Actor v. Actress for Women

[umsami]

Am I the only one bothered by the trend to use actor by female actors over actress? I get why they started doing it…to be gender neutral.  But to me, there should be nothing wrong, nothing less, about being a proud woman actress.    

 

It's kind of like how (at least in Islam) God is supposed to be neither male nor female, but if you dare to call God a Goddess, well then, all heck breaks out.  

 

Why is something that denotes femaleness somehow less? And shouldn't that be reclaimed rather than agreeing that it is somehow less?

[shukriyya]

Am I the only one bothered by the trend to use actor by female actors over actress? I get why they started doing it…to be gender neutral. But to me, there should be nothing wrong, nothing less, about being a proud woman actress.

 

It's kind of like how (at least in Islam) God is supposed to be neither male nor female, but if you dare to call God a Goddess, well then, all heck breaks out.

 

Why is something that denotes femaleness somehow less? And shouldn't that be reclaimed rather than agreeing that it is somehow less?

:lol: at your God/Goddess example.

 

The grammarian in me is irked by the standardizing of the 'actor' title. I make a point to distinguish between the two.

 

I do like your thought process on this. It speaks to something beyond the scope of actor/actress, an ongoing dialogue that needs to continue.

[Greta]

My understanding is that the word actor was originally, and has always been, gender neutral, just like singer. So inventing the new word actress was unnecessary. It isn't a new thing for women actors to want to be called actors.

[poppy]

I think Actor is gender neutral, not male.

Like host/hostess. Either term can be respectfully applied to a woman.

[Ewe Mama]

Just call them thespians and have done with it.

[marbel]

I don't know; I think it's kind of silly but maybe that is a function of my age.  I still have to correct myself and not say "mailman," "fireman" etc because those were the words we used most of my life.  I know the actor/actress thing is different.

 

I don't see the big deal of using waitress, actress, stewardess, etc.  But I also don't see the big deal over using the male singular pronoun as the default rather than "he/she" or "he or she" or my least favorite, "s/he" because I grew up understanding that was just the convention in English and was meant to encompass both male and female.   I never found it offensive or putting the woman down and I have taught my daughter the same thing (though for all I know it bugs her but she knows better than to say so).  

 

LOL I feel really old now. 

[redsquirrel]

I think actress is a relatively new and diminutive word of the previously standard word of actor. It is seen as being dismissive.

 

I was informed by an elderly lady years ago that the proper term is 'suffragist' not 'suffragette' because suffragette was a term used to deride the women involved. It was to make them sound 'slight and silly, like  children'.  She was quite firm on the matter and seeing as she lived it and not me I took her at her word. I have often thought that the actress vs actor thing is similar.

 

 

Or like 'male nurse' or 'lady doctor', the terms nurse and  doctor do not assign gender to begin with and so don't need it pointed out. My step-father isn't a 'male nurse', he proud to be a nurse. My friends are not an actor and actress, they are a family of actors.

[marbel]

I think actress is a relatively new and diminutive word of the previously standard word of actor. It is seen as being dismissive.

 

<snip>

 

Or like 'male nurse' or 'lady doctor', the terms nurse and  doctor do not assign gender to begin with and so don't need it pointed out. My step-father isn't a 'male nurse', he proud to be a nurse. My friends are not an actor and actress, they are a family of actors.

 

Huh, I never knew that.  Interesting. 

 

Re: male nurse. I don't hear that anymore but used to sometimes; probably when it was nursing was an unusual career choice for a man.  I've never heard the term "lady doctor" though. 

 

Completely off-topic, but I have occasion to write letters to a (male) nurse practitioner one of my kids sees.  I never know what title to use:  "Dear Nurse Smith" sounds odd for a male or female!   I go with "Mr." but it seems odd not to have a title.  In person I call him by his first name but in a letter I cannot help but be more formal. 

 

[Alessandra]

I prefer actor, even though I grew up saying actress. I have heard 'authoress' and not liked it, ditto 'Jewess.' When I think of those two words, actress seems less palatable than actor.

