when a kid wants "equal footing"

[musicianmom]

My oldest dd (almost 9) quiet literally feels as though she should have the right to treat adults as peers. She has stated clearly that she wants to be able to talk like a grown-up, and she gets really frustrated at being told repeatedly that she's being rude or disrespectful. She thinks that it's totally unfair that adults can correct children's behavior, but not the other way around. Why can't she ask her dad "Why do you leave your stuff lying around the house?" without receiving a reprimand?***

 

I empathize with her, having been that sort of kid myself. But empathy does not mean I think she should just get away with impertinence. Unfortunately, empathy also does not give me any bright ideas as to how to help her understand her role in life as a child.

 

As far as I know, she is respectful toward adults who don't live in the house with her. At least I haven't heard otherwise, and she's around plenty of people.

 

Any ideas?

 

*** Not the best example, just happened to be the most recent. Definitely tone had something to do with it.

[Catwoman]

Why can't she ask her dad why he leaves his stuff around the house? :confused:

[Dory]

My kids have all been informed that all of life tends to have a slight hierarchy of who is in charge. They might be respected because they are living breathing beings, but they have to give more respect to adults because they have more experience and therefore more time having lived through life and earning that respect. Those that are closer to them and have done more in their lives deserve more respect then say a random stranger on the street. Now that doesn't mean all adults are on equal footing either. Their dad has to give more respect to their boss then the boss has to give to him. He has to show respect to the police, to judges. Respecting people in places of authority is a part of life. It's not just a kids against adults thing, it's a prep for the rest of life.

 

I have had to tell my youngest (by far my lippiest kid), that until he knows how to show respect to those in authority positions, he hasn't proven that he is mature enough to be considered on equal footing with them. There are adults in my life that are the generation older then me that were authority figures to me as I was growing up and are now equals with me. Things change as people grow up, but first people have to know how to give respect.

[MiMi 4under3]

We tell our kids that our family is not a democracy. Things aren't always "equal" or fair. That's life. 

 

IMO, "equal footing" is synonymous with new age-y methods of parenting (which I've tried) and decided are not useful for our family. 

 

However, as long as it's asked respectfully, I have no problem answering questions like "Mom, why do you always leave your bra on the coffee table?"  :laugh: (I take it off late at night while reading on the couch.)

[Ellie]

My oldest dd (almost 9) quiet literally feels as though she should have the right to treat adults as peers. She has stated clearly that she wants to be able to talk like a grown-up, and she gets really frustrated at being told repeatedly that she's being rude or disrespectful. She thinks that it's totally unfair that adults can correct children's behavior, but not the other way around. Why can't she ask her dad "Why do you leave your stuff lying around the house?" without receiving a reprimand?

 

I empathize with her, having been that sort of kid myself. But empathy does not mean I think she should just get away with impertinence. Unfortunately, empathy also does not give me any bright ideas as to how to help her understand her role in life as a child.

 

As far as I know, she is respectful toward adults who don't live in the house with her. At least I haven't heard otherwise, and she's around plenty of people.

 

Any ideas?

 

She may not treat adults as peers. The end. You will probably not be able to make her understand this. You can only repeatedly instruct her.

 

And you might consider pointing out to her father that he may not leave his stuff lying around, either.

[gardenmom5]

this is when they learn that "how" they say something can be far more significant than *what* they say.

 

2dd get's this - and can say almost anything to almost anyone and not give offense.  she has women wanting to introduce her to their sons, and while interviewing for a different job at her current employer, the hiring person told her to apply for a different job she didn't yet qualify for. (but would a few months later.).  their response -   "we'll wait".  she's been there for almost three years.  she even roped an entire group of college students - some of whom she didn't even know -  into painting someone's house.

 

as far as life being unfair.  as a dear friend's mother used to say: life isn't fair, and you don't want it to be.

 

it is my job as a parent to work myself out of a job.  that means' my job is to train them how to be responsible and productive adults.  she may like those perks of adulthood at nine (e.g. choosing her own bedtime), but that's all your dd is seeing - the perks.  there are many responsibilities that are part of being an adult that aren't nearly so fun as the perks of being a kid. 

I do understand.  my youngest is nine - and he's surrounded by adults.

[LostSurprise]

I find it easier for all persons, adult and child, to refer to each other in respectful terms. 

