What do you say/do when people "dis" your kid's major, or college, etc.

[Guest]

SIL is limited by what I consider an old way of thinking. Good grades = good college = good job kind of thinking. It is sad, really. Her own four kids are grown and I have seen how her thinking has hurt her kids, at least in some ways. First child quit college. She was so anti-proud. I remember trying to encourage *her* that it wasn't the end of the world, that he will pave his own way. (Which he did. He owns an excavation and boring company.) Her second got exactly the business degree she wished, got a job at a bank and then quit to be a farmer within six months. :D She would not even talk about it at first. But he is happy as can be! He loves living in a little "hick town" and working with livestock. He also has a lovely wife and baby. Her third got exactly the degree SIL wanted also, and got a Master's. She is now a CPA, successful by typical measures and SIL is very proud. But dear niece is not happy. She says she wishes she had become a nurse. She is pleased that she makes a good salary, but she finds nothing joyful about, "sitting around in a tiny office with a bunch of stuffy old men." (Her words.) finally, her youngest got a business degree, a relevant job and moved twelve-hundred miles away. He appears to be happy in life (when I see him, which is rare). Not that it's necessarily indicative of anything bad to move far from home -certainly, that can be a legitimate choice. But in his case, I have to wonder if he felt the need for putting distance in more than other kids might.

[albeto.]

I certainly do not equate a job in marine bio or one as a writer or in theatre as improbable as that of a professional athlete.

 

The OP was looking for some support here.  I don't believe that it was her intention to see her daughter being dissed by fellow boardies who view her choices as impractical!

 

Further, who is say that a student in the liberal arts lacks some of those so called practical skills.  Most engineers I know did not have time to double major in a second language, for example.  That English or Philosophy major may have an entrepreneurial venture going on the side. 

 

Sorry--the word "practical" just pushes my buttons!  Maybe I should slip out of here while I can....

 

Oops, I really didn't mean my comment the way I think you read it. I certainly don't consider these careers improbable either. Quite the opposite. 

 

I'm not sure where the mix-up is, but I don't think I made myself clear. 

 

I don't mean to disagree with you, but I'm afraid to try and explain myself and make it worse.

 

:ph34r:

[Catwoman]

I would be very wise to learn from you. I don't know why I have such a difficult time working out a way to communicate beneficially with this one particular SIL. In all these years, I have not figured out the best response that will either help her be more gracious or just get her to close her mouth. Probably needless to say, but she made dire predictions about hsing in the first place. It's as though seeing that none of those predictions came to be makes no difference in her other closed opinions. She herself detests English and has no skill with language. It is as though she cannot comprehend that someone else might be talented in that area and, thus, it makes sense for kids to pursue their own areas of interest and skill.

I may be way off-base here, but I suspect that your SIL would have something snotty to say about any major your dd chose, whether it was English or Accounting or Medicine or nuclear physics.

 

She's an equal opportunity idiot.

[Guest]

I may be way off-base here, but I suspect that your SIL would have something snotty to say about any major your dd chose, whether it was English or Accounting or Medicine or nuclear physics.

 

She's an equal opportunity idiot.

I'm kinda thinking you know her.

 

Although it would probably be hard for her to say anything amiss if DD went to her kids' college and majored in what they did.

[kiana]

I'm kinda thinking you know her.

 

Although it would probably be hard for her to say anything amiss if DD went to her kids' college and majored in what they did.

 

Nah, she could start to drop insinuations about how your kid isn't as special as her kids and won't be able to handle it.

[Catwoman]

I'm kinda thinking you know her.

 

Although it would probably be hard for her to say anything amiss if DD went to her kids' college and majored in what they did.

She'd say it was a shame that your dd had to copy her kids instead of being more independent.

 

And then she would point out how lucky your dd is to have her as her aunt, because your dd needed a good maternal influence, what with you being so clueless and all. ;)

 

She sounds awful.

[Guest]

She's pretty...special.

 

Probably some Deity's means of granting some long-forgotten prayer to be more patient.

[Gil]

If, indeed, you are unlucky enough to have family that would do this. <glare> do you defend your child's choices? Shrug and say you figure it will all work out? Poison their coffee?

I have people 'dis' my choices too and I try to remember to just look at them, blink and look away. Take a 'What.the.hell.ever.man.' attitude and ignore their childish or narrow-minded behavior.

 

This is tough, parental pride and dignity is on the line where our young are concerned. Your knee-jerk reaction is probably already defensive by nature. But stop--Do they want to be enlightened? Are they genuinely curious about why your kids are majoring in The Physics of Underwater Basket Weaving? No? Then they are just dumping all over your kids and it says more about them than you or your kids.Scr3w them. Let it go. Don't begrudge, don't get angry. Let it go.

 

If they insist just shrug and say: "It wasn't my decision, it was Sons. I like to think that I raised a level headed and persistent child, even if he can't go into his field, I'm confident than he can use his education anywhere." Then change the subject. Don't engage them in just a bash-fest. If they persist just say: "Why don't you ask Son?"

 

Your kids are young adults and if they are in a liberal arts major, I'm sure they are hearing plenty of guff about their choice even right there on campus, they'll probably know what to say to shut old Aunt Marge up.

 

 

I am not looking forward to visiting my family this summer, I don't want anyone to know we've been homeschooling because I can already hear their snide and destructive comments. To prepare myself, I have already began talking to the boys about being comfortable in and standing by their decisions--not for the sake of bullheadedness, but if you don't stand for something you'll fall for anything and I'd rather my kids make a stand. We do us and thats all there is too it.

 

However, I'm a college student. I'm not going to lie, I roll my eyes at the "Liberal Arts" majors. I don't "get" why anyone would want to major in Klingon Literature or Martian Culture or whatever it is that they are majoring in that doesn't seem the least bit practical but oh well. There's a bit of student culture in the teasing that Liberal Arts majors endure and I'm not going to pretend that I don't partake in it, but forget about the Stem Majors and the Practical Major people. You have to recognize that many people have an impoverished mindset so many people who go into those majors aren't smart or curious about the field, they are chasing $$$ like poor people are wont to do.

