Cantor who sings flat--WWYD?

[PrairieSong]

We used to have a choir at our rather small parish. It was all volunteer, and for the most part, everyone could sing and read music, and were fairly good sight readers. Then someone joined the choir...I'll call her Alice...who consistently sings flat and nasally. Her voice grates on me, and I've heard many comments from others (not just choir members). It's easy to hear her, even in a group, because not only is she flat, but she is LOUD, too.

 

We don't have a choir anymore except on special feasts like Easter and Christmas. Now we have a cantor (song leader) with an accompanist. So now Alice is on the cantor list. She is a good person who volunteers her time for other ministries at church. I know she loves to sing and wants to help, but honestly, she is one of the worst cantors I've ever heard. It almost seems cruel to let her do it, when she can't tell if she is even on pitch. It's like she makes a fool of herself every time, but she is oblivious. The choir director has tried to make subtle suggestions..."Someone is a little flat...make sure you have enough breath support" but he won't say anything directly to her.

 

I had the thought of writing her anonymously, but I couldn't do it. I just couldn't. It would hurt her feelings so badly, and she would wonder why they had let her lead songs for so long, and then she would be humiliated, I think.

 

WWYD in this situation? I'm not in charge but I could make suggestions to the choir director. Huge sigh. I never ever think anyone should remain silent in church (unless they choose to) when we are singing praise to God...no matter how off key they are. I just don't think those people should be leading the songs.

[TXBeth]

I don't understand why the choir director wouldn't speak to her directly. When I was in choir, the director would constantly say things like "Alice, you went flat there in measure 10," "sopranos, you cut off too early; that is a half note," "Jack, it's a B natural there - pull it up a half step." No one took it personally or got embarrassed. But if "Alice" were constantly getting corrected, she might eventually get the idea that there is a problem with her pitch. Then she can choose to either step out of choir or do some intensive ear training.

[PrairieSong]

I don't understand why the choir director wouldn't speak to her directly. When I was in choir, the director would constantly say things like "Alice, you went flat there in measure 10," "sopranos, you cut off too early; that is a half note," "Jack, it's a B natural there - pull it up a half step." No one took it personally or got embarrassed. But if "Alice" were constantly getting corrected, she might eventually get the idea that there is a problem with her pitch. Then she can choose to either step out of choir or do some intensive ear training.

Our choir director says stuff like that, too, but as I said above we only have a choir now for special holy days. I'm guessing he didn't want to constantly be singling her out. If he mentioned it every time she was flat, well, he'd be saying it constantly.

 

I don't know. Maybe there isn't a good answer. Maybe the only thing that could be done is for someone to just talk to her.

[Catwoman]

I wouldn't say anything because I wouldn't want to hurt her feelings.

 

It's the choir director's responsibility to handle this, not yours or anyone else's.

 

But really, if the woman is very nice and helpful, why would anyone begrudge her the joy of singing with the choir a few times a year? :confused:

[Gil]

Can you write a(n anonymous) letter to the director and ask him to step up to the plate and talk to/coach Alice?

[gardenmom5]

we had a baritone for years who was off-key and consistently clashed with everyone else.  sometimes juggling position and who sings what can help to 'hide' glaring sounds.

 

we have always had a volunteer choir and those who are there want to participate.  we are singing for God, and I came to appreciate this man.  he was very enthusiastic and was just a good "salt of the earth" man. (even if singing was not one of his talents . . . .)  I actually missed him when he stopped singing a couple years ago because *he* felt he couldn't sing anymore (he's elderly - but I've known him 30 years)

[PrairieSong]

I wouldn't say anything because I wouldn't want to hurt her feelings.

 

It's the choir director's responsibility to handle this, not yours or anyone else's.

 

But really, if the woman is very nice and helpful, why would anyone begrudge her the joy of singing with the choir a few times a year? :confused:

I know, I know. She is a nice person. But now we have choir for mainly only Christmas, Holy Week, and Easter. The rest of the time it's individual cantors, and she is on the cantor schedule. I guess I am sort of torn because on the one hand, she wants to help, but on the other hand, she can't sing and it's very distracting. It would be like having someone with a bad stuttering problem lector (read the Scripture readings).

[lavender's green]

In high school band I took up a new instrument because the band needed someone on it.  I wasn't very good, and only a few weeks into it, the director said, in front of 150 people, that I sounded like a small child being abused.

 

Then a friend told me that my solo sounded like a toad.

 

I got better. ;)

 

When it comes to performance, people need to learn to not take things too personally (though I did at the time).  It's all about making the performance better, perfecting the art form.  Performers should know that, or at least attempt to accept it, even if it stings a little at the time.