 

When it comes down to who makes the decisions, we have seniority. Our job is to teach them everything they need to know about survival and then let them go out in the world and survive. That means that when they need to know something I tell them. I don't expect instant obedience unless it is necessary (danger, breaking the law). I will explain the reason why I expect certain things of them...what the repercussions are in the real world. 

 

In this kind of situation, I'm very calm and very clear. 'Legally, it's our job to make sure you follow the laws. If you don't, we get in trouble. We wanted to have children. We love you. Our job is to teach you to succeed. If the baby bear doesn't watch the mom fish, he doesn't learn how to fish. He's hungry. If the baby wolf doesn't watch how to interact with other wolves, she gets attacked. Little one, watch, listen, and learn well.' 

 

No, it doesn't always go well, but they do accept it over time. I explain the consequences between life--listening and learning and life--always making things difficult. Counsel her to save the fuss for difficult things she really believes in, and promise to listen and talk about it with a mind as open when she does. 

 

And don't pull the 'I'm the adult just do what I say card' unless you have to. Get to the end of that long discussion (and listening!) first. These kids need to know they have input in their lives.

[chocolatechip]

Adult status comes with responsibility.

 

Tell her that if she wants "adult" status or "equal footing" with you and your DH, she would need to start paying for her insurance, food, share of water, gas, and electric bills, ect. ect. 

 

She doesn't have and is not capable of taking on adult responsibilities yet. Thus, she doesn't get to treat adults as equals: she should respect and honor you, your DH, and other adults for the responsibilities and sacrifices you take on to ensure her welfare and to provide for her.

[KungFuPanda]

I think most kids feel that way, but most don't push it once corrected unless they find a sympathetic accomplice. Your daughter's stance is an immature one. Make sure you're not leading her to believe her opinion is precocious in any way. Mom and Dad own their house. They can keep it how they like. Freeloaders have different rules. When they're adults and pay their rent, they can make the rules and leave the towels on the floor as long as they'd like.

[Catwoman]

I think most kids feel that way, but most don't push it once corrected unless they find a sympathetic accomplice. Your daughter's stance is an immature one. Make sure you're not leading her to believe her opinion is precocious in any way. Mom and Dad own their house. They can keep it how they like. Freeloaders have different rules. When they're adults and pay their rent, they can make the rules and leave the towels on the floor as long as they'd like.

Personally, I don't consider my ds14 to be a "freeloader," and I could very well understand why he might ask my dh and I why we leave stuff lying around the house if he isn't allowed to do the same.

 

There's a lot to be said for setting a good example instead of being a dictator.

 

And FWIW, I will never charge my son rent to live in his own home, and I certainly don't expect him to have to pay his own percentage of the household expenses before I value his opinions and treat him with respect. He is an equal part of the family and weighs in on most of what goes on around here. He doesn't always get his way, but that doesn't mean I don't care what he thinks.

[Χά�ων]

Personally, I don't consider my ds14 to be a "freeloader," and I could very well understand why he might ask my dh and I why we leave stuff lying around the house if he isn't allowed to do the same.

 

There's a lot to be said for setting a good example instead of being a dictator.

 

And FWIW, I will never charge my son rent to live in his own home, and I certainly don't expect him to have to pay his own percentage of the household expenses before I value his opinions and treat him with respect. He is an equal part of the family and weighs in on most of what goes on around here. He doesn't always get his way, but that doesn't mean I don't care what he thinks.

Thank you!!!

[Catwoman]

Thank you!!!

You're very welcome! If I had cupcakes right now, I would share them with you. :)

[Χά�ων]

You're very welcome! If I had cupcakes right now, I would share them with you. :)

I would have to pass. I am trying to be mindful of what I eat so I have been making high protien, low sugar treat that tastes exactly like no bake cookies.

[Dory]

I don't consider my kids freeloaders. They are doing their job which is learning and becoming contributing humans in our society. I'm doing my job, which is teaching them how to be good adults, or helping them figure it out.

 

Once they are done school though, they will have to pay rent if they want to stay here because by then, my job is done and they are supposed to be moving on in life and learning adult responsibility, part of which is paying bills.

[nd293]

We tell our kids that our family is not a democracy. Things aren't always "equal" or fair. That's life.

 

 

That's pretty much how things work around here too.

 

I think tone is critical, as is word choice. Often ds7 will parrot a comment he's heard on TV, and we have to talk about tone and audience.