 

I think about what John Adams said and keep my damn mouth shut when a Liberal Arts major is around, not because I am shy to tell them that *I* don't see the value of thier degree, but because I figure they must be the 3rd generation John Adams spoke about and I hope that my grandkids will be that 3rd gen. too.

 

So, what do I recommend you do when you have to be around these people? I recommend that you get this quote put on a shirt and a mug and that you wear the shirt and use the mug. When they strike up this conversation, say: "Oh, excuse me, I need to grab my coffee..." and then smile at the wayward view of the narrow minded peons.

 

The John Adams quote I keep referencing

 

I must study politics and war that my sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy. My sons ought to study mathematics and philosophy, geography, natural history, naval architecture, navigation, commerce, and agriculture, in order to give their children a right to study painting, poetry, music, architecture, statuary, tapestry, and porcelain -- John Adams

 

[Dmmetler]

Completely agree. I've been lucky enough to meet, and in some cases befriend, many pioneers in computing. The majority of them have degrees in math, physics, music, literature, or English. One of my closest friends, who has over 70 computing patents in multiple countries, majored in Communications. Music seems to be an especially common one among the pioneers. And many computing experts who did not major in music still seem to play multiple instruments and/or are in a band.

 

They are just Thinkers, with a capital T.

 

Most of them have gotten big computing ideas from doing drugs too, but let's not go there.  :lol:

 

I have a friend with a PhD in musicology who was one of the founders of a business software company and sold out to IBM-and now teaches computer science/IT classes at the college level ;). I'm guessing that there was someone out there who wondered what the heck he was going to do with a degree in musicology.

[Elisabet1]

My FIL threw a hissy when my dh decided to major in computer science. He said that sounded like a fake useless degree. This was in the 90's. (dh went to college in 1989, but didn't chose that major until later). FIL went so far as to cut dh off financially if he majored in that because it was such a crazy, flighty degree.

[mom2bee]

Question: What do you say/do when people "dis" your kid's major, or college, etc.

 

Answer: It sure is a good thing we don't value your opinion on this matter.

 

Smile politely while your saying it, pat them affectionately on the shoulder and nod your head as if you are agreeing with their position.

It will totally throw them so far off base to have your body language say "I agree" and your actual language to say "I couldn't care less what you think."

[Desert Strawberry]

If I understand correctly, an analogy might be professional sports. If that's the dream of a child, go for it. But by all means they should recognize the likelihood of landing a job in their dream career is what, less than getting struck by lightning? Or something. Anyway, being practical has its advantages, and many dream careers simply are not practical. 

 

I don't think marine science, or any hard science, is a dead field, though. There are many grants that fund research for exploration and advancement of knowledge. Learning how to find and write good grants is essential, btw, so Quill, I'd make sure you child knows how to write using pertinent buzz words without sounding like a schmuck. 

Our kid majored in marine biology. We all rolled our eyes a bit. He graduated last week and he's moving to his bio-dad's house in a small town on the gulf coast. His mom is furious. 

He wants to work with wildlife and fisheries. Looks to me like he's making practical choices considering his goal.

[ThisIsTheDay]

I would be very wise to learn from you. I don't know why I have such a difficult time working out a way to communicate beneficially with this one particular SIL. In all these years, I have not figured out the best response that will either help her be more gracious or just get her to close her mouth. Probably needless to say, but she made dire predictions about hsing in the first place. It's as though seeing that none of those predictions came to be makes no difference in her other closed opinions. She herself detests English and has no skill with language. It is as though she cannot comprehend that someone else might be talented in that area and, thus, it makes sense for kids to pursue their own areas of interest and skill.

 

You're talking about family, so you know what kind of response will work best for them.  Some would honestly appreciate and value an answer; others just say what they say because they're jerks.

 

 

I guess I don't know how this would actually work IRL. It would just seem like *i'm* the b@tch. I mean, a person is fully within their boundaries to ask, "What does KG plan to major in?" Other people ask this often and I don't think it's nosy or annoying. It's the questions that come after my answer that make me sorry I'm stuck talking to SIL.

 

Yes, it's okay to ask. It's not okay to comment rudely after you've answered.  People who do this won't think you're being a b@tch. They probably get similar responses all the time.  ;)

 

 

I handle it in very much the same way that Creekland does, but if the person still doesn't back down after that conversation, then I get serious about establishing a "This is no longer up for discussion" boundary.

 

There's always the answer of, "If you're not paying their tuition, it's none of your business!"

 

I've taken this approach with a family member.  I've listened to sarcastic and rude comments for years.  For the most part, I no longer allow any discussion about homeschooling, because I know how that conversation will end.

 

I got the, "How are you paying for college" question, and after trying to dodge it, I replied, "We just are, but if you're willing to chip in, let me know, and I'll be happy to give you details."  (I had to be pretty sure that no money was forthcoming, haha.)

 

My dd has completed two years of college Chinese (not majoring in it though).  Right now, the question I get asked during every conversation is, "Has she gotten a job at a Chinese restaurant yet?"  He's the funniest person he knows.  :glare:

[Elisabet1]

I agree with the "if you are not paying the tuition, butt out" answer. A lot of people felt my daughter just HAD to go to A&M or UT Austin. She got in to both. But she received no scholarships or financial aid (which she should have, but got nothing, do not know why, their financial aid offices are not transparent) so those schools do not work out. 

 

We never tell people that daughter really wanted to go to those, it is none of their business. In the end, she went with an LAC that gave her excellent financial aid and scholarships. In fact, the financial aid only totalled $3k, everything else is in scholarships. In the beginning, she was only looking for LACs anyway. She only applied to A&M because of the scholarship they promised her. And UT Austin because it is considered the end all be all here, so, she applied. When we visited, she eventually did fall for both schools. I liked UT Austin best and she liked A&M best. But, we liked both. So when neither school came forth with any sort of financial aid, for no apparent reasons, it was quite upsetting. (I still think there should be a complaint process or something, they are state schools, tax payer supported, there should be some accountability or transparency).

 

Anyway, the point is, people give her a hard time, a couple of people give her an extra hard time, so I come back and just tell them if they have the money to pay, we do not, but, we would happily let them pay her way through. That actually stopped the constant rude arguments people were trying on us.

