Need advice on language arts asynchrony

[lewelma]

My ds(10) is not a prolific or fast writer, but he sure is good.  However, his spelling is really holding him back, and I need advice as to how to proceed forward. 

 

I'll start with a writing sample and then give some more background.  He wrote this over the period of an hour, with a lot of encouragement from me to "be more specific, put it more detail." I have included all the spelling errors, but there were an additional 5 words that I spelled for him (don't remember which ones). And just so you don't think he is a genius child, I have included the description that he was mimicking.

 

As I walked into the Hufflepuff common room, I saw a large ornaint fire plaice on one side giving the room a warm and cozy feel.  I thought for the hundredth time that who ever designed this comfortable, relaxing plaice must have been a geous.  The walls were of a deep mohogany polished over centuris to a lustrous sheen.  Hanging gracefully over dimend paned windows, gold velvit curtens, embroydered richly with gold thread and decerated with long tasells, fell to the floor.  Illuminating the room, several candels, filled with unwavering magical flame, hung from the cealing; a painting of Helga Hufflepuff wispered ceaselessly to its self, and a grandfather clock ticked in one corner.  A number of plush chairs were clusterd round a low table set with strawbery tarts and coucanut pasterys over which several botles of butter bear stood like watchful out posts over the rest of the meal.  Students back from the quiditch game were sellibrating loudly over this stout repast, while others were studiding inifectively in a cold corner.  Several black cats were scufling under the table while owners were desperately trying to seperate them, but the felines still had anough time for a strong paw and a playful slap.

 

 By Washington Irving

As we drove into the great gateway of the inn, I saw on one side the
light of a rousing kitchen fire beaming through a window. I entered
and admired, for the hundredth time, that picture of convenience,
neatness, and broad honest enjoyment, the kitchen of an English inn.
It was of spacious dimensions, hung round with copper and tin vessels
highly polished, and decorated here and there with a Christmas green.
Hams, tongues, and flitches of bacon were suspended from the
ceiling;a smoke jack made its ceaseless clanking beside the fire-
place, and a clock ticked in one corner. A well-scoured deal table
extended along one side of the kitchen, with a cold round of beef and
other hearty viands upon it, over which two foaming tankards of ale
seemed mounting guard. Travelers of inferior order were preparing to
attack this stout repast, while others sat smoking and gossiping over
their ale on two high-backed oaken Fettles beside the fire. Trim
housemaids were hurrying backward and forward under the directions of
a fresh, bustling landlady; but still seizing an occasional moment to
exchange a flippant word and have a rallying laugh with the group
round the fire.

 

 

So, I think he has some serious composition talent.  He was working quite closely to copy the structure of the example paragraph, but the style he displayed on this assignment is very typical of all of his writing as long as I don't ask him to write fast.

 

Some background:

1) I am a poor speller and my older son is too.  My older son is now pretty reliant on spell check but is getting better bit by bit.

2) My younger son does not really like to put pen to paper, so I have gotten him typing, but he is not fast yet.  And the typing does not seem to have made writing any easier.

3) Because ds does not like to write (as in physically or typing. He loves composition), I have taken Andrew Putawa's (of IEW fame) advice to do spelling orally. I think that this is possibly the problem. 

4) We have mostly used SWR, but not as written because it was just too laborious for ds.  He has learned all the rules, phonograms, syllabification, and we are now working our way through the words, but orally.

5) We had a big push 6 months ago to make sure that ds knew the top 1000 words, and I have continued to review review review.  I have a massive list and we retest and relearn words every term.

6) He likes me to sit with him and act as his dictionary, which I don't like doing because I think it makes him lazy.  But then I think, how in the world is he supposed to spell some of these very large words?  He gets so frustrated trying to sound them out that he then loses what he was trying to say.  . 

7) I have trying dictation too, and he is fine with it, although he still can't spell a lot of words even with the reduced mental load (not having to hold his ideas in his head). We used Spelling Wisdom for a while, which is studied dictation for spelling instruction.  It went well until the passages got too long and he did not want to write them.

 

So here are my questions:

1) Is he actually a grade-level speller for the most part, but because he is using such large words, it just looks like he is a poor speller?

2) Do you think that it is worth the fight to get him to start writing down spelling words rather than me drilling him orally?  (and it would be a very large fight)

3) Do you think that even though I am not seeing his spelling translate into his writing, that it is likely to come with maturity?

4) Is there a way to make he writing less frustrating while he learns to spell?  Even if he uses spell check, it just slows him down so much!

5) Ok, last question, he probably only writes about 75- 100 words a day (in all subjects, he does Latin, history, science orally. He does write mandarin characters but not with pleasure ).  Do you think I need to just up the writing across the curriculum, ( in sneaky ways like labelling diagrams, or making flow charts, or writing latin translations etc) as a way of improving his spelling?  or do you think this is not likely the problem?

6) Ok, one more: Should I switch back to Spelling Wisdom to encourage both a large quantity of actual writing and the integration of spelling knowledge into his writing?

 

Well, that was a very long book, so if you got to the bottom and have any advice for a child who passionately loves to compose but just can't get it down, I would be very appreciative.

 

Ruth in NZ

 

ETA: for additional detail see post 3.

 

[Incognito]

Does he know that he is spelling the words wrong (know he is guessing), or does he think he has them right?  Perhaps you could get him to underline the words he is spelling but is unsure if he has spelled them right, in order to get an idea of how much the issue is about him in a rush to get things down and how much is him really not realizing the spelling rules.

 

Could you take a spelling rule you see needs work (wispered, for instance), and find lots of instances of the wh - dig into the dictionary at wh - make up a book about wh words, create you-tube videos for other kids to learn the "wh" words, etc.?  Find various ways to make specific rules stand out in his mind, so they stick.

 

What would happen if you went through the story with him and re-did the spelling right after he finished?  What happens when he types on the computer and he sees the red lines under the words?  

 

I am not as far on our journey, but Sequential Spelling on a whiteboard has been a positive experience for us in helping the kids see patterns in spelling (all the "ould" words, for instance).  Something like that might be helpful.

 

For your questions:

1) Is he actually a grade-level speller for the most part, but because he is using such large words, it just looks like he is a poor speller? 

I don't know officially, but I do think some of the words he misspelled (whispered, enough, curtains, candles, and more of them) would generally not be an issue for a 10yo.

2) Do you think that it is worth the fight to get him to start writing down spelling words rather than me drilling him orally?  (and it would be a very large fight)

Sorry, no idea, but I would think something besides oral spelling would be worthwhile to try.

3) Do you think that even though I am not seeing his spelling translate into his writing, that it is likely to come with maturity?

I don't know.

4) Is there a way to make he writing less frustrating while he learns to spell?  Even if he uses spell check, it just slows him down so much! 

Could you make him watch you as you write what he says?  Could you have him then re-copy this writing?