 

Both of the children have tended towards cheeky with us at times, but are generally regarded as lovely children by other adults. I guess I'd rather have it this way than the other way around, but it is something we work on. Dd13 is seldom disrespectful or cheeky to us anymore, while ds is, as I said, still figuring out what is appropriate in which circumstances.

[gardenmom5]

 

 

And don't pull the 'I'm the adult just do what I say card' unless you have to. Get to the end of that long discussion (and listening!) first. These kids need to know they have input in their lives.

 

:iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: seriously - kids start to ignore you.  I ignored the adults who used it on me.  I might have 'gone along to get along" on occasion with those same adults - but I never respected them.  not even when I became an adult with my own kids.  (possibly had even less respect than when I was the child).  believe me -  I did NOT repeat that stuff with my own, now adult, children.

[gardenmom5]

This.

 

1dd moved home after college.  with a very good income, she had LOTS of discretionary money.  we are not going to subsidize her, so we charged her for living here. (at times when she wasn't working, we didn't charge her rent.)  she still eats, still uses utilities, still contributes to messes etc.  what we charged was still much less than It would have cost to her live on her own.

for Christmas - she bought herself a house.  and has now entered that lovely adult world of "you're never so broke as after you buy your first house".  and all the lovely expenses of utilities, taxes, food, etc.

I don't consider my kids freeloaders. They are doing their job which is learning and becoming contributing humans in our society. I'm doing my job, which is teaching them how to be good adults, or helping them figure it out.

 

Once they are done school though, they will have to pay rent if they want to stay here because by then, my job is done and they are supposed to be moving on in life and learning adult responsibility, part of which is paying bills.

eta:  dh and I used to joke about the one commercial for a mortgage company with the son - after graduating from college, and medical school and his first few years of private practice - asking his parents if they like this house or that house etc. (*we like it*! everything he shows them *we like it*!)

dd makes more than dh. (it pays to be a geek.)

[kiwik]

I think it is unreasonable to expect of someone else what we don't do ourselves. I also think mature people should be able to cope with a certain amount of criticism from subordinates either at home or work. I never got the tone thing right so maybe you could work on that.

 

I'm glad I'm not the only one who takes off her bra and leaves it in the lounge though.

[creekland]

My kids have always been on equal footing, so I simply can't relate.  There's no reason at all that they can't ask any question they like around our house - esp if it appears like there are differing rules about cleanliness.

 

We never had a problem with respect - even in the teenaged years.  They willingly help out with chores and always have (we're on a farm, so chores happen - far more than in "just" a house).

 

We see our family as a team.  When certain members of a team have more info/experience with something, they share with other members, so our kids have learned a ton about cleaning, gardening, training ponies, fixing fence, etc, but also as our kids branched out into things they like we parents learned a bit from them - esp youngest as he's a wealth of knowledge about flora/fauna that is mainly self-taught from books and research he does.

 

We don't charge rent.  I can't imagine doing so unless we opted to all get a place together (in their adulthood) for some reason and split the costs, and that's not really "rent" we're charging.

 

Every single adult that my kids have had contact with (teachers, neighbors, church members, places where they volunteer, college profs, etc) have commented on how they love them or have shown it in other ways (references, jobs, etc), so I've NO regrets with our parenting style even if some consider it weird.

[Pawz4me]

I think kids should absolutely be allowed to question their parents and other adults.  In a respectful tone, of course.  If you squelch that questioning, IMO what you're doing is not teaching respect, but teaching the kid that her opinions and questions don't matter.  That she doesn't matter.  That she should suppress her questions and feelings when dealing with others.  That she should blindly follow what anyone in a supervisory/authority position says, and assume they know best.  That's definitely not what I want to accomplish or model as a parent.  I encourage respectful questioning.  It opens the door for all sorts of beneficial conversations.  I'm sure there are kids where this approach might be problematic.  For mine it hasn't been.

[Amy in NH]

Personally, I don't consider my ds14 to be a "freeloader," and I could very well understand why he might ask my dh and I why we leave stuff lying around the house if he isn't allowed to do the same.

 

There's a lot to be said for setting a good example instead of being a dictator.

 

And FWIW, I will never charge my son rent to live in his own home, and I certainly don't expect him to have to pay his own percentage of the household expenses before I value his opinions and treat him with respect. He is an equal part of the family and weighs in on most of what goes on around here. He doesn't always get his way, but that doesn't mean I don't care what he thinks.