[Guest]

Posted 30 May 2014 - 10:38 AM

I agree with the "if you are not paying the tuition, butt out" answer. A lot of people felt my daughter just HAD to go to A&M or UT Austin. She got in to both. But she received no scholarships or financial aid (which she should have, but got nothing, do not know why, their financial aid offices are not transparent) so those schools do not work out.

This is one thing that surprises me, too. A couple of in-laws have asked, "Where IS kg going to college?" After which I remind them she is finishing 11th grade - we do not know yet. I tell them here are a few of her top interests right now, but how the $$$ pans out is a MAJOR factor. If they don't offer substantial support, it does not matter how pretty the campus is or how much we puffy-heart loved the dorms! I *hope* it happens to pan out such that KG does go to a school where she/we loved the campus and/or thought the dorms were very nice. But they still gotta show me the money.

[Susan in TN]

My response is that since there is really no guarantee of job/career for any major, I would prefer that my child study something he loves. He will attend the best college we can reasonably pay for either outright or with small loans if necessary. The rest I leave in God's hands, while constantly reminding myself that I am not God ;).

 

It might be easier for dh and I to have this mindset since we both have degrees in music and neither of us currently have "careers" that coincide directly with those degrees. We are OK with that, and are generally happy and contented in our current situation, which I think makes a huge difference.

[Denise in Florida]

I shrug and say something like, "Kid has thought a lot about this choice, and I have confidence he/she will make it work."

 

Edited to add: I have a fair amount of practice with this kind of thing, since my daughter has a degree in theatre/music and my son is headed for a musical theatre/dance degree. Because both of mine are quite clearly extremely intellectually gifted, people are often surprised that neither has gone/is going the expected route into law or medicine or something STEM related. 

 

Like conversations about most other non-traditional choices we've made, I find that these conversations are much less stressful when I feel genuinely secure in my own choices and judgment. Since I really do believe that my kids are making the educational choices that are appropriate for them and that they will do well in their chosen paths, it's not at all difficult for me to say as much with confidence.

 

This exactly.

 

I have one in Art School and one studying Opera in Germany.  Yes, people ask "what will they do with that?" I look at them like I don't understand the question and say 'whatever they want to do".

 

I really don't understand that question. To me college was about growing and exploring. I have never considered it a 'trade school' to learn a job.  Unless the job requires a specific set of information (engineering, medicine etc), most people develop a good education and apply those skills to whatever job they are interested in.

 

I had a "University Studies" degree and worked as a Contract Manager. My employer taught me the specific work order software we used and we did constant training on negotiations and Federal Acquistions Regulations.  I don't remember those majors in my school...ha

[Laura Corin]

My response is that since there is really no guarantee of job/career for any major, I would prefer that my child study something he loves.

 

On our university tours it was impressed on us that most students will not get a good degree unless they are studying something they love: when that essay really needs to be written, they will find something else to do.  We were all strongly advised to go for a university with a good reputation, where the student can get a good degree studying what they love.  Better that than failing or dropping out.

 

Calvin is going to study English and Classics.

 

L

[cathmom]

Well, my dad told me recently, after I'd already been accepted to my PhD program 600 miles away, that I should investigate online PhDs because they were just as good and that my reasons for getting a PhD sounded like I "just wanted to be a student for the rest of my life." Thanks, Dad. Way to be supportive.

 

If I haven't done anything you've thought I should since I was 17, what makes you think I'm going to start now?

[elegantlion]

Well, my dad told me recently, after I'd already been accepted to my PhD program 600 miles away, that I should investigate online PhDs because they were just as good and that my reasons for getting a PhD sounded like I "just wanted to be a student for the rest of my life." Thanks, Dad. Way to be supportive.

 

If I haven't done anything you've thought I should since I was 17, what makes you think I'm going to start now?

 

 

My parents don't really get why I'm starting my college career in my 40s. They're supportive, but they don't get it. 

 

I wish you all the best on your new endeavor. 

My response is that since there is really no guarantee of job/career for any major,

 

I think we owe our students the truth, even if difficult, and the truth is that there are very different job markets for different majors, and it is naive to say that all majors have equivalent employment possibilities .

[bettyandbob]

I think we owe our students the truth, even if difficult, and the truth is that there are very different job markets for different majors, and it is naive to say that all majors have equivalent employment possibilities .

 

 

It is naive to think majoring in a field that one has marginal interest will result in a job simply because the field is in demand. Persons who major in something simply because of its demand in the job market without regard to their own skills or interests are likely to only have mediocre performance educationally, mediocre performance if they land a job and may not be able to stay in the field. 

 

Sure inform your student that an BA in history does not have an obvious job application. That does not mean that student should major in computer science. The person who loves history may not love coding. The person who loves history may develop excellent written and verbal communication and research skills. They may find many internships through college that we adults never thought and end up in a field that perfectly suits them. If we propel that same person down the computer path they may be unhappy and unenthusiastic throughout college, never manage to land an internship and have a difficult time getting an actual job. 

[Susan in TN]

I think we owe our students the truth, even if difficult, and the truth is that there are very different job markets for different majors, and it is naive to say that all majors have equivalent employment possibilities .

I agree completely.

[Denise in Florida]

I think we owe our students the truth, even if difficult, and the truth is that there are very different job markets for different majors, and it is naive to say that all majors have equivalent employment possibilities .

 

How would you apply this?  In reality any major, even the hot ones, does not come with a job guarantee. Even if the student does start in their field most people change fields several times in the course of their lives. 

 

I am not referring to majors which apply to a specific career such as nursing, teaching, law etc. 

 

I might suggest to a child with a 'soft' major to work on the following:

 

Work a job if possible, try for an internship, volunteer, etc.  

Look around at where you want to go BEFORE final semester of senior year.  :001_smile:

Take extra 'practical' course work for electives.  My music major took an independent study credit in piano tuning. 

I was a University Studies major, I took electives in accounting and computer science (I ended up working in Contract Management)

 

In the end while their is a huge difference between nursing and liberal arts, there is not that big a difference (career wise) between business and english. 

 

Help them see where to shore up the major they are passionate about. 

 

 

How would you apply this?  In reality any major, even the hot ones, does not come with a job guarantee. Even if the student does start in their field most people change fields several times in the course of their lives. 

