Rod and Staff English Program

[lucylu0508]

Hi everyone :laugh:  I've been kind of lurking around here for a bit..I love reading and benefiting from all of the advice and experience that is posted here. So thank you :)

 

I have a question and would appreciate any input. 

 

My son is going to be a third grader in the fall and I've been trying to nail down the resources that I want to use for his language arts. We just started homeschooling after Thanksgiving break last year so I walked away feeling that the year was a bit...disjointed. I was just trying to get my footing on how to do everything and think that what I initially chose to use wasn't really effective (Growing with Grammar, Winning with Writing, Plaid Phonics, Spelling Workout-I don't think there was a whole lot of retention with them). So I'm back to the drawing board and starting from scratch. After ENDLESS researching (and reading threads here-thank you) I *think* that I have decided on Rod and Staff's English Program. 

 

This is what I was thinking as for-sure:

 

Rod and Staff English

Rod and Staff Spelling with Sound and Structure. 

Pentime for handwriting. 

 

Now, I was planning on adding in WWE (though admittedly I do not know much about this program besides the basics) and possibly Just Write. My son goes completely blank with writing and he gets that from me so I'm kind of lost on this area. Then I read some random review that stated the Rod and Staff program includes composition-can anyone verify this? Is the composition that is a part of the R&S enough for a third grader who is a reluctant writer? Should I still have some sort of phonics practice this year? I was also going to add in Wordly Wise for vocabulary-is that necessary? 

 

I also have a daughter who will be in the first grade and was planning on doing CLE's Language Arts and CLE's Learning to Read program along with Just Write and maybe WWE? Does this sound okay? I originally planned on doing CLE LA with my son as well (he will be doing their math as he needs the constant review CLE includes) but I wasn't sure about the dictionary markings they include and heard that the spelling lists seem kind of random. 

 

I plan on doing a lot of read alouds of classic children's lit but haven't gotten to the point of planning those yet. 

 

So, I'm obviously very new to this and unsure of what I'm doing to be honest. Any advice or thoughts will be much appreciated :)

 

[coffeegal]

Hi everyone :laugh:  I've been kind of lurking around here for a bit..I love reading and benefiting from all of the advice and experience that is posted here. So thank you :)

 

I have a question and would appreciate any input. 

 

My son is going to be a third grader in the fall and I've been trying to nail down the resources that I want to use for his language arts. We just started homeschooling after Thanksgiving break last year so I walked away feeling that the year was a bit...disjointed. I was just trying to get my footing on how to do everything and think that what I initially chose to use wasn't really effective (Growing with Grammar, Winning with Writing, Plaid Phonics, Spelling Workout-I don't think there was a whole lot of retention with them). So I'm back to the drawing board and starting from scratch. After ENDLESS researching (and reading threads here-thank you) I *think* that I have decided on Rod and Staff's English Program. 

 

This is what I was thinking as for-sure:

 

Rod and Staff English

Rod and Staff Spelling with Sound and Structure. 

Pentime for handwriting. 

 

Now, I was planning on adding in WWE (though admittedly I do not know much about this program besides the basics) and possibly Just Write. My son goes completely blank with writing and he gets that from me so I'm kind of lost on this area. Then I read some random review that stated the Rod and Staff program includes composition-can anyone verify this? Is the composition that is a part of the R&S enough for a third grader who is a reluctant writer? Should I still have some sort of phonics practice this year? I was also going to add in Wordly Wise for vocabulary-is that necessary? 

 

I also have a daughter who will be in the first grade and was planning on doing CLE's Language Arts and CLE's Learning to Read program along with Just Write and maybe WWE? Does this sound okay? I originally planned on doing CLE LA with my son as well (he will be doing their math as he needs the constant review CLE includes) but I wasn't sure about the dictionary markings they include and heard that the spelling lists seem kind of random. 

 

I plan on doing a lot of read alouds of classic children's lit but haven't gotten to the point of planning those yet. 

 

So, I'm obviously very new to this and unsure of what I'm doing to be honest. Any advice or thoughts will be much appreciated :)

 

I love Pentime Penmanship for handwriting. Yes, Rod and Staff English is enough for writing. There isn't much instruction in composition until the end of R&S 3. There is build up though. The children write a sentence here, a couple sentences there, and work up to writing a paragraph. My suggestion is to add narrations and copy work in history and science. Simply have your son narrate a sentence or two about what he learned, you write it down, and he copies it.

 

I don't know much about CLE. My preference is to use Queen's Language Lessons for Little Ones for Prk - 1st grade and then we switch over to Rod and Staff English in the second grade.

 

[Ellie]

Hi everyone :laugh:  I've been kind of lurking around here for a bit..I love reading and benefiting from all of the advice and experience that is posted here. So thank you :)

 

I have a question and would appreciate any input. 