 

:iagree: Children learn best through behavior that is modeled. 

 

 

If you leave stuff around, she learns it's okay to do that. 

 

If you correct her with that tone of voice, she learns it's okay to correct other people with that tone of voice.

 

If you tell her something different than what she has learned through your actions, she will feel (rightly) indignant and unbelieving of your words, and might question the mixed message.

 

Perhaps she's a bit precocious and brushing up against the logic stage...

[Twinmom]

I always tell my kids that adult status is conferred upon those who have earned it, both through behaviors and choices as well as actual years on the planet (not to mention, paying their own bills! ;) ). Each one of them is on their way there, but ain't there yet! So, ask all the questions you want but they better be asked respectfully.

 

In an ideal world, this would always work. However, I have an FASD child, so... ;)

[Haiku]

Why can't she ask her dad why he leaves his stuff around the house? :confused:

 

The thing that comes to mind most immediately is that tone matters a lot. My oldest dd (who turns 20 this summer) didn't learn that until she went to college. (And, when she and her best friend were visiting one weekend, her best friend mentioned to me privately [and with no inquiry on my part] that she sometimes still had to "call out" my dd on the way she talked to people.) It created a lot of friction in our home, as no one wants to be spoken to in a snide, snotty, sarcastic, or exasperated tone of voice. My mantra with her was, "It's not what you said, it's how you said it." 

 

I also feel that if I own the house, pay the bills, and do the bulk of the work to keep the house running, I get (to some degree) to do things the way I want to without the other residents of the house constantly putting in their two cents. 

 

Additionally, kids are not small adults. They were made to be looked after by adults, and they are lacking in maturity, forethought, and the long view. They often don't understand things even after adults have explained them because of the current development. Each of my kids has gone through stages where they picked an issue to harp on, behaving as though they were the expert and I should bend to their way of doing things. My response each time was, "When this is your responsibility, you may pick the way of handling it. Right now it is MY responsibility, and I will do it in the way I see fit."

 

I don't think my kids never have a right to question me. But the OP stated that this is an ongoing problem and that her dd is rude about it. I believe that parents should be able to manage their homes and families and parenting responsibilities relatively free from the criticism of the peanut gallery. Just the other day I told dd 12, who is smack in the middle of the "everything is a crisis of majestic proportions" stage of early puberty, that people who gripe about everything end up getting ignored because they wear everyone else out.

[Guest submarines]

My oldest dd (almost 9) quiet literally feels as though she should have the right to treat adults as peers. She has stated clearly that she wants to be able to talk like a grown-up, and she gets really frustrated at being told repeatedly that she's being rude or disrespectful. She thinks that it's totally unfair that adults can correct children's behavior, but not the other way around. Why can't she ask her dad "Why do you leave your stuff lying around the house?" without receiving a reprimand?***

 

I empathize with her, having been that sort of kid myself. But empathy does not mean I think she should just get away with impertinence. Unfortunately, empathy also does not give me any bright ideas as to how to help her understand her role in life as a child.

 

As far as I know, she is respectful toward adults who don't live in the house with her. At least I haven't heard otherwise, and she's around plenty of people.

 

Any ideas?

 

*** Not the best example, just happened to be the most recent. Definitely tone had something to do with it.

 

So where did the tone come from? Who is she modelling?

 

I have a neat kid, and I'm a "creatively messy" person :001_rolleyes: .

 

Yep, I was asked by my kid about why my kitchen was messy, in a tone that made me feel she was being disrespectful. But I knew exactly where that tone came from (hello?! Her lovely mother is no saint!) and it hit me hard that I was modelling disrespect by my own irritable tone. So we talked about it, and we both try to do better.

 

It is amazing how kids model our tone, both good and bad. I've had many moments when my heart melted hearing the children repeat my tone and message to others or to each other, and I've had moments when my insides shivered when I recognized my own ugly tone.

 

[Haiku]

So where did the tone come from? Who is she modelling?

 

Kids are perfectly capable of being obnoxious on their own. They don't always need a model. ;)

[elegantlion]

Have you done any logic training with her? A course of personal communication? About that age, ds started to notice the unfairness of the world. Comments like dad picking up his stuff would have come out of his mouth, except exdh was neater than me. 