5) Ok, last question, he probably only writes about 75- 100 words a day (in all subjects, he does Latin, history, science orally. He does write mandarin characters but not with pleasure ).  Do you think I need to just up the writing across the curriculum, ( in sneaky ways like labelling diagrams, or making flow charts, or writing latin translations etc) as a way of improving his spelling?  or do you think this is not likely the problem?

He is getting older, so either teaching him how to type more or getting him to write more will give him the ability to express himself in ways he can't right now -if he can push his way through the struggle of it.  Has he learned cursive?  Perhaps couching it in learning that skill would be helpful?  Cursive that just happens to be words he needs practice spelling? :)

6) Ok, one more: Should I switch back to Spelling Wisdom to encourage both a large quantity of actual writing and the integration of spelling knowledge into his writing?

I'm not familiar with the program.

[lewelma]

Thank you so much for your insight!
 

Does he know that he is spelling the words wrong (know he is guessing), or does he think he has them right?  Perhaps you could get him to underline the words he is spelling but is unsure if he has spelled them right, in order to get an idea of how much the issue is about him in a rush to get things down and how much is him really not realizing the spelling rules.

Oh, he knows they are wrong, that is why he is so frustrated. He is a really really strong reader, so he has seen the words and recognizes they are wrong. All of the misspelled words *were* underlined (and a few others that were right).
 

Could you take a spelling rule you see needs work (wispered, for instance), and find lots of instances of the wh - dig into the dictionary at wh - make up a book about wh words, create you-tube videos for other kids to learn the "wh" words, etc.?  Find various ways to make specific rules stand out in his mind, so they stick.

Good idea. We have been working on this and came up with an 'ie' saying for every word we could find: 'as long as you believe and shriek, the priest will bring brief relief and a shield to the siege on the field'. We thought it was pretty clever. But perhaps we need to do this more often. The problem is that he has to go through the entire saying to check the word and then he has lost track of what he is trying to write!
 

What would happen if you went through the story with him and re-did the spelling right after he finished?  What happens when he types on the computer and he sees the red lines under the words?

I try to do the words after he has finished, but it is just so discouraging. He has the typical gifted perfectionism and feels defeated when he realises that all those words are spelled wrong. When there are red underlines, he fixes them but once again it seems to distract him from the content he is trying to write and then he forgets what he is trying to say.

I have tried to scribe for him, but it just seems to make the times when he is do the actual writing seem that much more painful. So I have stopped scribing. Not sure if that is good or bad.
 

I am not as far on our journey, but Sequential Spelling on a whiteboard has been a positive experience for us in helping the kids see patterns in spelling (all the "ould" words, for instance).  Something like that might be helpful.

*I know*!!! I had levels 1 and 2 and just went looking for them last night and I must have sold them a few years ago! Might have to buy them again. I gave it up when he was so very frustrated with writing. I was persuaded that oral spelling would be equal if not better. Did you use a large hanging white board? or just a little one on the desk?
 

Could you make him watch you as you write what he says?  Could you have him then re-copy this writing?

I have considered this in the light of SWB's idea that you only do one hard thing at a time.
 

Has he learned cursive?  Perhaps couching it in learning that skill would be helpful?  Cursive that just happens to be words he needs practice spelling? :)

I have decided against it. We are still trying to maintain the tidiness of his print and I am very hesitant to start cursive. Plus, cursive is no longer taught here, so doubly hesitant. But thanks for the idea.
 

Ok, one more: Should I switch back to Spelling Wisdom to encourage both a large quantity of actual writing and the integration of spelling knowledge into his writing?

 

I'm not familiar with the program.

Oh, it is just studied dictation. The author has found cool quotes from famous authors that incorporate the top 5000 words. So NOT word lists or phonics, but rather studying words from quotes, and then quizzing the words by way of dictation.

Thanks so much for you thoughts!

[8filltheheart]

I have some horrid spellers. My 2 actually had spelling as a subject up through high school. (I think my 3rd grader is unfortunately following their path.) Only consistent spelling lessons ever improved their spelling long term, though my just graduated from high school ds still spells horribly.

 

As incognito pointed out, many of the words should not be issue for a 10 yr old. When you know what is normal, it is much easier to identify what is not.

 

If he has never had explicit spelling instruction, I do think it would be a good idea.

 

Fwiw, I make my kids write double spaced. When I work with them on proofreading their writing, all misspelled words are circled. If they are words they should know how to spell, I expect them to look them up in a dictionary or simply fix them. (Reading their writing backward from end to beginning so they are focusing in the words vs their writing is a simple technique that has helped my kids pick up a lot of their misspellings on their own.) If they are words that as so horribly misspelled that they couldn't even begin to use a dictionary to figure out the spelling, I will get them started on the correct spelling.

 

Fwiw, studied dictation would never work for teaching my poor spelling kids how to spell. They need direct, explicit spelling instruction. And simply giving them the correct spelling leaves them with the lazy habit of not worrying about putting in the extra effort to spell correctly in the first place. 10/11 is about the age I do expect the burden to start shifting from me and on to them for serious effort in correcting their spelling. (My rising 3rd grader will not be taking the above approach bc it is not what I think is appropriate for 3rd grade bc I do not want her to limit herself to using simple words. But there is a huge difference between 8 and 10/11.)

[Clear Creek]

I can tell you what I do with my 10yo (a talented writer and storyteller who is a horrible speller). I make her do a rules-based spelling program; she fights it because she hates the physical act of writing, but I refuse to give in on this because she really needs it, and it really helps her. On top of that, I write down all the words she misses on an oral pre-test of her spelling words at the beginning of the week and all the words she misspelled (and should have been able to spell) from anything she wrote for school on index cards every week. I write them in black marker with the corrected spelling in red marker; this seems to imprint the corrected spelling in her mind as she reviews the cards each day. For example, using your son's composition I would have written "ornate," "place," "century, centuries," "velvet," "curtain," "decorate," etc., leaving out words that I would not have expected her to be able to spell at that age like diamond and genius.  I don't add the extra words to her weekly spelling test; I just go through the stack every Friday and have her orally spell the words...any words she gets correct get tossed, the words she still misspells stay in the stack for another week. At any given time she will have 15-40 words in her stack. It sounds like a lot, but it only takes her a few minutes to review them each day. Her writing showed a vast improvement in her spelling over the last year or so as we have been doing this.

 

I also work with my daughter on the correct pronounciation of a word; often that is why it is misspelled. She would have spelled velvet and enough the same as your son because that is how she pronounces the words.

 

I still struggle with being her human dictionary, though. Since we are doing a rules-based spelling program, I try to give her the rule for the correct spelling as I spell a word for her (if I can remember the rule, lol).