 

My son is going to be a third grader in the fall and I've been trying to nail down the resources that I want to use for his language arts. We just started homeschooling after Thanksgiving break last year so I walked away feeling that the year was a bit...disjointed. I was just trying to get my footing on how to do everything and think that what I initially chose to use wasn't really effective (Growing with Grammar, Winning with Writing, Plaid Phonics, Spelling Workout-I don't think there was a whole lot of retention with them). So I'm back to the drawing board and starting from scratch. After ENDLESS researching (and reading threads here-thank you) I *think* that I have decided on Rod and Staff's English Program. 

 

This is what I was thinking as for-sure:

 

Rod and Staff English

Rod and Staff Spelling with Sound and Structure. 

Pentime for handwriting. 

 

Now, I was planning on adding in WWE (though admittedly I do not know much about this program besides the basics) and possibly Just Write. My son goes completely blank with writing and he gets that from me so I'm kind of lost on this area. Then I read some random review that stated the Rod and Staff program includes composition-can anyone verify this? Is the composition that is a part of the R&S enough for a third grader who is a reluctant writer? Should I still have some sort of phonics practice this year? I was also going to add in Wordly Wise for vocabulary-is that necessary? 

 

I also have a daughter who will be in the first grade and was planning on doing CLE's Language Arts and CLE's Learning to Read program along with Just Write and maybe WWE? Does this sound okay? I originally planned on doing CLE LA with my son as well (he will be doing their math as he needs the constant review CLE includes) but I wasn't sure about the dictionary markings they include and heard that the spelling lists seem kind of random. 

 

I plan on doing a lot of read alouds of classic children's lit but haven't gotten to the point of planning those yet. 

 

So, I'm obviously very new to this and unsure of what I'm doing to be honest. Any advice or thoughts will be much appreciated :)

 

Rod and Staff's Building Christian English is an excellent series that needs no supplementing at any time, ever.

 

I like Spelling by Sound and Structure beginning at fourth grade.

 

You can call the publisher at (606) 522-4348 and request free curriculum samples as well as a free scope and sequence, so you can see what is taught at each grade.

[lucylu0508]

I love Pentime Penmanship for handwriting. Yes, Rod and Staff English is enough for writing. There isn't much instruction in composition until the end of R&S 3. There is build up though. The children write a sentence here, a couple sentences there, and work up to writing a paragraph. My suggestion is to add narrations and copy work in history and science. Simply have your son narrate a sentence or two about what he learned, you write it down, and he copies it.

 

I don't know much about CLE. My preference is to use Queen's Language Lessons for Little Ones for Prk - 1st grade and then we switch over to Rod and Staff English in the second grade.

 

Thank you for replying! That's a great suggestion on how to add narrations and copywork-we will be adding that in. 

 

And I'm going to check out Queen's Language, thank you for the suggestion :)

 

Rod and Staff's Building Christian English is an excellent series that needs no supplementing at any time, ever.

 

I like Spelling by Sound and Structure beginning at fourth grade.

 

You can call the publisher at (606) 522-4348 and request free curriculum samples as well as a free scope and sequence, so you can see what is taught at each grade.

Thank you so much for the reply! I will be giving the company a call tomorrow morning to request those samples and the scope and sequence

 

It's looking like I can skip the WWE and Just Write with my DS. It's a relief to know that the R&S program doesn't need a supplement as I sometimes get overwhelmed with 5 different books for language arts...and it seems to take forever to work through them all. 

 

Thank you again, ladies :)

[alisoncooks]

This is what I was thinking as for-sure:

 

Rod and Staff English

Rod and Staff Spelling with Sound and Structure. 

Pentime for handwriting. 

My rising 3rd grader loves R&S Spelling and Pentime.  We just started a month ago with Grade 2 and we're playing catch-up with them... but she has enjoyed them.  *MY* 3rd grader will be continuing phonics because she is behind in reading (struggles)... but if she were on grade level, I would probably drop phonics at grade 3.

 

R&S English does contain writing lessons but I think there's debate whether or not R&S English contains enough writing.  I personally prefer Just Write to WWE (but I'm sure I'm in the minority there).

 

 

 

I also have a daughter who will be in the first grade and was planning on doing CLE's Language Arts and CLE's Learning to Read program along with Just Write and maybe WWE? Does this sound okay? I originally planned on doing CLE LA with my son as well (he will be doing their math as he needs the constant review CLE includes) but I wasn't sure about the dictionary markings they include and heard that the spelling lists seem kind of random. 

 

I also have a rising first grader.   :)

CLE has caught my attention this week (I started a thread about it earlier today).  I'm considering using their reading programs for both my girls... and possibly LA 1 with the youngest.  Still not sure.  I don't care for the diacritical markings (was hoping I could skip those :p)... and I don't want to give up our current spelling program.

