students at these schools are not doing this.

 

 

I would argue that's because they don't have to -- they can still get into college.

 

I'm curious what percentage of these kids with a 14 math ACT graduate within 5 years.  I'm guessing, what, 20%?  10%?  Isn't it borderline fraudulent to admit them, take their money and fail the vast majority of them?

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I would argue that's because they don't have to -- they can still get into college.

 

I'm curious what percentage of these kids with a 14 math ACT graduate within 5 years.  I'm guessing, what, 20%?  10%?  Isn't it borderline fraudulent to admit them, take their money and fail the vast majority of them?

 

So could the students who are jumping through all those hoops, and much more easily.

 

I am not sure at all universities combined, but at ours, the graduation rate for the students who place into at least 2/3 developmental classes (reading, writing, math) is very close to the graduation rate for the students who place into 1 or 0, when compared to a cohort that is one year off. For example, the 4-year graduation rate for students who do not place into developmental is very comparable to the 5-year graduation rate for students who place into developmental. This seems reasonable to me.

 

The vast majority of them do not fail. The pass rate for students with 14 ACT math (a small minority) is within 10% of the average pass rate for the whole class.

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Is there are correlation, say, on the Math SAT to the math placement test? 

 

The math part of the SAT only requires that the student know Algebra I and geometry.  Generally remedial math at the college level means intermediate algebra (Algebra II) or precalculus.

 

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I would argue that's because they don't have to -- they can still get into college.

 

I'm curious what percentage of these kids with a 14 math ACT graduate within 5 years.  I'm guessing, what, 20%?  10%?  Isn't it borderline fraudulent to admit them, take their money and fail the vast majority of them?

 

The student who has been plugging through at an average high school, probably getting a B average, oblivious of their future until spring of their junior year when someone tells them they need to sign up for the SAT, then gets their 430 math score back is not suddenly going to change anything.  They are going to assume that's their level and find an appropriate college (if still desiring to be college bound).

 

If there weren't some available, their chances to do anything requiring a college degree would be slim.  

 

And some of these kids ARE talented - they just haven't been given decent instruction - or maybe their "math" brain developed late - or maybe they are talented in other fields and can barely comprehend higher level math.

 

The bar at many schools is LOW.  How high can they jump?  Until they get an opportunity to do it, we'll never know.  These kids can't get into places like Penn St.  Cc will work for some, but others truly do better at 4 year schools where they can get away from home.  It all depends upon the student.

 

There are oodles of colleges out there.  None are right for everyone.  Pretty much all are right for someone.  Success isn't guaranteed at any college even with perfect scores going in, but success can come from any college given the right circumstances.  SAT/ACT scores rarely matter after admission to college.

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I don't know how in blue blazes anyone other than the most able, those with a STEM-inclined parent, or those whose parents have the money for tutoring could learn math in these circumstances.

 

At my sons' former school, a supposedly "rigorous" private school, I had to "re"teach the math lesson every single night.  I know that the teacher worked examples in front of the class but, apparently, she never talked about the underlying concepts and never had the kids actually attempt any of the problems in class.  And, also apparently, she would belittle them when they asked questions.

 

Both of my kids went into this woman's class with a very solid math background and left with their confidence less than intact and any affection they had for math destroyed.

 

And I'm guessing this particular teacher could be classified as one of the good ones.

 

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I am not sure at all universities combined, but at ours, the graduation rate for the students who place into at least 2/3 developmental classes (reading, writing, math) is very close to the graduation rate for the students who place into 1 or 0, when compared to a cohort that is one year off. For example, the 4-year graduation rate for students who do not place into developmental is very comparable to the 5-year graduation rate for students who place into developmental. This seems reasonable to me.

 

That's really good.  I don't have current statistics, but several years ago the graduation rate among those who took developmental classes was around 10% within 5 years versus 20-25% within 5 years for those who didn't take developmental classes.

 

They redid everything though, and I'm hoping that it is better.  