[Tracy]

I understand wanting to avoid writing.  I have a dd9 who is pretty writing averse.  Unfortunately, if he doesn't write his spelling words, then you are giving up one of the ways to cement the spelling into his mind.  Have you considered doing SWR with large-motor writing?  A white board, perhaps?  Or even a salt box?  I like the arrangement of SWR words in which you don't see similarly spelled words in the same list, but then you "collect" similarly spelled words from different lists into reference pages.  It is a good way to study the patterns of the language without having a "crutch" for the spelling test that one will not have during composition.  The think-to-spell method is very effective for my student.  Many words just have to be memorized.  And if you are following the normal SWR dictation procedure, then the student is repeating a word's think-to-spell pronunciation 5 times in a day, including once while he is writing it, and once while he watches you write it.  

 

My dd9 is not at all a natural speller, but I can see a huge difference when I stick to SWR.  She generally goes up one entire grade level in the first 3-4 months of school in the fall.  It is sometimes hard to justify the time required, but when she can spell at or above grade level, it makes all the other language arts easier, composition in particular.  And for a writing averse student, making it easier is very valuable.  I have been known to give chocolate as a reward for doing spelling with a good attitude.   :D

[Incognito]

Whiteboards - my kids have their own lap ones, and I have a small one from one of those kid play box things that pops up so it makes an easel (so they can see what I write while I write it).  But it would work easily with just having small ones and sitting next to one another, if you wanted to use them.

[Tanikit]

Some of his spelling errors in that passage seem to come from not knowing what the word is - "ornate" for example in a child spelling phonetically should never be spelled as he did - so perhaps getting him to first read aloud what he has written may clue you in here to which words he is unsure of (from a vocabulary perspective). (Same with genius, dimmed and a few others) He should know phonetically that a word such as plaice/place cannot have an ai since it ends in a silent E - this is a phonics problem - I would fix this one from both angles (phonics and sight) since it is in the list of very common words.

 

He is also tending to separate words when they should be single words - you could perhaps do a list of these words and explain why they are singular words (whoever, itself) and he may need work on its and it's though this is taught around the age your son is and is perfectly age appropriate.

 

When to double consonants is also a common problem with many young spellers - it is more easily taught than I realised though if he can do syllabification - because your child is writing with so many elaborate words I would go and teach him syllabification and the rules regarding spelling in this regard (doubling consonants when the vowel sound is short to prevent an open syllable which makes the vowel sound long).

 

An enormous amount of the errors he is making are basic phonetical errors - he read early I am betting :) so this is also normal, but they can easily be taught - and then you probably would have to hover while he writes and remind him of the phonics rules that he is forgetting (pastries cannot end in ys - y changes to ies, past tense endings are always "ed", ou is not an option for the long O sound, it says "ow" or "oo" and so on, words that end in the "il" sound usually end in le (tassles and candle).)

 

His spelling however is not bad considering what he is writing and the words he is choosing to use, however it can be improved with attention to some very small and easy "rules" - these are not rule breaking weird words that he is misspelling, they are just long and complicated vocabulary.

 

Writing lots does not improve spelling - in fact it can make it worse if he continues to repeat his errors. I would still probably increase his output for other reasons though, but would maybe include spelling dictation that follows patterns and addresses concepts to increase it a small amount and hope that ease with spelling will lead to greater output later then I would recheck later and try something else if this wasn't working.

 

 

[lewelma]

Thanks everyone.  I have read and re-read everyone's responses. 

 

Just to clarify, ds had not proof read the above sample.  I was just so shocked that I thought to post it as is. I will get him to proof read this piece today and see which words he can fix on his own and post that later today.

 

The main problem is not that he does not know the phonetic rules, he does. It is just that when he is writing at speed, he can't seem to sound a word out (or remember the ending rule) and still remember what he wants to get down.  He can't just ignore spelling, get it down, and then go back and clean it up, because he knows the words are wrong and it is very distracting and discouraging.  He likes me to help him both remember what he was going to say, and to help him spell the words.  When he dreams up the beautiful style, he has it in a special way, and hates it when it POOF disappears while he is trying to get it down.

 

So far what it sounds like I need to do is:

1) do SWR as written.  sigh.  I did this with my older and know what to do.  It is just very laborious.

2) I like the idea of the cards with the red mis-spelled parts

3) Make him take responsibility for proofreading, and have him look up the mis-spelled words in the dictionary (or online dictionary).

 

 

My next questions are about how to deal with the asynchrony.

 

1) Should I get him to record his ideas and play them back while he writes, so he can write slower, with better spelling, and without stress?

 

2) Should I have a separate writing assignment each week that I scribe for him, so he can improve/enjoy his composition skills while the spelling catches up?  This would be in addition, not in place of, his current writing assignment each week.

 

3) His memory is strong (he learned 25 lines of Shakespeare in 5 minutes), but it seems to fall apart when writing.  How can I help him improve his ability to hold his ideas in his head, so he has time to concurrently think about spelling when he is writing things down?

 

4) Should I encourage  him to use a less flowery style as a means to making the transcription onto paper easier?

 

Thanks for any additional thoughts,

 

 

 

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Every now and then I turn unschooly, and I feel just such a moment coming on.

 

His writing is so good, Ruth. You said you know his composition is truly special. Please don't even consider holding back his progression there just to try to help him use words he can spell.

 

I would teach him to type, and then let him do his writing in Microsoft Student Word. Teach him that there is no such thing as a written piece that does not get revised -- he may write it as it comes to him, but then he must address all the red-squiggled lines. He may look them up in an online dictionary or an app and then correct them in his document.

 

The effect is exactly the same as if you circled all the mistakes on real paper in red pencil and made him look up the correct spellings in a hardback Webster's dictionary, but the typing/Word method is a zillion times easier on the student.

 

A friend who is a former ps teacher and long-time homeschooler, whose daughter has autism, began to use this method after years of spelling instruction failed. Her daughter's ability to spell correctly advanced so incredibly quickly that she was sorry she hadn't tried it earlier.

 

She put it to me this way: "I thought it was 'giving in' to let her type and then correct the marked words after consulting an online dictionary, but it was actually what I should have done all along. Doing it all by hand, the word was lost from her mind during the steps and nothing sank in even though she'd eventually get the right spelling down on paper. It was too many steps, done too slowly. On the computer, she was through the steps before she forgot what she was doing, and then her excellent memory kicked in and retained that spelling."

 

[Tracy]

The main problem is not that he does not know the phonetic rules, he does. It is just that when he is writing at speed, he can't seem to sound a word out (or remember the ending rule) and still remember what he wants to get down.  He can't just ignore spelling, get it down, and then go back and clean it up, because he knows the words are wrong and it is very distracting and discouraging.  He likes me to help him both remember what he was going to say, and to help him spell the words.  When he dreams up the beautiful style, he has it in a special way, and hates it when it POOF disappears while he is trying to get it down.

