Atheist deemed mentally ill

[Laura Corin]

Nigeria.

 

L

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

That's horrible.

[Mom-ninja.]

I hope he is released sooner than later and that he then moves out of the country to a place where he won't be persecuted.

[Heather in Neverland]

Well, Nigeria seems like just a peachy place to live.

 

You cannot FORCE a person to actually BELIEVE something. You can force them to say they do, I suppose. But you can't actually force the belief. So are countries like the Sudan and Nigeria (and heck, even Malaysia has laws against converting) actually concerned with people having the proper belief according to the government or are they just trying to have power over what comes out of your mouth?

 

In Malaysia for instance, not letting the Malays convert from Islam is more of a political move than a religious one. Seems like it is the same in these other countries.

 

This is awful.

[zoobie]

Well, Nigeria seems like just a peachy place to live.

 

You cannot FORCE a person to actually BELIEVE something. You can force them to say they do, I suppose. But you can't actually force the belief. So are countries like the Sudan and Nigeria (and heck, even Malaysia has laws against converting) actually concerned with people having the proper belief according to the government or are they just trying to have power over what comes out of your mouth?

 

In Malaysia for instance, not letting the Malays convert from Islam is more of a political move than a religious one. Seems like it is the same in these other countries.

 

This is awful.

Exactly! But honestly, as the same Americans helped write their anti-gay laws are also supporting (for one example) Texas's pro-conversion therapy platform, we aren't doing much better. :(

[FaithManor]

This makes my heart bleed. I hope he gets out of both detainment and the country!

[Spryte]

Unbelievable.  

 

I hope he gets out soon, and that he moves away as well.

[mom31257]

Exactly! But honestly, the same Americans helped write their anti-gay laws are also supporting (for one example) Texas's pro-conversion therapy platform, we aren't doing much better. :(

 

The difference is that it is voluntary. 

[maize]

I'm curious about the motives of the relatives, and I wonder if the insanity claims are meant to protect him from prosecution under sharia law?

[creekland]

Exactly! But honestly, the same Americans helped write their anti-gay laws are also supporting (for one example) Texas's pro-conversion therapy platform, we aren't doing much better. :(

 

Hmm, I see a HUGE difference between what is going on in the two places (or more).  They aren't even on the same scale to be honest.

[Lavandula]

The difference is that it is voluntary. 

Not when parents are forcing their kids to do it.

[maize]

http://www.refworld.org/docid/50068bbf2.html

 

It sounds like the death penalty could be applied for apostasy in parts of Nigeria. Insanity may seem a safer claim.

[maize]

Not when parents are forcing their kids to do it.

 

Parents force their kids to do all kinds of things, like go to school and eat vegetables and wear seatbelts and mow the lawn. When kids are mature enough to make all their own decisions we call them adults.

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

http://www.refworld.org/docid/50068bbf2.html

 

It sounds like the death penalty could be applied for apostasy in parts of Nigeria. Insanity may seem a safer claim.

 

It's terrible that insanity would be the safer claim.

 

His family may be trying to protect him, but it s wrong that this is even an issue.

[Lavandula]

Parents force their kids to do all kinds of things, like go to school and eat vegetables and wear seatbelts and mow the lawn. When kids are mature enough to make all their own decisions we call them adults.

There's a big difference between forcing your kid to undergo therapy that's been proven not only useless but also quite mentally scarring, and making your kids to eat their vegetables. Maybe you should read up a bit on the history of gay rights and all the things they've gone through and still go through before you make silly remarks that compare something that's considered abuse by many to seatbelts.

[maize]

There's a big difference between forcing your kid to undergo therapy that's been proven not only useless but also quite mentally scarring, and making your kids to eat their vegetables. Maybe you should read up a bit on the history of gay rights and all the things they've gone through and still go through before you make silly remarks that compare something that's considered abuse by many to seatbelts.

I found school to be pretty abusive and scarring, but no-one would condemn my parents for making me go.

[Lavandula]

I found school to be pretty abusive and scarring, but no-one would condemn my parents for making me go.

And now we're comparing an abusive, useless, oppressive therapy technique, to school. Okay. Okay. I still recommend you go inform yourself a bit. Until then I'm done here.