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That's really good.  I don't have current statistics, but several years ago the graduation rate among those who took developmental classes was around 10% within 5 years versus 20-25% within 5 years for those who didn't take developmental classes.

 

They redid everything though, and I'm hoping that it is better.  

 

???  I'm missing something.  Are you saying that those who go to college only have a 20 - 25% graduation rate even when they don't take developmental classes?

 

I've yet to see a college with stats that low.  I even just looked up one of the lower level private colleges some of our students choose and their rate is 38%.  I've no idea how many need remedial classes, but a good number of their students have math SATs in the 400 range.

 

That graduation rate's still low, but the way I see it, roughly 4 out of 10 students attending there graduate with a piece of paper that can be very valuable for them.  If they'd never gotten the chance to go, they'd have been out of luck.  (This is not a 60K/year school.)

 

I actually like that the US has multiple options for college degrees for those who aren't fortunate enough to be top of the top at decent places whether it is due to a poor foundation or different talents or whatever.  Many would be missing out if the bar were too high just to get in everywhere.

 

That said, it's still important to watch debt.  It's always important to watch debt regardless of scores.

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Let's ignore, for this post, community colleges, which are designed to be places to give people an opportunity to catch up.

 

20% remediation rate for four year schools is still shockingly high.  What I don't understand is the disconnect between admissions and placement.  Presumably, everyone of these 20% who need remediation were given the thumbs up by the admissions team to be ready to succeed at their college.  Then, just a couple of months later, the placement teams in various departments learn the real truth.  It seems like there is no feedback from the placement results back to the admissions people.  Is there are correlation, say, on the Math SAT to the math placement test?  If so, maybe the admissions team needs to change the methods they use.  High school students are very attuned to what the admissions people are looking for, and certainly change their behavior when admissions signals that they are looking for more extracurriculars, or "leadership", or what not.  If admissions says "passing our Math placement test is a requirement for admissions", every high school student would be on that task.  One definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting different results.  It seems like this is what is happening in many colleges.

 

This is what I am not understanding: are colleges setting the SAT bar low in order to..... get more students and make more money?  Or?  Then the students who come in can't hack university courses and need lower level courses?

 

Seems odd.

 

L

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???  I'm missing something.  Are you saying that those who go to college only have a 20 - 25% graduation rate even when they don't take developmental classes?

 

I've yet to see a college with stats that low.  I even just looked up one of the lower level private colleges some of our students choose and their rate is 38%.  I've no idea how many need remedial classes, but a good number of their students have math SATs in the 400 range.

 

That graduation rate's still low, but the way I see it, roughly 4 out of 10 students attending there graduate with a piece of paper that can be very valuable for them.  If they'd never gotten the chance to go, they'd have been out of luck.  (This is not a 60K/year school.)

 

I actually like that the US has multiple options for college degrees for those who aren't fortunate enough to be top of the top at decent places whether it is due to a poor foundation or different talents or whatever.  Many would be missing out if the bar were too high just to get in everywhere.

 

That said, it's still important to watch debt.  It's always important to watch debt regardless of scores.

 

Yes, that is a correct.  The local community college (2-year degrees) where I work has a graduation rate within 5 years of 20-25%, depending on the year that you look at.

 

That's actually one of the higher ones in my state.

 

Now granted, community colleges fulfill a variety of needs.  Some people take just a few classes and never plan to take more.

 

But this is something I always warn local parents about.  There are a higher percentage of students there would are never going to graduate than you will find at a 4-year school.  Obviously once you get past the first year it does get better though.

 

It still fulfills a need of course.  Many of the students who do graduate could not afford a 4-year school, and there are excellent transfer agreements in place as well as a nursing program.

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Yes, that is a correct.  The local community college (2-year degrees) where I work has a graduation rate within 5 years of 20-25%, depending on the year that you look at.

 

 

Ok, I was thinking four year schools, not ccs.  Yes, the lower graduation rate (for whatever reason) of ccs is why, for some students, a four year school is a better option in spite of the difference in price.  It all depends upon the student and the school.