 

And sometimes we just need to accept that we're not cut out to be performing musicians.  I'm pretty good with music, much better than average, IMO, but now I recognize that I have neither the ear nor the dedication to handle performances at the level they need to be at, without major stress to myself.  Of course that's not to say she can't improve.  I'm just saying that criticism is part of it.

[albeto.]

I'm coming at this from the outside, but perhaps you can try to look at it less as an auditory irritation, and more as a joyful noise made unto the lord (Psalm 98:4).

 

:)

[gardenmom5]

I'm coming at this from the outside, but perhaps you can try to look at it less as an auditory irritation, and more as a joyful noise made unto the lord (Psalm 98:4).

 

:)

 

:lol:

[Guest submarines]

I'm coming at this from the outside, but perhaps you can try to look at it less as an auditory irritation, and more as a joyful noise made unto the lord (Psalm 98:4).

 

:)

 

Oh, I love this!

[PrairieSong]

we had a baritone for years who was off-key and consistently clashed with everyone else. sometimes juggling position and who sings what can help to 'hide' glaring sounds.

 

we have always had a volunteer choir and those who are there want to participate. we are singing for God, and I came to appreciate this man. he was very enthusiastic and was just a good "salt of the earth" man. (even if singing was not one of his talents . . . .) I actually missed him when he stopped singing a couple years ago because *he* felt he couldn't sing anymore (he's elderly - but I've known him 30 years)

That's a sweet story. We used to have two elderly ladies who sang in our choir. I'm not even sure if they were off key or not because they both sang so softly you couldn't hear them when the choir was singing. Nobody minded that they weren't strong singers. We loved them. Eventually they dropped out, and now they have both passed away.

[Joker]

We have several cantors in our parish who are not good singers and I think I enjoy them the most because I wouldn't have the guts to do what they are doing. I get the impression those cantors know they are not good but they are doing it because they feel led to do so and I would never comment negatively. It's actually been refreshing to be in a church where not everyone that sings needs to be good/perfect at what they are doing. I felt distracted when we first started attending but I felt that was my fault and not theirs and now I just feel and enjoy.

[PrairieSong]

I'm coming at this from the outside, but perhaps you can try to look at it less as an auditory irritation, and more as a joyful noise made unto the lord (Psalm 98:4).

 

:)

Yes, I've thought of that. But...it is very hard for me to not find her voice grating. It just is. As I said, I've heard people (only a few) who are off key, and I would never think that they should be quiet in church, but they aren't leading the songs. Maybe I need an attitude adjustment. I don't know. I honestly do not have ill will toward this woman. It's her singing voice that is bothersome. It's like playing a piano or guitar that is out of tune. I just can't do it.

[PrairieSong]

We have several cantors in our parish who are not good singers and I think I enjoy them the most because I wouldn't have the guts to do what they are doing. I get the impression those cantors know they are not good but they are doing it because they feel led to do so and I would never comment negatively. It's actually been refreshing to be in a church where not everyone that sings needs to be good/perfect at what they are doing. I felt distracted when we first started attending but I felt that was my fault and not theirs and now I just feel and enjoy.

How did you get to a place where you enjoyed it? I have turned this over and over in my head (not your comment, but the situation in my parish) and I don't know what to do, or how. Most of the cantors in our parish are fairly good singers...not opera divas...but can sing on pitch.

[Gil]

How did you get to a place where you enjoyed it? I have turned this over and over in my head (not your comment, but the situation in my parish) and I don't know what to do, or how. Most of the cantors in our parish are fairly good singers...not opera divas...but can sing on pitch.

I empathize. My kids can't sing, but it hasn't stopped them, hasn't even slowed them down. Can you speak directly to some one who is in charge? (I'm not a Christian, not familiar with church choir/cantor or anything so forgive me if this is so stupid that its 'stoopid') You say she is now on the cantor, but who makes the cantor? Who is in charge of coordinating these things.

 

I say write in to complain or see them face to face and let them know.

[PrairieSong]

I empathize. My kids can't sing, but it hasn't stopped them, hasn't even slowed them down. Can you speak directly to some one who is in charge? (I'm not a Christian, not familiar with church choir/cantor or anything so forgive me if this is so stupid that its 'stoopid') You say she is now on the cantor, but who makes the cantor? Who is in charge of coordinating these things.

 

I say write in to complain or see them face to face and let them know.

The choir director makes the schedule. He is aware of the problem. I've heard him mention it, not when she is around though. It's very touchy. I think he just can't bring himself to tell her, "You sing flat." He's made some comments when we practice together, but she's one of those people who would need it spelled out for her. She doesn't pick up on nuances.