 

 

Of course there are no guarantees.  But there are statistics.  And I think it is incredibly disingenuous to say that a computer science major may not get a job, but someone with a degree in classics may end up the wealthiest private citizen in the UK, even if both are true. 

 

Most big state universities offer north of 100 majors.  I suspect most students could find more than one that they'd be perfectly happy with.  Why not choose one from that set that has good job prospects?

 

Most majors have an undergraduate club.  I think it is incredibly valuable for college freshman to attend these clubs, and ask good questions of the seniors in their prospective fields.  What professors are the best?  Where are you finding interships?  What's a good minor with this major, or double major?  What's the job market like?  What are your job interviews like? Who is going to graduate school?  

 

I have unbounded respect for our boardie, elegantlion, who is returning to school and at the same time homeschooling her high schooler.  In another post, which I can't link to, she talks about how her preferred major, archaeology, probably isn't going to result in the kind of job she'd like to have.  So, she's looking around, thinking about adding on a minor or certificate program to do something that will result in a job she will enjoy, even if it isn't her A #1 choice.  Good on her.

 

 

I was a University Studies major, I took electives in accounting and computer science (I ended up working in Contract Management)

 

One aspect I'm particularly aware of is how different the college experience is for our kids than it was for us growing up, in so many different ways.

 

Of course, these kinds of conversations are perfectly fine to have with our own children, but downright rude with others'.

[Denise in Florida]

Of course there are no guarantees.  But there are statistics.  And I think it is incredibly disingenuous to say that a computer science major may not get a job, but someone with a degree in classics may end up the wealthiest private citizen in the UK, even if both are true. 

 

 

Most big state universities offer north of 100 majors.  I suspect most students could find more than one that they'd be perfectly happy with.  Why not choose one from that set that has good job prospects?

 

This makes sense. Also it helps to talk to the student and help them have a more detailed goal than "go to college, get a job".

However, most students don't know what the possibilities are and a good broad liberal arts background is an excellent place to start.  

 

Most majors have an undergraduate club.  I think it is incredibly valuable for college freshman to attend these clubs, and ask good questions of the seniors in their prospective fields.  What professors are the best?  Where are you finding interships?  What's a good minor with this major, or double major?  What's the job market like?  What are your job interviews like? Who is going to graduate school?  

 

Yes, I agree ...it takes more than just show up, take classes, get degree...

 

 

I have unbounded respect for our boardie, elegantlion, who is returning to school and at the same time homeschooling her high schooler.  In another post, which I can't link to, she talks about how her preferred major, archaeology, probably isn't going to result in the kind of job she'd like to have.  So, she's looking around, thinking about adding on a minor or certificate program to do something that will result in a job she will enjoy, even if it isn't her A #1 choice.  Good on her.

 

I agree.  There plenty of 'job training' continued education type training that can be picked up,  but it is easier to add practical skills to a sound core than it is to breathe passion/life into a job you hate. 

 

One aspect I'm particularly aware of is how different the college experience is for our kids than it was for us growing up, in so many different ways.

 

Of course, these kinds of conversations are perfectly fine to have with our own children, but downright rude with others'.

 

I can give my girls advice, but ultimately it is their life and their choice, their commitment.

 

 

[creekland]

Of course there are no guarantees.  But there are statistics.  And I think it is incredibly disingenuous to say that a computer science major may not get a job, but someone with a degree in classics may end up the wealthiest private citizen in the UK, even if both are true. 

 

Most big state universities offer north of 100 majors.  I suspect most students could find more than one that they'd be perfectly happy with.  Why not choose one from that set that has good job prospects?

 

 

Computer science is definitely a field where if one doesn't have an inkling of natural talent, it's tough to get a good job and hold it down for long.  Of course, most figure out that they aren't cut out for it during their classes and change majors.

 

I could say the same for nursing, engineering, and other "hot" majors.  In all three cases I could name multiple examples of those who thought they would head that direction, then either changed, or are now not working in that field.  I can even name a person who made it through med school (on mom's dime) and then changed his mind and now works as a chef.

 

IMO/IME, what's really important is that one have a talk with youngsters and make sure they know the odds and they know the average salary for their desired professions.  They know if they're likely to have to relocated, and if so, where.  They know to take advantage of what their (carefully selected) school offers while they are still in it.  They know how to network (oldest found his job from an alumni of his school - the job was never advertised).  They brush up on people skills (this latter can be the most important trait).

 

Then, they should go to school with a major (or more generic field) in mind, but keep their eyes open.  Maybe they'll find something they love more that they didn't even know existed.  Maybe they'll find they aren't as competitive in their chosen field as they thought they would be.  Adjust as needed.  Find jobs/internships/work study that matches.  Make contacts.  Sell themselves (NOT meaning sell their soul).

 

The majority of college grads do get jobs and many do get them in their field, but if one just plods through college going to classes (or not), partying, and never having anyone know their name (aside from video game partners), their degree isn't going to be worth as much.

 

Pay does vary - they should know that.  But I've yet to see students from our average high school who I thought would do well in college end up disappointed regardless of their major.  Some did change their major to fit better.  Those who slogged through high school and did the same in college, well, would YOU want to hire them?

 

[Jane in NC]

Of course there are no guarantees.  But there are statistics.  And I think it is incredibly disingenuous to say that a computer science major may not get a job, but someone with a degree in classics may end up the wealthiest private citizen in the UK, even if both are true. 

 

Most big state universities offer north of 100 majors.  I suspect most students could find more than one that they'd be perfectly happy with.  Why not choose one from that set that has good job prospects?

 

Most majors have an undergraduate club.  I think it is incredibly valuable for college freshman to attend these clubs, and ask good questions of the seniors in their prospective fields.  What professors are the best?  Where are you finding interships?  What's a good minor with this major, or double major?  What's the job market like?  What are your job interviews like? Who is going to graduate school?  

 

The question you raise (in the bold) is one which depends on market fluctuations.  For example, there was a crop of journalism majors who could always find a job--maybe not at the NY Times, but at a small weekly newspaper in a rural area or covering the beats for an urban daily.  Many newspapers today function on minimal staff and use correspondents who don't make a living on writing but earn a side income doing piece work.  There must have been a point where the handwriting on the wall (rise of the Internet, preference for television broadcast news) became apparent; but I suspect that there are bunches of journalism majors who began college with decent prospects only to find they had fizzled by graduation.