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My niece got college credit at the local, not very good, community college for....wait for it...PRE-ALGEBRA! Still shaking my head on that one.

 

But, she'd never be able to transfer it to any of the four year colleges or even the really good cc about 55 minutes from here. So, it's a "moot" credit. However, that is one thing that can be confusing about remediation. At the good cc, if you have to take reading coursework because you scored less than a 22 on the reading comp portion of the ACT, or pre-algebra and college algebra for scoring again, less than a 22 on the math portion, or remedial English for falling under that 22 in that portion, then you are taking them in order to get access to for credit coursework. You pay the same price as everyone taking real, freshman college courses, but you aren't getting any credit for it. So, remedial is REMEDIAL, looks remedial, and is listed as remedial. Meanwhile, my niece has 3 actual credits of "College Math" and that's what they put on the her transcript. The other Michigan colleges and universities are very aware of this cc's reputation though, so no one is fooled but the naĂƒÂ¯ve student who might think she'll be transferring course credit. At any school I know of in Michigan that ranks in the top 200, credit is not given for anything lower than pre-calc, nor are any reading comprehension courses counted either towards graduation either. You pay for it because you need it in order to be ready for post-high school work though. It's an expensive and self-esteem damaging lesson many kids learn.

 

Given the statistics of our local high school whose average composite ACT score last year was 20.3, and the valedictorian 4.0 (believe me, to use a quote from Princess Bride, "Valedictorian, I don't think that word means what you think it means" was lauded for his 26 (usually at about a 24 or 25 the administration starts hailing the kids as super geniuses), then I can totally believe that 61% need remediation. That would jive very much with the statistics here. We have 9 school districts in our rural county and only one routinely has a graduating class over 125 and most run right around 100 with two that have only 40-75. So we are talking maybe 900 students and in one of the county commissioners' meetings, they expressed concern that only two of the districts had a composite above the national average of 20.5 (if memory serves) and most of the time it wasn't by much with only 10% of the students breaking 24 and only 1% scoring 28 or higher. Given that they use the ACT though on all of the students, even autistic children, some of the Down's children, and others with pretty severe learning disabilities, the numbers could also be skewed worse than it is for non LD students. My guess is that the average might be around 23 for students without LD's. Still, at a 22 in the math or English, while that might be enough for the community college with the small classroom sizes to send students on to pre-calc (though I would want to evaluate them in some other manner to make sure they are ready - obviously some students are good mathematicians, just not fast so the timed aspect of the test may not show off their real skills well), I think that for many departments that is still too low. When dd declared her chemistry major, the minimum was 26 in the math and reading comprehension and that was true of nursing as well.

 

In terms of transfer, things are very hit and miss here. We don't have a solid system like California's. So our cc system doesn't lead directly into any of the state schools. So if you take cc College Writing, you'll get an English elective and take it again at the four year. Therefore, most students are wise to either choose a two year program such as ADN or Vet Tech or Aviation Mechanics, complete it and then have their A.A. and move on to a job, or avoid the cc if a four year college is where they hope to land in the future since it is no savings to pay tuition to take coursework twice. The only caveat to that is DE which is paid for by the state for PS students, or if you really must take remedial work because you may not be able to get that at a four year, and it would cost you a lot more tuition to not get credit anyway. DE can work for parents hoping to challenge their student on the state's dime since AP courses have been cut to the bone as more remedial high school classes are added at the expense of the higher achieving students.