*sigh* Decisions, decisions... :)

 

We have used Just Write About Me/About my World and quite liked them for a gentle introduction to writing.  Youngest will use them both next year.  I think that CLE tends to have quite a bit of writing, so if you do that + Just Write + WWE all in the same day, your younger might overload (unless she loves to write!)   I'd probably choose 1 writing program -- either you think SWB's writing philosophy is the way to go... or you don't.  If you don't, then skip WWE.  If you *do* (and want to stick with her plan long-term) then skip Just Write. :p

[happyWImom]

R&S is finally my/our perfect grammar program.  It's easy to teach, has the review, is a solid, solid grammar program.  The key is not to have them write everytime it says to.  We do much of it orally.  I do have them write the review stuff and diagramming and whatever I feel is important.  But, they are getting so much out of doing it orally.  I have them read it all out loud to me as I follow along in the TM.  

 

I know I'll probably get booed out of here, but my ds wasn't thrilled with writing, so we just did the R&S and I added a Spectrum Writing wkbk to his week.  It's cheap, easy, and something he can do independently.  He actually likes it, and I feel like it's something.  Until we add a more substantial writing program next year.

[Ellie]

R&S English does contain writing lessons but I think there's debate whether or not R&S English contains enough writing.  I personally prefer Just Write to WWE (but I'm sure I'm in the minority there).

 

 

 

IDK....SWB says it's enough.

 

If you look at each English text as a whole, and at the series overall, I think you'll find that there really is plenty of writing. *Everything* counts as writing, even when it's the grammar exercises, or dictionary work, or what have you.

[lucylu0508]

My rising 3rd grader loves R&S Spelling and Pentime.  We just started a month ago with Grade 2 and we're playing catch-up with them... but she has enjoyed them.  *MY* 3rd grader will be continuing phonics because she is behind in reading (struggles)... but if she were on grade level, I would probably drop phonics at grade 3.

 

R&S English does contain writing lessons but I think there's debate whether or not R&S English contains enough writing.  I personally prefer Just Write to WWE (but I'm sure I'm in the minority there).

 

 

I also have a rising first grader.   :)

CLE has caught my attention this week (I started a thread about it earlier today).  I'm considering using their reading programs for both my girls... and possibly LA 1 with the youngest.  Still not sure.  I don't care for the diacritical markings (was hoping I could skip those :p)... and I don't want to give up our current spelling program.

*sigh* Decisions, decisions... :)

 

We have used Just Write About Me/About my World and quite liked them for a gentle introduction to writing.  Youngest will use them both next year.  I think that CLE tends to have quite a bit of writing, so if you do that + Just Write + WWE all in the same day, your younger might overload (unless she loves to write!)   I'd probably choose 1 writing program -- either you think SWB's writing philosophy is the way to go... or you don't.  If you don't, then skip WWE.  If you *do* (and want to stick with her plan long-term) then skip Just Write. :p

 

Wow, we seem to have very similar situations :) My third grader is a struggling reader as well which is why I was thinking he needs more phonics practice. Do you know what you are using with your daughter yet in that area? And I'm wondering if I should start my DS with level 2 in spelling. From the samples I've seen so far, Just Write appeals to me more than WWE but apparently I need to look into it a bit more to see which philosophy suits us. 

 

As far as CLE-the diacritical markings (I couldn't remember the term before) are a con for me. It's the main reason I decided against it for my third grader, I just don't think it would mesh well with him. But if I started it from the beginning with my daughter, than it may not be an issue with her. I'm going to go look for the thread you started about CLE as I'm very interested :)

 

Thank you for your input! I'm off to look in depth at WWE vs. Just Write

 

 

R&S is finally my/our perfect grammar program.  It's easy to teach, has the review, is a solid, solid grammar program.  The key is not to have them write everytime it says to.  We do much of it orally.  I do have them write the review stuff and diagramming and whatever I feel is important.  But, they are getting so much out of doing it orally.  I have them read it all out loud to me as I follow along in the TM.  

 

I know I'll probably get booed out of here, but my ds wasn't thrilled with writing, so we just did the R&S and I added a Spectrum Writing wkbk to his week.  It's cheap, easy, and something he can do independently.  He actually likes it, and I feel like it's something.  Until we add a more substantial writing program next year.

 

Thank you for the tip on doing some of the lessons orally, I'm sure my son will like that. I need to stop thinking that every single thing needs to be written down in order to be considered "done" (I hope that makes sense). 

[alisoncooks]

Wow, we seem to have very similar situations :) My third grader is a struggling reader as well which is why I was thinking he needs more phonics practice. Do you know what you are using with your daughter yet in that area? And I'm wondering if I should start my DS with level 2 in spelling. From the samples I've seen so far, Just Write appeals to me more than WWE but apparently I need to look into it a bit more to see which philosophy suits us. 

:D

 

We've been using Dancing Bears all this year and will continue on with it, since I'm seeing improvement.