 

A number of technology degrees appear safe--until a way is determined to outsource them.  One of our 55 year old computer guy pals was laid off two years ago when this happened.  It took him six months, but he found another job fortunately.

 

I read that the large vision insurance providers are looking for ways to get into the mail order eyeglass market.  Is everything medically related going to be the same as it is now? I doubt it.

 

GGardner, I believe I hear what you are saying but I am uncomfortable with it.  Maybe it is because I love education for education's sake--something I recognize is not a financial practicality for all.  I think perhaps my discomfort also stems from some families we have known who have dictated what their kids will study if the parents are to offer any financial support.  (I recognize that you are not saying this but determining a major on job prospects can be carried to an extreme.)

 

When I taught Calc courses at an engineering university, I regularly encountered kids who were in engineering not because it was their interest but because their parents had told them that is what they should do. Parents see kids constructing Lego contraptions and say "Johny will be a great engineer!" not realizing that Johny does not have the skill set necessary for Calc, Physics and Chemistry.  I have met kids who would have been better off in a two year engineering tech program focusing on CAD or even car mechanic school. 

 

As parents we do need to guide our kids since they lack experience and knowledge.  But the amount of influence that is exerted to the detriment of the kid can be problematic.  As others have noted, ultimately it is up to the student to take charge, own it, and figure out how to make it work.

[Laura Corin]

Of course there are no guarantees.  But there are statistics.  And I think it is incredibly disingenuous to say that a computer science major may not get a job, but someone with a degree in classics may end up the wealthiest private citizen in the UK, even if both are true. 

 

Does Calvin want to to be the wealthiest private citizen in the UK? Leaving that thought (and JK Rowling) aside....

 

Looking at us ordinary mortals: certainly in the UK, employers look just as much at your degree results and your university's reputation as they do at the subject you studied.  Leaving aside very specific technical degrees (computing, medicine, accounting) they want someone who has proved that they can think by doing well at a rigorous university.  These are the statistics for one of the good universities for which Calvin is holding a conditional place.  The university teaches a wide range of 'useful' and 'useless' subjects, so I think that these figures are representative of what a good university can do for career prospects.

 

L

GGardner, I believe I hear what you are saying but I am uncomfortable with it.  Maybe it is because I love education for education's sake--something I recognize is not a financial practicality for all.  I think perhaps my discomfort also stems from some families we have known who have dictated what their kids will study if the parents are to offer any financial support.  (I recognize that you are not saying this but determining a major on job prospects can be carried to an extreme.)

 

I don't know that I'm comfortable with it, either.  But, I think it is an uncomfortable truth, and if we don't share it with our kids, we are doing them a disservice.  I would suspect that all of us WTM'ey folks love education for the sake of education.  But, I think I've learned more in my post-college self-educating life than I did in those four quick years:  I can't make a career out of reading literature, but I can sure enjoy doing in it my free time.

 

I was just reading that for many years running, in the US, there have been five times as many classics PhDs granted each year as jobs openings for classics professors.  And worse, these students who have put ten years of their lives, and who knows how much debt into getting this degree haven't realized just how bad these numbers are.  They get told the usual platitudes "Do you you love", and "The cream always rises".  However, if they didn't get accepted into a tippy-top graduate school, there's basically no hope for a career in the field.

[Laura Corin]

I was just reading that for many years running, in the US, there have been five times as many classics PhDs granted each year as jobs openings for classics professors.  And worse, these students who have put ten years of their lives, and who knows how much debt into getting this degree haven't realized just how bad these numbers are.  They get told the usual platitudes "Do you you love", and "The cream always rises".  However, if they didn't get accepted into a tippy-top graduate school, there's basically no hope for a career in the field.

 

Here I agree with you.  By the time you get to the graduate school stage, there needs to be some thought about where you are going with the degree.  But the undergraduate years are, for me, the time for passionate high standards in the field that you love.

 

I have my secret prejudices about a few subjects, but they are usually not taught by universities with good reputations, so I can hope to steer the boys away from them....

 

L

[Gwen in VA]

Two types of students --

 

1) The kids who seemingly were born knowing that they have a calling. They announce over breakfast when they are 10 or 14 that they MUST follow a certain path.

 

2) The students who would be equally happy following any number of career paths. Those are the kids who are contemplating majoring in chemistry one day and Spanish the next. They are the kids who double-major because they have so many interests.

 

Two types of student and parent personalities --

 

1) The folks who focus on joy and satisfaction. Who needs to eat? If pursuing this path means they can't afford a house until they are 60, that's fine -- it's all about the journey anyway.

 

2) The folks who want more security -- a clear-cut path with more certain results.

 

My older two juggle competing interests and have had many zigs and zags in their career journey; it makes sense for them to choose a path that has decent career options. My younger two, on the other hand, both announced around age 14 that they were going to pursue a certain path and have not deviated from that path since. There was no "choice" involved -- the career path chose them! (My hubby also decided at age 14 the field he was going into -- and he is still in it!)

 

Thankfully we are all different and thus focus on different pros and cons when we select our paths! :D

Does Calvin want to to be the wealthiest private citizen in the UK? Leaving that thought (and JK Rowling) aside....

 

Looking at us ordinary mortals: certainly in the UK, employers look just as much at your degree results and your university's reputation as they do at the subject you studied.  Leaving aside very specific technical degrees (computing, medicine, accounting) they want someone who has proved that they can think by doing well at a rigorous university.  These are the statistics for one of the good universities for which Calvin is holding a conditional place.  The university teaches a wide range of 'useful' and 'useless' subjects, so I think that these figures are representative of what a good university can do for career prospects.

 

L

 

I think the situation in the UK is so different from the US in this regard that it isn't worth comparing.  Having almost all universities be what the US would call "public", having the NHS, the way in which Universities choose their students, all these things change the game so much on your side of the Atlantic.

