No more patience...am I teaching challenged?

[73349]

I just want to say (as a former professional grammar teacher and tutor) that if grammar is that hard for him, you can and probably should drop it for now. Pick it up in two years rather than making him hate it. There is no need for an eight-year-old to do grammar for that length of time. He may not be an abstract enough thinker, or he may have a focus issue. But a kid can start grammar from scratch in fifth grade and be completely fine.

 

If/when you do continue... do you have a magnetic whiteboard? If so, buy a strip of magnet tape from a craft store and attach words so that they can be moved around for diagramming, use different colored dry erase markers for labeling, etc., so he is not stuck with just paper and pencil.

[Tiramisu]

Hottater, I know you are suffering now, and I'm sorry for that. You've got some great advice here. I just wanted to remind you that hsing is really as much about us learning as our kids learning. When God very obviously called me to hs them to help put them on a better path to Him, He also called me to become closer to Him through hsing. It just took me much too long to realize it was about my sanctification as much as my kids'.

 

Everyday I pray, "Lead me not into temptation." And before starting hsing, I couldn't seriously consider doing it because I honestly thought it would be too much of a temptation to sin, in terms of becoming impatient and angry. But very clearly, through very obvious circumstances, God called me to this life anyway, and I've had to confront my weaknesses, especially my pride, each day with His help. After all these years (of eating humble pie), I hope I am a little better because of it.

 

Continue to be open to how God is working in your life, enabling you to understand yourself and your ds better. You are on the right path already. I believe no matter what weaknesses you discover about your son and yourself along the way, you will also find beautiful gifts and a wonderful appreciation for what you've been given.

[Hottater]

Self assessing, he doesn't have blatant dysgraphia with reversed letters or numbers or spacing letters - I take that back,maybe a little with the letters being spaced. But yea, it's like 5 minutes per word. Getting thoughts to paper. Normally, I could tell kids my dd or or my ds's age to write three letters at a time onto a piece of paper and flor ds it takes a one by one or two by two approach with distraction sometimes.

 

End of ordinary- Yes, I've done the all out sword thing.... I tried all of the curricula methods, classical, CM, unit study through Konos - kings and queens unit study was fun. My Boy shedding testosterone energy just didn't happen every day, maybe twice a week. (So, now I can understand that my requirements needed time restructuring... More time everyday to get the wiggles out. )I did this so that I could figure out what curricula and what would be the right method (I read Mary pride's guide) for my kids. It is the unit study/ high energy ones that work the best. I get tired of lesson planning though. The language arts/writing/reading/ was and is the hardest to figure out. I wonder if I did sequential spelling right. But definitely will change it up with drawing picture words for him, whatever curriculum.

 

Heather- is that more explicit? I just want to be on the right path. To execute stuff but not drop everything like I did last year. I got so burnt out by the end of spring last year , I totally ditched all the curriculum. I was impatient and for three months I just stopped everything. Couldn't handle much, and then we worked like crazy over the summer. Lol I still handed in our slim state portfolio review.

 

Tiramisu, yep I got that message too :)

 

Assessing myself - I am visual sequential maybe?

[Heathermomster]

Yes, that is more explicit. Prayerfully consider reading the books that everyone has mentioned...

[Hottater]

I was just talking with my friend who has 2 dyslexic kids-- It doesn't seem like he has it, because of the reading- it's not as big of an issue anymore. She knows my kid and thinks many of his issues are "normal" problems. Maybe he's a "normal" VSL? The price tag and complications for np testing seem out of our budget. 

 

Reading -I had an IEP as a toddler for my son, cause he didn't talk much until 14-18 months. Then we had problems with reading  -- using OPGTTR, he would try this whole word thing rather than break it down, he thought I was dumbing it down by my having him put his finger on each word. I had to force him to read each individual word and put my finger down for him to read. My brother was dyslexic, and I know that dyslexics have problems with floating letters, so I made him follow with the ruler or index card from the very start regardless if ds  had dyslexia not. Fluency didn't click until the end of last year. Unlike my daughter, she is doing really well with the abeka basal readers and OPGTTR.  Something about my friend mentioning the two review and one new could have been my user error. I wasn't teaching him with enough review. Reading at a 3rd grade level now though with fluency. So, I am not sure that dyslexia is a problem. Just some syllable work which is normal for 3rd graders I think? 

 

Writing and spelling are the bigger culprits. Not handwriting. His cursive is beautiful. His print isn't as good, but can be and takes awhile per word - maybe motor dysgraphia?  Trying to figure the best approach still. When taking dysgraphia checklists like  http://www.ncld.org/types-learning-disabilities/dysgraphia/common-warning-signs-of-dysgraphia-in-children-in-grades-3-8 Thoughts to paper issues still is huge.  My friend said that I should just focus on writing down his summarizations of a chapter or what ever we read and have him copy what I wrote --instead of working on his being able to dictate his own writing into 3 - 5 sentence paragraphs for now.  I did help him with every sentence and ask questions to help him form his sentences at times depending on the chapter.WWE did that but he hated it.  Friend said that switching spelling too much may be the issue, but he's in the 2nd grade r&S we'll see, it has some pictures. He'll be done by the end of summer, start 3rd grade R&S next year. And I will have him put the spelling into art form.  Hopefully it is ok. If we switch to LLATL (the portions of writing and spelling are smaller chunks) , maybe use it to reinforce all in shorter segments, maybe keep the the R&S spelling or drop it depending on time. I just don't know the scope and sequence well enough of both writing and spelling subjects to implement it well. 

 

 Math facts memorization with xtramath.com for +/- during 1st grade was aweful for two months straight-- addition math facts didn't click until I bought MUS and used their manipulatives. Then I reinforced with Singapore and schoolzone or 1$ books. Multiplication.com is what I used for memorizing visual multiplication facts by association. It works sometimes, he needs to be reminded which story is being told. But he loves the colorful math pictures of singapore. Hates the black and white of MUS and the word problems but loves the manipulatives. Gonna stick with Singapore for now, using 2b and will try to get through 3A and 3B. Since 2B and 3A are considered 3rd grade, he would be 1/2 year behind. 

 

Considering the mislabeled child, and Christlike Parenting. 

 

[Pen]

I was just talking with my friend who has 2 dyslexic kids-- It doesn't seem like he has it, because of the reading- it's not as big of an issue anymore. She knows my kid and thinks many of his issues are "normal" problems. Maybe he's a "normal" VSL? The price tag and complications for np testing seem out of our budget. 

 

Reading -I had an IEP as a toddler for my son, cause he didn't talk much until 14-18 months. Then we had problems with reading  -- using OPGTTR, he would try this whole word thing rather than break it down, he thought I was dumbing it down by my having him put his finger on each word. I had to force him to read each individual word and put my finger down for him to read. My brother was dyslexic, and I know that dyslexics have problems with floating letters, so I made him follow with the ruler or index card from the very start regardless if ds  had dyslexia not. Fluency didn't click until the end of last year. Unlike my daughter, she is doing really well with the abeka basal readers and OPGTTR.  Something about my friend mentioning the two review and one new could have been my user error. I wasn't teaching him with enough review. Reading at a 3rd grade level now though with fluency. So, I am not sure that dyslexia is a problem. Just some syllable work which is normal for 3rd graders I think? 