 

R&S Spelling 2 has been just about perfect for my DD (she's just now reading books like Frog & Toad, with help).  Some of the spelling words have been "easier" but she's getting a lot of good practice reading the instructions for herself.  I think it's been beneficial, overall. 

[twoxcell]

 

Rod and Staff English

Rod and Staff Spelling with Sound and Structure. 

Pentime for handwriting.

We use all three of these and love them. :)

[Aloha2U]

I've found that R&S can have a lot of physical writing, if you choose to have the child do the physical writing exercises for each grammar lesson independently, instead of orally or even just the optional worksheets. Essentially, it aids in practicing handwriting, as well as the very basic structures of writing within the "writing" portion. However, it lacks in working through the art of writing, which I is why I'd include WWE. 

[Ellie]

I've found that R&S can have a lot of physical writing, if you choose to have the child do the physical writing exercises for each grammar lesson independently, instead of orally or even just the optional worksheets. Essentially, it aids in practicing handwriting, as well as the very basic structures of writing within the "writing" portion. However, it lacks in working through the art of writing, which I is why I'd include WWE. 

 

But SWB disagrees with you. She says it does teach writing and teaches it well.

[Aloha2U]

And yet she still developed her own writing program, which complements the grammar portion of R&S English quite nicely. ;)

 

Regardless, it comes down to what suits the OP and her childrens' needs. I offered my opinion from our experience as food for thought.

[Ellie]

And yet she still developed her own writing program, which complements the grammar portion of R&S English quite nicely. ;)

 

Regardless, it comes down to what suits the OP and her childrens' needs. I offered my opinion from our experience as food for thought.

 

She wrote her own because she teaches differently, not because R&S isn't enough. :-)

 

Of course it comes down to what suits the OP, and of course you offered your opinion, just as I offered mine. :-)

[lucylu0508]

I appreciate everyone's response and opinions, that's exactly what I was looking for- Thank you!

 

One more question for anyone: 

 

I have been reading the thread on the main page, about Learning Language Through Lit (now I guess it's English Lessons through Llit) and it seems as though that is a comprehensive LA program as well. Does anyone have any personal experience/opinion of one program over the other? It seems as though every time I settle on a decision for what to use, I discover another option. 

 

 

 

 

:D

 

We've been using Dancing Bears all this year and will continue on with it, since I'm seeing improvement.

 

R&S Spelling 2 has been just about perfect for my DD (she's just now reading books like Frog & Toad, with help).  Some of the spelling words have been "easier" but she's getting a lot of good practice reading the instructions for herself.  I think it's been beneficial, overall. 

I'm going to look into Dancing Bears, thank you  :)

[happyWImom]

We tried LLATL, and I wanted to use it because it does cover everything.  I'm not sure why it didn't work for us.  It could have been when we tried it-it took too much time to do with each child when I had more than one to teach; I'm not sure.  Many people think it's not rigorous enough, they don't retain the info., etc.....  We never did it long enough for me to determine that.  Sorry I can't give you more.

[lucylu0508]

We tried LLATL, and I wanted to use it because it does cover everything.  I'm not sure why it didn't work for us.  It could have been when we tried it-it took too much time to do with each child when I had more than one to teach; I'm not sure.  Many people think it's not rigorous enough, they don't retain the info., etc.....  We never did it long enough for me to determine that.  Sorry I can't give you more.

Thank you :) I have read on multiple reviews that LLATL is not rigorous enough so I ruled that one out. However, the one I mentioned is this one: 

 

http://www.lulu.com/shop/kathy-jo-devore/english-lessons-through-literature-level-2/paperback/product-21565485.html

 

I kept confusing it with LLATL and actually have ruled it out the entire time because I thought they were one and the same (titles were too similar) but it's a different program :)

[SilverMoon]

R&S English does contain writing lessons but I think there's debate whether or not R&S English contains enough writing. I personally prefer Just Write to WWE (but I'm sure I'm in the minority there).

I've found that R&S can have a lot of physical writing, if you choose to have the child do the physical writing exercises for each grammar lesson independently, instead of orally or even just the optional worksheets. Essentially, it aids in practicing handwriting, as well as the very basic structures of writing within the "writing" portion. However, it lacks in working through the art of writing, which I is why I'd include WWE.

As someone who has added writing to R&S, I agree with Ellie. *shrug* In my experience, it's most definitely not because R&S doesn't have enough writing or that it doesn't teach well. It has plenty and it is effective. The ones adding writing simply prefer a different method of instruction, such as the progymnasmata or SWB's books.

[SilverMoon]

To the OP, R&S English and spelling make a great combo. My teens used exactly that for years, and I couldn't be happier with the skills they learned. Unless your DC still needs help forming letters correctly, the only thing you need to add is a stack of high quality children's literature. :)

[Ellie]

As someone who has added writing to R&S, I agree with Ellie. *shrug* In my experience, it's most definitely not because R&S doesn't have enough writing or that it doesn't teach well. It has plenty and it is effective. The ones adding writing simply prefer a different method of instruction, such as the progymnasmata or SWB's books.

