Need advice about ticking boxes for a nontraditional student - science related

[lewelma]

We live in NZ and my older son is likely to go to an Australian or NZ university for undergrad; however, I want to make sure that he has all the requirements fulfilled in case he wants to go to an American university instead.  But because going to American is unlikely, I am unwilling to completely reshape his program, but rather want to know how to massage a few things to make them fit into the American little boxes.

 

He is currently in 8th grade, but it looks likely that he will apply a year early, making this year 9th grade. 

 

First of all he is non-traditional because he is a specialist from a young age.  His speciality is mathematics and he currently works on math for about 25-30 hours per week. He is very likely to represent NZ in the IMO in 10th and 11th grade (assuming right now that he will skip 12th).  If he were to go to an American university it would be because a big one accepted him like MIT or Standford, etc, and probably because he medalled at the IMO. Otherwise, he will just go some place Southern Hemisphere.

 

The rest of his schedule is pretty normal with each year: 1 Music, 1 Mandarin, 1 Science, 1 English, 1 History.  With the exception of writing, he is broadly gifted in all subjects especially music.

 

The problem I have is with science, specifically the lab component.  DS will probably major in Math, but is also very interested in Physics or even the mathematical side of Neurobiology.  He has done massive scientific investigations for years now, culminating in 1st in class at the regional science fair in 6th grade (and first for the entire fair in mathematics), and 3rd in class in 7th grade (including 1st for the entire fair in measurement - which was for the project with the most tricky data collection problem and most creative solution).  Each project took more than 100 hours.  He has definitely done lab work.  (These projects also might be considered 7th and 8th grade if he skips 12th)

 

So what instigated this question is that we are looking for the next project now.  This year I would like him to work through the Royal Society of NZ to earn a Crest Award, which gives him an advisor who is an expert  in his area of research who will help guide the entire project.  These projects are required to be 3-4 terms (for Silver), 1-2 years (for gold).  These awards are very well regarded.

 

The plan is for him to do a Crest Award instead of weekly labs.  He is currently doing physics, so I was initially looking for him to work on one of the IYPT problems (International Young Physicists' Tournament http://www.iypt.org/Tournaments/Shrewsbury#Problems).  But apparently, unbeknownst to me, he has been working recently to create an artificial intelligence in a computer game (pong) he made. His changing the acceleration and movement of both the puck and the racket and trying to get the racket to act more human so it is more fun to play against. And I thought that this could be an awesome project that could easily take him a year, and definitely span more than one school year.  It is clearly interdisciplinary between math, physics, biology (think neural nets), and computer science, and obviously once he got with a knowledgeable advisor it would mutate into something really interesting. 

 

So after that long intro, my question is pretty simple.  I need this to count as his lab credit for science for 2 years because he does not have time to do anything else labwise. It would run currently with the 2nd year of AP Physics and the 1st year of AP Chemistry (I spread these AP classes over 2 years and would call the first year high school level).  He will also do a 10 hour chemistry lab intensive at the university that would cover the high school labs done in school.  It is also possible, that if he works on the gold level project he may not end up doing any other lab work in high school, so this might need to count for Bio too. 

 

Basically, I am just not clear on how to make such a large interdisciplinary project tick the boxes for standard high school lab science in the USA. I am also wondering how to count his middle school science lab work towards high school requirements. These projects were in Oceanography and Traffic Engineering so not exactly a straight forward correlation with traditional high school science subjects.

 

Also, please don't tell me it is not possible.  I am not looking to change the plan, just to package it in a way that is acceptable to a good US university.  However, if there is a general consensus that it is definitely not possible, then I will consider changing the plan. :001_smile:

 

Thanks for any advice,

 

Ruth in NZ

 

ETA: There has been a bit of confusion over the middle school science projects. Each project won a major award for the *entire* regional fair grades 6 to 12. He won the Math award for the oceanography project from the Department of Mathematics, Statistics, and Operations Research at the sponsoring university, and the Methodology award for the traffic engineering project from Callaghan Innovation, the major NZ R&D government agency (kind of like the NSF). This was in addition to 1st in class and 3rd in class respectively. I know that people say only count middle school foreign language and math, but these science awards are at a high school level.

[Nan in Mass]

Hmm... I am no expert, especially when it comes to top colleges. I did, however, make a school transcript for youngest that included some nonstandard science options. Of course you can do this. Even our local public school has some independent research options for top students in science. I would guess that the top colleges are used to seeing this sort of thing. If your son decides to apply here, when the time comes, you can talk to the admissions department and they will tell you what they want to see from international students. You can even write a few emails now, if you want. We did this early on and changed our strategy accordingly. Make sure you say all the things you said here so they know that they are dealing with someone who covered much of the basic high school science before high school and that science and math competitions are involved.