[maize]

And now we're comparing an abusive, useless, oppressive therapy technique, to school. Okay. Okay. I still recommend you go inform yourself a bit. Until then I'm done here.

I honestly don't have a clue what you're talking about or whether your opinion on the usefulness of the therapy is more valid than the next person's. I objected to your claim that parents should not make such decisions for their children. Parents are obligated to make decisions for their children, according to the best of their ability and understanding. Society overall exercises the right to terminate parental authority in cases of gross negligence or abuse, but there remains (and must remain)a wide realm within which parental discretion reigns. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't want someone else, with a different worldview and different criteria, determining which therapies are or are not appropriate for your child.

[Lavandula]

My thoughts on the therapy stems from numerous studies conducted by scientists, and tons of experiences of actual people. I would feel comfortable with someone else making the decision as long as they were basing it on science and not fairy tales and hatred.

[Heather in Neverland]

Back on topic...

 

This is an interesting wake up call. Many in America claim persecution for whatever it is they believe. Americans in general do not have a clue what real persecution is like. All the more reason to be vigilant and protective of our freedom of (or from) religion. Without it, we will devolve to Nigeria or any other country with the death penalty for not being the favored religion.

[Mergath]

I honestly don't have a clue what you're talking about or whether your opinion on the usefulness of the therapy is more valid than the next person's. I objected to your claim that parents should not make such decisions for their children. Parents are obligated to make decisions for their children, according to the best of their ability and understanding. Society overall exercises the right to terminate parental authority in cases of gross negligence or abuse, but there remains (and must remain)a wide realm within which parental discretion reigns. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't want someone else, with a different worldview and different criteria, determining which therapies are or are not appropriate for your child.

 

Somehow, I think that if a parent was using brainwashing techniques to try to force a straight child to be gay, you wouldn't be quite so understanding.

[maize]

Somehow, I think that if a parent was using brainwashing techniques to try to force a straight child to be gay, you wouldn't be quite so understanding.

Meh, if a parent thinks such therapy would help their child that is their choice. Like I said, I don't know anything about the therapy in question, and I really don't have an opinion on it.

 

If the responsibility to make decisions for children does not rest with the parents, with whom does it rest? Would you prefer a centralized government agency make all child-rearing decisions? That sounds like the makings of a dystopian novel to me.

[maize]

It's terrible that insanity would be the safer claim.

 

His family may be trying to protect him, but it s wrong that this is even an issue.

Agreed.

[Jennifer3141]

Back on topic...

 

This is an interesting wake up call. Many in America claim religious persecution for whatever it is they believe. Americans in general do not have a clue what real persecution is like. All the more reason to be vigilant and protective of our freedom of (or from) religion. Without it, we will devolve to Nigeria or any other country with the death penalty for not being the favored religion.

 

 

This falls along the lines of one of the things I truly do not understand about the more conservative Americans who are calling for a shift to these ideals.

 

Which sect wins? Are we all supposed to be Mormon? Baptist? Seventh Day Adventist?

 

As a secular person, I think it's all nuts. But I don't have a pony in this race. The, "religious" do.

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

Back on topic...

 

This is an interesting wake up call. Many in America claim religious persecution for whatever it is they believe. Americans in general do not have a clue what real persecution is like. All the more reason to be vigilant and protective of our freedom of (or from) religion. Without it, we will devolve to Nigeria or any other country with the death penalty for not being the favored religion.

 

I think this is important to remember when we discuss freedom of (or from) religion. There is a very good chance that if the government espoused a religion officially it might not be your specific brand of religion. In the U.S.A., even among Christians there is such variance and diversity that it is highly unlikely the state religion would match an individuals specific sect. That seperation of church and state allows us to have such variantion and diversity in the first place.

 

It's scary someone could be deemed mentally ill for their religion or lack thereof, or sentenced to death.

[Crimson Wife]

Not when parents are forcing their kids to do it.

 

What if the patient is a victim of s*x abuse? That is why I'm against outright bans on so-called "conversion therapy". I don't personally think it's helpful for most people who experience same-sex attraction, but I do see where it could be helpful for someone who is reacting to the abuse he/she suffered.