 

Exactly.

 

I really like the way Writing Strands teaches; some combination of that and something for grammar is my preferred grammar/comp instruction, but I have no qualms about recommending Rod and Staff's English series as a comprehensive English course (of course, that English course would also include phonics [if necessary], reading/literature, spelling/vocabulary, penmanship, but that's another story, lol). :-)

[mamamindy]

snip...

 

One more question for anyone: 

 

I have been reading the thread on the main page, about Learning Language Through Lit (now I guess it's English Lessons through Llit) and it seems as though that is a comprehensive LA program as well. Does anyone have any personal experience/opinion of one program over the other? It seems as though every time I settle on a decision for what to use, I discover another option. 

 

 

 

 

snip.. :)

 

There are so many options, aren't there?! ;)

 

I am using English Lessons through Literature with both of my girls (ages almost 7 and just-turned 8) and we are really enjoying it!  We were using WWE, FLL, a bit of Spelling workout at one point, and also Rod & Staff Spelling by Sound and Structure, but I have no experience with R&S grammar/composition.

 

I think the main difference between these programs are the author's educational philosophies, and how they go about teaching writing.  While you can certainly tweak anything to fit in your homeschool, ELTL fit best in ours with no fiddling on my part. ;)  And I really need no fiddling right now!

 

The things I love about ELTL are:

• Classic literature selections, and WHOLE books are being read (we check out/buy books & read them together, but you can listen to them free on librivox)
• Copy work is already chosen for me that comes from the literature
• Grammar selections are from the literature as well.
• Narration is more of a retelling than a summary, which is better to begin with IMO.  (However, we also narrate our other "subjects" - Bible, history, science.)
• Poetry and picture study is also included.
• I like that the setup is for 3lessons/week.  This made it more manageable for me.

 

I can't really think of anything that I DISlike about ELTL. :p  We are still new to the program, and I have DD8 using level 2, and DD6 in Level1.  This is totally manageable for us, even though I combined my girls using the other programs.  (WWE & FLL at the same level.)

 

The author also  has a spelling component, Reading Lessons through Literature, that I just started using.  I bought it to teach DS to read (he's 4) but it can be used as an O-G style spelling program for children that are already reading.  My girls were using - and really enjoyed - Rod & Staff Spelling, and are actually doing RLTL because they want to.  What I mean is, my DD8 doesn't really need spelling instruction - she's a natural speller - but it is helping DD6 fill in any gaps in phonics (she's been reading for about 2.5years) and with her spelling.  I like it.  It's just different.  It's not a workbook, and it's not independent.  R&S spelling is mostly independent.

 

Beginning in ELTL level 3, spelling is taught by dictation, using Charlotte Mason methods.  That is what I'll do with my oldest when she starts that level.

 

Best wishes finding what works best for your family!

[kagmypts]

I just finished up using Rod & Staff English 2 and Spelling 3 with my second grader.  By way of background, Language Arts is not his strength.  I love R&S for grammar.  It was perfect for my son and was a fantastic introduction to parts of speech.  Also as an extremely reluctant writer,he was able to write short paragraphs by the end of the year.  Being able to write 3 or 4 sentences on the same topic was huge for him.

 

With respect to the spelling program, I am really on the fence.  He did fine with the exercises (even up one level from his "grade"), but his spelling in other subjects was still horrible.  It was also a program that could be done independently.  However, I am contemplating using another program next year because none of his exercises translated into better spelling for unknown words.

 

We also used R&S Phonics 2.  We are halfway through unit 4, and I plan to finish Phonics 2 next year.  I liked the program well enough.

 

In terms of whether or not R&S English is a complete program, my opinion is that composition needs to be added in the older grades.  While R&S allows students to construct grammatically correct compositions, it is not complete enough to help kids write with style.  It does not teach kids how to make their respective writings interesting. 

[lucylu0508]

There are so many options, aren't there?! ;)

 

I am using English Lessons through Literature with both of my girls (ages almost 7 and just-turned 8) and we are really enjoying it!  We were using WWE, FLL, a bit of Spelling workout at one point, and also Rod & Staff Spelling by Sound and Structure, but I have no experience with R&S grammar/composition.

 

I think the main difference between these programs are the author's educational philosophies, and how they go about teaching writing.  While you can certainly tweak anything to fit in your homeschool, ELTL fit best in ours with no fiddling on my part. ;)  And I really need no fiddling right now!