 

If you were a us student,the requirements would probably include sat scores and certain sat2 (subject) tests. This isso that the college can compare apples to apples. They want these even from students who have ap scores. You would also need to make a transcript. Do you have these? I "translated" my children,s odd educational experience into a standard transcript by breaking the work up into courses or projects, assigning them an equivalent amount of credit based on time spent or material covered, and then giving the project or course the most descriptive title I could come up with. Then I listed the courses and projects by subject - science, math, literature, etc. listing this way allowed the weirder titles to be pegged easily and allowed one to see at a glance how much work hadbeen done in each area. I used super scripts to indicate which items included extensive travel or were taken at the community college or included lab work. I included a separate "subject" called something like "high school level work completed before 9th grade". I included an overview that explained how I had done the translation, and a list of course descriptions.

 

Hth

Nan

[orelbeilinson]

Do not forget to go through AP Course Audit, or else your classes cannot be officially named AP.

[lewelma]

Do not forget to go through AP Course Audit, or else your classes cannot be officially named AP.

 

No need to worry about that.  I'm just trying to talk American for you guys.  He will be taking the NZ NCEA Scholarship exam which is at the same level as an AP.

[lewelma]

Hmm... I am no expert, especially when it comes to top colleges. I did, however, make a school transcript for youngest that included some nonstandard science options. Of course you can do this. Even our local public school has some independent research options for top students in science. I would guess that the top colleges are used to seeing this sort of thing. If your son decides to apply here, when the time comes, you can talk to the admissions department and they will tell you what they want to see from international students. You can even write a few emails now, if you want. We did this early on and changed our strategy accordingly. Make sure you say all the things you said here so they know that they are dealing with someone who covered much of the basic high school science before high school and that science and math competitions are involved.

 

If you were a us student,the requirements would probably include sat scores and certain sat2 (subject) tests. This isso that the college can compare apples to apples. They want these even from students who have ap scores. You would also need to make a transcript. Do you have these? I "translated" my children,s odd educational experience into a standard transcript by breaking the work up into courses or projects, assigning them an equivalent amount of credit based on time spent or material covered, and then giving the project or course the most descriptive title I could come up with. Then I listed the courses and projects by subject - science, math, literature, etc. listing this way allowed the weirder titles to be pegged easily and allowed one to see at a glance how much work hadbeen done in each area. I used super scripts to indicate which items included extensive travel or were taken at the community college or included lab work. I included a separate "subject" called something like "high school level work completed before 9th grade". I included an overview that explained how I had done the translation, and a list of course descriptions.

 

Hth

Nan

 

Thanks, Nan.  Good idea to call a university, but would a place like Stanford even talk to me given my kid is 13?  I kind of assumed that they wouldn't. 

 

As for additional exams he would have to take, they aren't offered here so I am sure they would have some other option for us.  He will be taking NZ exams in English, Chemistry, and Physics.  He will take the HSK for Mandarin (this is a Chinese exam, equivalent of the ESOL).  He will likely earn a diploma from ABRSM in music before high school is over (this is out of the UK and is university work), and will have IMO scores for Math (which I assume will be the star of the show). If they want more testing than that, they are likely out of luck. :001_smile:  He will have exams from 4 different countries. :001_huh:

 

I guess my confusion over the transcript has to do with matching the lab work to the high school science classes.  Can I say Physics with Lab?  When his 'lab' work would be timing traffic lights in middle school and investigating AI in highschool?  Can I say he has Biology with Lab?  When his big microscope project was done in 5th grade and now he is working on the mathematics of Neural nets?  Can I say Chemistry with Lab? when the beaker and Bunsen burner type work was done over 2 days and all other 'lab' work was researching the pollution level of cars so that he could theorize how many tons of pollution he could say by improving the traffic light timings?  And where do we count his 1st place prize in Oceanography?  This was major lab work out in a 50 degree ocean wearing 2 wetsuits and jumping large waves in 40km winds. He is not even studying earth science in high school. Writing something like:

 

9th AP physics with lab

10th high school chemistry with lab

11th AP chemistry with lab

12th AP biology with lab

 

implies something that was not done, I think.  But perhaps it does not matter.  He has done all high school lab work in middle school, and now is talking about doing AI research in high school while concurrently working his way through traditional science textbooks in Physics, Chemistry, and Biology.  The 2 just don't really line up.

[foxbridgeacademy]

I wouldn't think you would need him to look like every other student.  He's advanced, he doesn't fit in a box, so let him stand out.  I think places like Stanford and MIT would be able to see that your son is capable and has a full pre-college education and then some.  As for talking to them, I say give it a try. Call first to find out exactly who you need to email (general admissions probably won't do). Then Let them know what he's done so far and what he is expected to do in the future and that you would like to know if this plan is missing things that would keep him from being accepted to their school. 

[lewelma]

I wouldn't think you would need him to look like every other student.  He's advanced, he doesn't fit in a box, so let him stand out.  I think places like Stanford and MIT would be able to see that your son is capable and has a full pre-college education and then some.  As for talking to them, I say give it a try. Call first to find out exactly who you need to email (general admissions probably won't do). Then Let them know what he's done so far and what he is expected to do in the future and that you would like to know if this plan is missing things that would keep him from being accepted to their school. 