[Denise in Florida]

I think the situation in the UK is so different from the US in this regard that it isn't worth comparing.  Having almost all universities be what the US would call "public", having the NHS, the way in which Universities choose their students, all these things change the game so much on your side of the Atlantic.

 

I am very interested in learning more about these differences. Does anyone have any concise resources that speak both to education theory and results for graduates? 

 

I understand UK does competency style exams, do they compare to the "high stakes' testing here?  Do their exams have a better reputation than the ones here?  On the high school level I know that the FCAT (Florida) is riddled with problems. 

 

I have learned some about the German system since oldest dd is attending Heidelberg University now. She had some difficulty with class placement when she started there, mostly because she had NO GPA. She explained that she homeschooled for High School and graduated from a college that did not do credit hours or grades or have a designated progression of coursework. HA  She said one advisor was nervous but let her select classes after she confirmed that she was there on a Fulbright.  :001_smile:  

[Laura Corin]

I am very interested in learning more about these differences. Does anyone have any concise resources that speak both to education theory and results for graduates? 

 

I understand UK does competency style exams, do they compare to the "high stakes' testing here?  Do their exams have a better reputation than the ones here?  On the high school level I know that the FCAT (Florida) is riddled with problems. 

 

There is no transcript in UK 'high' schools, so university entrance is based on A levels (or equivalents) which are mostly exams, with some coursework.  They are almost all essay based and pupils will take three or four at high level and two or three at a lower level.  It's a specialised education that leads to a specialised university experience - no general ed.  There are persistent rumours of dumbing down of A levels.  I think that part of the problem is that schools are getting much better at teaching to the test, so more and more people are getting top marks.  Oxford and Cambridge interview (rigorously - faculty posing hard questions) every credible applicant in order to sort the sheep from the goats.

 

Post-graduate degrees are still fairly unusual here, so many companies expect to take raw graduates (including classicists!) and train them on the job.  When Husband worked in the City of London (equivalent of Wall Street) he was surrounded by people with Oxford or Cambridge degrees in history or politics, not business or economics.  There's a tradition of bright people turning their hand to anything: this includes in government, where government ministers are elected politicians who may or may not have a specialist background in their portfolio.

 

My niece (early twenties) has a degree in English and now works for a charity managing their online presence - the key to the job is her background in vlogging, plus a good degree showing that she can work and analyse, rather than anything more academically specific.

 

L

[bettyandbob]

 

Post-graduate degrees are still fairly unusual here, so many companies expect to take raw graduates (including classicists!) and train them on the job.  When Husband worked in the City of London (equivalent of Wall Street) he was surrounded by people with Oxford or Cambridge degrees in history or politics, not business or economics.  There's a tradition of bright people turning their hand to anything: this includes in government, where government ministers are elected politicians who may or may not have a specialist background in their portfolio.

 

 

There are many high paying companies here who specifically look for persons with liberal arts degrees from reputable universities and train them. I think a lot of people don't understand that. This is very common in Big Wall Street firms. My friend's ds is starting a job with a big Wall Street firm this month. He graduated with a degree in Classics. The Wall Street firms that interviewed at his school did not choose to interview business, finance or econ majors.

[Denise in Florida]

There is no transcript in UK 'high' schools, so university entrance is based on A levels (or equivalents) which are mostly exams, with some coursework.  They are almost all essay based and pupils will take three or four at high level and two or three at a lower level.  It's a specialised education that leads to a specialised university experience - no general ed.  There are persistent rumours of dumbing down of A levels.  I think that part of the problem is that schools are getting much better at teaching to the test, so more and more people are getting top marks.  Oxford and Cambridge interview (rigorously - faculty posing hard questions) every credible applicant in order to sort the sheep from the goats.

 

Post-graduate degrees are still fairly unusual here, so many companies expect to take raw graduates (including classicists!) and train them on the job.  When Husband worked in the City of London (equivalent of Wall Street) he was surrounded by people with Oxford or Cambridge degrees in history or politics, not business or economics.  There's a tradition of bright people turning their hand to anything: this includes in government, where government ministers are elected politicians who may or may not have a specialist background in their portfolio.

 

My niece (early twenties) has a degree in English and now works for a charity managing their online presence - the key to the job is her background in vlogging, plus a good degree showing that she can work and analyse, rather than anything more academically specific.

 

L

 

Thank you Laura.

The bolded sort of describes my career experience. I completed a general university degree, the company I worked for trained me in Contract Management, I don't believe any of my co-workers had "management" degrees.

I am very interested in learning more about these differences. Does anyone have any concise resources that speak both to education theory and results for graduates? 

 

I understand UK does competency style exams, do they compare to the "high stakes' testing here?  Do their exams have a better reputation than the ones here?  On the high school level I know that the FCAT (Florida) is riddled with problems. 

 

 

Laura would know better than I, for all of my knowledge of the UK education system stems from Harry Potter, but these are the things I had in mind;

 

• Essentially all universities are publicly funded, and much less expensive than US private schools, although this has been changing a bit in recent years.  Isn't tuition roughly the same at all UK universities?  Many people in the US encourage students not to go the most prestigious, "best fit" University, but to one of the least expensive.  I get the feeling that choosing a school mostly based on tuition is less common in the UK.
• Admissions to UK universities are based on many factors, but the scores you get  (and the exams you choose to take) on national subject exams play a huge role.  These are nothing like the FCAT, if anything, they are like the AP exams on steroids, multiple day and mostly essay.  In this regard, the FCAT is not "high stakes" at all, at least for the student, as it is pass-fail, and designed for the overwhelming majority of students to pass.
• Again, my impression is that because of the two things above, UK Universities are much more stratified than US ones.  That is, for any given discipline, there are universities which are clearly the top tier for that field, clearly the next tier, etc. US big state Universities can have a very wide range of student aptitudes within any given department, because some students have chosen mainly for cost.
• Because of the above, some of the best Universities, like Oxford and Cambridge, are filled with superstar students in every department.  Historically, UK businesses have been delighted to hire graduates from these top tier Universities, regardless of major.  So, if you can get into one of these top tier Universities, your major doesn't impact your career as much. Perhaps this is true in the US to a lesser extent, and (say) a classics major at an Ivy doesn't have the hiring stigma that the same student at her big state U would have?