 

The things I love about ELTL are:

• Classic literature selections, and WHOLE books are being read (we check out/buy books & read them together, but you can listen to them free on librivox)
• Copy work is already chosen for me that comes from the literature
• Grammar selections are from the literature as well.
• Narration is more of a retelling than a summary, which is better to begin with IMO.  (However, we also narrate our other "subjects" - Bible, history, science.)
• Poetry and picture study is also included.
• I like that the setup is for 3lessons/week.  This made it more manageable for me.

 

I can't really think of anything that I DISlike about ELTL. :p  We are still new to the program, and I have DD8 using level 2, and DD6 in Level1.  This is totally manageable for us, even though I combined my girls using the other programs.  (WWE & FLL at the same level.)

 

The author also  has a spelling component, Reading Lessons through Literature, that I just started using.  I bought it to teach DS to read (he's 4) but it can be used as an O-G style spelling program for children that are already reading.  My girls were using - and really enjoyed - Rod & Staff Spelling, and are actually doing RLTL because they want to.  What I mean is, my DD8 doesn't really need spelling instruction - she's a natural speller - but it is helping DD6 fill in any gaps in phonics (she's been reading for about 2.5years) and with her spelling.  I like it.  It's just different.  It's not a workbook, and it's not independent.  R&S spelling is mostly independent.

 

Beginning in ELTL level 3, spelling is taught by dictation, using Charlotte Mason methods.  That is what I'll do with my oldest when she starts that level.

 

Best wishes finding what works best for your family!

 

Wow, thank you for that post! Do you think that your DC are retaining what you've done so far with ELTL? That's the biggest issue I had with just about everything I chose for our LA last year, little retention. 

 

 

I just finished up using Rod & Staff English 2 and Spelling 3 with my second grader.  By way of background, Language Arts is not his strength.  I love R&S for grammar.  It was perfect for my son and was a fantastic introduction to parts of speech.  Also as an extremely reluctant writer,he was able to write short paragraphs by the end of the year.  Being able to write 3 or 4 sentences on the same topic was huge for him.

 

With respect to the spelling program, I am really on the fence.  He did fine with the exercises (even up one level from his "grade"), but his spelling in other subjects was still horrible.  It was also a program that could be done independently.  However, I am contemplating using another program next year because none of his exercises translated into better spelling for unknown words.

 

We also used R&S Phonics 2.  We are halfway through unit 4, and I plan to finish Phonics 2 next year.  I liked the program well enough.

 

In terms of whether or not, R&S English is a complete program, my opinion is that composition needs to be added in the older grades.  While R&S will allow students to construct grammatically correct compositions, it is not complete enough to help kids write with style.  It does not teach kids how to make their respective writings interesting. 

 

I have a question for you, if you don't mind? I was looking at the R&S Phonics for my first grader, and liked what I saw of the samples. However, it states in the description that it's a component of their reading program, should one do the reading program with the phonics? Is that necessary or could you do the phonics portion only? I thought that I was fairly sure that CLE Beginning to Read would be a good fit for my rising 1st grader but I did like the look of R&S's Phonics. 

 

And, if anyone has another recommendation for phonics practice for a rising 3rd grader who is playing catch up on reading level, I'm all ears and very appreciative. I have Dancing Bears down to check out but was trying to look into a few others as well. 

 

I honestly cannot believe how much I am obsessing over these decisions. I think I'm all set on something and then I read a couple of threads and add a few more choices into the mix and start over again. 

 

Again, thank you to everyone that took the time to respond-opinions really do help vs. just looking at the scope and sequence. 

[Ellie]

 

I have a question for you, if you don't mind? I was looking at the R&S Phonics for my first grader, and liked what I saw of the samples. However, it states in the description that it's a component of their reading program, should one do the reading program with the phonics? Is that necessary or could you do the phonics portion only? I thought that I was fairly sure that CLE Beginning to Read would be a good fit for my rising 1st grader but I did like the look of R&S's Phonics. 

 

And, if anyone has another recommendation for phonics practice for a rising 3rd grader who is playing catch up on reading level, I'm all ears and very appreciative. I have Dancing Bears down to check out but was trying to look into a few others as well. 

 

I honestly cannot believe how much I am obsessing over these decisions. I think I'm all set on something and then I read a couple of threads and add a few more choices into the mix and start over again. 

 

Again, thank you to everyone that took the time to respond-opinions really do help vs. just looking at the scope and sequence. 

 

Depends on which grade level you're looking at. :-)

 

Only first and second grade materials include specific phonics instruction, in addition to the *reading* instruction. The phonics portion is true phonics, but the *reading* portion is sight-reading. I just can't get behind sight-reading at any level.

 

My recommendation would be Spalding. It would be everything you'd need for this year: reading, spelling (children learn to read/improve their reading skills through spelling), penmanship, capitalization and punctuation, simple writing, in one fell swoop. One manual (Writing Road to Reading), one set of phonogram cards, and you're good to go for all your children, forever. (Your 8yo would also keep a spelling notebook.)