 

Thanks for this.  How do I figure out who to email if it is not general admissions?  Who exactly do I need to talk to?

[8filltheheart]

I think foxbridgeacademy gave you the best advice. I don't think any of us can answer the question for you. MIT has bio, chem, and physics listed on their courses high school students should take. They are pretty serious about bio and require all students to take it to graduate. http://web.mit.edu/catalog/overv.chap3-gir.html. Since they require their undergrads to be fairly rounded, only they can tell you how they would view what you are describing.

 

I would think you could talk to any admissions officer or perhaps one who works directly with international students.

 

(And no, I wouldn't say you could include his labs from 5th grade to say he did standard high school labs. But that is simply my perspective. I guess I just really doubt an admissions officer is going to take that conversation seriously as much as what he did was incredibly educational and research oriented. I think this going to have to be quantified by the program you describe for high school.)

[lewelma]

I think foxbridgeacademy gave you the best advice. I don't think any of us can answer the question for you.

But you guys are giving me lots to think about which I really appreciate

 

 

MIT has bio, chem, and physics listed on their courses high school students should take. They are pretty serious about bio and require all students to take it to graduate. http://web.mit.edu/catalog/overv.chap3-gir.html. Since they require their undergrads to be fairly rounded, only they can tell you how they would view what you are describing.

He is doing Bio, just in a nontraditional way over 4 years. This year, he has been taking a coursera class in Brain Anatomy. And next year, I think he was planning to dabble in Biochem. I will just keep track of hours and award him a credit over 4 years, as I have seen others do. But I had no idea that some places *require* bio, chem, and phy. That is really good to know.

  

 

(And no, I wouldn't say you could include his labs from 5th grade to say he did standard high school labs. But that is simply my perspective. I guess I just really doubt an admissions officer is going to take that conversation seriously as much as what he did was incredibly educational and research oriented. I think this going to have to be quantified by the program you describe for high school.)

I completely agree. It would goofy to list a 5th grade project. But I know what he did was high school level, and I was a high school biology teacher. He learned how to use a pathologist microscope, make slides, measure under the microscope, and identify all organisms to phyla level (And sometimes class level which is actually pretty hard when they are so little). He collected water from 4 different locations, and asked which water contained the most diversity. Lots of scientific method, sampling issues, graphing, note taking, write up, poster presentations, and oral presentation (with questions) in front of 200 people. Kind of hard not to see it as a high school project. But no, I would not even bring it up. Sigh. Seems pretty idiotic to do the entire project again when he was older just so he could tick a box.

 

However, his 6th grade project that won 1st should count IMHO. Especially if he skips a grade, so it would be a 7th grade project. Main problem is that it is in earth science which he will not be taking in high school.

[8filltheheart]

But I had no idea that some places *require* bio, chem, and phy. That is really good to know.

 

 

That is pretty normal, actually.  Stanford says the same.   From their website: http://admission.stanford.edu/basics/selection/prepare.html

• Science: three or more years of laboratory science (including biology, chemistry and physics).

(ETA: it isn't so much as required as more normal and typically expected)

[lewelma]

That is pretty normal, actually.  Stanford says the same.   From their website: http://admission.stanford.edu/basics/selection/prepare.html

• Science: three or more years of laboratory science (including biology, chemistry and physics).

(ETA: it isn't so much as required as more normal and typically expected)

 

Not true here. Like in the UK, you are expected to specialize somewhat in high school. And they only consider exam subjects in the last 2 years of high school to be 'real'. So not many kids would take exams in all three sciences in the last 2 years.

 

It is very hard to make a child's education fit more than 1 country's requirements. Sigh

[8filltheheart]

Do you think he would enjoy undergrad here?   What is he going to think of all the gen ed/core curriculum requirements.   If he wants to specialize so much now, I can't imagine he will like the leap back to a core.

[foxbridgeacademy]

How long is the Anatomy class for?  Is there any way to fit in a "lab" (doesn't have to be strictly Brain anatomy) in the next 4 years? The same with BioChem, include a lab and call each a semester of Advanced Biology with Lab.

 

I would call General Admissions and get hte name, number, and email of the person over International Admissions.  The requirements for an international student may differ from a local.

[lewelma]

Perhaps what I don't understand is how flexible some of these 'requirements' are? How often are nontraditional students accepted? My son is not that nontraditional, but different enough that box ticking will be somewhat tricky.

 

Perhaps someone could link me to some nontraditional homeschooler's blogs demonstrating how they navigated the hoop jumping. I know that unschoolers have made it into Harvard, so it must be possible. You would just need to sell it.

 

 

(ETA: it isn't so much as required as more normal and typically expected)

So *this* is what I really want to know. If you are generally well rounded but missing a thing or two, but you have one really big and awesome achievement, are the normal and typically-expected requirements waived. Like no Biology for example in an otherwise great transcript with an IMO medal.

[lewelma]

Do you think he would enjoy undergrad here?   What is he going to think of all the gen ed/core curriculum requirements.   If he wants to specialize so much now, I can't imagine he will like the leap back to a core.

