Elfknitter.# Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 Lol, if people want CC to mean 'currently religious people only please', then I guess they have to put that in the title of their post. Or maybe "No Atheists Allowed." might work. Ok but then it's splitting hairs. Only Catholics? Only Protestants? Only Evangelicals? (Which we've already seen is some what convoluted.) Are Mormons included? What about Messianic Jews?... Never mind the Buddhists, Muslims, Jews, Pagans, Wiccans... Just saying... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppy Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 The first account of creation is the summary...the second is the detailed account, not a second creation. Not hard to figure out if you actually study it. No. I mean, you are obviously free to interpret it however you want,but that explanation doesn't make sense textually. Plus I do not accept that one of the most interesting and strange puzzles of the Old Trstament is a "duhâ€. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elisabet1 Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 Here is the technical definition of brainwashing... http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/brainwash?s=t It is very simple. Raising your child with religious belief is not brain washing. Now, if you were to capture someone and starve them and whatever else until they "admit" that what you say is true and what they already thought or knew is not true, then that would be brainwashing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeacherZee Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 And here is another definition http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/brain%20washing 1 : a forcible indoctrination to induce someone to give up basic political, social, or religious beliefs and attitudes and to accept contrasting regimented ideas I think this definition shows that parents CAN brainwash their children. I have seen nearly grown children of parents who follow a very strict interpretation of the Bible give up dreams because their parents convince them that this is what the Bible tells them to do. This particular family went from fairly main stream to very radical fundamentalism in a few years. I would say their kids are definitely brainwashed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shanvan Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 Not the poster, but our church fits this description very well, as do a number of others taught by people associated with Masters College and TMAI. There are a fair number of reformed baptist congregations that would fit this theology quite nicely, too. Remember, it doesn't need to be an exact match - believers are free to disagree on scriptural interpretation of secondary and tertiary issues. But a reformed, dispensational, pre-trib believers do indeed exist and there's a lot of us. You just have to know where to look. And there are plenty of other churches that are solid but may hold slightly differing eschatology and such and still get along just fine. I am aware such churches exist, and we did our homework, researched, visited many churches, and finally did attend one for many years, however, believers definitely were not free to disagree on anything. Our family is not an exact match theologically with the post I quoted, though close. Several of the churches we've visited have similar theology, as far as written statements and church doctrine, but when you start attending, listening to sermons, and interacting, the actual preaching and practice does not reflect the written statements. Yes, there is no perfect match, and that's why I'm curious about what HMinAz's family decided was a good enough fit for for them. And, this is somewhat of a tangent to the OP's question, however related to teaching children beliefs. Besides considering the theology of the church, a parent has to consider the church's attitude toward youth. In many of the churches that hold to the beliefs listed Dh and I see a move toward the idea that the church is responsible for the upbringing of the children. There is pressure to leave children at the church without parents and an unhealthy youth culture is developing in some. It's a question, for us, of what is good enough and what is going to be least harmful to our Dc, b/c we have definitely experienced, at minimum disapproval for not wanting our Dc involved in many, many unproductive youth activities, and we have even been chastised publicly for not agreeing with the approaches taken to youth in the church. I suppose this is a larger divisive problem among modern churches as they struggle to attempt to keep children within the faith, yet, it seems from the research and the anecdotal evidence, that church programs are not what reaches children. So, I suppose, what I am saying, is that parents have to consider whether or not the church is brainwashing the youth. By brainwashing I mean what has been mentioned in this thread as a mindless approach and maybe even forcing of beliefs. Now, if you knowingly attend a church that does not reflect your own beliefs as a Christian, you also have to consider what is taught when you are not around, and how your child will respond to hearing ideas that don't reflect your beiefs, plus how the adults will handle a child who might actually say his or her family doesn't agree! I am tired and sinusy this morning, and frustrated that my mind is not working like it should! May not be explaining myself well, but I did make an attempt! Hope I'm not drifting too far from the OP's post. I am thinking 'out loud' (so to speak) here about related issues and remembering posts from the other thread where people mentioned one of their big mistakes was trusting the church to teach their children Christian beliefs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albeto. Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 And here is another definition http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/brain%20washing 1 : a forcible indoctrination to induce someone to give up basic political, social, or religious beliefs and attitudes and to accept contrasting regimented ideas I think this definition shows that parents CAN brainwash their children. I have seen nearly grown children of parents who follow a very strict interpretation of the Bible give up dreams because their parents convince them that this is what the Bible tells them to do. This particular family went from fairly main stream to very radical fundamentalism in a few years. I would say their kids are definitely brainwashed The point about brainwashing children from an early age is easier to see in a completely different context, I think. This documentary is from National Geographic, an inside look into North Korea. Nat Geo goes undercover with an eye doctor, pretending to film about his surgery while getting as much information as possible. The entire video is interesting, but starting at 25 min into the video will give a nice look at how the indoctrination looks, and how it works. It's a consistent, constant, cultural push to love and adore the "Great Leader." All things negative are ignored, indeed, there is a systematic refusal to teach anything negative, so people get a specific version of a specific story. Emotions are tied into loyalty, because the overwhelming sense of unmerited grace from "Great Leader" produces overwhelming gratitude. The similarities between this and Jesus Camp are too great to ignore, and are arguably quite obvious to one who has no emotional attachment to either belief. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DawnM Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 I don't think I can watch that documentary. Just the first picture alone makes me cringe for those in N. Korea. I have watched Jesus Camp and as is true with many documentaries, they take the extreme views to televise. It makes for far more interesting drama. Our church and our leaders are nothing like Jesus Camp. There is no emotional manipulation that I have seen. I was traumatized by some well meaning emotional manipulators in my youth, so it is definitely something I would not want for my children. Dawn The point about brainwashing children from an early age is easier to see in a completely different context, I think. This documentary is from National Geographic, an inside look into North Korea. Nat Geo goes undercover with an eye doctor, pretending to film about his surgery while getting as much information as possible. The entire video is interesting, but starting at 25 min into the video will give a nice look at how the indoctrination looks, and how it works. It's a consistent, constant, cultural push to love and adore the "Great Leader." All things negative are ignored, indeed, there is a systematic refusal to teach anything negative, so people get a specific version of a specific story. Emotions are tied into loyalty, because the overwhelming sense of unmerited grace from "Great Leader" produces overwhelming gratitude. The similarities between this and Jesus Camp are too great to ignore, and are arguably quite obvious to one who has no emotional attachment to either belief. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lavandula Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 nm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommymilkies Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 Everyone passes their beliefs (or "non-beliefs") to their children. I think the brainwashing you are thinking of comes from a parent's fear of losing control. And while it is important to teach your children, in the end you can't control their beliefs. It's just particularly hard because a person's faith (or philosophy, if you prefer) is essentially what makes them who they are and it is hard to see a loved one reject what is so important to you. I agree with this. Sometimes it feels like it is SO hard to walk that fine line of teaching your beliefs and brainwashing. I was raised around several different religions. And I'm including agnosticism/atheism as one, yes. I know people will argue with that, but it was argued with as much fervor as the Evangelical side! Two family parts taught me their beliefs were absolute truth and the other sides were WRONG and bad. Surprisingly or not, this was both the Atheist and Christian (Baptist) family. It's also kind of interesting to see the spectrum of beliefs in different areas or between people of the same faith. The Catholics I was raised with are nothing like, and taught me differently than, many Catholics I've met on this board-no offense, not saying one is better. But I remember thinking "They believe that? That's new to me!" despite my experiences. Heck, I was the Jewish kid who never really "got" that Jews shouldn't eat pork until I was an adult. :lol: We didn't attend synagogue often because we moved to a very rural area so that's how I'll rationalize it at least. ;) The things I *didn't* know definitely outweighed what I thought I did. The beliefs that have stuck with me are the ones that were more loose and accepting and said "This is what we believe. It works for me." Maybe that's personality type, maybe it was just the positive influence of those particular people. IDK. But most people will eventually figure out what works for them despite the best attempts made by their parents. Wasn't there a study showing belief in God might actually be genetic to some degree, too? So there's another factor. I do know that the people I know with the most extreme opinions feel pushed that way by family not allowing them to hold their own beliefs. I know Evangelicals raised by strong anti-theists who wouldn't accept their children searching for options out there. And I know many atheists who were pushed too strongly from Fundamentalist Christian families. I want my kids to search out and find the religious beliefs that fit them-not just what I believe. But then again I'm agnostic and don't believe any one religion is "right" and my beliefs are very fluid and accepting. I'm very UU in the way I teach the kids. They read something about Taoism or Catholicism and we will go out of our way to talk to family and friends with those beliefs, read about it, find ways to be sensitive towards those people or understand them. That doesn't mean I wouldn't be worried by my kids holding certain beliefs (like cults), but I think with enough love, education, and acceptance, that's unlikely to happen. Or so I tell myself. :coolgleamA: As for CC-I totally didn't see that part until I read through this. But my beliefs aren't entirely Christian. They're hippie dippie combination IDK kind of beliefs, so feel free to ignore me, I suppose. Though I think that this discussion is important for ALL religious and non-religious people to have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 Lol, if people want CC to mean 'currently religious people only please', then I guess they have to put that in the title of their post. Or maybe "No Atheists Allowed." might