Homeschool teen kicked out of local prom because the male chaperones found her too sexy

[mommymilkies]

Blog from another young woman who attended:

 

http://calliehobbs.wordpress.com/2014/05/14/dads-are-not-the-problem/

 

News article with comments

 

 

http://www.nbc12.com/story/25509214/homeschool-prom

I know I shouldn't read comments but this one: Give me a break says:

May 14, 2014 at 1:07 pm

Sounds like she wasn’t thrown out because of the dress, but because she was dancing like a whore. SHE brought it upon HERSELF. Not the other way around

About made me puke. WTF?

 

First of all, all dancing is provocative.  I mean, come on.  It's dancing.  Secondly, that's sooooooooooo subjective.  Thirdly, so they lied about why she was kicked out?  Fourth, that's just freaking ridiculous.  Provided they were clothed, I can't imagine how one can "dance like a whore".  IDK about your experience, but is dancing what hookers usually do?  Not that I'm experienced there, but I certainly don't have my head in the sand.

[bolt.]

The other blog is fascinating: full of assumptions, jargon and values statements that expect like-mindedness, not just following the rules... However a good critique of the characterization of ogling dads (who were probably just supervising, or possibly asked their opinions about the dress or dance moves, before action was taken). Plus, I think, a correct identification of the genre of 'yellow journalism' (which we all need to expect these days esp in the Internet).

[unsinkable]

I found the comments on the blog post interesting... there's definitely an indication here that there is more to the story than the original blog post let on.

Yeah. Interesting.

 

9 people being asked to leave, not counting Clare's friends

 

The dads were on the balcony running lights, not just overlooking the dance

 

That Clare was warned before she was told to leave

[mommymilkies]

The other blog is fascinating: full of assumptions, jargon and values statements that expect like-mindedness, not just following the rules... However a good critique of the characterization of ogling dads (who were probably just supervising, or possibly asked their opinions about the dress or dance moves, before action was taken).

Yes, it's no more a full version than Clare's.  It's full of second and third hand gossip about why she was kicked out and her behavior. 

 

Either way, it's not like this is the first time something like this has happened. 

[unsinkable]

The other blog is fascinating: full of assumptions, jargon and values statements that expect like-mindedness, not just following the rules... However a good critique of the characterization of ogling dads (who were probably just supervising, or possibly asked their opinions about the dress or dance moves, before action was taken).

You could say the same thing about Clare's: assumptions, jargon, value statements...

 

Edit to add: Clare's sister said in the interview that her blog is a place for people to speak out against Christian patriarchy.

[bolt.]

You could say the same thing about Clare's: assumptions, jargon, value statements...

Yes, people's jargon often reveals their presuppositions. It was just interesting which presuppositions were revealed as part of the (presumed) values of (possibly) the organizers -- at least the ones of the 2nd blog writer.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Yeah. Interesting.

 

9 people being asked to leave, not counting Clare's friends

 

The dads were on the balcony running lights, not just overlooking the dance

 

That Clare was warned before she was told to leave

 

Yeah, except the writer of that blog doesn't say she could hear what was said to Clare.  She is going on what she heard from others. I am not sure why her version is considered to be so credible.

[Kathryn]

I found the comments on the blog post interesting... there's definitely an indication here that there is more to the story than the original blog post let on.

Yes, the comments from people who say they were there paint quite a different picture, and one that makes a lot more sense.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Reading the second blog again, the author's bias is pretty clear here: "Clare talks about how she isn’t responsible for other people’s thought or drives, but she admits in her blog post that she looked hot and would turn heads when walking through a door."

 

How dare a young woman look hot! And she admits it! Tart!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[FaithManor]

Blog from another young woman who attended:

 

http://calliehobbs.wordpress.com/2014/05/14/dads-are-not-the-problem/

 

News article with comments

 

 

http://www.nbc12.com/story/25509214/homeschool-prom

Well, the comments are all over the place. The mother who decorated and the other mother that wrote claimed that it was inappropriate dancing and Clare's "loudness" that got her asked to leave. BUT, every student that posted said no one was dancing yet, and that it absolutely was the dress and that the "impure thoughts" comments were made.

 

Who do we believe?

 

I find it hard to believe that she was dancing in a provocative manner - again another subjective statement because I've known many conservative Christians that consider waltzing to be provocative as well as the Charleston and even English Country Line dancing so I can't get to up in arms about the dancing part without knowing what the criteria was - when so many students on the blog and some that posted on the news article said no one was dancing. Someone is not telling the truth and in the "cover your ass" world, I actually think it's more likely that the students are correct. Otherwise, someone out of those 500 or the organizer woman in charge would have produced a photo that the dancing had commenced in order to lend veracity to their statement.