Very good point. Right now at age 13 he just want to go to the local school down the road. I'm just not convinced that it has the math department he needs. And Auckland is much more applied math than he is interested in. So my guess is he will go to Australia. I'm just starting this search, very much a newbie here. I saved a thread about evaluating math departments (because not all of them are created equal) so will need to go dig that up and read it.

 

I am really just trying to make sure that if he does really well at the IMO and decides that he wants to go to a top university, that he will have the proper high school requirements to get in. I don't want any 'if only we had...'

 

Thanks, 8, for the insight.

[lewelma]

How long is the Anatomy class for?  Is there any way to fit in a "lab" (doesn't have to be strictly Brain anatomy) in the next 4 years? The same with BioChem, include a lab and call each a semester of Advanced Biology with Lab.

Oh I am sure we could come up with a biology lab. My younger is planning to do field research this summer in the Alpine regions of the local mountain range. He wants to identify the effects of trail making on the diversity of plants in the Alpine zone. We will go live at a hut for a couple of weeks and collect data. Older can just come an help. Bio lab work done.

 

Really, my older boy leads such a full life and loves to learn that I am sure we could just cobble something together.

 

For example, he was highly involved in the bow and arrow physics project that a neighborhood friend was working on (I was the advisor for it). So I can count that as his mechanics lab for physics.

 

We just do so much science here, I guess I just need to think about how to organize it in a way that it would be recognized.

 

 

I would call General Admissions and get hte name, number, and email of the person over International Admissions. The requirements for an international student may differ from a local.

Got it. Thanks.

 

So if admission's requirements is school specific (which it is not here. All schools admission is the same), then seems like I need to research USA schools with the best math programs for undergrads. Can anyone give me a list?

[Kathy in Richmond]

Admissions at MIT and Stanford are holistic, so nothing is set in stone. More importantly, though, is that acceptance rates are so tiny these days, and even more so for international applicants, that I personally would recommend satisfying all suggested admissions requirements. You don't want to give them any kind of reason not to admit him. We took any "optional" or "recommended" hints on the admissions sites seriously here. :001_smile:

 

Recommended Preparation for MIT

They list bio, chem, and physics.

 

International Applicants to MIT

They are need blind and meet full need for internationals, one of the handful of schools with such a sweet deal. But (and this is a huge but), they are limited to selecting at most 150 students out of 4000 international applicants annually. An IMO gold medal helps for sure, but even that might not suffice.

 

Note the testing req's for internationals: SAT or ACT, and 2 SAT Subject tests (1 math, 1 science). No exceptions or substitutions, unless SATs aren't available in your country.

 

MIT Advice for Homeschooled Applicants - It's a good idea to look this over, also, in addition to the whole MIT admissions website.

 

Recommended preparation for Stanford

also wants to see bio, chem, physics in high school.

 

International Applicants to Stanford

Stanford is need aware for internationals, so if you need financial aid, it'll be more difficult to gain admission. They do meet full need (very well, with no loans) for those they take, though.

 

Again, SAT or ACT is required.

 

Stanford Advice for Homeschooled Applicants

I took this seriously for dd. They're trying to tell you what they're looking for here.

 

Admissions Officers for Stanford listed by region

Looks like Joe Kralick covers New Zealand. His contact info is on there, so why not send your questions to him? This is a relatively quiet time of the year for them.

 

On a personal note, I do know of two unschooled kids (both specialists; not my kids) who attended MIT.

 

The first kid was selected for the USA Olympiad training camps in both math and CS. If I recall correctly, he medaled in CS internationally. He worked through standard AP level bio, chem, calc-based physics textbooks in high school, taking lots of SAT 2 and AP tests in math and science (only) to make his case. He had no foreign language at all in high school. He did super well at MIT.

 

The second kid concentrated on his science & math research projects, winning some major national awards at ISEF and was a Davidson Fellow. He crammed for the AP exams for a week or two before testing, and his results were a mix of 3, 4, and 5's. I know from talking to him back during math team days that he did have major knowledge gaps. He did not have an easy time at all at MIT.

 

So I'd definitely recommend completing the AP versions of the basic sciences in addition to science fair projects. Not just for application purposes, but for success once matriculated!

 

The freshman GIRs at MIT (general institute req's) cover bio, chem, and physics. The *non* honors versions are much, much tougher than AP courses. Biology, for example, is said to cover the AP bio curriculum in the first few *weeks* and then go into more depth. I've personally taken the MITx MOOC in physics (same as the GIR course) and it was challenging for me *after* teaching AP Physics C several times. The psets are so tough!

 

Stanford has more choice in course selection once you're there since it's not a tech university. There are more breadth requirements, but also more flexibility in how to satisfy them. Lots more reading and writing required over the four years.

 

I personally don't see labs as an admissions stumbling point for you. I think (just my opinion, though) that labs are one place where they might cut your son some slack, given his extensive project work. Those projects should be enough to cover that part of the requirement, but I wouldn't include middle school stuff. You can describe in detail what he did in your course descriptions when the time comes. I'm betting that it would look better than the standard high school labs by far. In fact, you'll likely wow them!