[kagmypts]

Wow, thank you for that post! Do you think that your DC are retaining what you've done so far with ELTL? That's the biggest issue I had with just about everything I chose for our LA last year, little retention. 

 

 

 

I have a question for you, if you don't mind? I was looking at the R&S Phonics for my first grader, and liked what I saw of the samples. However, it states in the description that it's a component of their reading program, should one do the reading program with the phonics? Is that necessary or could you do the phonics portion only? I thought that I was fairly sure that CLE Beginning to Read would be a good fit for my rising 1st grader but I did like the look of R&S's Phonics. 

 

And, if anyone has another recommendation for phonics practice for a rising 3rd grader who is playing catch up on reading level, I'm all ears and very appreciative. I have Dancing Bears down to check out but was trying to look into a few others as well. 

 

I honestly cannot believe how much I am obsessing over these decisions. I think I'm all set on something and then I read a couple of threads and add a few more choices into the mix and start over again. 

 

Again, thank you to everyone that took the time to respond-opinions really do help vs. just looking at the scope and sequence. 

 

With respect to R&S phonics, I did not use the R&S reading program when I used it with my son.  We had no problems doing the phonics portion by itself.  While I liked the phonics program, I think that DS was unimpressed with black and white page after black and white page.  In our case, I think that color graphics would have done wonders!  I did, however, like the phonics instruction and toward the end of the year my son finally seemed to retain most of what he had learned.  Like I said in my previous post, we plan to complete Phonics 2 next year.

 

ETA - I would strongly recommend the TM since some of the graphics can be extremely confusing.

[Ellie]

 

 

ETA - I would strongly recommend the TM since some of the graphics can be extremely confusing.

 

All of the actual instruction is in the teacher manual. You're supposed to teach first, then give the dc the seatwork which just reinforces what you have already taught. IOW, you aren't supposed to give the children a workbook page and tell them how to do it. :-)

[kagmypts]

All of the actual instruction is in the teacher manual. You're supposed to teach first, then give the dc the seatwork which just reinforces what you have already taught. IOW, you aren't supposed to give the children a workbook page and tell them how to do it. :-)

 

Are you actually serious with this comment?  Are you really insinuating that after a year of doing phonics with my son that I don't know how to teach?  Am I misreading what you wrote?  Even AFTER teaching my son, many of the graphics are still confusing.  In numerous threads, I see people asking whether the TMs are necessary.  Aside from the "actual instruction" in the TM, I think that the questionable graphics are reason enough to buy the TM.  With all due respect, all of the phonics instruction amounts to nothing if my son needs to find a word that begins with /f/, and he sees pictures of a stable, car, and park. Oh wait, that stable is actually a farm.

[Ellie]

Are you actually serious with this comment?  Are you really insinuating that after a year of doing phonics with my son that I don't know how to teach?  Even AFTER teaching my son, many of the graphics are still confusing.  In numerous threads, I see people asking about whether or not the TMs are necessary.  Aside from the "actual instruction" in the TM, I think that the questionable graphics are reason enough to buy the TM.  With all due respect, all of the phonics instruction amounts to nothing if my son needs to find a word that begins with /f/, and he sees pictures of a stable, car, and park. Oh wait, that stable is actually a farm.

 

Goodness.

 

I'm not insinuating anything. 

 

Perhaps I should not have used "you" but a more general "one," as in "One is supposed to teach first..." Many people hand their children the worksheets and teach the page. The first grade Bible Nurture and Reader materials were not intended to be used that way. That was my only point. It was not a commentary on your ability to teach, nor on whether the teacher manuals are necessary for any of the other subjects.

 

:chillpill:

[kagmypts]

Goodness.

 

I'm not insinuating anything. 

 

Perhaps I should not have used "you" but a more general "one," as in "One is supposed to teach first..." Many people hand their children the worksheets and teach the page. The first grade Bible Nurture and Reader materials were not intended to be used that way. That was my only point. It was not a commentary on your ability to teach, nor on whether the teacher manuals are necessary for any of the other subjects.

 

:chillpill:

Of course, one may be able to see the confusion on my part.  You selectively quote part of my response and then proceed to say, "You're supposed to teach first."  You end your response with a cute :-)  Thanks for clearing up the confusion though.

 

OP, sorry for deriding your thread, and good luck with your decision.

[Ellie]

Of course, one may be able to see the confusion on my part.  You selectively quote part of my response and then proceed to say, "You're supposed to teach first."  You end your response with a cute :-)  Thanks for clearing up the confusion though.

 

 

 

I'm sorry you're determined to be offended.

[Heidi]

I love R&S English.  I think the writing is appropriate in R&S for grades 3 & 4 (which are what we've completed so far). I do have my girls do other writing too because they are ready for more writing (3rd grader is doing written narrations in history, but she is advanced in that area).