 

Part of being an adult is learning how to see the unfairness and not stomp off in a pity fit.I try not to respond to tone, but answer the question. "Your father doesn't get in trouble because he works hard to provide for us and is tired when he gets home." (that would apply to our situation). Part of the joy of having a child like that is that the point out things you might not approve or or see anymore because they've become habit. I can see me going to my husband and asking why he doesn't pick up more, or dishes, or the toothpaste.

 

Ds was born to question everything, negotiate everything, and debate everything. We started with conflict training about that age. The teacher store had some books on that - age appropriate, can't remember the title. We also did some etiquette, which taught him appropriate times to speak up. As he's gotten older we've done informal and formal logic. He's studied with me because you want to know it too, especially with a child who will use it on your if you're not careful.  

 

 

[Plink]

Agreeing with the others. It is all about teaching proper tone and phrasing.

 

Requests must be questions, not commands.

Requests must asked in an inquiring rather than accusatory tone.

Requests must be spoken at an acceptable volume.

Requests must be asked at an appropriate time.

 

There is alot to learn. Kids get it wrong for a while before figuring it all out. Wishing you patience.

 

ETA: I often tell my kids "phrase that as a question please," or "please correct your tone" and give them a chance for a do-over because I find that correcting them in the moment seems to be most effective, but at the same I never hesitate to say "now isn't an appropriate time to discuss this" if I need to.

[Word Nerd]

Kids are perfectly capable of being obnoxious on their own. They don't always need a model. ;)

 

:iagree: 

 

[OneStepAtATime]

OP, I get what you are saying, but I guess I just see things very differently.  I am sorry you are having a tough time with this and I hope you find a good path through.  I just don't have the same viewpoint, I don't think.  I am the parent.  There are certain things I and my husband can do that the kids cannot.  However, those mainly relate to safety and age appropriateness.  I honestly just cannot relate to having huge double standards in our home, even though DH does not always feel this way (which has caused friction at times).  If we have a rule that shoes should be put away, I honestly feel that should apply to EVERYONE in the household.  If we have a rule that you clean up after you eat, scrape your plate, put it in the dishwasher, etc.  that rule should apply to EVERYONE in the household.  DH and I do not create rules just to create rules.  Those rules are there for safety and to help with the running of the household.  If I create a rule I definitely follow it, too. 

 

So I totally get when the kids question why DH may make a huge deal about not leaving a half-full glass out on the table but then he turns around and does the same thing, and for longer periods, and frequently with ice cream that melts, too.  I totally get when they wonder why DH chewed them out for not picking up the socks they dumped on the floor the minute they walked in the door but himself leaves his socks all over the house and NEVER picks them up.  I don't want my kids to be rude, I do not want them to be impertinent and I don't think they are my peers or DH's peers, but I do think if I truly want them to value the rules in our house and see that they are not arbitrarily created but have real purpose, then those rules should be followed by all the members of the household.  The kids have brains.  They are making connections and understanding what is happening around them.  They are not automatons.  Life isn't fair, but in your own family there SHOULD be some fairness and logic in the mix, IMHO.  When it isn't I think they have the right to ask why.  It is part of the learning process.  In this case, they are learning that sometimes parents do not agree on how rules apply in their own homes and you have to compromise and find a way to work that out.

 

Edited to add that tone is definitely something I would be cognizant of and try to model and discuss with them.  Tone, body language, etc. are very important and showing respect for others, including and especially parents is very important, IMO.  But I would separate concern over tone from concern over questioning why certain things are done a certain way in our household.  

[Katy]

Ahhh, maybe it's that my parents were both in the military, but I suspect it's more a matter of being raised in North Florida with a very Southern dad.   I remember being talked to about giving people respect solely due to their age when I was pretty little.  I've taught the same.

 

I can't say, however, that when one of our tweens went on a rant last week about Dad's messiness I didn't respond in a very condescending manner that the minute *they* finished college, bought a house, worked 70 or more hours a week with two hours of commuting per day, and married or hired someone who agreed to pick up after *them* that they would then be allowed to be as big a slob as they wanted.  But in the meantime they would pick up after themselves and treat their dad with the respect he deserves. 

 

*sigh*.  I have such good intentions for being calm all the time.

 

I wonder if the weird voice changing thing kids that age go through makes them sound whinier and more condescending than they intend.