 

Writing and spelling are the bigger culprits. Not handwriting. His cursive is beautiful. His print isn't as good, but can be and takes awhile per word - maybe motor dysgraphia?  Trying to figure the best approach still. When taking dysgraphia checklists like  http://www.ncld.org/types-learning-disabilities/dysgraphia/common-warning-signs-of-dysgraphia-in-children-in-grades-3-8 Thoughts to paper issues still is huge.  My friend said that I should just focus on writing down his summarizations of a chapter or what ever we read and have him copy what I wrote --instead of working on his being able to dictate his own writing into 3 - 5 sentence paragraphs for now.  I did help him with every sentence and ask questions to help him form his sentences at times depending on the chapter.WWE did that but he hated it.  Friend said that switching spelling too much may be the issue, but he's in the 2nd grade r&S we'll see, it has some pictures. He'll be done by the end of summer, start 3rd grade R&S next year. And I will have him put the spelling into art form.  Hopefully it is ok. If we switch to LLATL (the portions of writing and spelling are smaller chunks) , maybe use it to reinforce all in shorter segments, maybe keep the the R&S spelling or drop it depending on time. I just don't know the scope and sequence well enough of both writing and spelling subjects to implement it well. 

 

 Math facts memorization with xtramath.com for +/- during 1st grade was aweful for two months straight-- addition math facts didn't click until I bought MUS and used their manipulatives. Then I reinforced with Singapore and schoolzone or 1$ books. Multiplication.com is what I used for memorizing visual multiplication facts by association. It works sometimes, he needs to be reminded which story is being told. But he loves the colorful math pictures of singapore. Hates the black and white of MUS and the word problems but loves the manipulatives. Gonna stick with Singapore for now, using 2b and will try to get through 3A and 3B. Since 2B and 3A are considered 3rd grade, he would be 1/2 year behind. 

 

Considering the mislabeled child, and Christlike Parenting. 

 

I do hope you will read the Mislabled Child since it covers a number of things, and possibly some of the other recommendations as well.

 

It is hard to know what is going on. For all that he does not fit one person's experience with dyslexia he may still have it, esp "stealth" dyslexia...or not. He may have dysgraphia...or not. He may have memory dysfunction of some sort...or not.

 

My guess is that you started to get angry, yelling etc., after you experienced frustration in trying to reach him and after trying over and over to get him to learn/remember material and that it is mostly a result of what was already happening...but it is possible that it started first and that all his trouble is a result of stress and shutting down. I am inclined to think there is more going on than a "normal" 3rd grade learner...but that is possible. None of us has met your son, and even people who have like you and your neighbor are going on hunches.

 

Many people told me not to worry with my son, but for him that was a wrong answer. For yours though, it might be the right answer.

[Hottater]

Ugh hubby thinks I am a hypochondriac with this stuff... I just tested ds words per minute reading out loud fluency for The Ballad of the Civil War book which is a Lexile 680 late 3rd grade one. it was 37.8 words per minute and for the Wizard of Oz it was 59 words per minute the second book is an Abridged 3rd grade book.. So he's reading is at a second grader's fluency and is behind in reading aloud.

 

going to use the 40L test like Elizabeth B suggested, and BTW, we took ds out to sweetFrog for doing so much testing this past weekend. Ok score was 3.8 for graded accuracy in leveled reading. For ds.

[Tiramisu]

Ugh hubby thinks I am a hypochondriac with this stuff... I just tested his words per meeting per minute reading out loud for The Ballad of the Civil War book which is a Lexile 680 late 3rd grade one. it was 37.8 words per minute and for the Wizard of Oz it was 59 words per minute the second book is an Abridged 3rd grade book.. So he's reading is at a second grader's fluency and is behind in reading aloud.

 

going to use the 40L test like Elizabeth B suggested, and BTW, we took ds out to sweetFrog for doing so much testing this past weekend. Ok score was 3.8 for graded accuracy in leveled reading.

 

Do you mean you tested your dh's reading?

[Hottater]

Lol no... I told dh that I think ds has learning deficiencies so I tested my son to show dh where the deficiencies may reside. My dh thinks the more I read twtm forums, the more I think our son has more problems than a normal kid, so I tested ds with several online self testing reading sites to show my husband where ds may have problems. I edited my post above.

[Tiramisu]

Lol no... I told dh that I think ds has learning deficiencies so I tested my son to show dh where the deficiencies may reside. My dh thinks the more I read twtm forums, the more I think our son has more problems than a normal kid, so I tested ds with several online self testing reading sites to show my husband where ds may have problems. I edited my post above.

 

FWIW, I always do tests on my family and random people I meet here and there.  :D

 

It doesn't really sound as though your ds' fluency is much to be concerned about, unless I'm misunderstanding. My dd with CAPD does have a fluency problem. On the various tests she's had, there has been a discrepancy between ability and fluency, though I don't think people would notice it in real life or it would show up when she reads aloud.

[OneStepAtATime]

OP I am dropping in here a bit late to the conversation. Sorry. I was out of town and am having computer issues.  Just wanted to encourage you, like Heather has, to read The Mislabeled Child.  Getting on here was a great call, too.  Pen, Tiramisu, Elizabeth, Lecka and many others have been of incredible help to me, as well.  I recommend reading and re-reading what they have posted, as well as reading past posts of other threads.  There is a wealth of helpful info on this board.  But reading The MIslabeled Child and other books mentioned upthread will also be incredibly useful.  I highly recommend starting with that book.  

 

As the parent of two dyslexic kids who also have other issues, as well as unusual strengths, and as the parent of one child that made it all the way to 5th grade without a diagnosis or official intervention but was actually way behind in reading and math (but masked it pretty well), I can say with certainty that all kids are different and trying to determine all of what is really wrong as a layman can be virtually impossible.  

 

My children have both been diagnosed with dyslexia.  They do not present the same way.  They did not perform the same way while in school.  They are not remediating the same way.  They have different strengths and weaknesses.  I did not believe that they had the same underlying primary issue AT ALL.  And yet they do.  Official evaluations were the only way we were able to finally tweak out some truly useful answers and the end result was incredibly surprising and informative.  I will be eternally grateful that we finally got evaluations.  Things finally made sense.

 

That being said, sometimes evaluations are financially out of reach.  I do understand.  And I also understand your DH thinking you are overreacting.  Mine did, too.  And there may not be a learning issue that a diagnosis would truly help.  I don't know.  I commend you for getting on here and asking so many questions and digging in to find answers, though.  I waited far longer than I should have to seek outside help.

 

All I can say, besides Good Job Mom for trying to make things better is Keep at it.  Don't let DH and your neighbor discourage you.  The more you read and question, the more knowledgeable you will be and the more likely it will be that you can find a better path for you and your child, whether he has LD's or not (but from what you are posting I am leaning towards there definitely being something tripping him up other than normal development/personality issues).   

 

Best wishes and good luck.

[Hottater]

A reading/ writing compare and contrast comprehension pretest for the Stanford was done today, ds immediately told me a contrast to the question verbally, then I told him to write it down, he took 45 minutes to write one sentence, again.. Zoned out between each word spelled hunt=hont and another easy Cvc word wrong, most of his words I corrected spelling on. I told him to write sentence number 2 and glazed over eyes so I told him do 10 push ups, he got in three more words and then again with the zoning..staring away another hour as I am with him trying to keep him focused. He had 2 bananas right before the test and a bathroom break. I had told another co-op friend that my ds has had issues with me during certain subjects he doesn't like. She offered to administer the Stanford test with him for me. But now I don't know if I will need to have him answer questions with her that aren't going to take all day. Or, should I give the writing questions to her and see if he reacts the same? It will confirm if it's just me that going loony over waiting for him to answer or maybe she'll show me how to get him back on task?