 

First of all, I think that this is quite developmentally normal, even for a NT 10yo.  I remember reading in TWTM that you should not expect spelling be applied in composition until 4th grade.  So I think it is safe to say that the issue would tend to be even worse for a gifted child whose vocabulary and composition skills are well above grade level.  

 

I have actually talked about this directly to my dd9, explaining that what is in her head is way ahead of her output abilities.  I try to show her the big picture and how we are going to get there.  As much as she hates SWR, she does see that it is one key to bringing her output level up to her mental composition level.  And when she is writing and asks me how to spell something, we always, always think-to-spell and use phonograms and not letter names.  Yes, it can be laborious, but her mind must be trained to think in sounds and not in letters.  And IMO, a poor speller who is resistant to doing this is resisting because it is hard, and he really needs it all the more.

 

 

My next questions are about how to deal with the asynchrony.

 

1) Should I get him to record his ideas and play them back while he writes, so he can write slower, with better spelling, and without stress?

 

2) Should I have a separate writing assignment each week that I scribe for him, so he can improve/enjoy his composition skills while the spelling catches up?  This would be in addition, not in place of, his current writing assignment each week.

 

3) His memory is strong (he learned 25 lines of Shakespeare in 5 minutes), but it seems to fall apart when writing.  How can I help him improve his ability to hold his ideas in his head, so he has time to concurrently think about spelling when he is writing things down?

 

4) Should I encourage  him to use a less flowery style as a means to making the transcription onto paper easier?

 

Thanks for any additional thoughts,

 

I think that you are on the right track by separating spelling and composition.  Recording is one very good way to do that.  You could also scribe for him.  You might consider getting him some dictation software.  At any rate, I would not have him do any writing where he would be spelling a lot of things wrong, because that will tend to work against his spelling instruction.  

 

It is also normal for memory to fall apart while writing.  There is so much to remember!  Dictation is a very good way to improve memory while writing.  Of course, if he spells everything wrong, then that will not work.  I have used WWE with good results.  I would write the words that I thought she would have trouble spelling at the bottom of the page so she wouldn't practice spelling errors.  You could utilize the dictation sentences provided in the SWR Wise Guide.  Or you might try studied dictation.  

 

Please do not try to change his writing style for the sake of convenience!  Do your best to separate those skills, and when he is ready to put them together, he will be an awesome writer.  

 

I remember reading a post (or probably several) by OhElizabeth talking about meeting your child where he is at with regard to writing.  She talked about how her 8th grader was flying through WWS and getting so much out of it.  It has taken a lot for me to internalize that (and I am still working on it).  But it is so freeing for both mom and student when you stop trying to get him to do grade-level assignments, and just let him fly with his strengths while buttressing those weaknesses.  

[lewelma]

His writing is so good, Ruth. You said you know his composition is truly special.

It seems pretty special to me, but I am the mother. My dh particularly liked the sounds in this part: "a painting of Helga Hufflepuff wispered ceaselessly to its self."  First, the painting was only whispering to itself, and then he said 'oh, how about adding ceaselessly.'  I'm thinking, how does he come up with this stuff?  And then putting it after whispered was a stroke of genius in my eyes.  But I'm no writing expert, and have not had a proper first child guinea pig because my older boy writes 2-page long math proofs each week, rather than much english writing. :tongue_smilie:

 

Please don't even consider holding back his progression there just to try to help him use words he can spell.

I don't think I should.  But all of the posts so far have been very in-the-box suggestions and have not dealt with what I consider a very serious asynchrony.  So I was starting to think that maybe the asynchrony is not as great as I thought, and standard solutions were what I needed to implement.

 

I would teach him to type, and then let him do his writing in Microsoft Student Word. Teach him that there is no such thing as a written piece that does not get revised -- he may write it as it comes to him, but then he must address all the red-squiggled lines. He may look them up in an online dictionary or an app and then correct them in his document.

 

The effect is exactly the same as if you circled all the mistakes on real paper in red pencil and made him look up the correct spellings in a hardback Webster's dictionary, but the typing/Word method is a zillion times easier on the student.

 

A friend who is a former ps teacher and long-time homeschooler, whose daughter has autism, began to use this method after years of spelling instruction failed. Her daughter's ability to spell correctly advanced so incredibly quickly that she was sorry she hadn't tried it earlier.

 

She put it to me this way: "I thought it was 'giving in' to let her type and then correct the marked words after consulting an online dictionary, but it was actually what I should have done all along. Doing it all by hand, the word was lost from her mind during the steps and nothing sank in even though she'd eventually get the right spelling down on paper. It was too many steps, done too slowly. On the computer, she was through the steps before she forgot what she was doing, and then her excellent memory kicked in and retained that spelling."

I think this is what I started to do this term. He is now typing up his essays. But then I found that he was using the spell check drop-down box and grabbing the right spelling. He reads so much (did you see my thread a few weeks ago?), that he knows the right spelling when he sees it. So I have not been clear this term on his spelling progression, because basically it has been hidden from me. So I had him do this last paragraph by hand, which is when I had a small freak out.

 

So did your friend turn off the drop-down boxes, and have the kid look up the red-underlined words in google and then re-type them in? Or are you saying just use the drop-down box and pick the right word, click it, and be done?

 

Thanks so much for your ideas!

[Lang Syne Boardie]

My friend's dd had to look up the word each time, I believe. You know, I don't think her daughter did recognize the correct spelling on sight, so I'm not sure if it's the same "fix" at all. That's a pretty significant difference! I'm sorry!

 

I thought Tracy's point was excellent about children not being expected to thoroughly integrate all their language arts skills into their writing yet, at this stage. Also, her theory about children who are very advanced in vocabulary and expression looking VERY asynchronous if their spelling is a bit behind, when really the gap might be wide but the spelling might not be as bad as you think -- that was sound, IMO.

 

But if it that's all so, then there is no reason not to continue as you are, working on spelling with materials that ought to help, and letting him write in his own style, and just give it some more time.

 

I wish I could have been more helpful. I can say that I'm always here waiting to read any of his writing because his style is delightful. :)

[lewelma]

First of all, I think that this is quite developmentally normal, even for a NT 10yo.  I remember reading in TWTM that you should not expect spelling be applied in composition until 4th grade.  So I think it is safe to say that the issue would tend to be even worse for a gifted child whose vocabulary and composition skills are well above grade level.

I agree.  I remember reading that in TWTM which is why I was asking if his work is grade level.  He spelling level in SWR is grade level when spelling is a separate subject, but it is just not going into his writing, which is why I started to think that I needed to do something else.

 

I have actually talked about this directly to my dd9, explaining that what is in her head is way ahead of her output abilities.  I try to show her the big picture and how we are going to get there.  As much as she hates SWR, she does see that it is one key to bringing her output level up to her mental composition level.  And when she is writing and asks me how to spell something, we always, always think-to-spell and use phonograms and not letter names.  Yes, it can be laborious, but her mind must be trained to think in sounds and not in letters.  And IMO, a poor speller who is resistant to doing this is resisting because it is hard, and he really needs it all the more.