However, if your 3rd grader is struggling to read, he would not need more writing than what is in R&S 3 unless you wanted to add in some copy work from literature, and perhaps getting into the practice of orally narrating daily.

 

As for phonics instruction, I've used a few programs, including R&S.  I really love Phonics Pathways the most.  It is very effective.  My dd6 is learning to read.  She reads in context very well.  If I give her a book, she reads it.  But our reading lessons in Phonics Pathways are difficult for because it forces her to read phonetically rather than in context.  I believe this will benefit her in the long run.  she has a strong tendency to sight read, but Phonics Pathways curbs that tendency and forces pure phonics.  She reads a section from PP and then I dictate a few words for her to write.  This has been very effective.

 

You could also use Reading Lessons through Literature with both your 1st and 3rd grader.  It is a spelling/reading program (another Spalding spin-off).  It looks great!

 

I just found English Lessons through Literature too.  I am definitely going to use it for my rising 1st grader, both ELtL and RLtL, definitely for 1st and 2nd grade and maybe continue through the whole program, or switch to R&S 3 in 3rd grade.

 

I *almost* switched my older girls from R&S to ELtL the other day, but I have decided against it.  They are too advanced for the levels that are out so it wouldn't be worth the price.  They are going to continue in R&S.

 

The grammar does not look as strong (drill and kill) in ELtL as in R&S in 3rd and 4th grade, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing.  If I had a rising 3rd grader, I would probably put him in ELtL 3 over R&S 3.  It looks like a really beautiful program.  I would only do that if I had a strong background in grammar so that I could supplement on the fly if need be.  I don't have a strong background in grammar, so R&S has been wonderful for *me*.   My kids don't necessarily need the explicit grammar contained in R&S. 

 

 

[happyWImom]

Not to confuse you with yet another product, but have you considered Explode the Code?  Sorry, i haven't re-read all of the comments to see what you're looking for  with phonics/reading, but we used ETC levels 2-7.  I feel that my dc not only learned phonics but spelling as well with ETC.  We didn't use a spelling curriculum for the longest time (because I could never find the right one and there was never enough time to fit everything in) but I felt like they were still doing well because of ETC.  It's easy to schedule in, and you can do as many or as few pages as you have time for.  

[angela in ohio]

I have used R&S English 3-10 with my two dc who are 18 and 16. I am currently using it with my 11 yo ds, as well. I have also taught writing at co-ops and private classes for many years. Here is my perspective...

 

Get the three programs you listed and begin using them consistently. If you then feel you need to add something, look around at Christmas break. Better to add later than to set yourself up for failure with over-scheduling the beginning of the year. Keep in mind, though, as you think about whether to add more writing to R&S that the writing instruction builds gradually. It jumps up a lot after 6th grade or so. It is hard to get advice on R&S English from people who have used it in only the early years so far because it does change so much over the years in focus. I always recommend extending the writing instruction in 3-6 by repeating the lessons with other topics. I assume it was designed to be taught in a school setting where the teacher would also be assigning other writing in subject areas. I did use IEW and some other things, too, because I like overkill in writing and reading.

 

I am not at all familiar with their Phonics program; it sounds like Ellie is, so I would listen to her on that one. I used How to Tutor (Alpha Phonics) with my first two and Horizons Phonics with the third. We did use Pentime, and I always recommend it.

 

You will not regret using R&S. R&S English, logic/rhetoric, and good literature led to some amazing results in my dc. The bottom line is that the grammar instruction alone in R&S, if you help your students apply it to their writing, would make them a better writer than just about anything else.

[lucylu0508]

Thank you, so very much to all of you for taking the time and giving your advice and experience. I'm going to list each suggestion and compare them all. I'm relieved to know that so many of you think quite highly of the R&S program :)

[mamamindy]

Wow, thank you for that post! Do you think that your DC are retaining what you've done so far with ELTL? That's the biggest issue I had with just about everything I chose for our LA last year, little retention. 

 

 

 

Although we haven't been at it very long, it sure seems so!  We had *one* lesson discussing homophones a couple weeks ago, and my DC are picking out and talking about homophones all over the place, if that gives you any encouragement!  (For the record, only DD8 had the lesson, but apparently she told DD6 about it. :P)

 

 

And as a PP mentioned, I would use either Spalding or Reading Lessons through Literature (the program I linked above) for continuing phonics instruction for your 3rd grader.  My 6 yo has been reading fluently for some time, but we never actually completed a phonics program (it became laborious for us since she was reading so well) however, now I see that she needs some help sounding out longer, or unfamiliar, words.  RLTL has helped her to know why words sound the way they do.  It's encouraged her to slow down when she's reading words she doesn't know.  It's given her confidence.  I have Spalding and RLTL.  They are very similar.  Spalding is cheaper, but I think that RLTL is much, much easier to start using.  Although you'd always have Ellie to ask all of your Spalding-related questions. ;)