 

Lack of APs will not hold your son back, either. He has plenty of other stuff to cover that area. Even if you do APs, it's not necessary to go through the course audits unless you personally find it beneficial (won't help you in admissions).

 

Other things these two schools will look for are (1) ability to work in and/or lead groups of peers, both academically and socially, and (2) giving back to the community, which can be lots of different things. Letters of recommendation speaking to those qualities are extremely valuable in admissions.

 

Finally, some other destinations in the US for top math students are Princeton, Harvard, Chicago, Berkeley, Caltech, Brown (applied math), Duke, Carnegie Mellon. For LACs look at Harvey Mudd, Williams, Swarthmore. I'm probably missing some here...

 

If it makes a difference, the only schools that are both need blind *and* meet full financial need for internationals are Amherst, Dartmouth, MIT, Harvard, Princeton, and Yale.

[lewelma]

Wow Kathy! This is incredibly helpful. I'm currently trolling through math department websites.

I like the idea of need blind and full financial need. :001_smile:  I can't fathom the cost to send a student to university internationally. People complain here that it costs $5000/year for university.  (excluding room and board, because most people live at home).  My son does have US citizenship.  Not sure if that matters.

 

Just looked and Fulbright NZ offers the SAT and SAT2 tests multiple times a year in my city.  :001_huh:  Ah, the things you learn.

 

 

[lewelma]

Ok, next thought.  DS might be applying early if he goes locally, and would have already completed the first year of a 3 year math undergrad degree (no liberal arts year here).  This would give him an undergrad in math at age 19, unless he did an honors year (like a short masters). Perhaps this would be a better age to travel internationally to study. What do grad schools in mathematics look for in the admission process?

[Kathy in Richmond]

If he has US citizenship, then I'm pretty sure he that he'd just apply in the normal way. That would be something that would be worth calling the admissions offices to check, though. It also opens doors to a greater chance of financial aid. More info here!

 

 

[Kathy in Richmond]

Ok, next thought.  DS might be applying early if he goes locally, and would have already completed the first year of a 3 year math undergrad degree (no liberal arts year here).  This would give him an undergrad in math at age 19, unless he did an honors year (like a short masters). Perhaps this would be a better age to travel internationally to study. What do grad schools in mathematics look for in the admission process?

 

Grad schools like to see high GRE scores, research, and great letters of recommendation from professors.

[lewelma]

Those projects should be enough to cover that part of the requirement, but I wouldn't include middle school stuff.

 

Even though each project won a major award for the *entire* regional fair grades 6 to 12? He won the Math award for the oceanography project from the Department of Mathematics, Statistics, and Operations Research at the sponsoring university, and the Methodology award for the traffic engineering project from Callaghan Innovation, the major R&D government agency.

 

I know that people say only count middle school foreign language and math, but these science awards are at a high school level.

[Kathy in Richmond]

Even though each project won a major award for the *entire* regional fair grades 6 to 12? He won the math award for the oceanography project and the methodology award for the Traffic Engineering project.

 

I know that people say only count middle school foreign language and math, but these science awards are at a high school level.

 

Oops, I missed that by reading too fast. If his projects won a grade 6 to 12 fair, then I would most definitely include them! :001_smile: That *is* impressive!

[lewelma]

Ok, that makes more sense.  I just went back and added the agencies that gave the awards, which makes them seem more impressive I'm guessing.

 

He won 1st in Class (6th grade) and 3rd in Class (7th grade), but the Math and Methodology awards were for the entire grade 6-12 fair.

[Penguin]

[snip]

 

It is very hard to make a child's education fit more than 1 country's requirements. Sigh

 

Ruth, I have a different flavor of the same problem. I am trying to keep the door open for both IB in Denmark and a U.S. high school diploma. Makes for a tricky 8th grade year, and an even trickier 9th grade year (Pre-IB is 10th grade).

 

No need to assume international student status. My son (U.S. citizen) graduated from an international IB school, but he was not considered an international student by any of the American universities to which he applied. Sometimes it was easy to tell from the application, but when it wasn't we called and asked.

[RootAnn]

Because the US colleges aren't probably going to be his first pick, I disagree with this one small part of Kathy's post:

 

More importantly, though, is that acceptance rates are so tiny these days, and even more so for international applicants, that I personally would recommend satisfying all suggested admissions requirements. You don't want to give them any kind of reason not to admit him. 

 

While acceptance rates are small, the road this boy has already gone down is so different, I'd *celebrate* the differences. That might include having to put a letter with his transcript explaining what his "lab sciences" in high school were like as well as something about the middle school project & their awards. The fact that he's a go-getter and has (at that point) worked with "mentors" on such interesting projects throughout middle and high school (math & science) shows the type of kid who might excel at working with university professors on research (which, IMO, is really what some universities care about the most).

 

I don't think you'll need to repackage his transcript, but make sure the wrapping paper is REALLY snazzy.