 

And good for your kids for singing because they like it! You know what I think? I think many people could sing better than they do but they just have never learned to use their voices. Sure, there's a wide range of natural talent but I think for a lot of people, it hasn't been developed. The same with artistic ability. People who say they can't draw, perhaps could with some training.

[Joker]

 

And good for your kids for singing because they like it! You know what I think? I think many people could sing better than they do but they just have never learned to use their voices. Sure, there's a wide range of natural talent but I think for a lot of people, it hasn't been developed. The same with artistic ability. People who say they can't draw, perhaps could with some training.

 

Some really want to sing better but cannot. My oldest took voice lessons and was dropped. Her instructors told me there was nothing they could do. I'm not upset about it and I hope if she wants to sing in church someday that someone won't tell her she shouldn't.

 

In regards to your earlier question, I became okay with it by changing the focus from me to God. I didn't like the singing and wasn't focusing but that's honestly not the cantors problem. I was focusing on the wrong thing. I now focus on what's being sang/said and its meaning and I am much happier.

[poppy]

I think off key singing is a church tradition 'enjoyed' by families for many many generations . And many to come. What do you do about it? Let your mind wander while she sings. Try to keep a pleasant look on your face when she's singing. Have a little laugh about it at home afterwards.

[PrairieSong]

Some really want to sing better but cannot. My oldest took voice lessons and was dropped. Her instructors told me there was nothing they could do. I'm not upset about it and I hope if she wants to sing in church someday that someone won't tell her she shouldn't.

 

In regards to your earlier question, I became okay with it by changing the focus from me to God. I didn't like the singing and wasn't focusing but that's honestly not the cantors problem. I was focusing on the wrong thing. I now focus on what's being sang/said and its meaning and I am much happier.

I try to focus on the words, too, I really do. They are Scripture. But so far, I haven't learned how to not hear the singing...or not focus on it as much. It's loud...it's miked. Oh well. I will try. That's all I can do. I probably sound really snooty in this thread, but I don't mean to. I'm not the world's greatest singer and I know that. I try to sing on pitch and give it my best shot. I will pray about the rest.

[PrairieSong]

In high school band I took up a new instrument because the band needed someone on it. I wasn't very good, and only a few weeks into it, the director said, in front of 150 people, that I sounded like a small child being abused.

 

Then a friend told me that my solo sounded like a toad.

 

I got better. ;)

 

When it comes to performance, people need to learn to not take things too personally (though I did at the time). It's all about making the performance better, perfecting the art form. Performers should know that, or at least attempt to accept it, even if it stings a little at the time.

 

And sometimes we just need to accept that we're not cut out to be performing musicians. I'm pretty good with music, much better than average, IMO, but now I recognize that I have neither the ear nor the dedication to handle performances at the level they need to be at, without major stress to myself. Of course that's not to say she can't improve. I'm just saying that criticism is part of it.

Yes. Constructive criticism is so helpful! We need feedback from others to improve. I do wonder if this lady could improve her singing with some help. Who knows?

[poppy]

The best way to have a bad cantor sing less often is to step up and offer to cantor yourself.

 

My father is a long time cantor at his church, one of perhaps 7-8 who rotate services between them.  Since there are 3 services a week, he is up in front at least twice a month. Usually more.  If there were more cantors, each of those cantors would be 'on the spot' less often, and I think just about all of them would be thrilled to have someone else join the list.

 

I vividly remember a terrible and very LOUD singer from the choir who sang during my childhood.  She was there for many, many years.  It can be a real issue. Especially if it's discouraging to the rest of the choir who really try to  do well. And it's hard to recruit people to the choir if a really bad singer dominates. Just saying, OP, I do think it's a legitimate issue. I don't think you're really snooty.  I just think it's likely there's not much you can do about it, so I'm trying to offer alternatives!

[rmtzc2009]

It is lovely that she volunteers despite her voice quality.   You mention she's on the list to sing, however it doesn't sound like she sings ALL the time.   I am not sure how well you know her but if you don't know her well I might suggest trying to get to know her.  Being able to see beyond her voice to the God loving women she is may make her voice more tolerable to you.  When I find something about someone annoying or difficult for me to tolerate I try to remind myself that I am certain I too have things I do that others find annoying.  I'm sure you know that, but it's what helps me to remind myself to not focus on such things.

[chiguirre]

Maybe you could suggest she switch to being a lector?