 

Our cc's usually do not have the purpose though of being traditional college for traditional students. So, it's hard to take their statistics and apply them to everyone. Usually, they cater to already employed persons who need enrichment coursework or something specific in order to remain in their job, get a promotion, etc. They provide trade school programs such as the two year welding technology course that can lead to a decent job though many times, due to the state of manufacturing in Michigan, once completed the student needs to move out of state to get a good position. Two year nursing, medical transcriptionist, business classes, computer classes not towards a software engineering degree...most would never count for that, but more in line with "my employer needs me to learn Quickbooks or Adobe or whatever" type courses. Many, many people who use our local cc's are never looking at graduating with a two year degree much less a four year degree...massage therapy is another popular program. I think that is one reason that the state doesn't get active in controlling the quality and streamlining the transfer process because that would be a lot of work to serve a very small population of students who would be BA/BS seeking and starting out at the CC.

 

In terms of a two year, A.A. graduation rate, since the bulk of the students are non-traditional, already working students or those that can only afford one or two classes per semester, the graduation rate is very, very low. They list their rate of graduating students OR transferring out within 150% of normal time (six years) as 11%. Yes, you read that right. That is the state of things at the CC closest to us. It is a cc I would never use for my children and the one that gave my niece 3 college credits for pre-algebra!

 

The better cc for 2012 had a graduation rate of 14% again within that 150% of normal time figure. Since they do offer some bachelor's degree programs such as business, management, and a couple of others, that will include BA/BS students as well as AA's. Again, very, very low. They do not give credit towards graduation for remedial work, so if 61% of students were taking a couple of semesters of getting ready for college work, then that would certainly be a big factor in their graduation rate numbers. While the closest, regional state U does offer some remedial work, and the next closest and MUCH better one only offers college algebra and a pre-writing class for College Composition, they offer very little else in that regard and expect students to get themselves up to speed before applying. That makes their numbers look much better because they do not have to count those semesters of "college" in their graduation rate.

 

Oh, and the better cc's also have waiting lists for many courses because they are landlocked and can't expand, but very popular as a commuter colleges due to the price tag. So, this rate also reflects that fact that some students, like my nephew, had to wait three semesters to get a 300 level computer hardware class he needed to complete his AA. That really skews the AA graduation statistics because he and others like him waited an extra year in order graduation over one class! It is VERY common with popular programs.

 

As with any statistics, you do really need to dig into each particular schools numbers in order to understand what they actually measure. For many schools, you can't compare them because it's apples and oranges. But, honestly, I do think that the number of students needing remedial coursework in order to be ready for freshman work is on the rise dramatically in my state.

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One factor did occur to me about the closest CC.  I mentioned that my area has a high minority population (the closest high school is 91% minority), with a lot of English language learners.  Given our proximity to the border, it is quite possible that some of the students in the CC didn't actually have a standard high school experience. 

 

It may be that some of the students are really taking those lower level math classes as the first time they are encountering the math.

 

On the other hand, there are some articles recently about how the college is limiting students to only two chances to pass a course.  There is a shortage of cc seats available state wide.  Some students complained that they were perpetually wait listed for courses, because some students were taking them 3-4 times to pass them.  Interestingly an article in the college paper described this as jerking the rug out from under students by not giving them the opportunity to succeed (by only giving them two tries at a course).

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I would really wonder about anyone that took more than two tries to pass a course.  The second time around you should know what to expect and have a lot of the work done already.  If not, you know what to do to prepare for the second class.  Maybe the rug should be pulled.  

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.  There is a shortage of cc seats available state wide.  Some students complained that they were perpetually wait listed for courses, because some students were taking them 3-4 times to pass them.  Interestingly an article in the college paper described this as jerking the rug out from under students by not giving them the opportunity to succeed (by only giving them two tries at a course).

 

They are allowed more than two tries. At some community colleges, they will be bump down the registration line so that the wait listed students would get a chance.  The community colleges nearby already have day and night classes as well as Saturday classes. It is hard to add more classes or more portable classrooms to cope with the long waitlist.  Add to that the DE agreements with the local school districts and I don't know how bad the backlog is.

 

From one of my nearby community colleges

"After Two Attempts

If you have made two attempts for the same class and have not successfully completed the class with a satisfactory grade (including a W) you will not be able to register again for the class without first seeing a Counselor. The Counselor will provide you with strategies to be successful the third and last time you will take the class.