[OneStepAtATime]

So he is answering well verbally but bogs down only when he has to write it?  And has difficulty with spelling?  In day to day work how often, if ever, do you scribe for him?  You might consider getting Dragon Naturally Speaking software so he speaks his answers and the computer converts the answers to text.  Kidpsiration and Inspiration software are also great for helping organize thoughts.  You might want to work slowly through a systematic writing program like IEW (Institute for Excellence in Writing) to give him some scaffolding for the ideas on paper part of the process, use Dragon for most of his content writing and still have him practice physical writing separately so his ideas don't get so bogged down.  

 

There are so many critical parts to the writing process and a glitch in any of those parts (many of which are hard to tweak out) can really make writing exceedingly difficult.  Our kids struggle with writing as well.  One has dysgraphia but the other does not.  She just struggles with getting the ideas to paper.  We are in the process of providing software like I mentioned above for our kids so that they have a chance to hone their writing skills without being so undermined by some of the glitches that make this process so horrendously challenging for them.  I want the kids to LIKE writing, and to gain valuable skills and to be able to share all those great ideas and insights that they have, not to dread with every fiber of their being the very thought of putting ideas to paper.  It isn't always easy or clear how to achieve that, so I am hoping bringing in Inspiration/Dragon Speak/IEW this next year will help us.  Others have used these programs with great success....

[ElizabethB]

That sounds in the normal range for a boy his age, WPM and reading grade level wise. It still wouldn't hurt to work on multi syllable things, the better you read the easier all the other things will be.

 

Also, I did a lot of scribing for my daughter up to age 8 or 9, and even now she prefers to type instead of write if the assignment is long.

 

I would work on writing fluency separately and let him type or answer orally most of his other work. I do a lot of scribing for my 9 year old son still, it makes things go a lot faster. I will eventually teach him to type. For his end of year writing project this year, he dictated the sentences to me and I wrote them.

 

I also let my son do most of his spelling orally, or occasionally on the white board for a longer word, everything seems more fun, easier, and faster on a white board, especially if you let them pick the color of marker they want to use. Marker color privileges are surprisingly motivational.

[Hottater]

Elizabethb-For spelling, I think I will use the chalkboard iPad ap and continue the spelling city for rod and staff, the lists were already imported from another HS mom.

 

One step-Dancemat typing is great, my son already used that. His typing isn't near fluent yet. But self typing to transcribe might be better goal. I had done lots of scribing for my son. Every chapter of red badge of courage and half of moby dick I scribed for him, his summaries. He didn't type it out, cause he said he couldn't read my hand writing to type it... I think it was just an excuse. Maybe I'll get him there eventually.. Lol we also picked vocab words out to define them. I defined most and he looked up some. Torn between iew and spectrum and LLATL- I have the latter two.

[Tiramisu]

We started typing around fourth grade with dance mat, too. It seems like you are already doing this, but one recommendation I got here was too take physical writing out of the content areas and do handwriting as a separate subject. It sound as though his handwriting is good, though.

 

One thought about slowly getting the process of thinking and writing going is to use WWE, starting at the first level. I see it in your siggy. Do you use it with this child.

 

One thing you could do, if you haven't already, is get an OT eval. I just had my youngest checked and she turned out to have sings of convergence insufficiency and tracking. Her handwriting isn't great; it isn't horrible either. Her spacing is slightly off in that she tends not to start at the left margin but out into the page, which I think is related to a midline problem. She doesn't have bad spacing between words and never had reversals.

 

My second only had minor reversals at an early age. Her spacing was weird. She also had convergence insufficiency and a tracking problem, but with more visual motor difficulty mixed in. Her visual-motor skills were lower and she stammered when younger and now has a hard time getting the right word out sometimes. 

 

When you have these weaknesses the thinking and writing combination isn't smooth.

[OneStepAtATime]

Elizabethb-For spelling, I think I will use the chalkboard iPad ap and continue the spelling city for rod and staff, the lists were already imported from another HS mom.

 

One step-Dancemat typing is great, my son already used that. His typing isn't near fluent yet. But self typing to transcribe might be better goal. I had done lots of scribing for my son. Every chapter of red badge of courage and half of moby dick I scribed for him, his summaries. He didn't type it out, cause he said he couldn't read my hand writing to type it... I think it was just an excuse. Maybe I'll get him there eventually.. Lol we also picked vocab words out to define them. I defined most and he looked up some. Torn between iew and spectrum and LLATL- I have the latter two.

Actually, both kids have been working on typing skills for a couple of years now.  Neither is proficient yet, for different reasons.  This means that typing itself takes effort and is not an efficient way for them to present information, any more than handwriting it is, at this point.  We will continue to work on handwriting and we will continue to work on typing, but until both of those processes are automatic I am putting in place other systems so that when they are writing in content areas they can focus on their ideas and the organization of their ideas without getting bogged down in the mechanics of output.

 

There are a lot of reasons why handwriting/typing can cause difficulty with getting something on paper.  For instance, DS10 always seemed to struggle to copy.  His teacher thought he was just being lazy.  She was wrong.  He wanted very badly to copy from the board to his paper.  But his unusual form of dysgraphia and his undiagnosed heterophoria (vision issue) were tripping him up and making the process exceedingly difficult.   He has 20/15+ vision, but his left eye tracks just slightly out of alignment.  We didn't know this until just a couple of months ago.  This has caused a whole host of problems that were originally associated with laziness and then later with dyslexia.  While he is dyslexic, the heterophoria causes more issues for DS than DD, who is also dyslexic but does not have heterophoria, has to deal with.  DS is not lazy, but he does have a deficit that was not being accounted for at first.  

 

My point, I guess, is that when the kids are struggling with something, or not putting out the quality of work that I expect them to, I frequently need to step back and reexamine whether something else is going on besides just laziness or a bad attitude.  Perhaps I didn't explain the assignment well enough (even though it seemed clear to me).  Or we have not reviewed previous concepts/skills well enough (this happened frequently when we first started homeschooling).  Or there is an underlying issue that is causing the process to be far more difficult than I realized.  Or the material I am using really is a lousy fit.  Or I need to separate the mechanics from the ideas.   Or my own frustration and irritation are coming through and the kids are shutting down.  etc.

 

When I step back, take a deep breath, come at it from a more positive viewpoint and approach them as if we are a team, things usually smooth out quite a bit and we are able to brain storm together how to address the issues.  It doesn't always work, and yes we do get frustrated with each other (sometimes a LOT), but all we can do is try harder the next time to keep from letting our emotions undermine the learning process.

 

Hugs, Hottater.  I have faith that with all that you are doing to reexamine and revamp your situation you will find a great path for you and your family, whatever that path may be.

[Hottater]

Tiramisu- we've done wwe 1 and 2 up to lesson 26 or 28? it was great that he liked the picture on the workbook page but it was hair pulling for him to do the writing = 2 hours- plus seriously, his thought to paper is redonkulous. He has completed a reason for handwriting Transition book. His cursive was better than mine at one point.

 

One step- Thank you for your example. I might want to take him to a ophthalmologist. Never had his eyes checked. We don't use things like far away chalkboards, but I have used rulers for reading, for tracking, no matter if he didn't like it or what. Tracking to write... Interesting. I should use it for his copy work and see how fast he can do it. The only other issue is thought of his own words to paper... That's the bigger hump. Thanks for your isolation of mechanics methods. Have you used a viewfinder? Like cut out a hole in an index card the size of the line of font and let him move it as he copies each word? It blocks out all the other words above and below his current line, so as to help him track even better?