[theYoungerMrsWarde]

I went to a church where a formerly semi-professional opera singer was leading services every other week. He preformed the song when he was supposed to be leading. It was VERY difficult to follow, be engaged in what was supposed to be worship. So I completely understand how distracting and taking away from what worship is SUPPOSED to be is like. (He openly admitted that he preformed rather than led and refused to do it any other way.) Eventually I volunteered to be put in the rotation, so it was less of him, and eventually a heart condition ended his performances.

[CyndiLJ]

So I have a different take on this one.  Our pastor has ALWAYS emphasized that worship is NOT a performance.  

 

NOT a performance.

 

It is our way, collectively, of worshiping our God and of offering our voices up in praise.  If we stink as singers, so what?

 

And I say this having been in a very good small church choir for 9 years, and also being good enough of a singer to be in Sweet Adelines.  I would never concern myself over someone in worship, leading singing or otherwise performing with the choir, who couldn't sing very well. It's not about that at all.

 

I also have been blessed to have this pastor invite our then 12 year old son, who has serious speech difficulties due to bi-lateral cleft lip and palate, to be the liturgist 3-4 times a year. It was a delight to him, and actually brought tears to the eyes of other parishioners who saw his courage and grace doing something that was very difficult for him.  Not a single person ever complained, and many, many were proud of him and quite vocal about allowing him to remain as a liturgist.

 

Again, she reminded me that corporate worship is not a performance, and the minute that takes precedence over our desire to serve and worship with our hearts and souls, we are failing as a church.

[TechWife]

I know, I know. She is a nice person. But now we have choir for mainly only Christmas, Holy Week, and Easter. The rest of the time it's individual cantors, and she is on the cantor schedule. I guess I am sort of torn because on the one hand, she wants to help, but on the other hand, she can't sing and it's very distracting. It would be like having someone with a bad stuttering problem lector (read the Scripture readings).

 

I don't understand why there would be a problem with either of occurrences. She is serving the Lord, not man. Likewise, a stuttering lector might only take a bit more time to read, but again, the lector would be serving the Lord. God is fully aware that people aren't perfect and so He hasn't required us to serve Him with perfect skill, but with a pure heart. 

[TechWife]

So I have a different take on this one.  Our pastor has ALWAYS emphasized that worship is NOT a performance.  

 

NOT a performance.

 

It is our way, collectively, of worshiping our God and of offering our voices up in praise.  If we stink as singers, so what?

 

And I say this having been in a very good small church choir for 9 years, and also being good enough of a singer to be in Sweet Adelines.  I would never concern myself over someone in worship, leading singing or otherwise performing with the choir, who couldn't sing very well. It's not about that at all.

 

I also have been blessed to have this pastor invite our then 12 year old son, who has serious speech difficulties due to bi-lateral cleft lip and palate, to be the liturgist 3-4 times a year. It was a delight to him, and actually brought tears to the eyes of other parishioners who saw his courage and grace doing something that was very difficult for him.  Not a single person ever complained, and many, many were proud of him and quite vocal about allowing him to remain as a liturgist.

 

Again, she reminded me that corporate worship is not a performance, and the minute that takes precedence over our desire to serve and worship with our hearts and souls, we are failing as a church.

 

Can I like this one million times? It's exactly as it should be! 

[gardenmom5]

So I have a different take on this one.  Our pastor has ALWAYS emphasized that worship is NOT a performance.  

 

NOT a performance.

 

It is our way, collectively, of worshiping our God and of offering our voices up in praise.  If we stink as singers, so what?

 

And I say this having been in a very good small church choir for 9 years, and also being good enough of a singer to be in Sweet Adelines.  I would never concern myself over someone in worship, leading singing or otherwise performing with the choir, who couldn't sing very well. It's not about that at all.

 

I also have been blessed to have this pastor invite our then 12 year old son, who has serious speech difficulties due to bi-lateral cleft lip and palate, to be the liturgist 3-4 times a year. It was a delight to him, and actually brought tears to the eyes of other parishioners who saw his courage and grace doing something that was very difficult for him.  Not a single person ever complained, and many, many were proud of him and quite vocal about allowing him to remain as a liturgist.

 

Again, she reminded me that corporate worship is not a performance, and the minute that takes precedence over our desire to serve and worship with our hearts and souls, we are failing as a church.

 

thank you for sharing,

in our former congregation, there is a young woman, the same age as one of my sons.  seriously mentally handicapped, some physical, and limited verbal skills. (very sweet spirit).  she was encouraged to sing as part of a trio.  really, the two other girls were there to support her.  there was not a dry eye in the place.