 

After Three Attempts

Permission to enroll in a course beyond three times will only be granted due to documented extenuating circumstances, significant lapse of time (5 years) and legally mandated for training/employment.

 

* Extenuating Circumstances are defined as documented cases of accidents, illnesses or other circumstances beyond the control of the student that necessitate extended absences for a course(s)."

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One factor did occur to me about the closest CC.  I mentioned that my area has a high minority population (the closest high school is 91% minority), with a lot of English language learners.  Given our proximity to the border, it is quite possible that some of the students in the CC didn't actually have a standard high school experience. 
 
this is a rabbit trail, sorry! but that statement stood out to me  (as part of a "minority" that is heavily over-represented in higher education!).
 
California is going to have to come up with a different term than "minority" for non-whites/non-Asians, when, in many areas, 91% or more of the population is "minority" ...
 
San Jose (now often self-styled as San JosĂƒÂ©), for example, a city with a population of over 1 million, is 1/3 white, 1/3 Asian, and 1/3 Latino. No majority ...
 
okay, here are the official statistics. 33% Asian, 33% Latino, and 28% white, with 3% black and 3% other.
 
this mix is basically mirrored in the makeup of the student body at San JosĂƒÂ© State, but much less so in that of nearby UC Berkeley (= more Asians; far fewer Latinos).

 

 

More relevant to this thread ... I too was shocked to find out that there was a recent state law limiting the number of times a student could repeat a CC course to something like 4 or 5. What?! Then my son started taking classes at our local CC and quickly grew disgusted with the whole atmosphere. Yes, some students do manage to transfer each year from our CC to four-year colleges, including a few to UC Berkeley and Stanford, and there are some dedicated teachers, but the general atmosphere is the "slacker" culture you find at our local public high school. (This isn't true at every CA CC ... another one just a bit farther away has a much better reputation, and my son is taking a UC-transferable class there this summer.)

 

One of my son's math professors told him that there are people who enroll in a CC class every semester just in order to get the student discount on auto insurance, for example. Then they drop the class and "retake" it in subsequent semesters. The law is an attempt to stop people from taking advantage of the system.

 

(ETA: the ridiculously cheap tuition at CA CCs makes it easier to do this ... free until 1984, $11/unit in 2000, & holding steady and still a relative bargain at $46/unit now)

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I just looked up a little bit about our local cc.  They list almost 21,000 for attendance, but just over 2000 for "degree seeking freshmen."  There are plenty taking classes there for other purposes.

 

Cc does work for some as a money saving alternative for the start of a 4 year degree, but again, many do better and/or prefer simply going to a 4 year school for a variety of reasons.

 

For us, cc worked well to get a couple college classes in during high school.  Oldest got to use his credit.  Middle did not.  Youngest can use his Bio 101 credit I think.  I'll know more in another month or so...

 

In hindsight, oldest probably should not have used his credit since the equivalent 4 year class at his 4 year school was more rigorous, but whether that is true or not elsewhere will depend upon the colleges involved.  Since his credits weren't for pre-reqs, using the credit didn't actually hurt him.  

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this is a rabbit trail, sorry! but that statement stood out to me  (as part of a "minority" that is heavily over-represented in higher education!).
 
California is going to have to come up with a different term than "minority" for non-whites/non-Asians, when, in many areas, 91% or more of the population is "minority" ...
 
San Jose (now often self-styled as San JosĂƒÂ©), for example, a city with a population of over 1 million, is 1/3 white, 1/3 Asian, and 1/3 Latino. No majority ...
 
okay, here are the official statistics. 33% Asian, 33% Latino, and 28% white, with 3% black and 3% other.
 
this mix is basically mirrored in the makeup of the student body at San JosĂƒÂ© State, but much less so in that of nearby UC Berkeley (= more Asians; far fewer Latinos).