 

As an aside, I am irked that Girl Scouts, which has done away with so much good stuff in an attempt to be modern, uses 'Cadette' for 6th-8th graders.

[redsquirrel]

Huh, I never knew that.  Interesting. 

 

Re: male nurse. I don't hear that anymore but used to sometimes; probably when it was nursing was an unusual career choice for a man.  I've never heard the term "lady doctor" though. 

 

Completely off-topic, but I have occasion to write letters to a (male) nurse practitioner one of my kids sees.  I never know what title to use:  "Dear Nurse Smith" sounds odd for a male or female!   I go with "Mr." but it seems odd not to have a title.  In person I call him by his first name but in a letter I cannot help but be more formal. 

 

I have. I've heard it plenty from my step-father...the (male) nurse :001_rolleyes:  Whenever he says it I always say, "So, male nurse, how has work been?"

 

I prefer actor, even though I grew up saying actress. I have heard 'authoress' and not liked it, ditto 'Jewess.' When I think of those two words, actress seems less palatable than actor.

 

As an aside, I am irked that Girl Scouts, which has done away with so much good stuff in an attempt to be modern, uses 'Cadette' for 6th-8th graders.

 

shudder.

[shukriyya]

I think actress is a relatively new and diminutive word of the previously standard word of actor. It is seen as being dismissive.

 

 

It's almost as old as the word actor, the re-adoption of the gender-neutral is what's new. From the Wiki...

 

Terminology

After 1660 in England, when women first started to appear on stage, an actor or actress were initially used interchangeably for female performers, but later, influenced by the French 'actrice', actress became the usual term. The etymology is a simple derivation from actor with ess added. Within the profession, the re-adoption of the neutral term dates to the 1950s–60s, the post-war period when women's contribution to cultural life in general was being re-evaluated. Actress remains the common term used in major acting awards given to female recipients.

[Jane in NC]

Well I for one enjoy the use of the "trix" ending for women as in aviatrix.  But can you imagine someone referring you to see the company's administratrix? 

 

Back to the question:  I use "actress" from habit but understand why someone in the profession might prefer "actor".

[Laura Corin]

There's also the use of 'actress' in the past as a euphemism for call girl.  If you think back to Shakespeare's time, when the idea of a woman acting on the public stage was scandalous, the subsequent first actresses were definitely considered to be floozies.

 

L

[redsquirrel]

It's almost as old as the word actor, the re-adoption of the gender-neutral is what's new. From the Wiki...

 

Terminology

After 1660 in England, when women first started to appear on stage, an actor or actress were initially used interchangeably for female performers, but later, influenced by the French 'actrice', actress became the usual term. The etymology is a simple derivation from actor with ess added. Within the profession, the re-adoption of the neutral term dates to the 1950s–60s, the post-war period when women's contribution to cultural life in general was being re-evaluated. Actress remains the common term used in major acting awards given to female recipients.

 

I didn't think women were allowed on the stage in the 1660s. I wonder when it became a respectable profession for women. Or men, lol.

[Audrey]

As a (former) actor, I prefer to be called by the name of the profession, not a diminutive variant.  I've known women who have a preference for 'actress' or have no preference either way.  Amongst ourselves, we were all just actors.  No one ever makes a stage call with "actors and actresses to places, please" and no woman ever mistook "actors to places" to mean she didn't have to get off her butt and get on stage.  

 

However, it is one of those things, IMO, that if someone refers to themselves as actor instead of actress (or vice versa), you respect their wishes just as if someone says they prefer to be called Presbyterian instead of Protestant or Elizabeth instead of Lizzy.  That's just good manners.

[Lavandula]

As a (former) actor, I prefer to be called by the name of the profession, not a diminutive variant.  I've known women who have a preference for 'actress' or have no preference either way.  Amongst ourselves, we were all just actors.  No ever makes a stage call with "actors and actresses to places, please" and no woman ever mistook "actors to places" to mean she didn't have to get off her butt and get on stage.  

 

However, it is one of those things, IMO, that if someone refers to themselves as actor instead of actress (or vice versa), you respect their wishes just as if someone says they prefer to be called Presbyterian instead of Protestant or Elizabeth instead of Lizzy.  That's just good manners.