 

[Catwoman]

I try to focus on the words, too, I really do. They are Scripture. But so far, I haven't learned how to not hear the singing...or not focus on it as much. It's loud...it's miked. Oh well. I will try. That's all I can do. I probably sound really snooty in this thread, but I don't mean to. I'm not the world's greatest singer and I know that. I try to sing on pitch and give it my best shot. I will pray about the rest.

The thing is, you're making this all about you and your own preferences. Are you certain the other members of the congregation share your feelings about this woman and her singing?

 

I can understand getting the nails-on-the-chalkboard feeling when she sings, but I really think you should put her happiness in participating in the choir ahead of your own annoyance. It's not like she's singing several times every single Sunday. It's only a few times a year.

[albeto.]

Yes, I've thought of that. But...it is very hard for me to not find her voice grating. It just is. As I said, I've heard people (only a few) who are off key, and I would never think that they should be quiet in church, but they aren't leading the songs. Maybe I need an attitude adjustment. I don't know. I honestly do not have ill will toward this woman. It's her singing voice that is bothersome. It's like playing a piano or guitar that is out of tune. I just can't do it.

 

Why not? Are there no alternative? You can stop going to church. You can change churches. You can complain until you're satisfied. I don't mean to sound flippant, but I'm having a difficult time understanding why the burden is on her to satisfy your expectations.

 

Maybe the attitude adjustment could start with identifying the virtues you respect the most, the values you hold most dear. Then decide how you want to best embody them. 

[Gil]

The choir director makes the schedule. He is aware of the problem. I've heard him mention it, not when she is around though. It's very touchy. I think he just can't bring himself to tell her, "You sing flat." He's made some comments when we practice together, but she's one of those people who would need it spelled out for her. She doesn't pick up on nuances...

If this is really bothering you then you should do something, but it is NOT your place to talk to Alice.

You need to spell it out to the choir director--either face to face, or in a letter--that there is grievance about Alice and offer some suggestions. Personally, I don't see the problem in someone singing (badly) in public a few times a year, but some posters think/agree that this is a legitimate concern in their community too so I take it to mean you are not just being 'snooty'.

I think that going to Alice (directly or indirectly) is the worst possible path to take and it isn't your place to go there anyway. I would rather endure flat singing than go to Alice in this situation. The director, on the other hand, is the director of a social group (even if it is religiously based) so it is HIS JOB to 'mention it' whatever awkward or touchy thing 'it' is if others have a complaint or problem. Especially since he's had the gall to mention it when Alice isn't around.

 

He is going to have to bring himself to address the matter kindly but head on or else he's not worth his weight in dead leaves. Thats the trouble with being the director/manager/leader, you actually have to direct/manage/lead and get your hands dirty in inter-personal affairs and you have to have the tact and the balls to, dare I say, engage in awkward or touchy situations to a persons face. Doing it behind her back just makes him tactless and gross. It is a blackmark against him as a leader, and if Alice is as bad and distracting as you say she is then he should be looking for helpful and constructive ways to assist the situation.

 

He doesn't have to send Alice packing but taking her out of the leading position, giving her simpler parts to sing--coaching her on those simpler parts. that sort of thing should be within his power.

[MomatHWTK]

So I have a different take on this one.  Our pastor has ALWAYS emphasized that worship is NOT a performance.  

 

NOT a performance.

 

It is our way, collectively, of worshiping our God and of offering our voices up in praise.  If we stink as singers, so what?

 

And I say this having been in a very good small church choir for 9 years, and also being good enough of a singer to be in Sweet Adelines.  I would never concern myself over someone in worship, leading singing or otherwise performing with the choir, who couldn't sing very well. It's not about that at all.

 

I also have been blessed to have this pastor invite our then 12 year old son, who has serious speech difficulties due to bi-lateral cleft lip and palate, to be the liturgist 3-4 times a year. It was a delight to him, and actually brought tears to the eyes of other parishioners who saw his courage and grace doing something that was very difficult for him.  Not a single person ever complained, and many, many were proud of him and quite vocal about allowing him to remain as a liturgist.

 

Again, she reminded me that corporate worship is not a performance, and the minute that takes precedence over our desire to serve and worship with our hearts and souls, we are failing as a church.

Well, a first, I wish I could like something more than once.  Those who are not perfect are just as welcome at the table of God as those who are.

 

Church isn't about being entertained.

[Hikin' Mama]

So I have a different take on this one. Our pastor has ALWAYS emphasized that worship is NOT a performance.

 

NOT a performance.

 

It is our way, collectively, of worshiping our God and of offering our voices up in praise. If we stink as singers, so what?