 

If the impure thoughts comments weren't made, then why not issue a statement about what was said since this has gone viral?

 

I've been around the conservative homeschooling community long enough to know that when it comes to how a girl dresses or acts "impure thoughts" is the go-to phrase to be used against her and it comes out of the mouths of leadership all.the.live.long.day. It is hard for me to believe that actually anything said about her dress would not have included those kinds of comments. That is just the norm. Our church fired a youth pastor and his wife one time for constantly chattering at the kids about every choice they made by using the "impure thoughts" line. Until they all set around in robes and quiet like a quaker meeting, those two would not have been happy and they were not nearly as conservative as the local homeschool group was.

 

Either be inclusive or don't. If your not going to be inclusive, then set the many rules you are going to make about it in stone before you sell the tickets.

[mommymilkies]

Nobody is going to get the full picture.  Each side has their own opinion and very few were there first hand.  The ones that were, surely saw things by their own perspective.  That said, whether or not it happened one way or another doesn't make a whole lot of difference to the issue on hand-the inequal expectations of modesty for females to prevent males from thinking "impure" thoughts.  

[mommymilkies]

Well, the comments are all over the place. The mother who decorated and the other mother that wrote claimed that it was inappropriate dancing and Clare's "loudness" that got her asked to leave. BUT, every student that posted said no one was dancing yet, and that it absolutely was the dress and that the "impure thoughts" comments were made.

 

Who do we believe?

 

I find it hard to believe that she was dancing in a provocative manner - again another subjective statement because I've known many conservative Christians that consider waltzing to be provocative as well as the Charleston and even English Country Line dancing so I can't get to up in arms about the dancing part without knowing what the criteria was - when so many students on the blog and some that posted on the news article said no one was dancing. Someone is not telling the truth and in the "cover your ass" world, I actually think it's more likely that the students are correct. Otherwise, someone out of those 500 or the organizer woman in charge would have produced a photo that the dancing had commenced in order to lend veracity to their statement.

 

If the impure thoughts comments weren't made, then why not issue a statement about what was said since this has gone viral?

 

I've been around the conservative homeschooling community long enough to know that when it comes to how a girl dresses or acts "impure thoughts" is the go-to phrase to be used against her and it comes out of the mouths of leadership all.the.live.long.day. It is hard for me to believe that actually anything said about her dress would not have included those kinds of comments. That is just the norm. Our church fired a youth pastor and his wife one time for constantly chattering at the kids about every choice they made by using the "impure thoughts" line. Until they all set around in robes and quiet like a quaker meeting, those two would not have been happy and they were not nearly as conservative as the local homeschool group was.

 

Either be inclusive or don't. If your not going to be inclusive, then set the many rules you are going to make about it in stone before you sell the tickets.

I'm out of likes, so a big  :iagree:

[5of5]

Yeah, except the writer of that blog doesn't say she could hear what was said to Clare.  She is going on what she heard from others. I am not sure why her version is considered to be so credible.

 

Speaking only for myself, I didn't mean to imply that her version was MORE credible.  But the comments, IF they are to be believed, suggest that there were more things going on than what was known originally.

[FaithManor]

I know I shouldn't read comments but this one: Give me a break says:

May 14, 2014 at 1:07 pm

Sounds like she wasn’t thrown out because of the dress, but because she was dancing like a whore. SHE brought it upon HERSELF. Not the other way around

About made me puke. WTF?

 

First of all, all dancing is provocative.  I mean, come on.  It's dancing.  Secondly, that's sooooooooooo subjective.  Thirdly, so they lied about why she was kicked out?  Fourth, that's just freaking ridiculous.  Provided they were clothed, I can't imagine how one can "dance like a whore".  IDK about your experience, but is dancing what hookers usually do?  Not that I'm experienced there, but I certainly don't have my head in the sand.

Pole dancing yes, for the most part, whatever dancing that goes on minus say "Miley Cyrus twerking" (something that isn't allowed in even our most liberal public school and the kids absolutely no they will be asked to leave if they do) isn't particularly whorish. Again, Salsa, the tango, 50's style with the girls being tossed into the air and sliding under the boy's legs, tango, waltz (especially the dips), rumba, Charleston, cha-cha, jazz, any of it could be described by someone with their tail in a twist as provocative, and by most standards not be provocative. I've heard one homeschool mom say that English Country Line dancing is provocative which tells me she thinks dancing in any form, is sinful and sexual. Don't know what that King David was doing nakkid in the street, but we'll conveniently forget that part.