Said it better than I could.

 

I think the god/goddess thing is a bit different. Many people do get genuinely insulted by the idea that god is a woman. I find it usually is supposed to be gender neutral but lots of times people do refer to god as he and him anyway, and get angry if people do otherwise. That's just plain sexism in my eyes.

[Starr]

This is an old trend. I didn't pay attention, as actors were not my personal friends, before I lived in NYC. But 25 plus years ago everyone was referring to all actors as actors. Actress was only occasionally used. 

[wintermom]

I think that with this issue, and many others, being "politically correct" will annoy some people, really annoy others, and the rest just want to get on with the job at hand. In Canada, trying to find a name for our First Nations/Natives/Indians/Aboriginals that keeps everyone happy for more than a year is an impossibility. It gets really expensive to re-name Department of Native Affairs every 6 months. It's all good though, because most other government departments are also getting re-named for no apparent reason! :laugh: 

 

Can you picture the American Screen Actor's Guild buying new stationary, building signs, etc. every 6 months because someone becomes offended by being called an actor, and insists that Actress be included, then someone else gets offended because Actress is included? And another insists that it be called Thespian Guild? Welcome to Canada, where everyone's opinion (as long as they have political power) gets a turn at being the right one.

[Lavandula]

I think that with this issue, and many others, being "politically correct" will annoy some people, really annoy others, and the rest just want to get on with the job at hand. In Canada, trying to find a name for our First Nations/Natives/Indians/Aboriginals that keeps everyone happy for more than a year is an impossibility. It gets really expensive to re-name Department of Native Affairs every 6 months. It's all good though, because most other government departments are also getting re-named for no apparent reason! :laugh:

 

Can you picture the American Screen Actor's Guild buying new stationary, building signs, etc. every 6 months because someone becomes offended by being called an actor, and insists that Actress be included, then someone else gets offended because Actress is included? And another insists that it be called Thespian Guild? Welcome to Canada, where everyone's opinion (as long as they have political power) gets a turn at being the right one.

I really don't get this... It's not for no apparent reason. It's so we don't offend people. I've never seen anyone insist on any of the second half anyway. Some people simply don't want to be referred to as actresses. It takes me even less time to say the word actor, and I'm not bothering someone. I don't see why it's considered any trouble.

[Ellie]

Am I the only one bothered by the trend to use actor by female actors over actress? I get why they started doing it…to be gender neutral.  But to me, there should be nothing wrong, nothing less, about being a proud woman actress.    

 

It's kind of like how (at least in Islam) God is supposed to be neither male nor female, but if you dare to call God a Goddess, well then, all heck breaks out.  

 

Why is something that denotes femaleness somehow less? And shouldn't that be reclaimed rather than agreeing that it is somehow less?

 

Yup, bugs me, as well.

 

And there are things like "wait staff" instead of waiters/waitresses, which just sounds stupid; or not using "manhole" for those things by which you access underground utilities. Goodness.

 

I'm good with "flight attendant" instead of steward/stewardess, though. :-)

[poppy]

Our town is run by a Board of Selectman.  When a woman is elected, she is a referred to as a Selectman too.

Hey why not?

I do think actress is dumb, though.  Danceress? Authoress?  Pilotess?  Chefess?

[Lady Florida.]

My understanding is that the word actor was originally, and has always been, gender neutral, just like singer. 

 

Yes, this. I use the words interchangeably with no real reason for using one or the other. Mostly I just say actor. 

 

ETA: I haven't noticed a trend, possibly because I've often used the word actor regardless of gender.

[dirty ethel rackham]

When I hear "actress", I think Penny from the Big Bang Theory ... a pretty, somewhat dumb actor wannabe, not someone taken seriously in their profession.  I think actor makes much more sense. 

[StaceyinLA]

Well I'm kind of old-fashioned this way because I like the feminine ending; like prince and princess (;-p). I always use waiter/waitress, actor/actress, steward/stewardess, etc.