 

 

More relevant to this thread ... I too was shocked to find out that there was a recent state law limiting the number of times a student could repeat a CC course to something like 4 or 5. What?! Then my son started taking classes at our local CC and quickly grew disgusted with the whole atmosphere. Yes, some students do manage to transfer each year from our CC to four-year colleges, including a few to UC Berkeley and Stanford, and there are some dedicated teachers, but the general atmosphere is the "slacker" culture you find at our local public high school. (This isn't true at every CA CC ... another one just a bit farther away has a much better reputation, and my son is taking a UC-transferable class there this summer.)

 

One of my son's math professors told him that there are people who enroll in a CC class every semester just in order to get the student discount on auto insurance, for example. Then they drop the class and "retake" it in subsequent semesters. The law is an attempt to stop people from taking advantage of the system.

 

(ETA: the ridiculously cheap tuition at CA CCs makes it easier to do this ... free until 1984, $11/unit in 2000, & holding steady and still a relative bargain at $46/unit now)

 

 

It is hard to slice and dice what population a cc is serving without a lot more details.  The numbers on % graduating with a degree fall far short of describing many of the reasons someone would attend CC.  How do you sift out high school students working up a level, students who are trying to learn what they supposedly already learned in high school, students who weren't prepared for a four year college, students who were well qualified for a 4 year school but want/need the CC for family or financial reasons, older adults who are going back to try to finish a degree, adults who are retraining, students who are taking classes in a specific department just to learn/improve a skill (like a foreign language or computers) or older adults who just want a new challenge?

 

Which of these students count against the college if they don't get a degree?  Which of them are going to contribute to a quality classroom environment? 

 

I don't know what to make of the local CC yet.  Ask me in a year, when I see what the math work load for my son is like.  I did meet a charming young man at a local Japanese restaurant who is studying Japanese at the CC (he's not a heritage speaker).  He spoke highly of his instructors and the general level of classes he's taking, but did caution that it was easy to get swept up in the social life and clubs available, to the detriment of ones grades.

 

The numbers I do think are important are those concerning students who took and passed a course in high school, but test into a level that is far lower on the CC placement tests.  That IMHO does indicate a problem. 

 

 

Yes, I agree that the general term "minority" to mean "non-Caucasian" has little meaning here.  Nor was it significant in Hawaii.  Nor did it convey a whole lot in the DC suburban area. 

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I would really wonder about anyone that took more than two tries to pass a course.  The second time around you should know what to expect and have a lot of the work done already.  If not, you know what to do to prepare for the second class.  Maybe the rug should be pulled.  

 

I had a student who took my class three times.  Each time she started out with a high "A" and then disappeared in the last four weeks.  I always wonder what happened to her because she was a good student and very pleasant in class.

 

The college I work for now has a complicated formula that controls this.  Based on how many classes you withdraw from, what your grades are, and how many retakes you've had, you might not be able to register for a semester or you may have to register in person after meeting with a dean and getting their approval on your proposed schedule.

 

I know why they have to do this.  Indeed, there were a few students who kept crashing over and over who were keeping out students who were likely going to be successful.  They've reduced the overall number of classes and require that each section be at 80% or better just before the semester starts.  They had to do something!

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That's really good.  I don't have current statistics, but several years ago the graduation rate among those who took developmental classes was around 10% within 5 years versus 20-25% within 5 years for those who didn't take developmental classes.

 

They redid everything though, and I'm hoping that it is better.  

 

So I went out of town so I haven't been responding:

 

One big issue with CC graduation rates is that many students, while successful in what they used the CC for, do not count as a success. For example, a student who flunks out of a 4-year college and attends an open-admission CC to get some good grades so they can get readmitted counts as a failure, because they did not complete a degree. This applies even if they successfully complete a 4-year degree after readmission.

 

We also frequently make students sign up as degree-seeking students in order to get financial aid, even if all they need to do is pass remedial math and English for a job. They get their math and English done and immediately drop out, because they got what they came in aiming to get -- they just didn't get what they came in telling the CC they were aiming to get.