 

And I say this having been in a very good small church choir for 9 years, and also being good enough of a singer to be in Sweet Adelines. I would never concern myself over someone in worship, leading singing or otherwise performing with the choir, who couldn't sing very well. It's not about that at all.

 

I also have been blessed to have this pastor invite our then 12 year old son, who has serious speech difficulties due to bi-lateral cleft lip and palate, to be the liturgist 3-4 times a year. It was a delight to him, and actually brought tears to the eyes of other parishioners who saw his courage and grace doing something that was very difficult for him. Not a single person ever complained, and many, many were proud of him and quite vocal about allowing him to remain as a liturgist.

 

Again, she reminded me that corporate worship is not a performance, and the minute that takes precedence over our desire to serve and worship with our hearts and souls, we are failing as a church.

I so agree! I used to go to a church where congregation members would take turns reading the scripture passage. One of the most meaningful readings was by a man who clearly had a reading disability. Why was it so meaningful to me? I have a dyslexic daughter for whom reading is also quite difficult. I know how hard a person with a reading disability has to work just to be able to read at a low level.

 

OP, imho, this is your issue, not hers. God made her singing voice and, therefore, He likes to hear it sing praises to Him.

[PrairieSong]

Thank you to everyone who replied. I really, really appreciate all the responses and perspectives. I understand that worship is not about performing, and it's not NOT all about me or my preferences. And this is not just my take. I have heard comments from many other people about this certain person's singing. She doesn't just sing with the choir at Easter and Christmas. She leads the songs throughout the year.

 

I can see different sides to this issue. On the one hand, she is serving from the heart. She wants to help. I completely appreciate that. She helps in other areas at church. On the other hand, she doesn't sing very well, sometimes is all over the place, and is very hard to follow. The music is supposed to help us worship. The accompanists we have playing are all proficient. They are not necessarily professionals, and they might make a mistake here or there, but if they were really bad and constantly making mistakes, well, it would be pretty distracting and not helping people to sing.

 

Another concern I have is...what if she eventually catches on that she sings off key? What if she overhears someone's comment? Then she will be hurt and wonder why she was allowed to cantor, why nobody said anything. That would be awful.

 

No, it isn't my place to talk to her...not at all. I will be praying. If anything, I will talk to the choir director privately. But I may not even do that.

 

Thanks for listening. I feel bad to be distracted at church. I hate it. I don't want to be. I want to have the right attitude. I'll keep praying...about my own attitude, and about the situation, that whatever is the highest good for everyone...will take place, whether that means that Alice continues to cantor, or she finds another way to serve, or something else unexpected happens, maybe something I hadn't even thought of.

[Wilma]

I would try to assume that the God Himself was moving her heart to sing, and see where that got me. I'd very hesitant to inwardly criticize or dwell on someone for following God's prompting despite their own deficiency. (I'm not totally saying that's what's going down, just that it'd help me cope.)

 

I totally agree that you should never never ever say anything to the flat lady. Ever. And honestly, the choir guy should be more discreet or more direct, either way. He ought to say something or say nothing, not hint and speak privately about it. Someone unthread mentioned her switching to be a lector - how's your church set for lectors? Maybe if a few more people offered to cantor and some of the lectors quit...

[trulycrabby]

Our Cantor's voice is a bit grating and flat; however she is a wonderful person of true faith who tirelessly volunteers her time to perform an essential swrvice of the church. Rather than make her feel bad about her imperfect voice, I try to focus on the many good things she brings to our church.

[matrips]

Our priest once said something like this as he was encouraging the congregation to sing more and sing louder...if a God gave you a bad voice, what better place to use it than church :).

 

Cantors all volunteer their time and want to use their voice (good or not so good) to praise God. I'd find comfort in knowing God has made us all; she is one of Gods children and she is singing to him and for him. She probably finds great joy in singing and I wouldn't want to take that away.

[Danestress]

It makes me sad that you are hearing so many comments but no one has talked to her. It seems like the opposite of the way a Chriatian community should operate. You talk to her or you talk, perhaps, to the choir director, or maybe there is some other option - besides just bearing it.

 

I don't know what you should do. I would find it painful as well, and I don't blame you for thinking that maybe someone else should be doing this job. But I think the chance to handle this well has already been lost, because the griping to others within the congregation was probably the worst of available choices and that can't be undone. Even if she never knows about the ugliness that occurred, it does its damage.

[TechWife]

Thank you to everyone who replied. I really, really appreciate all the responses and perspectives. I understand that worship is not about performing, and it's not NOT all about me or my preferences. And this is not just my take. I have heard comments from many other people about this certain person's singing. She doesn't just sing with the choir at Easter and Christmas. She leads the songs throughout the year.