 

I don't see it as demeaning to embrace femininity, and can't understand why one would be taken less seriously if they actually embrace their gender instead of feeling they need to be neutral. Are women's rights only effective if women take a more gender neutral title, because, if so, that seems like a step in the wrong direction?

[poppy]

 

 

I don't see it as demeaning to embrace femininity, and can't understand why one would be taken less seriously if they actually embrace their gender instead of feeling they need to be neutral. Are women's rights only effective if women take a more gender neutral title, because, if so, that seems like a step in the wrong direction?

 

All actresses are actors.    Women who prefer the term actor are not rejecting their femininity.

 

 

 

[Audrey]

When I hear "actress", I think Penny from the Big Bang Theory ... a pretty, somewhat dumb actor wannabe, not someone taken seriously in their profession.  I think actor makes much more sense. 

 

 

I don't think that is a fair assumption at all.  All kinds of women will prefer 'actress' or use both 'actor' and 'actress' interchangeably. 

[wintermom]

I really don't get this... It's not for no apparent reason. It's so we don't offend people. I've never seen anyone insist on any of the second half anyway. Some people simply don't want to be referred to as actresses. It takes me even less time to say the word actor, and I'm not bothering someone. I don't see why it's considered any trouble.

 

What is the reason that some people get offended and some don't? In French, there are rules about feminine and masculine nouns. In English there are not. It sounds like it is a preference and not a reason.

 

[Lavandula]

What is the reason that some people get offended and some don't? In French, there are rules about feminine and masculine nouns. In English there are not. It sounds like it is a preference and not a reason.

 

A preference is a reason you shouldn't call someone something. If someone prefers not to be called something, I will not call them that. It is basic human decency in my opinion. Redsquirrel already stated the reason above.

[poppy]

 

 

I was informed by an elderly lady years ago that the proper term is 'suffragist' not 'suffragette' because suffragette was a term used to deride the women involved. It was to make them sound 'slight and silly, like  children'.  She was quite firm on the matter and seeing as she lived it and not me I took her at her word. I have often thought that the actress vs actor thing is similar.

This makes me think of "powder puff" football games. Which is not a big deal now that women's athletics are opened up so much more.  (Do they still even have them?) But the idea of girls on a field was a once-a-year joke in my childhood. 

[shukriyya]

What is the reason that some people get offended and some don't? In French, there are rules about feminine and masculine nouns. In English there are not. It sounds like it is a preference and not a reason.

 

 

Well, I'm offended by the fact that the words 'breast', 'vagina', 'uterus' and 'childbirth' among others, are all masculine nouns in the french language. That's just wrong ;)

[Farrar]

I don't say "doctress" so I don't say "actress."

[Ellie]

 

I don't see it as demeaning to embrace femininity, and can't understand why one would be taken less seriously if they actually embrace their gender instead of feeling they need to be neutral. Are women's rights only effective if women take a more gender neutral title, because, if so, that seems like a step in the wrong direction?

 

Apparently, yes.

[Caroline]

Well I for one enjoy the use of the "trix" ending for women as in aviatrix. But can you imagine someone referring you to see the company's administratrix?

 

Back to the question: I use "actress" from habit but understand why someone in the profession might prefer "actor".

Maybe I'll start referring to myself as Doctrix. I like that.

[poppy]

Apparently, yes.

 

Can you please explain how some people expressing preference for the term "actor" means women's rights are only effective if women take a gender neutral title? And it's also a step in the wrong direction? Because I am pretty baffled by that one, honestly.

[Farrar]

I find that a bit baffling too, honestly.  In some cases, women's roles need to be embraced and elevated - nurse, for example, shouldn't be a lesser job just because it is associated with women, homemaker should be a valued occupation, etc.  But this is just a question of linguistics.  And one where using the gender neutral term brings it in line with the vast majority of other occupations which are also gender neutral.  We say doctor, lawyer, artist, writer, athlete, scientist, etc. etc.  There are very, very few occupations with gender exclusive terms.