 

Accounting for this sort of stuff in effectiveness is currently a hot debate topic among the CC community.

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I would really wonder about anyone that took more than two tries to pass a course.  The second time around you should know what to expect and have a lot of the work done already.  If not, you know what to do to prepare for the second class.  Maybe the rug should be pulled.  

I'd agree on that IF there are exceptions for people who have been out of school for x years -- for example, if someone fails a course twice at 18 because they're a teenaged idiot who isn't attending class, there's no reason they shouldn't be able to try again when they're 25 and suddenly realized that they really don't want to be without a diploma all their life.

 

Most of the people who fail a class more than once either have serious attendance/motivation/life issues or are tremendously underprepared and really need another level of remediation that isn't offered.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Perhaps this explains why employers complain that college graduates cannot read, handle math, or write.  There seems to be no real college-level standards for anyone.

So could the students who are jumping through all those hoops, and much more easily.

 

I am not sure at all universities combined, but at ours, the graduation rate for the students who place into at least 2/3 developmental classes (reading, writing, math) is very close to the graduation rate for the students who place into 1 or 0, when compared to a cohort that is one year off. For example, the 4-year graduation rate for students who do not place into developmental is very comparable to the 5-year graduation rate for students who place into developmental. This seems reasonable to me.

 

The vast majority of them do not fail. The pass rate for students with 14 ACT math (a small minority) is within 10% of the average pass rate for the whole class.

 

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Yes.  For administrators at my college, the name of the game is increasing enrollment. It makes the administration look good.  When their pass/graduation rates fall, they come dogging the science professors and accuse them of getting enjoyment out of failing people.  No kiddin'.  It's been this way for the past 5-8 years where I teach.

This is what I am not understanding: are colleges setting the SAT bar low in order to..... get more students and make more money?  Or?  Then the students who come in can't hack university courses and need lower level courses?

 

Seems odd.

 

L

 

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Perhaps this explains why employers complain that college graduates cannot read, handle math, or write.  There seems to be no real college-level standards for anyone.

I'm at a bit of a loss as to where you're getting that from the bolded. It seems that you are implying that because moderately unprepared students are able to catch up with an extra year, there cannot be standards for anyone.

 

Simply because we admit underprepared students does not mean that we do not hold them to college standards in college coursework. Of course they are not held to college standards in developmental coursework, and that is why it is non-credit-bearing.

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I can't imagine which colleges those employees who can't read, write and do math, are graduating from, but it sounds like yours may be one of them.  As Kiana said, even at community colleges the placement tests screen for students who need remedial help and these courses must be completed before they can take courses for credit in that area of study.  For high school graduates, that is a huge problem due to grade inflation and lack of rigor at many high schools.

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My university basically admits anyone, it's a regional state university. They have a qualifying ACT/SAT score to automatically opt out of remedial classes, if not you can test out. I had to test out of everything because my ACT was too old. Our remedial classes (with the exception of reading) have more sections each semester than most of the other classes in the department combined. You can progress more quickly through the remedial math, I believe there are 3 levels. You could do them all in a semester if you were motivated. Many of those who were in testing with me last fall were non-traditional students, one was a former soldier who was joining the police academy training through our school - he was in his early 20s, some were international students, and more than one was over 30. I'm assuming most non-traditional students don't keep a supply of math text and writing texts around to study from like I do. 

 

I think it's sad that so many need those remedial classes, yet with the push to have a degree to get any type of real paying job, they serve a purpose. My university has several majors from AA/AS to MA/MS that will allow a person to walk out with marketable skills, a lot of their focus in the last few years have been adding those "practical" majors. This town in particular has not recovered well from the economic crash. It was recently noted as one of the unhappiest cities in the country (Forbes or Wall Street article, I forget), and the university draws from many rural areas. They have transfer agreements with other state universities, which some rank much higher than mine. If the remedial classes give a larger swatch of the populace a way out of an uneducated life (whatever that means) then great, I'm glad they're there. I'm also glad I didn't have to take any. At $700 to $1000 a pop for a class with books it's not an inexpensive remediation. 