 

My kids like to do "Thriller" by Michael Jackson which isn't provocative in any kind of moderate sense and probably shouldn't be by conservative senses either, and yet, we've been criticized at a wedding for allowing them to do it. We were also told one time that ds's 'robot' which is profoundly good was provoking the girls to evil thoughts. How they knew this I don't know because I didn't seem them in the company of the girls being told by the girls that they were experiencing evil thoughts.

 

So, I don't put even the slightest significance on the dancing provocative statement unless the organizers again spelled out exactly what styles and dance moves would be allowed. If they did that and she violated those rules, then they had a right to ask her to leave. But, again, the mothers that posted did not say that there were rules about the styles and moves allowed and if there had been, why not state that up front so people know this and then don't think the organizers and chaperones are discriminating?

 

It's a mess. The organizers and chaperones screwed up most likely because they wanted something conservative in line with their personal worldviews and assumed that all of these kids (500, so that's representing a LOT of families) without it being hosted by a specific denomination or organization whose rules are known would "know" what they wanted without spelling it out in detail before putting tickets on sale. Nine kids got kicked out. That could happen again if some young person decided to attend with the intention of flouting the rules. But, more than likely they didn't spell it out and yet had VERY specific expectations. That is poor planning on their part. In my neck of the woods, for those organizations that clearly define the parameters, the kids that don't want to obey very rarely sign up because it's going to be "boring". There are many kids here now that don't go to prom because there are too many rules, and that's saying a lot, LOL, because the rules are pretty light and the behavior that is acceptable is rather astonishing at times!

[Kathryn]

Speaking only for myself, I didn't mean to imply that her version was MORE credible. But the comments, IF they are to be believed, suggest that there were more things going on than what was known originally.

This.

 

I also don't understand why any of her friends has to leave with her besides her date. She stated at first in her blog post that she met her friends there, then later that changes to them somehow having to leave with her. Also, there are several pictures of her and her boyfriend in the car. There is no one else in the car with them and it's definitely not a limo. You could fit one other couple in there.

[FaithManor]

This.

 

I also don't understand why any of her friends has to leave with her besides her date. She stated at first in her blog post that she met her friends there, then later that changes to them somehow having to leave with her. Also, there are several pictures of her and her boyfriend in the car. There is no one else in the car with them and it's definitely not a limo. You could fit one other couple in there.

I'll have to look it up but I thought the problem was that they were dropped off but she and her boyfriend were to take them home.

 

That would be common here because parents don't want to stay up that late or want to go out to dinner and dancing themselves somewhere else.

 

But, I would have to digging to see if my memory is correct.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

lol Now everyone starts playing True Detective.

[Kathryn]

I know I shouldn't read comments but this one: Give me a break says:

May 14, 2014 at 1:07 pm

Sounds like she wasn’t thrown out because of the dress, but because she was dancing like a whore. SHE brought it upon HERSELF. Not the other way around

About made me puke. WTF?

 

First of all, all dancing is provocative. I mean, come on. It's dancing. Secondly, that's sooooooooooo subjective. Thirdly, so they lied about why she was kicked out? Fourth, that's just freaking ridiculous. Provided they were clothed, I can't imagine how one can "dance like a whore". IDK about your experience, but is dancing what hookers usually do? Not that I'm experienced there, but I certainly don't have my head in the sand.

Also from the comments:

"As someone who was there, Clare’s very coy version of this story is less than accurate. I view it as an attempt to manipulate the truth and cast shadows where they never existed. The reason she was asked to leave is her provacative and suggestive dancing, completely inappropriate (unless of, of course, you’re a stripper) for a teen and a prom. When one chooses to rub their breasts, crotch, upper thighs and rear end as if she’s having sex on the dance floor, she has to accept the consequences. She can express her rights and freedom all she wants; she shouldn’t be surprised when people view her as a young tramp and she’s asked to go elsewhere. Her parents have quite a bit more homeschooling to do or this teen is headed for a tough ride. If people have a less than respectful opinion of her, it’s no ones fault other than her own.

She was spoken to and warned about her behavior yet, she chose to ignore authority; I applaud the chaperones for doing the right thing."

 

I think this comment explains what the comment you referenced was talking about.

[Kathryn]

lol Now everyone starts playing True Detective.