[wintermom]

Well, I'm offended by the fact that the words 'breast', 'vagina', 'uterus' and 'childbirth' among others, are all masculine nouns in the french language. That's just wrong ;)

 

Try a different language. They are bound to be feminine is some language. 

 

[umsami]

I don't say "doctress" so I don't say "actress."

 

Yes, but there never was a feminine term for doctors that was used in the U.S.  (However, in some languages there are, e.g. doutor, doutora.) 

 

 

Actor meant a male actor, it was not the gender neutral term.  That's why the term actress was used.  That's why one earns a "Best Actress" award.  (Came from the French, actrice (v. acteur for a male).)  

[shukriyya]

Try a different language. They are bound to be feminine is some language. 

 

 

That may well be but French is my second language thus the ridiculousness of ascribing the male gender to female body parts is particularly resonant.

[GailV]

Well I for one enjoy the use of the "trix" ending for women as in aviatrix.  But can you imagine someone referring you to see the company's administratrix? 

 

Back to the question:  I use "actress" from habit but understand why someone in the profession might prefer "actor".

 

Great, I now have "I'm Trix the aviatrix" stuck in my head on auto-repeat.  (Drowsy Chaperone.  But you knew that, right?)

[Jenny in Florida]

 (Drowsy Chaperone.  But you knew that, right?)

 

Well, I did, but given my kids' interests and career plans, I'm not allowed to not know such things.

[Jane in NC]

Maybe I'll start referring to myself as Doctrix. I like that.

Doctrix Caroline.  Nice ring to it, eh?

 

Great, I now have "I'm Trix the aviatrix" stuck in my head on auto-repeat.  (Drowsy Chaperone.  But you knew that, right?)

I had to google!

[poppy]

 

 

Actor meant a male actor, it was not the gender neutral term.  That's why the term actress was used.  That's why one earns a "Best Actress" award.  (Came from the French, actrice (v. acteur for a male).)

 

No, actor meant actor. There just didn't happen to be any female actors at the time.

The professional of doctoring is much younger than the profession of acting.

 

[umsami]

No, actor meant actor. There just didn't happen to be any female actors at the time.

The professional of doctoring is much younger than the profession of acting.

So if there were no female actors, then it referred to a male actor. Right? Why did the term actress evolve in the 17th century? Because there were now women acting on stage.

 

Really? What are you basing this on?  I would guess that both are similar in age, in that they both existed in ancient times.  Just because Western medicine didn't come into his own until quite late, doesn't mean other civilizations weren't skilled physicians.

 

The Indians were inoculating against Smallpox in the 10th century, Chinese in the 16th century, Turks and Persians in the early 18th century.  Jenner did it in 1798.

Many were dying of cholera in the West up until we had an effective oral rehydration treatment in the 20th century, yet 3000 years ago, Indian physician Sushruta wrote about the use of rice water, coconut juice, and carrot soup in its treatment (which serve a similar purpose.) .

 

Actress has been used since the 17th century.  It's not like it's a johnny-come-lately term.  

[poppy]

I am certainly not implying that the practice of medicine is new.

If you haven't read about the ‘professionalization' of medicine starting in the 18th century - using the term 'Doctor' to refer to a person who received an MD - you should, it's quite interesting. It's very much tied up with the devaluing midwifery. Make it a degree program, open to well born men, using highly specified jargon and the most modern scientific advances - which led to an increase in maternal deaths. Because doctors were more likely to sacrifice the mother in an attempt to save a distressed baby . And because they saw more patients and didn't know about germs yet, too, no gloves or handwashing.

 

Just remembing this from a few books I read over the years.....

 

So I suppose there is not doctoress because the field of doctoring became open to women much later - but women not practicing medicine is ancient. That is where I am coming from.

[Jenny in Florida]

According to Wikipedia (which we all know is the ultimate in reliable sources, right), "actor" and "actress" were used interchangeable for female actors pretty much from the moment women were allowed onstage. 

 

And the trend toward the gender neutral has been chugging along for about 50 years. 

 

It's not new. 

 

Most of the women I know who perform strongly prefer "actor," because it is inclusive. So, I go with that.