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I can't imagine which colleges those employees who can't read, write and do math, are graduating from, but it sounds like yours may be one of them.  As Kiana said, even at community colleges the placement tests screen for students who need remedial help and these courses must be completed before they can take courses for credit in that area of study.  For high school graduates, that is a huge problem due to grade inflation and lack of rigor at many high schools.

 

I have a bias against Kansas Universities after hearing about an applicant at a former job.  He had a B.S. or more probably a B.A. from a Kansas University, and during the interview something clued the manager in that he couldn't read.  So, he was asked to read the headline of the newspaper, and FAILED.  The guy had played football.  Not good enough to go pro, but obviously good enough to skate by.   I wish I could remember which university it was so my bias could be more restricted.  Sad thing is, this job didn't require a college degree.  It was heavy sales.  You just need to be able to read the sales pitch doc, and fill out forms.  

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I didn't explain myself well.  Employers are complaining that students can't read, write, or think critically, despite the fact they have a degree.  This suggests that the college curriculum isn't very rigorous or non-capable students are passed through with inflated grades, which would mean, among other things, that the remediation is not effective enough to award them a degree.

I'm at a bit of a loss as to where you're getting that from the bolded. It seems that you are implying that because moderately unprepared students are able to catch up with an extra year, there cannot be standards for anyone.

 

Simply because we admit underprepared students does not mean that we do not hold them to college standards in college coursework. Of course they are not held to college standards in developmental coursework, and that is why it is non-credit-bearing.

 

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They are graduating from the college where I teach, which is a fairly large college, as well as other local colleges in the area.  I have no doubt this scenario is repeated elsewhere across the USA.

 

Although this incident did not happen at the college where I teach, it is indicative of what I am describing.  I personally know this instructor to be an excellent instructor, and this article demonstrates what happens when faculty around here won't inflate grades.  The instructor is fully capable of imparting his wisdom to students, but the students are unwilling to put in the effort it takes to learn the material.  This guy wouldn't roll for it, and took the fall.  The lazy way out is for administrators to say "he couldn't teach", but that is not the reality here.

 

 http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2008/05/14/aird#sthash.cBft9jSR.dpbs

 

ETA:  The placement tests screen for reading and math ability.  They speak nothing about the willingness to put effort into a tough topic when one has to study to pass a course, rather than have the grade handed to them at a mediocre public high school. I have had failing students flat out tell me they don't open the book or notes between classes, that they can't attend classes because of child care or work commitments, or that they hated the class and didn't care if they scraped by with a "D". But the administration holds anything less than a "C" against the faculty where I teach. Our "pass rate" is considered in our evaluations and means a "C" or above, even with the students who will not work to learn the material. That's one of the major problems with higher ed (and high school, too).

 

 

I can't imagine which colleges those employees who can't read, write and do math, are graduating from, but it sounds like yours may be one of them.  As Kiana said, even at community colleges the placement tests screen for students who need remedial help and these courses must be completed before they can take courses for credit in that area of study.  For high school graduates, that is a huge problem due to grade inflation and lack of rigor at many high schools.

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I didn't explain myself well.  Employers are complaining that students can't read, write, or think critically, despite the fact they have a degree.  This suggests that the college curriculum isn't very rigorous or non-capable students are passed through with inflated grades, which would mean, among other things, that the remediation is not effective enough to award them a degree.

 

I would suspect that it has a lot more to do with the cram-and-dump common at all levels of education. We very rarely (MCAT, certification exams, etc., are the exceptions) test over more than one semester or at the maximum one year. Students learned and were moderately proficient with the material when it was examined, but then immediately began forgetting the material.

 

I do not really have a solution to this that does not involve a complete overhaul of the way the university system works, which would not be politically feasible, but you all can rest assured that when I am the Supreme Overlord of the Universe, I will fix it.

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