[Tiramisu]

Tiramisu- we've done wwe 1 and 2 up to lesson 26 or 28? it was great that he liked the picture on the workbook page but it was hair pulling for him to do the writing = 2 hours- plus seriously, his thought to paper is redonkulous. He has completed a reason for handwriting Transition book. His cursive was better than mine at one point.

 

 

 

Can you limit the WWE stuff to one single short sentence? As in let him do the oral narration and copy work if that's not hard for him, but limit the dictation. Since his handwriting is good if you write the narrations and he does the copywork, that shouldn't be stressful. Or is it?

 

I'd have to go back and read over what else you're doing but maybe one very short, single sentence dictation per day, with him having seen the sentence the previous day. I know it's very, very hard. I'm just wondering if it would work as therapy to break it down into much smaller increments and go forward very slowly from there.

 

Definitely get the eyes checked. If visual acuity with a regular optometrist or ophthalmologist is good, don't give up and get an eval with a covd doctor.

[Hottater]

covd doctor?

and when you mean 1 sentence per day - all 5 days? Cause after wwe 2 I got up to 2 sentences doing all worksheets and following all formats (still a 2 hour function), and with spectrum writing i got up to 3 but, it's been 2 plus hours with bathroom breaks and sometimes a food snack and me constantly trying to help him get focused. (C'mon kid- try to pay attention, let's get back on task, you can do it, after the 10th time, this is where frustration sets in). But I did spectrum maybe every other day or every 3 days. Trying to understand where mechanics hits frequency and if it helps resolve the issue. 

 

The way that spectrum writing works is there is two pages of fill in the blanks and then maybe a graphic organizer- (important for vsl) (venn diagram) or word web, a list,  and then the composition of 3 or more sentences for a paragraph of some sort- It might be for a compare contrast,write about a top to bottom view of a cave to describe,  it might be for a personal letter. So the thought to paper happens every 2 to three days. So I am still trying to see how explicit i have been (as I write this) or haven't been already and what else to modify. Spectrum has been better than WWE to help organize thoughts to paper with visual stimuli and diagramming, but some of the harder lessons like the lesson on writing to a specific audience had him really stumped. And he's still taking a long time zoning, but less balking and crying than with WWE, that's why I changed it -he doens't cry with Spectrum, but will zone if he doesn't get it, even though I constantly remind him, if you don't get something ask or whatnot. 

 

My friend with 2 dyslexic children directed me to a person who would help write an IEP for me. (private -$400) Not sure if I should call her just yet. Just trying to check out my options before I make any financial leaps. 

[OneStepAtATime]

Tiramisu- we've done wwe 1 and 2 up to lesson 26 or 28? it was great that he liked the picture on the workbook page but it was hair pulling for him to do the writing = 2 hours- plus seriously, his thought to paper is redonkulous. He has completed a reason for handwriting Transition book. His cursive was better than mine at one point.

 

One step- Thank you for your example. I might want to take him to a ophthalmologist. Never had his eyes checked. We don't use things like far away chalkboards, but I have used rulers for reading, for tracking, no matter if he didn't like it or what. Tracking to write... Interesting. I should use it for his copy work and see how fast he can do it. The only other issue is thought of his own words to paper... That's the bigger hump. Thanks for your isolation of mechanics methods. Have you used a viewfinder? Like cut out a hole in an index card the size of the line of font and let him move it as he copies each word? It blocks out all the other words above and below his current line, so as to help him track even better?

Edited to add that Tiramisu and I cross posted.  COVD link is below.  They are Developmental Optometrists.

 

Actually, an ophthalmologist or even a standard optometrist may not net you much.  DS had his eyes examined every year.  Neither ever caught the issue.  Only after the lovely ladies on this board recommended I send DS to a Developmental Optometrist, and then I asked specifically for a developmental eye screening, not a standard eye screening, did the issue finally get noticed.  

 

You could check on this site I linked below to see if one is in your area.  Mine wasn't actually on that list and he doesn't have as much experience as I would have liked, but at least he pointed us in the right direction.  Fair warning, there seems to be a bit of a professional jealousy or holier than thou attitude between ophthalmologists and Developmental Optometrists.  I had the former call the later a quack at one point.  Of course, the former also said there was no such thing as dyslexia or ADHD, etc.  I would suggest asking around to see if others felt they did a good job and call different ones if you have more than one option.  Prices may vary widely. Not all Developmental Optometrists are created equal, either. Insurance may cover the initial eye exam, even if it is a developmental eye screening.  If they find something that requires a more thorough examination, that exam may not be covered.  Depends on the insurance.

 

http://www.covd.org/

 

 

Thanks for the suggestion regarding a viewfinder.  Actually, we use that when we are doing our Barton Reading and Spelling lessons.  It comes with one and we incorporate it on a regular basis.  I have not used it outside of Barton, however.  I may create one just for outside reading/writing so I don't misplace the Barton one.   :)

[Tiramisu]

covd doctors deal with issues with the control of eye muscles. A tracking problem is when the eyes can't move smoothly from place to place, so people lose their place in reading or skip lines or re-read lines. Convergence insufficiency is as common as adhd and shares the same symptoms. It happens when the person's eye muscles have a harder time keep the eyes close together as is necessary for reading. Convergence insufficiency is very treatable according to research and,  for that reason, it is one of the more likely conditions to be covered by insurance. But, still, coverage can be hard to get.

 

Two dd's have been dx'd with both of these conditions. I was shocked when the OT told me that this is the only problem she could find in my youngest, considering all the writing issues she's had.

[Hottater]

oops edited post above while you were typing. LOL I am fascinated!

[Tiramisu]

covd doctor?

and when you mean 1 sentence per day - all 5 days? Cause after wwe 2 I got up to 2 sentences doing all worksheets and following all formats (still a 2 hour function), and with spectrum writing i got up to 3 but, it's been 2 plus hours with bathroom breaks and sometimes a food snack and me constantly trying to help him get focused. (C'mon kid- try to pay attention, let's get back on task, you can do it, after the 10th time, this is where frustration sets in). But I did spectrum maybe every other day or every 3 days. Trying to understand where mechanics hits frequency and if it helps resolve the issue. 

 

The way that spectrum writing works is there is two pages of fill in the blanks and then maybe a graphic organizer- (important for vsl) (venn diagram) or word web, a list,  and then the composition of 3 or more sentences for a paragraph of some sort- It might be for a compare contrast,write about a top to bottom view of a cave to describe,  it might be for a personal letter. So the thought to paper happens every 2 to three days. So I am still trying to see how explicit i have been (as I write this) or haven't been already and what else to modify. Spectrum has been better than WWE to help organize thoughts to paper with visual stimuli and diagramming, but some of the harder lessons like the lesson on writing to a specific audience had him really stumped. And he's still taking a long time zoning, but less balking and crying than with WWE, that's why I changed it -he doens't cry with Spectrum, but will zone if he doesn't get it, even though I constantly remind him, if you don't get something ask or whatnot. 

 

My friend with 2 dyslexic children directed me to a person who would help write an IEP for me. (private -$400) Not sure if I should call her just yet. Just trying to check out my options before I make any financial leaps. 