 

I also think being exposed to a couple tv shows & movies with precocious snark encourages bratty behavior like that, at least in my kids.

[KungFuPanda]

Personally, I don't consider my ds14 to be a "freeloader," and I could very well understand why he might ask my dh and I why we leave stuff lying around the house if he isn't allowed to do the same.

There's a lot to be said for setting a good example instead of being a dictator.

And FWIW, I will never charge my son rent to live in his own home, and I certainly don't expect him to have to pay his own percentage of the household expenses before I value his opinions and treat him with respect. He is an equal part of the family and weighs in on most of what goes on around here. He doesn't always get his way, but that doesn't mean I don't care what he thinks.

You're free to use whichever word for 'dependent' that you feel comfortable using. Clearly you don't have a problem with this at your house. The OP has an 8-year-old with boundary and respect issues that she'd like some help addressing. If the child was asking an appropriate number of questions in a respectful tone, there would be no thread. It doesn't sound like this child is seeking only to be heard and respected, but pushing to have equal say in adult matters, interjecting herself into adult conversations, and feeling she should be allowed to correct adult behavior. In the grand scheme of things, it's not a huge problem, but I think it's one worth trying to solve and I applaud the OP for wanting to work on it.

[Paige]

What does talking like a grown up mean? IMO, if my child spoke like a typical grown up speaking to another typical grown up I would be pleased. It would be much better than the sassy pre-teen attitude I get that most kids outgrow eventually. 

 

I think the real question is whether you or DH feel that the questions themselves would be impertinent in any tone coming from a child, or if it's the way the questions are asked that is the problem. You can fix the tone by modeling to her how to ask respectfully. With my DS, I'll sometimes tell him how I think he could have rephrased the question or the type of tone that wouldn't have given offense. Maybe one day he'll try what I've modeled first.

 

If the questions bother you, then you need to figure out if it would be rude coming from anyone or not. Maybe she's not saying things a normal guest in your home would. Would you have been bothered if the same question came from your mother or another adult friend? My guess is that it would have bothered you because inconsistencies in households and little messes are things that most people try to politely avoid talking about because it touches nerves. My kids ask things that they haven't yet learned is rude. DS will ask about money and costs of things in front of people. In my family, that is rude. I've told him many times that it is inappropriate, but the social nuances of how and when we talk about money are difficult for him. 

 

One area that I insist that I can speak differently than I allow my DC is in regards to manners. It super annoys me when my DC try to correct my manners. As above, they don't get the social nuances and how manners may be situationally different. I was discussing with my father the cost of something he wanted to buy. DS tried to correct me publicly by saying our conversation about costs was rude. He thinks since I correct his manners that he can correct mine. I've told him that my job and sacred duty is to teach him manners, but in normal situations it is ruder to correct someone than it is to show poor manners. His job is not to teach me, and by correcting me (or anyone) publicly, he is displaying poor manners. Furthermore, he hasn't enough experience to know what to correct or what is ok.  I try to correct him discretely, but things happen...

 

When my DC ask why Dh (or I) leaves stuff about when they aren't allowed to, or any other inconsistency in our house rules, I tell them that DH is an adult and makes his own decisions. My job is to teach them good habits that will help them to succeed. I can't tell DH what to do, nor does he tell me what to do, and worrying about what other adults do leads to a miserable life. 

[KrissiK]

I'm not sure asking why dad gets to leave his stuff laying around is necessarily a bad thing, but I do have one who can't figure out why he can't be treated "like an adult", either. and he is told in no uncertain terms that he will be treated as an adult when he is willing to shoulder all the responsibilities of being an adult. He just turned 11 and thinks we "owe" him a later bedtime and all of these privileges, yet he is resentful when asked to do more around the house, he "forgets" his chores unless nagged, and he really thinks that he should be able to do everything he wants to do just because he "is".

[Haiku]

When my DC ask why Dh (or I) leaves stuff about when they aren't allowed to, or any other inconsistency in our house rules, I tell them that DH is an adult and makes his own decisions. 

 

Yup. I'm not raising my dh. When he leaves his socks on the floor, I can ask him to pick them up, and I can mention that it frustrates me that they are always there, but I can't discipline him for doing so. I am, however, raising my kids, which involves teaching, modeling, and discipline, not treating them like mini adults.

[kewb]

There is no reason why she can't ask a question of an adult.  It sounds more like she needs a lesson in tone vs what she is saying.  