 

 I consider it nothing short of a miracle that SWR cleaned up my older ds's spelling issues.  He learned how to read young, when he had a very bad speech impediment, so he actually mapped the wrong sounds to the letters.  He would spell 'cat' as 'ced' and stuff like that.  I was willing to do the SWR work because clearly he needed it.  So with my younger who is just so much more language artsy and whose spelling at a younger age was just so much better than older ds, I only implemented SWR half way and kept thinking that the spelling would eventually catch up. Sounds like I made a mistake in this assessment. sigh.  He is also very stubborn.  So I really might have to bribe him with chocolate or something.  I'm going to have to think of a great way to sell it, or I will have rebellion.  :( 

 

 

At any rate, I would not have him do any writing where he would be spelling a lot of things wrong, because that will tend to work against his spelling instruction.

Can you expand on this, please. One thing I have done is have him orally compose while I write all the hard words down for him to use. Is this what you are suggesting? The main problem with this is that it ends up being an outline for him and a memory aid, so I quit.  But maybe it is a good thing.  Do only one hard thing at a time, right? 

 

Or are you saying, I should type up his compositions, and have him only actually write down easier dictation passages to keep the spelling in line with his transcription skills?

 

It is also normal for memory to fall apart while writing.  There is so much to remember!  Dictation is a very good way to improve memory while writing.  Of course, if he spells everything wrong, then that will not work.  I have used WWE with good results.  I would write the words that I thought she would have trouble spelling at the bottom of the page so she wouldn't practice spelling errors.  You could utilize the dictation sentences provided in the SWR Wise Guide.  Or you might try studied dictation.

I'm thinking some sort of dictation 2x per week would be good, and I like the idea of writing the difficult words at the bottom.

 

and just let him fly with his strengths while buttressing those weaknesses.

yes. I have done this with my older, and I want to do it with my younger.  But it is much harder with my younger.

[8filltheheart]

I don't think it is asynchrony, myself. It seems like very normal 10/11 yr old mistakes to me. Kids think faster than they write. They use words they do not know how to spell. They often experiment with big words when they don't quite grasp the correct definition. They use sentence structures that are sometimes awkward bc they are attempting to express a complex thought and can't quite wrap their mind around how to rephrase it.

 

I never compare the "how eloquent does it sound" in generic terms bc kids at this age are all over the place. I tend to focus on getting them to improve their own set of skills. Mechanics and spelling are completely different skills than style. Some 10 yr olds express themselves very well. Some write stilted, choppy sentences. They are where they are.

 

The major way to improve spelling that you did not include in your list is to read the composition backward from end to beginning. If forces them to slow down and focus on each word vs. the next thought.

[lewelma]

Different question.  He is learning mandarin and latin, both of which use the latin script but with the sounds mapping differently to the letters than in english (very differently for pinyin in mandarin).  His mandarin tutor is having him focus on characters rather than the pinyin, so I am thinking that I should make sure it continues that way.  And right now ds is doing latin orally, and maybe it should stay that way until his english spelling is set.

 

Any opinions on this?

[lewelma]

The major way to improve spelling that you did not include in your list is to read the composition backward from end to beginning. If forces them to slow down and focus on each word vs. the next thought.

 

But 8, he *can* see which words are wrong.  He has underlined all of them as he went.

 

The problem is not proof reading, the problem is getting down his ideas while being completely distracted by trying to spell words he cannot spell.

 

[8filltheheart]

I didn't realize he was stopping while he was writing. Why not simply tell him to underline the words he is unsure of and keep writing and revisit them when he is doing his revising and editing? All writing needs to be revised. (As I am avoiding doing to my writing curriculum by responding to you! ;) ) Simply making a note to himself that it needs to be addressed later is fine.

 

If he thinks a rough draft is a final copy, I would start there.

[lewelma]

Yes, this is what I am doing. When he writes on paper he underlines as he goes, but when he types it is a bit harder because either the spell check is on and the words already identified, or it is off and he can't easily underline as he goes.  Perhaps a star or something next to the word would work.

 

But I think you are saying just do the same stuff I am doing - spelling program, writing assignments, and proofreading.  And it will all come together in the end. You've done this way more than I have, so I know your advice is sound.

 

I think my main take away from you is that I need to require him to take more personal responsibility for the writing and proofreading process.  He still wants me to sit next to him to be available to help, and I think this is making him much more reliant on me.  I'm having a hard time knowing what is teaching/scaffolding vs what is hand holding in all the aspects of the writing process -- interpreting the question, outlining the piece, composing, getting it down, and proof reading. 

[Chrysalis Academy]

Ruth, I just wanted to say that he reminds me of Shannon in the beginning of 5th grade - a really quite lovely writer, but an atrocious speller.  I did make her go through a rule-based spelling program, we did LOE, the spelling part only, and used the advanced word list.  It was incredibly helpful, because it gave us a language/vocabulary to use to talk about spelling, so that if she asked me how to spell something, I could talk to her in terms of phonograms/rules, and she really did seem to start figuring out how to apply the logic of the spelling rules herself.  I don't think there is anything magical about LOE, but I think a phonogram-based spelling program can really help.

 

I did not try to limit her writing to what she could spell, but I do circle misspelled words on assignments and expect her to correct them.  But this is during the editing phase, never during the drafting phase. 

 

It's also partly developmental - the leap in skills, maturity, and the ability to put together all the separate pieces was absolutely huge between 10 and 11.  I couldn't have predicted that, but some things that seemed so hard at 10 are so easy at 11.

 

We still do spelling, but we do it low-key, once a week.  We are using How To Teach Spelling, which is phonogram/rules based, but the spelling dictation is in sentences, which is, IMO, a much better test of spelling abilities than isolated word lists.  We'll go over the rule in the lesson, and I'll dictate the sentences.  If she misses any words, we'll talk about why and what rule is applicable.  It's not a test, it's learning - it's connecting the spelling of new words to the spelling rules/words she already knows.  She is constructing her own knowledge of spelling in an organic way.  I suspect we'll need to keep doing this for quite awhile, but I'm happy with the progress we're making so far.

 

So I don't think it's terribly unusual, I don't think it's the end of the world, I think it's partly developmental, but I also think that really working through a phonics-based spelling program will make a big differences.  Sometime in the next year.  ;)

 

But for sure, make sure he keeps writing!  

[Tracy]

Can you expand on this, please. One thing I have done is have him orally compose while I write all the hard words down for him to use. Is this what you are suggesting? The main problem with this is that it ends up being an outline for him and a memory aid, so I quit.  But maybe it is a good thing.  Do only one hard thing at a time, right? 