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

What if the patient is a victim of s*x abuse? That is why I'm against outright bans on so-called "conversion therapy". I don't personally think it's helpful for most people who experience same-sex attraction, but I do see where it could be helpful for someone who is reacting to the abuse he/she suffered.

 

 

I am pro therapy for abuse victims, but "conversion therapy" has been repeatedly shown to be detrimental.

[LucyStoner]

Parents force their kids to do all kinds of things, like go to school and eat vegetables and wear seatbelts and mow the lawn. When kids are mature enough to make all their own decisions we call them adults.

I disagree. My son vocalized his disbelief in religion when he was 3. And it's not like he'd been told not too- he did do this while we were waiting for service to start at our church. He's held firm since that time. You might be able to force someone to say something (though probably not my son, lol) but you can force anyone to actually believe something they don't. My brother said that he wasn't trans and gay a lot of times before he was able to vocalize the truth. Conversion therapy doesn't change who someone is, it changes what they say. People say things they don't believe for all sorts of reasons.

 

Bruno never said the right thing and was burnt up. Galileo did relent and say he was wrong to save his skin but I doubt he changed his mind.

[SproutMamaK]

Wow, what a nightmare. :(  There's so much talk of religious persecution around the world, it honestly never occured to me that there would be a time when such persecution would extend to the NON-religious.

 

Perhaps those wishing ot debate legislation & therapy in the US could take it to another so as to not take away from the discussion on this particular case?

[maize]

I disagree. My son vocalized his disbelief in religion when he was 3. And it's not like he'd been told not too- he did do this while we were waiting for service to start at our church. He's held firm since that time. You might be able to force someone to say something (though probably not my son, lol) but you can force anyone to actually believe something they don't.

 

Bruno never said the right thing and was burnt up. Galileo did relent and say he was wrong to save his skin but I doubt he changed his mind.

Pretty sure I never said anything about forcing someone to believe, kids are certainly capable of developing their own beliefs. But you could make a child go to church, or to gymnastics, or to political rallies, or to therapy, or to school. You couldn't necessarily make them participate in a meaningful way.

[LucyStoner]

NM

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

Wow, what a nightmare. :(  There's so much talk of religious persecution around the world, it honestly never occured to me that there would be a time when such persecution would extend to the NON-religious.

 

Perhaps those wishing ot debate legislation & therapy in the US could take it to another so as to not take away from the discussion on this particular case?

 

Normally I'd agree, but I think it's pertinent to this discussion as well as the discussion of the woman who converted to Christianity.

[maize]

Wow, what a nightmare. :( There's so much talk of religious persecution around the world, it honestly never occured to me that there would be a time when such persecution would extend to the NON-religious.

 

Perhaps those wishing ot debate legislation & therapy in the US could take it to another so as to not take away from the discussion on this particular case?

OK, back on topic :)

[maize]

Nm

[BrookValley.]

[snip]

 

Perhaps those wishing ot debate legislation & therapy in the US could take it to another so as to not take away from the discussion on this particular case?

 

I disagree...I think both of those issues are pertinent to the discussion.

[LucyStoner]

NM

[BrookValley.]

Back on topic...

 

This is an interesting wake up call. Many in America claim religious persecution for whatever it is they believe. Americans in general do not have a clue what real persecution is like. All the more reason to be vigilant and protective of our freedom of (or from) religion. Without it, we will devolve to Nigeria or any other country with the death penalty for not being the favored religion.

 

 

I think this is important to remember when we discuss freedom of (or from) religion. There is a very good chance that if the government espoused a religion officially it might not be your specific brand of religion. In the U.S.A., even among Christians there is such variance and diversity that it is highly unlikely the state religion would match an individuals specific sect. That seperation of church and state allows us to have such variantion and diversity in the first place.

 

It's scary someone could be deemed mentally ill for their religion or lack thereof, or sentenced to death.

 

I agree. I've encountered folks who think that my (sometimes pretty vocal) opinion on keeping religion out of legislation and other public areas (schools, for example), is somehow me attempting to persecute those who are religious. :huh:  Uh, no. It's me thinking we should all be able to practice whatever flavor of religion--or not-- that we want.