[happi duck]

Personally, I don't consider my ds14 to be a "freeloader," and I could very well understand why he might ask my dh and I why we leave stuff lying around the house if he isn't allowed to do the same.

 

There's a lot to be said for setting a good example instead of being a dictator.

 

And FWIW, I will never charge my son rent to live in his own home, and I certainly don't expect him to have to pay his own percentage of the household expenses before I value his opinions and treat him with respect. He is an equal part of the family and weighs in on most of what goes on around here. He doesn't always get his way, but that doesn't mean I don't care what he thinks.

Well said!!

[laundrycrisis]

Learning to be subordinate, and learning to discuss things with someone "above" you in a manner that doesn't get you into trouble, is good training for being employed.  

[Haiku]

Personally, I don't consider my ds14 to be a "freeloader," and I could very well understand why he might ask my dh and I why we leave stuff lying around the house if he isn't allowed to do the same.

 

I can understand why my kids would ask something like that, too, but that doesn't mean it's appropriate (especially if tone is an issue or it's one of those recurring "asked and answered" questions). When kids have the same level of responsibility for the home and family as the adults do, they can have the same privileges. Until then, they can't.

[Word Nerd]

There's a lot to be said for setting a good example instead of being a dictator.

 

 

Is the OP arguing she should be able to be a dictator? 

[gardenmom5]

Ahhh, maybe it's that my parents were both in the military, but I suspect it's more a matter of being raised in North Florida with a very Southern dad.   I remember being talked to about giving people respect solely due to their age when I was pretty little.  I've taught the same.

 

 

I also think being exposed to a couple tv shows & movies with precocious snark encourages bratty behavior like that, at least in my kids.

 

dh's an army brat.  I'd suspect it's the southern way in which you were raised.

 

I've taken programming away that I noticed had undesirable influence.  and that includes things as "innocent" as peter pan, and curious George.  (and recently the SW cartoons)

sadly, Netflix is very limited on how many episodes of mythbusters they have.

 

[gardenmom5]

There is no reason why she can't ask a question of an adult.  It sounds more like she needs a lesson in tone vs what she is saying.  

 

I remember one time my niece was over - my girls thought they'd get her to ask the question, because they were sure I'd say no.  they told her what to say (but not how to say it. unfortunately.).  let's say, things did not go over well.  my sister tended to go around with the rock of Gibraltar on her shoulder - and so did her dd.  what was really sad was, I realized 2dd could have said the exact same thing - and it would have gotten a laugh because she can do delivery.

[gardenmom5]

Yup. I'm not raising my dh. When he leaves his socks on the floor, I can ask him to pick them up, and I can mention that it frustrates me that they are always there, but I can't discipline him for doing so. I am, however, raising my kids, which involves teaching, modeling, and discipline, not treating them like mini adults.

 

maybe, and maybe not.  natural consequences are - if it ain't in the laundry, it doesn't get washed and then he has no clean socks.

[TechWife]

maybe, and maybe not.  natural consequences are - if it ain't in the laundry, it doesn't get washed and then he has no clean socks.

 

I'm sorry, but if I knew my husband was out of socks, I'd wash them no matter where they are. He works hard, has to leave the house fully dressed daily, works on a schedule and often travels with a 24 hour notice (or less). So socks (laundry in general) impacts his life in a pretty significant way. 

[OneStepAtATime]

And I do get the "why do you leave stuff around" argument.  If I reprimand my kids for something and I'm doing the very same thing myself, they have a point.  I once got on my son because his desk was a disaster.  He pointed out that mine was too.  And he was right.  So I cleaned my desk.  Then he cleaned his.

 

I know it's my prerogative to keep my desk how I want to, but I did feel like his argument was valid. 

Yep.  I agree with this.  My mom and I used to be really saddened that a friend we knew who smoked 2 packs of cigarettes a day and ate absolutely abysmally would get really angry when her DD, in her teens, started smoking and eating really poorly.  "Do as I say, not as I do" can really backfire once kids are older.  If a rule is valid for the child, unless it is a safety or developmental issue, it should be valid for the other members of the family, too, IMHO.  Otherwise, why is the rule there?  And how can a parent expect their child to actually SEE any value in that rule as they get older? 