 

I can see different sides to this issue. On the one hand, she is serving from the heart. She wants to help. I completely appreciate that. She helps in other areas at church. On the other hand, she doesn't sing very well, sometimes is all over the place, and is very hard to follow. The music is supposed to help us worship. The accompanists we have playing are all proficient. They are not necessarily professionals, and they might make a mistake here or there, but if they were really bad and constantly making mistakes, well, it would be pretty distracting and not helping people to sing.

 

Another concern I have is...what if she eventually catches on that she sings off key? What if she overhears someone's comment? Then she will be hurt and wonder why she was allowed to cantor, why nobody said anything. That would be awful.

 

No, it isn't my place to talk to her...not at all. I will be praying. If anything, I will talk to the choir director privately. But I may not even do that.

 

Thanks for listening. I feel bad to be distracted at church. I hate it. I don't want to be. I want to have the right attitude. I'll keep praying...about my own attitude, and about the situation, that whatever is the highest good for everyone...will take place, whether that means that Alice continues to cantor, or she finds another way to serve, or something else unexpected happens, maybe something I hadn't even thought of.

 

 

I guess I just don't understand. How someone sings is not your responsibility. Determining what God has called someone else to do is not your responsibility. If you choose to talk to the choir director privately, it should be about how you are aware that he is talking about this woman and making comments about her, not about her or how she sings. The music ministry is his responsibility. 

 

I expect that this woman's identity isn't tied up in how she sings, so I wouldn't worry about how she would feel is she overhears a comment. Instead, perhaps you should address the problem of gossip within your community. If no one is gossiping about her, then she can't overhear any comments about it. 

 

I have some questions for you to consider:

Why do you go to worship?

Why are you so easily distracted in worship? In other words, how is it that one person can distract you from worshipping our Lord, who is holy and loves you more than you can imagine, where is your heart focused? 

Is God, perhaps, using this situation to bring the problem of gossip within your congregation to light? If so, what is your responsibility there?

Have you read Galatians 5 lately?  

[Guest submarines]

Thank you to everyone who replied. I really, really appreciate all the responses and perspectives. I understand that worship is not about performing, and it's not NOT all about me or my preferences. And this is not just my take. I have heard comments from many other people about this certain person's singing. She doesn't just sing with the choir at Easter and Christmas. She leads the songs throughout the year.

 

I can see different sides to this issue. On the one hand, she is serving from the heart. She wants to help. I completely appreciate that. She helps in other areas at church. On the other hand, she doesn't sing very well, sometimes is all over the place, and is very hard to follow. The music is supposed to help us worship. The accompanists we have playing are all proficient. They are not necessarily professionals, and they might make a mistake here or there, but if they were really bad and constantly making mistakes, well, it would be pretty distracting and not helping people to sing.

 

Another concern I have is...what if she eventually catches on that she sings off key? What if she overhears someone's comment? Then she will be hurt and wonder why she was allowed to cantor, why nobody said anything. That would be awful.

 

No, it isn't my place to talk to her...not at all. I will be praying. If anything, I will talk to the choir director privately. But I may not even do that.

 

Thanks for listening. I feel bad to be distracted at church. I hate it. I don't want to be. I want to have the right attitude. I'll keep praying...about my own attitude, and about the situation, that whatever is the highest good for everyone...will take place, whether that means that Alice continues to cantor, or she finds another way to serve, or something else unexpected happens, maybe something I hadn't even thought of.

 

I think a much bigger issue in your church is not a tone deaf cantor, but members gossiping about her.

 

I'm pretty sure Alice knows she sings off key. But it seems that the choir director made her believe that it didn't matter. What she probably doesn't know that he talks about her poor singing behind her back and that there are other people gossiping as well.

 

If you are truly concerned about Alice's feelings, it is not the potential embarrassment of her not being able to sing well that you should be concerned about.

 

Also, don't assume that everyone finds her singing as destructive. It takes a really bad singer for me not to be able to focus on the words. It is only those with the perfect pitch who suffer, but they suffer a lot as it is. ;)

 

ETA: I feel you *are* truly concerned about Alice your thoughts do come from kindeness, but I think you are misplacing the real issue here.

 

[Callie]

I think a much bigger issue in your church is not a tone deaf cantor, but members gossiping about her.

 

I'm pretty sure Alice knows she sings off key. But it seems that the choir director made her believe that it didn't matter. What she probably doesn't know that he talks about her poor singing behind her back and that there are other people gossiping as well.