 

If he is doing a lot of independent writing, then he is going to be spelling a lot of things wrong.  The more he writes the wrong spelling, the more apt he will be to continue to use the incorrect spelling.  Well, at least I have seen this with my dd.  If I get lax about making sure she knows how to spell something before she writes it down, then I will surely be remediating that wrongly spelled word for the next year.  

 

My dd doesn't write as much as your ds.  (She is quite happy having it all in her head at the moment.)  But I think if I were in your place, I would try dictation software.  That way, he could get it all down and really focus on his style without being encumbered by spelling and mechanics.  Meanwhile, I would do spelling, dictation and narration separately.  I know we haven't spoken about narration yet in this thread, but it occurs to me that written narrations are where the student begins to put together all of the broken-down writing skills.  For the sake of simplicity, you could do all of that with SWR.  Or you could do a combination of SWR (spelling only) and WWE (narration/dictation).  I did the SWR/WWE combination with dd9, because the sentences she came up with using her spelling words were always way too long for her to write.  I am trying to go with the straight SWR with my ds6, who doesn't have the asynchronous writing issues that my dd9 had.  

 

Or are you saying, I should type up his compositions, and have him only actually write down easier dictation passages to keep the spelling in line with his transcription skills?

 

 

Yes, exactly.  You scribe for him, or use dictation software.  If you want to tailor the dictation to his spelling ability, then use the dictation passages provided in the SWR Wise Guide.  But if you want interesting dictation sentences, then WWE might be a better choice.  

 

Another possibility is that after you scribe for him (or use the dictation software), you could use his own composition as a studied dictation.  But you would only use 1-2 sentences rather than making him write the whole thing.  

[lewelma]

Thinking about independence and responsibility brought me back to the problem I mentioned upstream.  He gets so distracted with the spelling that he forgets what he was going to say.  And I do think that this is possibly a problem with the flowery style.  If I don't sit with him to either help with spelling so he can remember the content, or help him remember the content so he can focus on the spelling, then he can't write to the same standard.  Which is why I suggested upstream to sacrifice the style/content to help him develop independence.

 

Rose and Tracy, we were writing at the same time.  Will need to think about your ideas in context of the above issue.  Give me a moment.

[Tracy]

Different question.  He is learning mandarin and latin, both of which use the latin script but with the sounds mapping differently to the letters than in english (very differently for pinyin in mandarin).  His mandarin tutor is having him focus on characters rather than the pinyin, so I am thinking that I should make sure it continues that way.  And right now ds is doing latin orally, and maybe it should stay that way until his english spelling is set.

 

Any opinions on this?

 

Perhaps depends on how well he knows his English phonograms.  If he has known them well for a long time, then I don't see a problem with learning Latin.  OTOH, maybe learning Latin spelling will help with his English spelling.  Tough call to make.  

[Tracy]

Thinking about independence and responsibility brought me back to the problem I mentioned upstream.  He gets so distracted with the spelling that he forgets what he was going to say.  And I do think that this is possibly a problem with the flowery style.  If I don't sit with him to either help with spelling so he can remember the content, or help him remember the content so he can focus on the spelling, then he can't write to the same standard.  Which is why I suggested upstream to sacrifice the style/content to help him develop independence.

 

If you want him to be independent, then try dictation software.  It kind of makes me cringe to think of messing with his writing style.   :tongue_smilie:

[Chrysalis Academy]

Thinking about independence and responsibility brought me back to the problem I mentioned upstream.  He gets so distracted with the spelling that he forgets what he was going to say.  And I do think that this is possibly a problem with the flowery style.  If I don't sit with him to either help with spelling so he can remember the content, or help him remember the content so he can focus on the spelling, then he can't write to the same standard.  Which is why I suggested upstream to sacrifice the style/content to help him develop independence.

 

Rose and Tracy, we were writing at the same time.  Will need to think about your ideas in context of the above issue.  Give me a moment.

 

Morgan has this exact same problem, and it does worry me some.  She'd write a lot more, and a lot more eloquently, if she wasn't so dang worried about her spelling.  But she's 8, so I have to trust that the combination of doing a spelling program -we are doing both LOE and How To Teach Spelling - practicing the mechanics of writing via copywork & dictation, and me scribing for her on more complex writing assignments will eventually get her past this.  But I do know what you mean, and if she were still really holding herself back from writing at 10 the way she is now, I would be where you are, trying to figure out what to do differently.

[8filltheheart]

Does he actually do extensive revisions and rewriting of a final copy? If he doesn't, he might be under the impression he has to get everything correct immediately. Knowing that we can make notes to ourselves with notations for rewording, checking spelling, missing info, etc might give him the freedom to not obsess over an initial writing. Walking away from a piece with our notes to ourselves gives us the mental permission to think things through and come back with the perspective of tackling known issues.

 

Eta: Does he ever do a simple outline before writing? If he used an outline, he could just jot down brief notes as he is thinking vs writing out complete sentences. This does help them keep their thoughts flowing.

Edited July 5, 2014 by 8FillTheHeart

[Alte Veste Academy]

He gets so distracted with the spelling that he forgets what he was going to say. And I do think that this is possibly a problem with the flowery style. If I don't sit with him to either help with spelling so he can remember the content, or help him remember the content so he can focus on the spelling, then he can't write to the same standard. Which is why I suggested upstream to sacrifice the style/content to help him develop independence.

I agree that that the bolded is the problem. I don't so much think the flowery style is his problem. It seems he has a hang-up about spelling. Is he self conscious about it? Does it embarrass him? Why is he so bothered by not knowing how to spell a word that ideas are forced out of his head? Spelling, the bully of writing. :tongue_smilie:

 

I would make it crystal clear to him that his ideas and his command of language are 99% of good writing, and that knowing how to spell is but one aspect of the remaining 1%. Making sure the final draft is free of misspelled words is important; making sure the words get onto the page perfectly spelled the first time is entirely irrelevant. Entirely. Perfectly expressed? Important, if nearly impossible. But perfectly spelled? Not important, a matter of simple editing.

 

In your shoes, I would try to force him over the hump. I would have him write and tell him to stop thinking. I would forbid him to think about spelling while he is writing. I would praise his writing and make sure he knows the difference (in his heart, not just his mind) between writing and mechanics.

 

When I am writing, I will frequently get the beginning of the sentence, hate the middle, and love the end. I go with it, knowing the middle is junk. I think of it as a place holder. I get it down, and at some point (maybe when I am entirely finished with whatever it is), I go fix the middle. If I can power through bad writing, surely he can power through good writing that just happens to have some (well chosen) misspelled words? :D LOL Sometimes, a thought comes to me and I LOVE it, so I hit return and type it out. It may be completely hanging out there for a long while, unused, in all its glorious perfection, LOL, but who cares?! I captured that thought before it flew away! I dismember sentences too. I am quite vicious with my words. :tongue_smilie:

 

Honestly, at age 10, I don't see this so much as a problem of asynchrony as a problem with his perception of the importance of spelling relative to writing. Just to be clear, I do not mean to minimize the problem of spelling causing him to lose focus. I just think maybe the cure is a 180 in perspective and some serious confidence in his (most excellent) 99%.