[gardenmom5]

I'm sorry, but if I knew my husband was out of socks, I'd wash them no matter where they are. He works hard, has to leave the house fully dressed daily, works on a schedule and often travels with a 24 hour notice (or less). So socks (laundry in general) impacts his life in a pretty significant way. 

 

,

most people get up and have to go to work in the morning, so that is a lame excuse to not simply put laundry where it goes. it doesn't take very long - and in fact takes longer and makes more work for others to drop it on the floor first.  dh used to get up every morning - before he started working for himself.  he also traveled on a regular basis in previous jobs.

 

I'm his wife - not his servant.  I would consider it very disrespectful to me (and incredibly juvenile of him), if he dumped stuff on the floor because he's "too tired" (re: lazy) to put it where it goes, and expecting me to come along behind him and pick it up.  He's a grown up - and very capable of putting his own socks in the laundry, and his shoes in the closet.  

[OneStepAtATime]

I'm sorry, but if I knew my husband was out of socks, I'd wash them no matter where they are. He works hard, has to leave the house fully dressed daily, works on a schedule and often travels with a 24 hour notice (or less). So socks (laundry in general) impacts his life in a pretty significant way. 

I'd wash them, too.  And I do.  Having no socks would definitely impact his life more negatively than mine.  And I do want to support DH and I want the kids to see that we all help each other out in a pinch, we support each other, we sacrifice for each other.

 

But at the same time, I work hard, too.  I am not retired.  I am not sitting in my lounge chair eating bonbons all day while he slaves away.  I am helping my mom run a business and I am homeschooling two bright kids with special learning issues and handling ALL of our personal finances and the daily maintenance of the household and taking care of 8 animals.  I am not his servant, I am his partner.  I work just as hard.  I just don't leave the house nearly as often.  And the kids are working hard, too.  Education has been a challenge for them.  They have to really struggle at times to get over learning humps.  And they help daily with the maintenance of our home and our animals.  And while the kids have more downtime than DH and I, they SHOULD have time to play and be kids.  And I usually have less downtime than DH does.  So if he feels that everyone should put up their socks right away, then I think he should follow his own rules.

 

But I have not made socks a hill to die on.  :)

[Mango]

"Dad works the job that pays the bills which buys the house. His house, his rules. And as long as you can speak to him respectfully, you can say anything you want." 

 

"Someday it will be your house, your rules. And we'll respectfully say what we feel needs to be said to you." 

 

Bottom line respect. 

 

[redsquirrel]

I don't consider myself a freeloader in my own life, so I don't ask someone to do something that I will not do myself. For example, if I ask you to clean the toilet that you helped dirty, you know that I have also cleaned the toilet in my turn. I don't consider any chore beneath me or anyone else in the house. I also don't tell anyone else to pick up their socks if my own are on the floor.

 

I think your daughter's question is a good one and it should be answered seriously and respectfully, in the manner in which you would like to be spoken to.  Children are, of course, not adults, but not because they don't provide monetary value for their existence. Is that really how some if you measure the the worth of a person now? Your loved ones have to pay to play? Do you set the old and infirm out into the night? In a family we take care of each other. Sometimes we leave our socks out. And sometimes we get told to pick them up. But sometimes the people in our lives pick up our socks for us because they know that we have been doing other things for the family or for ourselves that is important or necessary or just plain fun. We pick the other person's socks up out of love for them. And you might want to let her know that daddy has picked up her socks on occasion. Just because she doesn't see it, doesn't mean it didn't happen.

 

Being a kid is hard. Being a kid who is aware of her powerlessness is a little bit harder. You might want to offer her some more opportunities for responsibility and give her some more freedoms in exchange. Maybe she is ready? 

[JumpyTheFrog]

As far as "having to pay to play," with that attitude, what is to keep breadwinning spouses from telling the other spouse that since they pay the bills, they get to set the rules? Do we really want our kids to think that the only way to have any personal power is to earn money and that if they ever become disabled, whoever pays their way can set all the rules? How far do we take this idea that "he who has the gold makes the rules"?

[JumpyTheFrog]

Personally, I would rather teach my kids that we defer to those with more wisdom in a particular area, not automatically whoever has more money. Think of how many threads we've had over the years about employers treating their employees like dirt. Do we want to encourage corporations to think that since they have the money, their employees should do everything they are told, short of breaking the law? "Hey, I pay your salary, so if I say you have to wear a leather catsuit to work, then your only question should be 'What color?' "