There are many high paying companies here who specifically look for persons with liberal arts degrees from reputable universities and train them. My friend's ds is starting a job with a big Wall Street firm this month. He graduated with a degree in Classics.

 

Can you put a finer point on "reputable"?-- I can understand if you aren't willing to name this particular school, but is it Private?  Public?  Expensive? Difficult to get into?

[Laura Corin]

 

 

• Essentially all universities are publicly funded, and much less expensive than US private schools, although this has been changing a bit in recent years.  Isn't tuition roughly the same at all UK universities?  Many people in the US encourage students not to go the most prestigious, "best fit" University, but to one of the least expensive.  I get the feeling that choosing a school mostly based on tuition is less common in the UK.
• Admissions to UK universities are based on many factors, but the scores you get  (and the exams you choose to take) on national subject exams play a huge role.  These are nothing like the FCAT, if anything, they are like the AP exams on steroids, multiple day and mostly essay.  In this regard, the FCAT is not "high stakes" at all, at least for the student, as it is pass-fail, and designed for the overwhelming majority of students to pass.
• Again, my impression is that because of the two things above, UK Universities are much more stratified than US ones.  That is, for any given discipline, there are universities which are clearly the top tier for that field, clearly the next tier, etc. US big state Universities can have a very wide range of student aptitudes within any given department, because some students have chosen mainly for cost.
• Because of the above, some of the best Universities, like Oxford and Cambridge, are filled with superstar students in every department.  Historically, UK businesses have been delighted to hire graduates from these top tier Universities, regardless of major.  So, if you can get into one of these top tier Universities, your major doesn't impact your career as much. Perhaps this is true in the US to a lesser extent, and (say) a classics major at an Ivy doesn't have the hiring stigma that the same student at her big state U would have?

 

 

That's a good summary.  The annual fees in England/Wales are between £3,000 and £9,000 (USD 4,500 to 13,500) - all the good ones charge 9K, because that shows they are good ones!  There are student loans for everyone, which are paid back through the tax system once your income reaches a threshold.  If the loan is not paid back in 35 years, it is cancelled.  It's free to go to Scottish universities if you are resident in Scotland, so many Scots do stay nearer to home, whereas English/Welsh people tend to go to the best university that will have them.

 

The best universities are a self-selecting group called The Russell Group.  Individual universities have areas of excellence (and some are really specialist, like The School of Oriental and African Studies, or The London School of Economics) but the reputation of the overall institution is key in setting up a future career.

 

Entry to university is based almost entirely on exams.  In fact, the better the university, the less they care about extra-curriculars, etc.  I used to have in my siggy a quote from the head of admissions at Oxford, who said that they didn't care what else you did in your life - entrance was solely an academic issue.  They 'didn't want second-rate historians who happened to play the violin'.

 

There's not a tradition at British universities of using TAs.  All classes are taken by full faculty.  This does mean that overall contact hours are fewer, but perhaps the quality is more even in those hours.

 

It's true that having the imprimatur of one of the best universities means a lot for your future career: they are extremely hard to get into (Calvin had multiple rigorous interviews with faculty when he applied to Oxford this year) so the names are well respected.

 

L

[bettyandbob]

Can you put a finer point on "reputable"?-- I can understand if you aren't willing to name this particular school, but is it Private?  Public?  Expensive? Difficult to get into?

 

Emory, so private.

 

However, I went to William and Mary (a difficult to get in state university) I recall lots and lots of employers coming on campus to interview specifying "liberal arts resumes only." I remember being surprised--it was not something I had researched because my degree was in Chemistry. That was back when I was smug about studying science and wondered why would anyone want an English major, but found apparently lots of people did.

 

ETA If you are concerned and want your dc to analyze option before embarking on a study path (and they should) make a visit to the college career center part of your college decision making process. What kinds of recruiters come to the school, how many recruiters look for these types of majors. Ask lots of questions about the outcomes the school has with getting students into jobs as well as grad school. Ask about connections the school has for internships. They may be able to give you a good idea of how a student in a liberal arts field should tailor outside of class time, summers, etc. to position themselves for employment.

[Jane in NC]

I don't know that I'm comfortable with it, either.  But, I think it is an uncomfortable truth, and if we don't share it with our kids, we are doing them a disservice.  I would suspect that all of us WTM'ey folks love education for the sake of education.  But, I think I've learned more in my post-college self-educating life than I did in those four quick years:  I can't make a career out of reading literature, but I can sure enjoy doing in it my free time.

 

I was just reading that for many years running, in the US, there have been five times as many classics PhDs granted each year as jobs openings for classics professors.  And worse, these students who have put ten years of their lives, and who knows how much debt into getting this degree haven't realized just how bad these numbers are.  They get told the usual platitudes "Do you you love", and "The cream always rises".  However, if they didn't get accepted into a tippy-top graduate school, there's basically no hope for a career in the field.

 

But what is the uncomfortable truth that you are sharing?  That a discipline has had a high unemployment rate in recent times?  I presume that you are having these discussions with your fifteen, sixteen year olds.  How do you extrapolate past data to be relevant for their future? 

 

Let me give you an example.  Here are some statistics on unemployment among various majors from the Wall Street Journal.  Note that the numbers are from the 2010 census when the country was in recession.  If you are talking to your 10th or 11th grader about college planning using these numbers, you are projecting employment figures for 2020. Do these numbers maintain their relevance?  I don't know the answer to this question but I am not convinced that the "truth" is found in any projections I may make, only in the historical data itself.

 

So let's be flies on the wall during your dinner conversation.  Are these the kind of statistics you are using when discussing employment possibilities with your high schoolers? How do you account for emerging technologies or the off shoring of jobs?

 

Regarding other uncomfortable truths:  I have met parents who were not upfront with their kids on the level of support that they would be offering for post-secondary education.  It seems that part of the discussion that we should be having with our kids includes what parents can afford and determining the level of debt a student is willing to accept in the process of earning a degree.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I have a bit of an update. Nothing is official yet but #1 son has decided against the electrician apprenticeship and for mechanical engineering. Preliminary research shows a strong likelihood of being able to pursue this, nearly for free (because of our income level and his test scores), at our local university. Mechanical engineering would be a perfect fit for him. He's very excited, and FINALLY doing the research and prep on his own which tells me he's serious. Hallelujah.