[Lavandula]

I don't really know much about Princeton's science program, but they offer the same financial aid to international students as they do to US students, and their financial aid is supposed to be pretty good. 

 

I didn't see if anyone else answered, but definitely don't shy away from talking to colleges! We've sent many emails to different colleges, probably starting when DD was 13/14. We've always gotten a response within a few days to a week, except from one college which is now off dd's top choices list anyway. 

 

A lot of times people call things requirements when they aren't. With private colleges I've found that a lot of times the things are more suggestions. Yes, most students who will end up going there have had 4 years of certain sciences w/ labs. But there are most definitely kids who get in from their own unique paths. 

 

Personally I think what he's doing sounds really interesting and impressive. I'd email or call the universities and ask though.

 

eta: I didn't mention Princeton as if I think he should go there just because the aid is good. I know it's a good school that's strong in many fields.

[Arcadia]

It is very hard to make a child's education fit more than 1 country's requirements. Sigh

 

ETA:

Since your son has dual citizenship, you'll have to check with admissions. My own country only allow single citizenship so that makes it very clear cut.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

What about writing the transcript to indicate that a separate independent study research project was done each year in lieu of traditional labs. I think this is perhaps an example where multiple credits in a subject each year could be justified. So biology AND independent research project: beach erosion or chemistry and independent research project xyz.

 

Use the course descriptions to discuss the level of detail and time the projects involved. In the school profile discuss the fact that annual independent research projects included the traditional lab goals (inquiry, observation and analysis).

[hepatica]

It seems to me that admission to the most select universities in the US has become increasingly capricious. There are plenty of students who check all the boxes, have all the test scores and extra curricular activities and still do not gain admission to their top choice. It would seem to be a waste of your son's heretofore remarkable education to spend high school going backward and taking a traditional HS science sequence. So I totally agree with you that you should focus on the packaging (of course I don't have kids of college age quite yet, so my advice is worth exactly nothing :))

 

I would think of this situation the same as other advanced or prodigious students. The basic lab skills were completed in middle school and high school. Make a list of those lab skills (as you did up thread with the biology skills) and show how he developed those skills in his research projects. If there are any basic lab skills missing, then focus on finding a way to incorporate those into your HS plans (although it looks like you already have that planned). Then show how he has moved beyond basic core courses with his current research. I really think this is one of the great benefits of homeschooling. advanced students are able to complete core courses when they are ready and move on to doing real work in their field of interest. As a previous poster said, celebrate that accomplishment.

 

The other point I would make is that wherever he chooses to go he is going to be looking for a place that will mentor and support his research area. His focus may change as he grows up over the next few years, but I would think these years are a good opportunity to cultivate relationships with researchers in his field of interest. Find out who is doing work in that field. There's no point in jumping through all the hoops for admission to Princeton when the people working in your field are all at Ga Tech or MIT or somewhere else. At his level, establishing a clear field of interest, working with an experienced and knowledgeable  mentor at home, and communicating with other researchers in that field across the world will make much more difference than whether he took a traditional science sequence.  

 

 

[Nan in Mass]

lewelma - I really like Sebastian's and Hepatica's advice. And of course, Kathy's advice, having been there, is really important. I am only in this conversation because we did something atypical for high school, NOT because I have any experience with top uni's. My youngest's experience most closely resembles what you are doing, and it doesn't really come close. He's at an entirely different level. I did, however, deal with some of the issues you are dealing with - I had to find a way to make a packet of paperwork that accurately reflected what my son did while at the same time allowing uni's to compare my son to their other students, and I had to find a way to prepare my son for uni while at the same time giving him the education that he needed (these didn't always line up).

 

In the end, my son chose a university that was very used to dealing with international students and homeschoolers and lopsided students. Their application process and the admissions people were able easily to deal with our situation. They were happy to speak to both me and my son and instead of being cagy and mysterious about the application process, they were clear on what they wanted to see and what would not be an advantage. Admissions gets tricky when your child sets his heart on one particular place and that place is rather unique in its approach. At that point, not only are you trying to tick the boxes, but you are trying to guess what other unlisted boxes exist that other students are ticking and that will put your student at a disadvantage if left unticked. For example, my son's uni did not require APs or subject SATs, even from homeschoolers. We wondered if most other applicants would have subject SAT scores and therefore look like safer bet and that my fairly ordinary son (no awards here : ) ) would be at a disadvantage if he didn't have them. When we called and asked, they said bluntly not to take them for their sake, which was nice and clear. I had to do two things - show that my son could manage their classes and show them that they wanted to pick my son. If you are dealing with the top college, they will be used to dealing with "interesting" students who come with something other than a US high school transcript, the typical US standardized test scores, recommendations from a high school guidance counselor and a high school teacher. They should be able to tell you what you will and will not need.