[Harriet Vane]

The poor man. It's not right at all. No one, anywhere, should be imprisoned for their beliefs.

[albeto.]

I think Saudi Arabia considers atheists terrorists.  Mentally ill might be merciful in comparison.

 

Yes, they do. Thirteen countries prosecute atheism with capital punishment.  Myanmar drafted a law, which was published by Myanmar’s state-funded media on May 27th, that outlines a rigorous procedure for those wanting to convert from one religion to another by requiring them to obtain permission from a panel of government officials. It threatens converts with a prison term of up to two years on grounds of “insulting or destroying a religion†and those found guilty of “influencing or pressuring†someone to convert with a prison term of up to one year. This ingroup protecting from the outgroup kind of mentality is something humans have evolved with - it's a strong behavioral adaptation that allows one to help protect their group, thus promoting the chance of survival. In today's global reality, it's horribly out of date, illogical, irrational, and dangerous. 

[umsami]

See, without even clicking, I guessed "Muslim country" (and I'm Muslim). 

 

Saudi Arabia just put out some stuff about atheism and terrorism (rolls eyes)….so I actually think mental illness is preferable, sadly.

 

There was an interesting article about the rise of atheism there.  http://www.salon.com/2014/06/12/atheism_explodes_in_saudi_arabia_where_just_talking_about_atheism_is_illegal_partner/

 

It amazes me as somebody who came to Islam willingly how freakin' paranoid some Muslims are about even being exposed to other faiths.  If you believe it is the truth, that it can stand up to scrutiny.  If you don't, then you're living a lie anyway.

 

Sad.

[Truscifi]

It is truly frightening that locking him up for mental illness might be his family's way to try to protect him. On many levels.

[Laura Corin]

I think this is important to remember when we discuss freedom of (or from) religion. There is a very good chance that if the government espoused a religion officially it might not be your specific brand of religion. In the U.S.A., even among Christians there is such variance and diversity that it is highly unlikely the state religion would match an individuals specific sect. That seperation of church and state allows us to have such variantion and diversity in the first place.

 

 

I do recognise that not having an official religion is important to the way that the US treats religion.  However, it's not impossible to have a country with an official religion that nonetheless welcomes all, or no, faiths.  The UK manages it, and somehow succeeds in having a very relaxed attitude to faith.

 

L

[Χά�ων]

I do recognise that not having an official religion is important to the way that the US treats religion.  However, it's not impossible to have a country with an official religion that nonetheless welcomes all, or no, faiths.  The UK manages it, and somehow succeeds in having a very relaxed attitude to faith.

 

L

The UK manages to do so much that is deemed to be horrible or the end of the world in the US. Universal Health Care among one. I hope one day the people elect leaders who will take a stand and look at what is working around the world and how it can help those in the US, instead of scream that it is communism to elicit fear from those who are unwilling to educate themselves and instead jump on the latest fear mongering wagon.

[albeto.]

Wow, what a nightmare. :(  There's so much talk of religious persecution around the world, it honestly never occured to me that there would be a time when such persecution would extend to the NON-religious.

That's one of the side-effects, I think, of identifying as a member of a group rather than seeing all people as part of one "ingroup" - we tend to not see what happens to those outside our "ingroup." You say you weren't aware of persecution around the world with regard to those who publicly admit to not believing in the official faith of their nation. These events just never crossed your path, but I've been aware of them for some time.

 

In May, Raif Badawi was sentenced to 10 years in prison, and 1,000 lashes for "insulting Islam." His "crime" was in creating a website, Liberal Saudi Network, that was dedicated to fostering debate on religion and politics; and calling on his country to respect freedom of religion, belief, and expression, and women's rights. His wife and children left the country due to threats against their safety.

 

Bangladeshi atheist blogger Asif Mohiuddin has been in prison since 3 April for "hurting religious beliefs." He writes, "I was attacked but I was lucky, I did not have to die. But, blogger Rajib Hayder was not so lucky as me. Rajib was attacked later that month. His throat was slashed, the attackers left him only after ensuring his death. Those senseless attackers of Rajib had no quarrel with him, they did not even know him. Still they decided to attack and kill him because they figured his writing is somehow challenging and threatening the all powerful position of Allah and the only true religion called Islam!"