 

Personally, I'd be inclined to stick with Spectrum if he likes that. I appreciate the need to stick with likes. Perhaps you can WWEify it. As in, do the organizers. Have him tell you the sentences he wants to write aloud. You write the sentences. He looks at them. You dictate the sentences to him. Break the process into increments that are manageable to him. Maybe he may need a sentence a day. I'd then troubleshoot to get the time down to something reasonable. My reasoning is that two hours spent on writing won't accomplish any more than a solid, short chunk. Two hours won't help him, but instead it could be very boring, stressful, and demoralizing and make him hate writing more. I'd aim for breaking it into intense increments of twenty or thirty minutes with you by his side every minute. Maybe with a treat at the end. I know you're thinking "no way, it can't happen" but I believe you should try to aim for that and just see how it works.

 

I remember reading that it's detrimental to force dyslexics to read a lot without trying to remediate with a proven, effective method. I'm kind of applying that principle here. The OT's advice for my dd was to do five minutes of handwriting a day, no more, but during that time she should put forth her best effort.

[OneStepAtATime]

Personally, I'd be inclined to stick with Spectrum if he likes that. I appreciate the need to stick with likes. Perhaps you can WWEify it. As it do the organizers. Have him tell you the sentences he wants to write aloud. You write the sentences. He looks at them. You dictate the sentences to him. Break the process into increments that are manageable to him. Maybe he may need a sentence a day. I'd then trouble shoot to get the time down to something reasonable. My reasoning is that two hours spent on writing won't accomplish any more than a solid, short chunk. Two hours won't help him, but instead it could be very boring, stressful, and demoralizing and make him hate writing more. I'd aim for breaking it into intense increments of twenty or thirty minutes with you by his side every minute. Maybe with a treat at the end. I know you're thinking "no way, it can't happen" but I believe you should try to aim for that and just see how it works.

 

I remember reading that it's detrimental to force dyslexics to read a lot without trying to remediate with a proven, effective method. I'm kind of applying that principle here. The OT's advice for my dd was to do five minutes of handwriting a day, no more, but during that time she should put forth her best effort.

I was told the same thing for dyscalculics.   DD and I take math in small chunks.  She and I work on a particular area together, then take a break.  Later, she works with me nearby, again for a smaller chunk.  Later in the afternoon is another chunk.  Takes a bit of organizing but she is much better able to put forth real effort and retain the info...and be able to do well the next day.

[Hottater]

http://flic.kr/p/nFhV2Z


http://flic.kr/p/nHniat

Just to let u all know it's helping a ton... His spelling oral quiz today on spelling city ipad link grade 2 lesson 13 for  R&S word list was 100% With a bathroom break. Spelling- I did help him with the word girls. Which he got wrong last Friday. Spelled it out ten times before, and in a sentence and did the picto-word before the test. Then during the word test as he was about to hit enter on "grils" I said, are you sure? I shouldn't have said anything, but he eventually fixed it. 

We did the viewfinder for writing and had me scribe it while he copied my scribing. It was 2 sentences at 45 minutes.
We will see how the words work on long term memory... That's a big issue too. He spelled "fun" -"pone" wrong yesterday. He said ph says f was his reasoning. He knows the short vowel rules don't include silent e yet he always wants to add an e.

[OneStepAtATime]

I haven't used the systems you have used for spelling/grammar but I would suggest that either you start over with spelling and go really slowly, with lots of review, being really consistent and systematic on what you work on, and incorporate multiple ways of approaching each concept or maybe move to something explicitly for struggling learners, like maybe Barton Reading and Spelling or Wilson or something along those lines.  

 

Then I would also not grade off for bad spelling in his content writing, just give him a chance to work on getting his ideas on paper, in whatever spelling format he can.  Work on spelling separately and do spelling in writing by incorporating already reviewed spelling rules/concepts into limited, targeted, controlled writing scenarios until he is stronger in this area.  Does that make any sense?  :)

 

It is taking a long time, with lots of consistent, systematic, practice for the kids to incorporate the spelling they are learning in Barton into their day to day writing.  It is happening, but it is taking a lot of time and patience.  What actually helped the most in the long run was they stopped shutting down in their writing and wanting to write more (and therefore getting more practice) when I stopped worrying about the spelling in the content writing.  They get exposure and practice in the controlled writing through Barton.  Slowly, correct spelling/grammar are starting to appear in their everyday writing as well.

[Hottater]

I want to see if this new picto word idea works first for the next month before starting over. If it worked today... it might work again. I don't want to ditch the R&S that I'd already invested $$ in. I purchased Gr2,3,4 cause I needed to understand progressions of words and how it taught stuff.  I don't grade off on writing content. I just correct him and he hates it when I correct him. Part of it might be a perfectionist attitude from him. 

[Pen]

Re IEP/testing  -- you might want to see what your local public school can do before looking into private IEP or private evaluations.

[Hottater]

Do you think that maybe I should ask my state portfolio evaluator? 

[OneStepAtATime]

Do you think that maybe I should ask my state portfolio evaluator? 

Yes.  Worth a shot.

[Hottater]

FWIW, I always do tests on my family and random people I meet here and there.  :D

 

It doesn't really sound as though your ds' fluency is much to be concerned about, unless I'm misunderstanding. My dd with CAPD does have a fluency problem. On the various tests she's had, there has been a discrepancy between ability and fluency, though I don't think people would notice it in real life or it would show up when she reads aloud.

CAPD? Oh, and funny you should say that -- I did 2 online IQ tests in the middle of the night and scored a 143 /144...then I was tinkering with trying to figure out how a visual sequential person teaches a visual spatial/kinesthetic . LOL

 

http://www.learning-styles-online.com/inventory/

 

 

I am a visual logical, he is a visual physical.

 

 

My friend with 2 dyslexic children was trying to explain to me - I was like Hypothetical - if my kid is vsl, then why did FLL which is mostly an auditory curriculum work with him? She said because of the blatant wrote memorization and repetition.  It totally made sense. So, if my ds, was able to memorize by rote all the poems even though they are auditory, then there is something to be said of consistent drills in a lower dosages for any student. Like what you all were saying.  He was able to memorize all the 50 states and capitals because it was an musical auditory and visual thing. Wakko's 50 states and capitals. We did a verse 3 times every Thursday for 24 weeks. 

[Pen]

Do you think that maybe I should ask my state portfolio evaluator? 

 

If you mean about IEPs/Evaluations, Sure. But s/he may not know. Here it turned out to  start with the county education service district  which registers homeschoolers, hence to the superintendent of the local public schools who needed to be asked to set things up, which then funneled matters to the special ed teacher, which actually then went back to someone from the ESD to do evaluations, then back to the Spec Ed to set up IEP.

[Hottater]

I was talking to a cashier friend and she had problems with her kid between 2/3rd grade, she told me to get ds tested too. She said that K12 does that kind of testing. Anyone know? She told me that her son was just VSL and that was why he was doing poorly with the teacher he had so, she got another teacher. I was also talking to another friend she said  that we can just "redshirt" our own kid. So I could technically put him back in 3rd grade in the fall/next semester until we catch up with all the writing and spelling. Then, pressure would be off of the both of us. We're 1/2 a year behind in all our curriculum anyway. Then, he'd feel "ahead" (we have other co-ops and some public school friends) I would be less pressured to make sure that he is/isn't writing up to par. Besides he was only born 1 month before the age cut off, and he's always the shortest at everything PE (although he LOVES being able to dodge and whizz by all his friends - he stealthily moves about the soccerfield/football field and they underestimate shortstuff) LOL.  

 

 

 

[Pen]

I was talking to a cashier friend and she had problems with her kid between 2/3rd grade, she told me to get ds tested too. She said that K12 does that kind of testing. Anyone know?