work. If I recall correctly, people started putting the cc designation on their posts years ago because they were looking for input from other Christians, but also because non-Christians appreciated knowing which threads were Christian in nature, so they would know not to bother opening them because they weren't of interest to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slache Posted June 30, 2014 Author Share Posted June 30, 2014 What I'm taking away from this is that you want your kids to be able to defend their faith to those who would ask the hard questions. Is that correct? That's an increasingly difficult task for parents, no doubt. Your kids will be internet savvy without even having to think about it, and so they'll find out how the theory of evolution really works, which contradicts what YEC apologists will explain. They'll learn why the information they are encouraged to present is of less interest to an increasingly secular society, and it won't have to do with "sin" or the devil or anything like that, but with answers to the difficult questions that are more plausible when critically analyzed and logically considered. That's not to say your kids will reject their faith. There's no way for me to know. Or you. Which is why it's a big unsettling, I know. I've been there. Do you mean "brainwashing" as in learning the "wrong" faith, then they act in ways inconsistent with the bible? Raising them to believe what I say is true without givingthem the opportunity to learn for themselves. When you consider something to be true that's a pretty easy thing to do. You can't avoid that, in my opinion. For the same reason you may find someone else a hypocrite, they find you one. For the same reason you can defend yourself against such an accusation, they can too. That's one of the problems with the religion. Your kids may never figure this out, but if they do, all the apologetics in the world won't help. In any case, I'm curious as to which posts in this thread you consider to have had the intent to offend. I ask because if you're talking about giving an answer for your hope, you might consider interpreting a reply as less persecutory and more academic. It's hard to give an answer if the conversation makes you uncomfortable, kwim? Maybe you're not uncomfortable and I'm reading you all wrong, but my impression is that you've kind of hid yourself away from this discussion when it veered off the track that made you comfortable, the track that supported your beliefs, and came back out when talk of atheist meanies surfaced. That kind of behavior made me think you're uncomfortable when people don't accept the answer for your hope, and so I wonder if you're hoping to spare your children this discomfort. But like I say, if I'm reading this all wrong, then ignore. ;-) It was one of yours. You have this tenancy to word things in way than come across as "Oh, that's what you believe? You're wrong." I didn't get involved in the debate topics because I don't want this thread locked. I'm enjoying it. I would also enjoy a passionate discussion on Catholicism vs non Catholic types of Christianity. I'm sure I would learn much. But not here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albeto. Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 It was one of yours. You have this tenancy to word things in way than come across as "Oh, that's what you believe? You're wrong." I'd be curious to know which one. If I'm coming across as saying an opinion is wrong, that would be worth clearing up. If someone corrects facts, however, a person who denies these facts by virtue of believing in their religious explanations instead would have to confront this discomfort if they're going to give an answer to their faith (the "hope" you're talking about). Otherwise, they'd avoid it. But that's not what you want for your kids, right? You want them to address it head on. I didn't get involved in the debate topics because I don't want this thread locked. I'm enjoying it. I would also enjoy a passionate discussion on Catholicism vs. Christianity. I'm sure I would learn much. But not here. I hear ya there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppy Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 Catholics are Christians!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slache Posted June 30, 2014 Author Share Posted June 30, 2014 Catholics are Christians!!!!!!! That was really rude. I'm so Sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NASDAQ Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 I don't usually post in cc threads because I'm not Christian and have little to say on it. I don't think a cc thread is a good place to start comparing Jesus Camp to North Korea. I think the comparison is ridiculous and I'm neither Christian nor North Korean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amccracken Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 Slache, I was not raised in a Christian home but became a Christian as an adult. I have often struggled with how to share my faith with my children in a meaningful way, not preach or pushy. I want to recommend a book by Andrew Murray called Raising Your Child to Love God. I can't recommend it high enough. It helped me find peace and faith in that area. It is currently OOP but there are many copies around and at one time it was free on Google Books under the title of The Children for Christ. I hope this helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LMD Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 I might chime in with a more thoughtful answer later on, but here is a quick swat at what we did or what I wish we had done, and what my parents did (more or less). Walk it more than you talk it. Talk to God about your kid more than you talk to your kid about God. The only one you have any *control* over regarding a relationship with God is your own personal self--and in my case "control" is a really dubious word. Listen to your kid and don't take questioning personally. This is harder in some faiths than in others because so much is left up to person interpretation, so it *does* become a defense of personal belief. But when the questions are about what has been taught since the beginning of the faith, it is not personal...it's just questions. Love is the trump card. Please note that most of these things I am learning or have learned the hard way. wow... I may just print this out... Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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