 

If you are truly concerned about Alice's feelings, it is not the potential embarrassment of her not being able to sing well that you should be concerned about.

 

Also, don't assume that everyone finds her singing as destructive. It takes a really bad singer for me not to be able to focus on the words. It is only those with the perfect pitch who suffer, but they suffer a lot as it is. ;)

 

ETA: I feel you *are* truly concerned about Alice your thoughts do come from kindeness, but I think you are misplacing the real issue here.

 

*Like*

[Callie]

I guess I just don't understand. How someone sings is not your responsibility. Determining what God has called someone else to do is not your responsibility. If you choose to talk to the choir director privately, it should be about how you are aware that he is talking about this woman and making comments about her, not about her or how she sings. The music ministry is his responsibility. 

 

I expect that this woman's identity isn't tied up in how she sings, so I wouldn't worry about how she would feel is she overhears a comment. Instead, perhaps you should address the problem of gossip within your community. If no one is gossiping about her, then she can't overhear any comments about it. 

 

I have some questions for you to consider:

Why do you go to worship?

Why are you so easily distracted in worship? In other words, how is it that one person can distract you from worshipping our Lord, who is holy and loves you more than you can imagine, where is your heart focused? 

Is God, perhaps, using this situation to bring the problem of gossip within your congregation to light? If so, what is your responsibility there?

Have you read Galatians 5 lately?  

Agreeing.

[MysteryJen]

I know several parishes where the cantors (also quartets, choirs, etc) are paid. It doesn't have to be much, but it allows the music director to have the best people they can in those positions.

 

My parish does this and the music is uniformly good, even in the variety of styles that each mass has. 

 

Just a slightly different perspective...

[Lisbeth]

As someone with SPD that is part auditory, that would cause me a lot of difficulty.  My SPD kids (3 out of 4) would probably plug up their ears with their fingers and crouch down in their seats. 

 

I think the choir director is falling down on the job.  It is his job to say something. 

 

I do feel bad for Alice, though.  I could never carry a tune. 

On the other hand, I would never subject others to my singing, knowing that I am terrible at it.  In some ways if you know you are terrible at something, isn't it selfish to subject others to it?  There are so many areas in a Church someone can contribute.

[unsinkable]

As someone with SPD that is part auditory, that would cause me a lot of difficulty. My SPD kids (3 out of 4) would probably plug up their ears with their fingers and crouch down in their seats.

 

.

One of my sons would be the same way. certain noises and sounds cause him a lot of distress. He's a musician, too, so someone being flat would be very jarring to him.

[Word Nerd]

I don't think off-key singing is as easy to ignore or tune out as some are suggesting. If the sanctuary smelled like a sewer or a skunk, would you find it distracting even if you were trying to focus your attention elsewhere? If the air conditioning was broken and it was over 95 degrees inside, would you easily be able to ignore it? The attempts to shame the OP for being bothered by it are misguided. It's a sensory issue, not a spiritual one. That doesn't mean you shouldn't try to focus your attention on the worship or that it's impossible, but it isn't easy or indicative of some moral failing if you find it difficult.

[brehon]

Cantor consistently off key? I'd want to use the hook, honestly.

 

For me listening to someone, especially someone who is supposed to be leading the congregational responses (& other parts of the Mass - we chant the Kyrie, Sanctus, & Agnus all the time; sometimes the Gloria & Credo), sing/chant off-key is physically painful. Partly because I have sensory issues and partly because I have near-perfect pitch.

 

It's the director's responsibility to say something and if he's decided not to for whatever reason, well, I guess that's it. I do understand your feelings. It's not that the choir/cantor is a performance; it's that in a cantorial Mass, especially, poor singing/playing can really be a distraction *for certain people* from the Mass itself.

[brehon]

I know several parishes where the cantors (also quartets, choirs, etc) are paid. It doesn't have to be much, but it allows the music director to have the best people they can in those positions.

 

My parish does this and the music is uniformly good, even in the variety of styles that each mass has.

 

Just a slightly different perspective...

.

 

Yes. My parish does the same for most of the Masses. The cantors are professional singers (& trust me when I say they aren't paid a lot) & the choir(s) [both the choir I sing in & the Latin Mass choir] are volunteer.

[Dmmetler]

Can she lead unaccompanied? That won't change her vocal quality, and she'll still be flat compared to the written pitch, but at least she won't be flat relative to the accompaniment. I've taught some kids who couldn't match pitch to save their lives, but if they knew the song, would have the intervals consistent with whatever pitch they started on-even if it was about 3/4 of the way between B and Bb.