 

don't know

 

She told me that her son was just VSL and that was why he was doing poorly with the teacher he had so, she got another teacher. I was also talking to another friend she said  that we can just "redshirt" our own kid.

 

That is true where I am.

 

So I could technically put him back in 3rd grade in the fall/next semester until we catch up with all the writing and spelling. Then, pressure would be off of the both of us. We're 1/2 a year behind in all our curriculum anyway. Then, he'd feel "ahead" (we have other co-ops and some public school friends) I would be less pressured to make sure that he is/isn't writing up to par. Besides he was only born 1 month before the age cut off, and he's always the shortest at everything PE (although he LOVES being able to dodge and whizz by all his friends - he stealthily moves about the soccerfield/football field and they underestimate shortstuff) LOL.  

 

That might be a bit help.  You'd become 1/2 year ahead!

 

[Hottater]

We finished reading Moby Dick - We were studying whales in Colonial history and Apologia, so that's why it was Moby Dick illustrated and unabridged, he thought it was kinda neat, kinda difficult - it challenged him, he wasn't thumbs down about it at all, Queequeg was interesting character, especially since we had studied some geography in SOTW.  He actually can't wait to dive into Wizard of Oz after the Civil War ballad book. So I have been doing the WWEish idea since the Red badge of courage read. I kept on taking down his summarization and scribing for him. But, today I did something different.  So it only took me 20 minutes for me to scribe his summary of the chapter and for him to COPY what I had written with the viewfinder. YAY! that was a 1 hour and 40 minute save!!! THANK YOU EVERYONE! He did drift off twice, but not so bad! Now, I understand it takes spelling out of the equation, because he is constantly copying, I assume it helps him think about words in a sentence and what it looks like. Maybe with enough summarization sentences, he will be able to type a book report later.  But since I am working with spelling separately, it would just serve as a quicker isolated help. YAYYYYY! Too bad that the dragon dictation didn't work for him when he narrated it-- his cute little voice wasn't registering on the dictation device so well. Maybe we can graduate to vocal recorder app, after enough sentences that I scribe for him. Then he can rewind and pause to help him remember what he would write, Then have him copy. Isolating the working memory... WOW. I think I understand now.

 

ONE STEP AT A TIME and everyone else HUGS  :grouphug: . This info was most invaluable. I needed to understand the particulars of how to teach this grade and to this crazy idea. I was expecting too much  :blink: . Poor kid. If he can't think how to spell the daggone word, he sure as heck isn't going to put it on the paper... SIGH... I understand now how frustrating it is. I told him to not worry about the spelling many times over, but he didn't want to be corrected later and erase all the miss-spellings. That's why he doesn't like it. The disappointment of having to rewrite and erase most of his words is so discouraging. Let's hope that by copying his own words he will start spelling better too just because he has a good example and also with the new spelling- to- picture- card will  help solve it all. Poor first borns, they always seem to be the homeschooling guinnea pig.

[OneStepAtATime]

We finished reading Moby Dick - We were studying whales in Colonial history and Apologia, so that's why it was Moby Dick illustrated and unabridged, he thought it was kinda neat, kinda difficult - it challenged him, he wasn't thumbs down about it at all, Queequeg was interesting character, especially since we had studied some geography in SOTW.  He actually can't wait to dive into Wizard of Oz after the Civil War ballad book. So I have been doing the WWEish idea since the Red badge of courage read. I kept on taking down his summarization and scribing for him. But, today I did something different.  So it only took me 20 minutes for me to scribe his summary of the chapter and for him to COPY what I had written with the viewfinder. YAY! that was a 1 hour and 40 minute save!!! THANK YOU EVERYONE! He did drift off twice, but not so bad! Now, I understand it takes spelling out of the equation, because he is constantly copying, I assume it helps him think about words in a sentence and what it looks like. Maybe with enough summarization sentences, he will be able to type a book report later.  But since I am working with spelling separately, it would just serve as a quicker isolated help. YAYYYYY! Too bad that the dragon dictation didn't work for him when he narrated it-- his cute little voice wasn't registering on the dictation device so well. Maybe we can graduate to vocal recorder app, after enough sentences that I scribe for him. Then he can rewind and pause to help him remember what he would write, Then have him copy. Isolating the working memory... WOW. I think I understand now.

 

ONE STEP AT A TIME and everyone else HUGS  :grouphug: . This info was most invaluable. I needed to understand the particulars of how to teach this grade and to this crazy idea. I was expecting too much  :blink: . Poor kid. If he can't think how to spell the daggone word, he sure as heck isn't going to put it on the paper... SIGH... I understand now how frustrating it is. I told him to not worry about the spelling many times over, but he didn't want to be corrected later and erase all the miss-spellings. That's why he doesn't like it. The disappointment of having to rewrite and erase most of his words is so discouraging. Let's hope that by copying his own words he will start spelling better too just because he has a good example and also with the new spelling- to- picture- card will  help solve it all. Poor first borns, they always seem to be the homeschooling guinnea pig.

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

Glad things are working out better.  I know I come here to the LC board on a regular basis for knowledge, experience, support, etc.  Great people here.  I respect them and am grateful that we have the opportunity to communicate.

[Heathermomster]

Here's a book that provides hands-on reading activities.  You could pick it up during a Scholastic dollar sale.

[Hottater]

Thank you for the practical application materials. I have been watching this DVD

that I borrowed from a friend. I just talked to my cousin who is a nurse and I never tested his vision. We did a iPhone app for visual acuity and astigmatism. He didn't pass for the astigmatism test, but visual acuity was magnificent. I will have to take him to a eye doc.

[PeterPan]

Since you're taking him to an eye doc, take him to a *developmental* optometrist, rather than a regular one.  You find them through COVD.  A regular annual eye exam will be the same as anywhere else, but you can ask them to *screen* him for extra stuff that affects school work like focusing, convergence, tracking, etc.  

[OneStepAtATime]

Agree wholeheartedly with Elizabeth.  Unless you get a developmental eye exam through someone trained to screen for those issues the vision screening may not net you much of anything if your dc does have any sort of developmental eye issue.  None of DS10's eye exams ever caught that he has heterophoria.  It took me reading all the vision posts on the LC board here and encouragement from the wonderful people here to press the issue and find a person who could do a preliminary developmental eye exam that we finally discovered what other eye doctors had not.  And even though we have had to step away from VT for a bit, the VT DS did do made a difference.  

[Hottater]

Just took the stanford 10 across the board all of the subtests that were untimed -- I timed them and he took twice as long on every subtest. Math procedure and spelling being the worst at most time taken. All this with someone by his side, and many breaks in between. Spelling was closer to 3 hours for a 1/2 hour estimated allotment or average. I know that it would screw up the results, but I had to help him- I told him to write down all the words how he would spell them then compare it to the examples then decide whether theirs looked more right or his spelling looked more correct.  Holy moly almost every answer would have been wrong otherwise. Thank goodness I didn't give him an official timed test. LOTS of careless errors. Sigh.. So for our VSL's we're going to have to write EVERYTHING? Sigh... at least there were no essay questions or fill in the blank and everything was multiple choice. 

Next on the hit list: return the stanford 10, get eye doctors appointments set and piano recitals and adjudications out of the way....

 

VT? Sorry I need to find the LD acronym list.

[mommymonster]

VT = vision therapy

 

Trust Elizabeth. She knows VT! 