 

Maylasian Prime Minister Datuk Seri Najib Tun Razak said humanism and secularism are new religions threatening Islam. This is, according to the Prime Minister, the most dangerous threat to the Islamic faith - not having faith, putting human well-being above religious privilege. 

 

Then again, there are so many problematic effects of the fear losing religious belief in society - increased criminalization of nonconventional practices like LGBTQ, criminalization of criticism of political authority, danger for promoting equal opportunity for education for girls, and decreased opportunities for effective family planning. 

 

Makes the "War on Christmas" seem like an offensive accusation in comparison, don't you think? 

 

Perhaps those wishing ot debate legislation & therapy in the US could take it to another so as to not take away from the discussion on this particular case?

 

I generally prefer the bunny trails to be included in the original thread. Those who are interested reply to those posts, those who don't, don't. Those of us just reading along know the origins of these conversational bunny trails. Just a thought. ;)

[Laura Corin]

The UK manages to do so much that is deemed to be horrible or the end of the world in the US. Universal Health Care among one. I hope one day the people elect leaders who will take a stand and look at what is working around the world and how it can help those in the US, instead of scream that it is communism to elicit fear from those who are unwilling to educate themselves and instead jump on the latest fear mongering wagon.

 

Funny you should say that.  My (conservative) brother-in-law was saying last weekend that his ideal health care system would cover everyone at a basic level, with the opportunity to top-up cheaply.  I told him that he had described the British system: my company tops up my health care with extra insurance in order to get me quick service and have me back to work sooner.  It doesn't cost much because it only kicks in when there's an operation or something needed.  People can buy top-ups themselves if they like.  B-I-L was pretty surprised at where he found himself in the discussion.

 

Sorry for the side-track.

 

L

[6packofun]

And now we're comparing an abusive, useless, oppressive therapy technique, to school. Okay. Okay. I still recommend you go inform yourself a bit. Until then I'm done here.

 

And...we're comparing individual families making what some consider an abusive choice to government oppression of religious choice.

 

Oh wait, I think I can come up with even better comparisons of religious oppression from our own country.

 

[Lavandula]

And...we're comparing individual families making what some consider an abusive choice to government oppression of religious choice.

 

Oh wait, I think I can come up with even better comparisons of religious oppression from our own country.

 

I wasn't the one who made that comparison, I was just responding to the person who called it voluntary. It's not exactly the worst comparison though. People are being persecuted for things they can't really control. Is it as bad as some other countries? Probably not. But there are plenty of gay people who have been murdered, sent to mental institutions, etc. The main difference is when that happens to an atheist you're shocked, and when it happens to a gay person you don't really feel mad at all.

[maize]

I wasn't the one who made that comparison, I was just responding to the person who called it voluntary. It's not exactly the worst comparison though. People are being persecuted for things they can't really control. Is it as bad as some other countries? Probably not. But there are plenty of gay people who have been murdered, sent to mental institutions, etc. The main difference is when that happens to an atheist you're shocked, and when it happens to a gay person you don't really feel mad at all.

I doubt there is a single person on this board who would not be upset and angry over the murder if a gay person or any other person.

[Lavandula]

I doubt there is a single person on this board who would not be upset and angry over the murder if a gay person or any other person.

I don't. 

[Rosie_0801]

Well, Nigeria seems like just a peachy place to live.

 

You cannot FORCE a person to actually BELIEVE something. You can force them to say they do, I suppose. But you can't actually force the belief. So are countries like the Sudan and Nigeria (and heck, even Malaysia has laws against converting) actually concerned with people having the proper belief according to the government or are they just trying to have power over what comes out of your mouth?

 

In Malaysia for instance, not letting the Malays convert from Islam is more of a political move than a religious one. Seems like it is the same in these other countries.

 

This is awful.

 

I've heard it explained as sort of institutionalised proselytising, by a professor of international law. (Via my Coursera addiction.) That seems a little generous to me, but maybe that's where those laws started.