 

I think you should label your transcript "High School Level Work" and include anything that was high school level. If your son were applying to one of the big, overcrowded, underfunded state universities, then I would say that the right strategy would be to try to make the transcript look just like everyone elses', to write "Physics with lab", etc., and not worry about the fact that the material was covered in an atypical way, and list all the awards in the extra curricular activities section at the bottom. Or something. But you aren't. You are considering applying to universities where many students do independent projects. You have two choices for where you will include something in a typical high school transcript - the course section and the extra curricular activities section. Some people use the strategy of just putting the high school level course work in the course work section and then listing all the projects and awards in the extra curricular activities section. I chose not to do that. My children's projects and travel were an integral part of their education and they had gymnastics and sailing and hobbies for their extra curricular activities. I listed the projects under "coures" with the words "independent project" in their title. I used the number of credits awarded to indicate the length of time and the difficulty of the project. There are lots of threads here discussing how to award credit using Carnegy (Carnegie?) units, which seems to be fairly standard.

 

In order to be efficient with my son's time, I picked a strategy for college applications and preparation and stuck to it. I chose to:

List projects as courses rather than extra curricular activities on his transcript

Try to make his transcript show off his uniqueness rather than show that he was like other students (risky because it made it more difficult for uni's to assess my student at a glance)

Try to be as transparent as possible about how I wrote the transcript (risky because it required uni's to spend more time on his application and because they might not understand or believe me)

Pick the SAT (rather than the ACT) as a standardized test

Pick community college classes as a way to show outside validation of the academic abilities I was claiming on his transcript (rather than AP tests, subject SAT test, some other form of standardized testing, or some other outside-the-home class)

Pick community college classes to provide him the classroom experience he needed in order to survive university (as opposed to some other outside class or trying to simulate the classroom at home)

Pick community college classes to fill in the holes in his science knowledge (as opposed to prepping for a standardized test or taking other outside classes in science or doing science at home in a more typical method)

Not try to do "school at home" for high school but rather count on community college classes the last few years to provide classroom prep and a standardized knowledge base and continue to do education in the way that suited us best at home, which involved large projects and a much more loose structure

 

When universities assess your son, they will want to know if he can do survive work and they will want to know if he will be a credit to them. His awards and recommendations will tell them the second part. It is the first part that you need to worry about. In my son's case, for engineering school, this boiled down to wanting to see his community college physics grade (they had chem grades and math grades already). I think maybe the top universities use SAT scores as a first sort of applications and that is why they all want those. (Or ACT? I don't know much about those because SAT is more common in my region.) After that, they look at the applications more individually. In the end, they have enough qualified applicants to fill a class several times over and they focus on building a strong, diverse class and on fulfilling the particular year's needs. It is commonly believed that if they need a student from Alaska in order to boast that they have a students from all 50 states and the oboe player in their symphony is graduating, they will accept an Alaskan oboe player rather than the student who did extensive cancer research. This is what people mean when they say that acceptence to top colleges is a "lottery". Will your son have math mentors? What might happen is that one of his mentors is friends with someone in the math Stanford or MIT math department and arranges for that person to put pressure on admissions to accept your son.

 

I think you are wise to investigate this now. That is what I did and it resulted in my picking an application strategy early on, on that allowed us to do the least amount of not-essential-to-education work possible. By deciding what we were going to do early, I could focus on the education my sons needed rather than the application process. If you want your children to go to university, it is stupid to ignore that transition until the time arrives, but it seemed to me to be equally stupid to waste the high school years jumping through hoops and ticking boxes when we could be doing something much more interesting and effective, education-wise (for my particular children, anyway). I would much rather focus on education while giving some consideration to preparing my children to survive university once there and take advantage of its opportunities. That meant at some point making sure they had classroom skills, textbook skills, social skills, and the same knowledge and skill base as their classmates, more or less, since that is where their new professors will start.

 

I like the idea of making a list of lab skills and general science knowledge and making sure your son has covered most of them at some point in his education. I know that biology projects cover a lot of the biology textbook. Youngest's experience echos this. We did biology via reading and natural history projects, topped it off with an almost totally useless semester of intro bio at the community college, and then dumped him (or rather, he dumped himself) into a human anatomy and physiology class at his university. I was worried. The last human stuff we'd done was go through the Body Works display at the science museum and before that, we'd just done a little in third grade, at grade level. It was no problem at all. The holes in his math and physics caused more problems. His tutors had to fix those. (Good thing he didn't need a certain grade point average to keep his scholarship, and it is a good thing tutoring is so common.) He should be ok now. Anyway, my point is that for the top universities, making sure he has the knowledge and skills is more important than ticking off the application boxes or worrying too much over how to make the transcript, I think. Keep track of everything you do. Part of what my husband does for a living is help companies fill out government applications rather like the university application system. He says that you can translate one format (fifth grade natural history project) into another format (high school bio with lab) as long as you use a consistent method throughout and include an explanation of exactly how you did the translation.

 

Nan

[Reefgazer]

You could list one "biology with lab" credit on his transcript, noting that it was completed before 9th grade and the grade wasn't used to calculate high school GPA.  But I would also call admissions at a few of your targeted colleges and ask if high-school level courses taken before high school can be listed for credit on the transcript.  Some may be OK with that, and some might not; in fact, that info might be right on the college webpage.   