 

My son did vision therapy for six months. Really, really helped with focus, reading and tracking. As part of the vision processing issues, DS8 has an issue with visualizing words and letters in his mind. So think about the word "chocolate." If you close your eyes, you can probably see the letters that make up the word "chocolate." DS8 can't do that. While he tests ahead in reading, he tests quite a bit behind in spelling. Also, math is very difficult for him as well because he's unable to visualize math problems well. In any case, vision therapy helped get him further along than he would have been. 

 

Best of luck! 

[OneStepAtATime]

Hottater, big hugs.  I know this is a frustrating process and confusing, too, as to what to do and where to go and what is happening.  I would ask that you please not assume that his errors are "careless".  He isn't being "careless".  If it is taking him that long and he is struggling that hard he is overloaded.  The errors are because he IS overloaded, and almost certainly has some underlying issues.  He is not being careless.  Give yourselves hugs and some grace.  You will both make it through.  But you need better answers for what the issues are and a whole lot of patience.  Once you have better answers things will make a lot more sense and hopefully you will both have a better path to follow.

 

Best wishes.

[Hottater]

OneStep -you're right, and I've read Grace Based Parenting , and I do lack grace many times, because I just want things done. We were able to turn it in today HOORAY! We went to dunkin donuts to celebrate mailing it off to the testing center. It was hard for him, yes. And, yes, not all of his mistakes were careless, most of them were careful. He didn't want to know if his answers were right or wrong after mailing it off. (I photographed all his answers).  When he took the reading comprehension portion of the test, he was with my friend doing the testing and  he answered a ton of them wrong. I don't think he was paying as much attention as he needed to in the reading, that's why I said careless. When I did the spelling subtest with him at home, I made sure that he was being more careful, thus the time differential. Normal things that kids don't do like- check over answers etc, skim back over the reading, reading the question twice was what he was doing during the reading comprehension parts. The timing was more on par for the reading comprehension part. The spelling mistakes were legitimate. Meaning, glad I was watching his thought processes and had him writing things down, now I know how he thinks better, some more on how we need to guide his spelling in the future. Ex. How to help him learn the subject matter better and suffixes and prefix issues we need in word families. But while taking the test, I was exhausted sitting with him through every little word. It was difficult not being able to say remember this rule or that rule -which would have defeated the purpose of the test. I just did a blanket direction for all his words to keep him from marking all his answers wrong and get him to make sure he was checking all his answers.  My DH was great, he helped my DS do the Science and Social Studies parts of the test. I think it is more me as a teacher, part of it is stamina and end of year burn out. On all the portions that I gave him I was more critical and the time it took for the test was longer, except for the dictation part where I couldn't repeat anything. There is something about going over your answers, something that my husband didn't concern himself until later even when we were teaching regular instruction. Do any of your kids take their educational mistakes personally? thus the easy shut down, rather than just fix it? How would you help fix that? 

[merry gardens]

Crying as I type this, cause I am at my wits end. I have less patience with my children than other's children and I know this because when I co-op with others using Konos unit study I am way more relaxed. That being said... I don't know if my kid is learning challenged too, or if it's just me. I yell a lot, because trying to get my kids to focus takes HOURS. For my oldest especially, he's 8 and will be 9 in August. Makes me wish I had red-shirted him before homeschooling. I started him out early. We did Abeka PreK 3 and Prek 4 and Opgttr at 4.5 and he reads ok. He's at his grade 3 level in reading. (I would have thought since I started him a year early he would have been a year ahead in reading, but I think he's at a normal 3rd grader's reading level.) We read 3rd grade abeka readers and classical illustrated series abridged books (Moby dick, red badge of courage). I feebly tried to get him to write, so I forced him. He can do cursive and print and his handwriting is nice to look at, but writing in general is taking HOURS. We did FLL 1,2 which is primarily all oral and it was great. And we did WWE 1,2  (during his grade 1,2 years) and it was pulling teeth to the point of him crying, but I forced him anyway (yelling all the way.) He got through lesson 28 and I just stopped, cause it was killing my time with my other kids. He is a terrible speller too. I have switched 4 curriculum and settled on Rod and Staff grade 2. He is partially behind because I started him late and partially, because he can't remember it even after the millionth time and 4 curriculums later (I took a good one or two months per curriculum)- including some words  from Easy Grammar. There = Thar, shoe=shoo. Today because his thought to paper is so SLOW, he's taken 2 hours for a 3 page nouns test. 3.5  plus hours to complete an easy grammar adjectives test (5 page test). I was diligent to review EVERYTHING before he started, and I corrected every page in that grammar workbook as we did each page since Sept. We didn't skip anything. I switched from FLL 3 to Easy Grammar, cause it seemed to be a nice transition, and he needed to physically apply the knowledge. 2 hours for any type of writing assignment. I switched to Spectrum Writing after WWE2 because I thought something that was visual would break up things for him to conceptualize into chunks better, or so I think, at least he understands how to make a list, and a word web. His paragraphs are only 3 sentences long. And if I tell him to summarize a chapter of a book and write his summarization down, there goes another 2 hours (for 3 sentences). Does this sound like any other kid? Am I missing something? He got a 60% on his grammar nouns test, and a really low score on a verb test and I am feeling like a complete failure. Some curriculum writers are anti-testing, and some people are telling me - oh he's ok at his age. And I am cringing, because I elected to have him take the Stanford test next week, and if he is doing this poorly, I fear that the test results will show that I am a complete homeschool failure despite what others say. PLUS, trying to wait patiently for that type of test will surely make me go nuts.  :cursing:  :scared:  Now, I know that he is nowhere near the type of remediation or need for medical aid my autistic nephews are at, so technically my problems are not that bad, but I need to know if I should ask a specialist to figure out what the heck is going on? 

 

HELP!

 

With my kindy - she can actually do all her three R's in 2.5 hours. 

 

First of all (((hugs)))! 

Yelling is a sign that something is wrong, but it's not always easy to detect exactly what the problem is. 

 

Forgive me for this next comment ahead of time, but I had a very hard time reading your entire post.  I realize you were emotional when you wrote it, but did you realize that you wrote one, great, big, paragraph, packed with loads of facts and tons of information?  It was too much for me to take in all at once without putting forth a great deal of effort. 

 

I've learned about myself in the past, that sometimes when I am worried about my children's learning, I pack in too much.  Too much was simply too much--and it made the problems worse, not better. 

 

[OneStepAtATime]

OneStep -you're right, and I've read Grace Based Parenting , and I do lack grace many times, because I just want things done. We were able to turn it in today HOORAY! We went to dunkin donuts to celebrate mailing it off to the testing center. It was hard for him, yes. And, yes, not all of his mistakes were careless, most of them were careful. He didn't want to know if his answers were right or wrong after mailing it off. (I photographed all his answers).  When he took the reading comprehension portion of the test, he was with my friend doing the testing and  he answered a ton of them wrong. I don't think he was paying as much attention as he needed to in the reading, that's why I said careless. When I did the spelling subtest with him at home, I made sure that he was being more careful, thus the time differential. Normal things that kids don't do like- check over answers etc, skim back over the reading, reading the question twice was what he was doing during the reading comprehension parts. The timing was more on par for the reading comprehension part. The spelling mistakes were legitimate. Meaning, glad I was watching his thought processes and had him writing things down, now I know how he thinks better, some more on how we need to guide his spelling in the future. Ex. How to help him learn the subject matter better and suffixes and prefix issues we need in word families. But while taking the test, I was exhausted sitting with him through every little word. It was difficult not being able to say remember this rule or that rule -which would have defeated the purpose of the test. I just did a blanket direction for all his words to keep him from marking all his answers wrong and get him to make sure he was checking all his answers.  My DH was great, he helped my DS do the Science and Social Studies parts of the test. I think it is more me as a teacher, part of it is stamina and end of year burn out. On all the portions that I gave him I was more critical and the time it took for the test was longer, except for the dictation part where I couldn't repeat anything. There is something about going over your answers, something that my husband didn't concern himself until later even when we were teaching regular instruction. Do any of your kids take their educational mistakes personally? thus the easy shut down, rather than just fix it? How would you help fix that? 