[lewelma]

Thanks for the words of wisdom AVA.  I do stress to him that it does not matter how it goes down in the draft.  But it is a fight every. single. day.  It is always 'Tell me how to spell xxx.'  I'm starting to think it is like a cat on the counter, once you let him up once, he will always try.  But if you never let him up, he will never try.  I'm starting to think I have dug this hole all by myself.  :sad:  And it is very discouraging.

 

I been doing some more thinking about this and some more reading, and I think that part of the problem is the lack of automaticity of the spelling.  I looked up the definition of this word and it is exactly the problem: "is the ability to do things without occupying the mind with the low-level details required."  In fact, I am starting to think that the phonics instruction is actually the problem.  He sounds out every phonogram and searches his brain for the right one for that word.  I think it is exhausting.  We are talking about every word, even the easy ones. This is why last year we worked on memorizing the top 1000 words to the point that he knew them cold. And even with all the review, he is forgetting them.  I guess it is like he is doing algebra and not knowing his times tables, so reducing 35x/7 becomes a huge chore.  Sure you could calculate the answer every time, but at some point you just want it memorized. 

 

He knows all the spelling rules, and can fix his spelling errors usually.  But when he is writing, it is just exhausting to sound out every. single. word.  To think about each rule for adding endings. And if he does not make any effort, I'm guessing the words would not even be recognizable. There is just that little automaticity in spelling for him.  I am starting to think that I should completely change focus and do something like Sequential Spelling and drop the phonics instruction altogether.

 

Have I completely horrified all the Spalding people?!?! :eek:

[8filltheheart]

Thanks for the words of wisdom AVA.  I do stress to him that it does not matter how it goes down in the draft.  But it is a fight every. single. day.  It is always 'Tell me how to spell xxx.'  I'm starting to think it is like a cat on the counter, once you let him up once, he will always try.  But if you never let him up, he will never try.  I'm starting to think I have dug this hole all by myself.  :sad:  And it is very discouraging.

 

I been doing some more thinking about this and some more reading, and I think that part of the problem is the lack of automaticity of the spelling.  I looked up the definition of this word and it is exactly the problem: "is the ability to do things without occupying the mind with the low-level details required."  In fact, I am starting to think that the phonics instruction is actually the problem.  He sounds out every phonogram and searches his brain for the right one for that word.  I think it is exhausting.  We are talking about every word, even the easy ones. This is why last year we worked on memorizing the top 1000 words to the point that he knew them cold. And even with all the review, he is forgetting them.  I guess it is like he is doing algebra and not knowing his times tables, so reducing 35x/7 becomes a huge chore.  Sure you could calculate the answer every time, but at some point you just want it memorized. 

 

He knows all the spelling rules, and can fix his spelling errors usually.  But when he is writing, it is just exhausting to sound out every. single. word.  To think about each rule for adding endings. And if he does not make any effort, I'm guessing the words would not even be recognizable. There is just that little automaticity in spelling for him.  I am starting to think that I should completely change focus and do something like Sequential Spelling and drop the phonics instruction altogether.

 

Have I completely horrified all the Spalding people?!?! :eek:

 

Ruth, 

 

Honestly, his spelling is not that bad.  Is it on par with most 10 yr olds?  Probably not, but it isn't that far off.  I have had an 8th grader score in the 3rd percentile in spelling (and in the 90s in every other category ;) ) and he was not my worst speller!  It could be far worse.

 

FWIW, my dyslexics were initially hampered by phonics for spelling b/c they couldn't rule their way into spelling.  (I am sure if you search under my name and spelling you will find a book's worth of commentary on spelling.)  Apples and Pears' morpheme approach helped my worst speller improve.   But, he was your ds's age and placed into their book A.   Your ds is way beyond that level.  Maybe a shift to morphemes would help break the cycle?   I would personally suggest a blend of phonics rules with some sort of word grouping and morpheme construction.  

 

FWIW, by the time my kids could spell as well as what you have posted, How to Teach Spelling, which is a phonics-based program, has been a good fit.  It has grouped words with spiral review. (I only use the TM and don't know what is in the workbooks.)  But,by that point,  they had learned to not rely on the rules but to simply reference them.

[Tanikit]

I agree with the others - definitely don't stifle his creativity and word choice - his writing is fantastic as far as word choice goes. I actually do not think he is that asynchronous either for his age - he is well ahead with his word choices, but his spelling is not as far behind as you think, and again probably easily fixed. The problem you state where he wants help with every word he does not know how to spell is very common (there are multiple threads about this on the K-8 curriculum board - its just that he is wanting help with perhaps more elaborate words as well as some of the more common ones.

 

You could always try free writing where you do no corrections and he must write regardless of how he spells - just to get ideas out. (And then do NOT get him to edit this at all - leave it entirely as first draft. Then separate the spelling and teach with dictation using the words he has misspelled that day/week (choose wisely - a child producing that output should not have to learn every single word he misspelled - rather stick to rules he is forgetting). And finally have a writing session where he will have to edit but begin as you did for first draft only work, but then send him back to look up every word and correct everything. He is 10 - when the spelling comes more easily he will automatically be writing things correctly with only a few word checks needed - it does become more automatic with time.

 

Finally you could always just be there and help him with his spelling each and every word - this works for my 6 year old right now - it does slow the writing down tremendously and they may lose their thoughts, but I found with her that it gave her the confidence she needed - for her it is more important to spell it correctly than it is to remember the entire piece she wrote - I will ask her: And what do you want to write next and then she can read what she has already written and think up the next part without being distracted by all the spelling errors in what she has just written. However, she also knows that I will never just spell a word for her - I ask her how she thinks it is spelled, write down the parts she knows, introduce any new phonics concepts she might not know and tell her anything that breaks the rules and if I think she really does know the word then I get her to write it down on a scrap piece of paper trying a few ways til it looks right. Yes it is labour intensive, but it is what works right now for my child - I am sure what works next month or next year will be something else. I found when my child has thoughts that run that fast they may not all be retained, but she can think up plenty more in the next breath without it ruining her writing at all. 

 

[Tracy]

What would you do with a child who likes to write a lot on her own, but that writing is filled with spelling errors? When writing on her own, she doesn't want to use the computer. She likes to make little books and write by hand and add drawings as she goes. I cringe a bit to have her practicing the wrong spellings over and over, but I also hate to think of telling her she can't write if she's not going to sit at the computer to do it.