He wants a secular degree and career before going into ministry (this has been his plan for a looooooong time, and the plan he always returns to). He wants to love all of the stages he's got planned, and we all think he would really enjoy mechanical engineering.

Four influencing factors:

1. Roadblock: He's overqualified for the apprenticeship. They won't recognize his homeschool diploma and insist on a GED; and they want him to go to CC for an accredited Algebra (!) credit even though he's an A student in Calculus and his SAT score placed him in the 90th percentile for math. He's not eligible for the GED because he will have a proper diploma in our state, nor does he want GED in lieu of diploma, and he is not wiling to spend the time and money to sit through an introductory algebra course at CC.

2. Hearing the Voice of Experience: DH, who is a journeyman electrician (graduated from the apprenticeship program 15 years ago), explained that if he is capable of getting that degree AND able to go to college affordably, he will have many more open doors after that. DH has been limited in career options during hard times, and #1 son was able to understand what his Dad was telling him because he's heard all about it as he has been growing up.

3. Research: He learned more about mechanical engineering. He's always liked to invent and create, and he enjoys chemistry and physics. Even the lab, teamwork, research and presentation aspects of engineering will be within his wheelhouse, I think. It's a good fit. He also enjoyed visiting the engineering school at the university.

4. Location: The university where he would go is within easy driving distance. He didn't want to leave home quite yet. Also, we live in an area where mech. engineering jobs are usually available and networking is straightforward. Internships would be local.

Of course I'm not telling anybody IRL until he's actually accepted, enrolled, and parked in his seat on the first day of class. I no longer believe anything young people tell me about their college and career plans until I see it. LOL But I am very happy that he feels he has a plan.

Let me give you an example.  Here are some statistics on unemployment among various majors from the Wall Street Journal.  

 

Frankly, I don't believe the data in this chart.  It doesn't pass the sniff test.  Astronomy has a 0.0% unemployment rate? Maybe some of these numbers are not statistically significant. History majors have 6%, but US History majors have 15% unemployment rate?  That just doesn't seem right.  Moreover, it doesn't speak to whether these jobs are relevant to their major.

 

I could equally point you to this Forbes article, which says "“Today’s best advice, then, is that high school students who can go on to college should do so— with one caveat. They should do their homework before picking a major because, when it comes to employment prospects and compensation, not all college degrees are created equal.â€

[Jane in NC]

Frankly, I don't believe the data in this chart.  It doesn't pass the sniff test.  Astronomy has a 0.0% unemployment rate? Maybe some of these numbers are not statistically significant. History majors have 6%, but US History majors have 15% unemployment rate?  That just doesn't seem right.  Moreover, it doesn't speak to whether these jobs are relevant to their major.

 

I could equally point you to this Forbes article, which says "“Today’s best advice, then, is that high school students who can go on to college should do so— with one caveat. They should do their homework before picking a major because, when it comes to employment prospects and compensation, not all college degrees are created equal.â€

 

Apparently both the WSJ article and the Forbes one are using studies from Georgetown University. For what it's worth...

 

 

 

 

[Penguin]

:hurray: :hurray: :hurray:

I just love this thread so much.  Both of my olders are pursuing fields that are difficult to enter.  But I figure somebody will make it, why not them?

 

In my world, the pendulum seems to swing with the economy.  When I graduated from high school, the economy was bad.  I was encouraged to go into engineering because I was a girl who was good at math, and there would surely be a job at the end of the education. This was a long time ago - girls in engineering were still unusual.  But I didn't love tinkering with stuff or designing solutions, and I really should have majored in something else.  I hurried up an got an MBA so I could get out of engineering.

 

Then, as the mom of young children, I watched my some of my friends' kids graduate from high school in a boom economy.  Those kids were encouraged to follow their passions.

 

After the financial crisis, the talk seemed to be about a well defined job at the end of the degree:  engineering, nursing, accounting.

 

 

I love so many of the answers upthread!! It has been great reading :)

 

 

 

 

[elegantlion]

The Bureau of Labor Statistics has an guide to many occupations. Interesting to read through.  http://www.bls.gov/ooh/home.htm

[Library Momma]

I think that for most careers out there you can start with any degree and make it work for you.  I know history majors that work in computers and music majors that went on to med school.  They needed to have an undergraduate degree, but the specifics were not necessarily important, having a degree though was and is mandatory.

 

However, there are fields out there where having a degree is irrelevant.  No one becomes a professional athlete because of a specific degree they have.  They may have had opportunities or made contacts while getting the degree, but the degree itself is not necessary.  I think theatre is the same way.  I worked in professional theatre for 7 years.  No one was ever cast in a Broadway production because of their degree or even needed a degree to get the job.  The contacts they made while at school or skills they learned were far more important.

[Hoggirl]

To say that it's either passion or pragmatism would be a false dichotomy. They aren't necessarily mutually exclusive (depending on what one's passion is), and even if they are, it doesn't have to be an either or proposition. Not that people on this thread are saying that necessarily. Double majors/double degrees can be options as well as pursuing one or the other to a lesser extent. Certificates programs may be useful as well.

 

I think I was very fortunate to have attended a liberal arts college that had (and still has) an accounting program. I had a pretty significant number of core courses that were required as well as six economics courses (my degree title is actually "Economics and Business with an Emphasis in Accounting"). So, the accounting part was actually an add-on that required more. It helped, in terms of getting all the courses in, that we were on trimesters. I will say that going abroad would have not been very workable for my degree plan. Even when the state added a 5th-year requirement to sit for the CPA exam, my alma mater added a 5th year (Masters) program for accounting. Its the only Masters degree they offer.

[flyingiguana]

I think that for most careers out there you can start with any degree and make it work for you.  I know history majors that work in computers and music majors that went on to med school.  They needed to have an undergraduate degree, but the specifics were not necessarily important, having a degree though was and is mandatory.

 

So true -- I know music majors who are computer science people, art majors who ended up in physical therapy, and English majors who are doctors.

 

I also know a number of people with degrees in all sorts of things who are now in construction.  They didn't need the degree for their job, but they seem to appreciate having gone to college all the same.