Edited to add the following is not a criticism of you, just my humble opinions based on my experiences as a parent and as a teacher and as a member of a family of a lot of ps teachers.

 

Quote 1:  If he is answering a lot of reading comprehension questions incorrectly, there could be MANY issues going on that are tripping him up.  I don't think most parents realize (I certainly didn't for a very long time) that "just paying attention" involves a LOT of different thought processes.  If any one of those are not functioning fluidly then "just paying attention" may not be possible without a lot of scaffolding.  When taking a test like what was being administered that may be challenging to do.

 

Quote 2:  If the rules are not automatic then working memory, which may already be overloaded, is probably maxed out, among other potential issues.  He may not be able to just "remember" this rule or that rule.  

 

When I started using Barton for language arts with my kids I had several parents warn me that if I was just drilling rules and moving on they would not be successful.  They had to internalize each piece so it is automatic before moving on to the next piece, as well as review many times all those little pieces as they learn to integrate all that knowledge.  And it can take years.  Once I stopped checking off boxes, assuming because they did well on one piece on one day that it was mastered and time to move on, and instead kept reviewing those tiny pieces and integrating those tiny pieces slowly, then things finally started to gel.

 

Quote 3:  Yes.  Yes they do.  To fix the shut down I stopped grading for nearly two years.  I chucked out grading and corrections after the fact, except for the tiny pieces.  For example, with spelling, as they learned a spelling rule and we practiced applying it in many different ways, I gave no grades.  And I did not mark up papers to show all the errors and then make them do it all again.  It just undermined their confidence at every turn and did very little to help with long term retention.  If there were mistakes, Barton showed me how to help them with "guided discovery" where they find where the errors are and discover for themselves, whenever possible, how to fix the error.  

 

I do that same thing with math.  First they do a lesson with me where we sit together and work on learning something or reviewing something together.  Even though DD kind of fought me on this for a while because she wanted total independence, she wasn't ready so I frequently had to sit with her and go over the material slowly.  I only have her go off and do her own thing once I am certain she is pretty darn clear on what we are doing.  It backfires every time she just wants to grab a bunch of worksheets and do things completely independently.  

 

Afterwards they do some problems on their own.  I then give them an answer key and they check the problems themselves.  If there is an error they have a checklist they review to determine where the disconnect occurred and then they try to fix it on their own.  If they can't then we go over the material again.  Without the checklist they would be lost, though.  Determining the disconnect is not automatic yet.  Once I stopped giving grades and focused on the idea that the goal is not the grade but understanding the material and how to figure out what went wrong when they don't, they were much more enthusiastic and try hard to understand where the problems lie and fix them.  I also emphasize a LOT what they did correctly and I try to do that across all subjects.

 

I am not always successful.  I get drained.  I get frustrated.  So do the kids.  But I have found that, as others have mentioned upthread, when I focus on what is working well, emphasize to my kids all the successes and positives, keep lessons pretty short, realize that this is a marathon not a sprint, etc. things roll much smoother.

 

Best wishes..... :)

[Hottater]

One step -you live up to your screen name! Thank God for you.... I love how you put me in my place. (I love your constructive non- condemning criticism.) Wished we all lived next to each other! Just scheduled my son with a developmental optometrist. Hopefully insurance will also cover anything beyond the first evaluation.

I wish I could just upload all the research you all have done into my brain, so I can just teach him correctly the first time without taking things impatiently Kwim? Grr, so sequential box checker of me.... Wow Barton is expensive. Ds just complained to me of astigmatism type of vision issues, and some doubling when I pulled up a webpage about visual issues. I asked him if he saw his reading like the doubling example or if he saw it singularly. He said sometimes he sees it one way and sometimes another. I asked him about several books that we read in the past. And he said twice with one book and once with another. My husband said he probably sees the doubling when he is tired and reads late. He did say the view finders helped.

[OneStepAtATime]

Hottater, huge hugs to you.  Honestly, a whole lot of people who post on this board have been where you are, including me, and many more will follow.  Teaching kids is challenging under the best of circumstances.  When you and your child don't process things the same way it becomes doubly difficult.  I admire you for questioning and seeking and generally opening yourself up to suggestions and observations.  That takes courage.  Cheers to you, Mom.

 

When we first started homeschooling I had the most enormously steep learning curve.  It was exhausting.  It took quite a while to realize that DD and DS do not learn the same way and that neither really learns the way I do.  It was a challenge.  And we all got a bit frustrated and stressed. 

 

An example I will share is our math lessons.  For various reasons, even though they are 3 1/2 years apart in age, they were both doing the same math lessons.  DD would get so stressed and upset and so would DS and then I would end up really grumpy myself.  I finally realized that even though DS needs material in color (this came out in his evaluation), color distracts DD.  Also, DS needs to talk through his material out loud after I introduce a concept, and then physically walk around as he processes the information before he can sit down again and do the problems.  

 

On the flip side of that coin, DD cannot think if someone else is talking.  Quite literally her working memory resources get completely overloaded if she is trying to think through something while I am still talking or her brother is talking.  I had to separate them.  With DD, I started photocopying the pages so they were in black and white and because she is very kinesthetic I had to include a lot of manipulatives.  I also show her the big picture first, then let her work with me to break down the pieces using manipulatives to understand things, but I don't talk much.  She can't process if I am still talking.  

 

On the other hand, DS needs to discuss the material with me.  We even sing the lessons at times or come up with stories for the numbers.  And he will talk to himself out loud afterwards to solidify concepts before tackling paper or dry erase problems.  I have to do his lessons when DD is occupied in another room.

 

It took forever, and a lot of frustration on everyone's part, before we finally found a better balance.   Do we still have rough days?  You bet.  But things are much better now.

 

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

[Hottater]

One step Wow.. Now that is explicit. That's what I needed to hear. Holy moly...thank you for the explanation. Now that's catered learning! Serious applause for your being able to bend to the needs of your children. That's hard work.

 

I wouldn't say it's courageous on my part. (Quote it takes courage) But I whole heartedly appreciate your encouragement. I'm not afraid because I don't deal with many stereotypes. I would get disgruntled and weary of spending too much money or time in the wrong direction though. I don't get ashame dor scared if there is a grouping of kids with LD's or learning challenges, or if I or my kids are in any of those categories, because I know so many people with issues that if it's not physiological, it's psychological, or vice, or what have you. I kinda look at life with kids and people like the autism speaks logo with the puzzle piece. I want to find what works so that we're not continually frustrated to get stuff working. Continually being frustrated is akin to a side of insanity that I don't want ~like finding a corner in round room. Sometimes we are just doing and creating out of necessity. Necessity is the mother of invention, right?

 

I also am easily distracted myself. So I developed a check box mentality just to make sure I get something accomplished. If I don't get listy, I would just procrastinate and not get things done. I am a last minute type of person. Fighting my own short comings while dealing with their types of learning while I am not used to teaching that way is really hard. I guess everyone has to figure it out.

 

Is the evaluation that you did for your kids the full neuro psych? In order to determine color stimulus learning? Or was it the developmental optometrist visit?