But you guys are giving me lots to think about which I really appreciate
 

He is doing Bio, just in a nontraditional way over 4 years. This year, he has been taking a coursera class in Brain Anatomy. And next year, I think he was planning to dabble in Biochem. I will just keep track of hours and award him a credit over 4 years, as I have seen others do. But I had no idea that some places *require* bio, chem, and phy. That is really good to know.
  

I completely agree. It would goofy to list a 5th grade project. But I know what he did was high school level, and I was a high school biology teacher. He learned how to use a pathologist microscope, make slides, measure under the microscope, and identify all organisms to phyla level (And sometimes class level which is actually pretty hard when they are so little). He collected water from 4 different locations, and asked which water contained the most diversity. Lots of scientific method, sampling issues, graphing, note taking, write up, poster presentations, and oral presentation (with questions) in front of 200 people. Kind of hard not to see it as a high school project. But no, I would not even bring it up. Sigh. Seems pretty idiotic to do the entire project again when he was older just so he could tick a box.

However, his 6th grade project that won 1st should count IMHO. Especially if he skips a grade, so it would be a 7th grade project. Main problem is that it is in earth science which he will not be taking in high school.

 

[Nan in Mass]

I think this might be a little like the problem of listing math classes on a high school transcript. If a university says it wants the transcript to contain only the last four years of classes and wants to see four years of math on the transcript and that it wants to see math through pre-calc, a typical US high school student will list algebra 2, geometry, pre-calc, and calc. Nobody wonders why he doesn't have algebra 1 on his transcript. If he started the typical US math sequence with algebra 1 in 9th grade and only got through pre-calc, the university will consider his transcript (he meets the requirements) but he might be at a disadvantage because many other students will have taken calculus. Whether he is accepted will depend on whether he has something else particularly desirable about him and how common it is for the other applicants to have taken calc in high school. If the student is advanced and interested in math, his four year sequence might start with calculus or beyond calculus. Only idiotic schools that wouldn't interest you will be worried about the fact that there is no algebra on your transcript. It might be wise to include a note saying that the prereq for all the listed math classes is calculus (or whatever), in case the admissions person isn't mathy enough to recognize that these topics are beyond the typical high school math sequence. The real problems, in this case, are when a student completes the typical high school math classes early and wants to STOP there and take more music classes or something instead. Then it becomes more difficult for the university to check its boxes. I think this probably still is not a problem. I'd just make very sure I asked the university about it. Our oldest decided not to take calc in 12th grade and his high school guidance counselor said ok, but he had to take a super easy statistics instead so he'd have four years of high school math. Then he did plumbing for three years and after that, when he applied to university, the admissions people said that they would not have taken him without that statistics class. So ask. : ) But it might work for you to list whatever science projects and classes he has done/is doing during the four "high school" years and just make a note that these are advanced classes and that your student did high school chem, bio, and physics before beginning high school. Will his standardized testing back that up? Does it include bio, chem, and physics? Will he do something during high school that could be considered an advanced chem topic, an advanced bio topic, and an advanced physics topic? (But remember - I'm just trying to help you figure out what to ask admissions, since I haven't done this.)

 

Nan

[Butler]

Lewelma,

 

We have had a lot of experience here with the kind of issues you are researching. My son applied to universities at 14, and while I never considered him a "specialist" (had actually never heard of that term before now) he was extremely top heavy in math (4-5 credits in English, sciences, history etc, but iirc 12 math credits) His transcript was most definitely non-traditional. I was emailing and calling admissions counselors since before he was 13, and never had any problems with getting information and advice due to his age.

 

One of the best pieces of advice we got was to list his courses/credits by subject rather than year. This helps to avoid the whole issue of whether something was done pre-highschool age or grade. If it was highschool or college level it was included on my son's transcript. (Mine was grade skipped several times so a lot of his credits, though done early, we're done in the "high school years", but I would still think this approach would be beneficial to your son.)

 

It sounds like your son will have to apply with a portfolio (if applying to US schools) since many of his credits will come from research and not an outside provider. This will require more work from you but will make it much easier for you to explain his situation.

 

My son is gearing up to start the grad school admissions process soon. My knowledge (through him from his advisors) is that grad school in pure math relies heavily on courses taken in undergrad, GPA and letters of recommendation. Research is not as heavily weighted in pure math as it would be in a subject like physics. There are summer programs my son has attended but they are more course/subject related as opposed to the typical REU's you find for other subjects. If I were you (and it sounds like you are doing this) I would really research the courses available at whichever undergraduate school he attends. He needs to make sure there are enough offerings at the right level for him. All of the undergraduates that my son knows that have gone onto grad school in math have taken graduate level courses. It's almost a requirement I believe.

 

The search for grad school will be very different than for undergrad. This is where your son will narrow down the field to that which he explicitly wants to study. The highest ranked and competitive program for a specific field will not necessarily match the overall ranking and competetiveness for the university as a whole. it will also be dependant on the individual under whom he wants to study.