 

I don't think you can very much about this.  I cringe, too, when I see my dd spelling things incorrectly.  But I want her to enjoy her writing and share it with me without being afraid that I will critique her every word.  You do what you can to teach them on the other end, refrain from requiring them to do anything that would require spelling words wrong, and hope for the best.  

[The Governess]

Have you looked into Spalding? They have a unique way of dictating words and labeling the sounds each phonogram makes and the rules that apply. It is really helping my poor speller sound out words. You could use their method with a list of the words he misspells when he is writing, if you don't want to go through the whole program. However, I have seen it work wonders for poor spellers and highly recommend the entire program as well. :)

[lewelma]

Ruth, I was wondering whether a handheld spell checker could help your son, so he's not relying on you to tell him the spelling every time. Something like: Franklin Spelling Corrector. Perhaps that would  have the same problem of interrupting his thought process? I actually never considered something like that until reading this thread and thinking what might help you,

 

Wow!  I like it.  It would allow him to take more responsibility for writing as he goes and help him become independent.  Thanks!

 

ETA: I just bought it! I think he will love it.

 

[lewelma]

Have you looked into Spalding? They have a unique way of dictating words and labeling the sounds each phonogram makes and the rules that apply. It is really helping my poor speller sound out words. You could use their method with a list of the words he misspells when he is writing, if you don't want to go through the whole program. However, I have seen it work wonders for poor spellers and highly recommend the entire program as well. :)

 

This is what we have been doing, except orally which might have been the problem.  He knows the rules from SWR (a spalding spinoff), and he has learned to spell in syllables.  So I just keep track of what he misses in his writing, put it on a list, and drill him until he gets it right 3 days in a row.  Then I have all the words on a next week retest, and a next term retest, and just keep the words he misses rolling forward.  We work for 15 minutes a day.

 

The problem is, this is not working.

 

I'm still thinking that Sequential Spelling is the answer because it works less on learning and implementing the rules, and more on making spelling automatic. Plus, it is morphene study rather than phonics, so the more ideas I can put in his head to understand english spelling, the better. The other thing, is that it will be different from SWR so I will be able to sell it easier than SWR in written (rather than oral) form.  And getting buy in for this boy is absolutely key.  I've already started the sell today.  "Did you know that you are good enough at phonics that we are ready for a new type of spelling?  And you can write your spelling words down so you can keep that pretty handwriting you developed last term, even though you are typing all your papers now.  Do you think you should add into your style that special 'd' that we saw on your certificate?"  So... sell, sell, sell.  I have 2 weeks until we start again, and I will have buy-in by then.  I'm that good. :001_smile: In the end, I'm guessing that it is all about writing the words down, so probably any program will work if I switch from oral to written practice. 

 

I'm currently going to through all the other ideas about narration, dictation, editing, etc and will be making up a plan.  I'll post it when I'm done. Nothing like school holidays to give me a chance to breathe and rethink things!

 

Thanks so much for everyone who has kindly given me all sorts of great suggestions on this thread.  You guys are invaluable!

 

Ruth in NZ

[The Governess]

This is what we have been doing, except orally which might have been the problem. He knows the rules from SWR (a spalding spinoff), and he has learned to spell in syllables. So I just keep track of what he misses in his writing, put it on a list, and drill him until he gets it right 3 days in a row. Then I have all the words on a next week retest, and a next term retest, and just keep the words he misses rolling forward. We work for 15 minutes a day.

 

The problem is, this is not working.

 

I'm still thinking that Sequential Spelling is the answer because it works less on learning and implementing the rules, and more on making spelling automatic. Plus, it is morphene study rather than phonics, so the more ideas I can put in his head to understand english spelling, the better. The other thing, is that it will be different from SWR so I will be able to sell it easier than SWR in written (rather than oral) form. And getting buy in for this boy is absolutely key. I've already started the sell today. "Did you know that you are good enough at phonics that we are ready for a new type of spelling? And you can write your spelling words down so you can keep that pretty handwriting you developed last term, even though you are typing all your papers now. Do you think you should add into your style that special 'd' that we saw on your certificate?" So... sell, sell, sell. I have 2 weeks until we start again, and I will have buy-in by then. I'm that good. :001_smile: In the end, I'm guessing that it is all about writing the words down, so probably any program will work if I switch from oral to written practice.

 

I'm currently going to through all the other ideas about narration, dictation, editing, etc and will be making up a plan. I'll post it when I'm done. Nothing like school holidays to give me a chance to breathe and rethink things!

 

Thanks so much for everyone who has kindly given me all sorts of great suggestions on this thread. You guys are invaluable!

 

Ruth in NZ

Got it. It sounds like you are on the right track. I really hope that a written spelling component is the missing link, and that adding it in will do the trick!

[PeterPan]

I'll just come in here quickly and say that indeed it sounds like his visual memory is not kicking in for his spelling.  This could happen in dyslexia (yes) or with developmental vision problems.  At that age we were doing a page written of dictation DAILY to try to get that carryover.  

 

I don't quite understand why you don't want to answer his request for spelling helps as he writes.  That's great that you got him the franklin spelling device.  With my dd we used the Alphalist by Sanseri.  

 

You asked why it would break up his thought process, and the term you're looking for is working memory.  

 

Granted he's bright, but his spelling ought to match what he's reading and trying to write, or he feels dumb.  I'd be looking into evals, just me.  You're just now starting typing?  Any motor control issues or discomfort getting the typing automatic?  If the typing doesn't progress well and he's having trouble getting his thoughts on paper, definitely consider evals as a way to get that paper trail going.  Working memory is something you can intervene on btw.  

 

One of the theories with SWR is to only have them see the word spelled CORRECTLY.  Given the complexity of his thoughts, I would let him dictate to you.  He should dictate all the way to punctuation.  That way you can separate out composition and spelling.  Another thing my dd did around that age was start writing in chicken scratch really fast then going back and translating it later and writing/typing it out.  You could do the same thing with an audio file that he types from.  The wpm expectations even in 7th grade are pretty low, maybe 35 wpm for an A, and that's just barely enough for someone to get their thoughts out.  If his typing is much slower, you're probably going to need to dictate till it speeds up.  It's ok to separate those things.

 

It seems to me his writing reflects a linguistic enjoyment of language, which would be common with a mathematician.  I wouldn't attempt to change his writing style to make it easier to type/write, but I would emphasize content and actually having something to say or a point.  As you say, he may just be letting his hair down and having fun after too much seriousness with writing for his other subjects.  You could make a post on Gen asking when people typically find their kids switching over and being able to type their compositions exclusively.  You could ask for age/grade or wpm typing skill or both.  I would think you'll find they tend to be in junior high, just my guess.  Could be all wet.  

 

 

[kiwik]

If he can find the mistakes and correct them with a dictionary does it really matter if his rough draft is spelt badly or in shorthand even.

 

I think they teach cursive of some type here in Nelson though because ds7 tried to do copywork in it the other day.