Are you referring to me? I just stated that I didn't understand it. I'm obviously not playing detective as I've not seen anything beyond what was linked here. Faith's explanation makes sense.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Also from the comments:

"As someone who was there, Clare’s very coy version of this story is less than accurate. I view it as an attempt to manipulate the truth and cast shadows where they never existed. The reason she was asked to leave is her provacative and suggestive dancing, completely inappropriate (unless of, of course, you’re a stripper) for a teen and a prom. When one chooses to rub their breasts, crotch, upper thighs and rear end as if she’s having sex on the dance floor, she has to accept the consequences. She can express her rights and freedom all she wants; she shouldn’t be surprised when people view her as a young tramp and she’s asked to go elsewhere. Her parents have quite a bit more homeschooling to do or this teen is headed for a tough ride. If people have a less than respectful opinion of her, it’s no ones fault other than her own.

She was spoken to and warned about her behavior yet, she chose to ignore authority; I applaud the chaperones for doing the right thing."

 

I think this comment explains what the comment you referenced was talking about.

 

So who is this person?  How do they know why she was kicked out? Were they part of the conversation? How do we know this person was actually there? Does their referring to her as a "tramp" and "stripper" reveal a bias?  Why do you feel this anonymous post on a blog is credible?

 

I can say that from my perspective that the language used indicates someone with some definite patriarchal attitudes, which would lead me to discount it without further information.

 

 

[FaithManor]

Also from the comments:

"As someone who was there, Clare’s very coy version of this story is less than accurate. I view it as an attempt to manipulate the truth and cast shadows where they never existed. The reason she was asked to leave is her provacative and suggestive dancing, completely inappropriate (unless of, of course, you’re a stripper) for a teen and a prom. When one chooses to rub their breasts, crotch, upper thighs and rear end as if she’s having sex on the dance floor, she has to accept the consequences. She can express her rights and freedom all she wants; she shouldn’t be surprised when people view her as a young tramp and she’s asked to go elsewhere. Her parents have quite a bit more homeschooling to do or this teen is headed for a tough ride. If people have a less than respectful opinion of her, it’s no ones fault other than her own.

She was spoken to and warned about her behavior yet, she chose to ignore authority; I applaud the chaperones for doing the right thing."

 

I think this comment explains what the comment you referenced was talking about.

Except that every single student who posted said the dancing hadn't started. So which is it? There was dancing or not dancing. That's the place to start. How could she be warned over and over again about this IF the dancing hadn't started?

 

As for the comment about the parents having quite a bit more homeschooling to do or this teen is headed for a tough ride, THAT was disrespectful and uncalled for...whatever mouth thought they had a right based on this incident to call into question the veracity of one family's homeschooling or basically saying the girl is going to end up turning out badly needed to shut up. That is not their call to make, and an ignorant statement.

 

Worst case of "not turning out right" I've ever personally witnessed was a homeschool girl from a very conservative family that was the "persona" of virtue and ended up addicted to drugs and turning tricks on a street corner in downtown Flint. I've known plenty of scantily clad, wild dancers that went on to get PH.D's, have successful careers, and not end up on heroin. So, that's just a fantastically HORRID judgment to make much less put out there for public consumption. If anything, the fact that this was included in the statement says a lot about the mindset of that particular adult and if that person were a chaperone, lends more credence to the teen story than the adult one.

 

Free speech is a guarantee. Freedom from the consequences thereof are NOT guaranteed. If the parents get up in arms about it, the person in question better take their up and comings like a grownup.

[Kathryn]

So who is this person? How do they know why she was kicked out? Were they part of the conversation? How do we know this person was actually there? Does their referring to her as a "tramp" and "stripper" reveal a bias? Why do you feel this anonymous post on a blog is credible?

 

I can say that from my perspective that the language used indicates someone with some definite patriarchal attitudes, which would lead me to discount it without further information.

None of that matters for my purposes. The comment I quoted was posted before the comment that was quoted in the post I was replying to here. My point was not who was right or wrong, but that the comment that mommymilkies was quoting was most likely in response to that commenter having read that comment.

[In2why]

And women who may have a less than average IQ or live in trailers do not deserve respect because....??  Care to fill in that blank?  

I think you read it wrong......small chested women have above average intelligence, and are classier.   That is the prevailing belief in some cultures.  I had 36D measurements in 5th grade, and that automatically made me a ditzy slut, no matter what I wore.  But if I wore something attractive I was really, really a slut. The trailer thing is new though.  But the smug, self righteousness, is the same song, different day.

[Joshin]

Reading those comments on the second blog, I'm glad we aren't part of that homeschool community. The slut shaming was ridiculous and over the top in most of the comments. My main take away is that for some unknown reasons homeschool dads are better than other dads (patently not true, I've met quite a few creepers and asses in my years of homeschooling) and that good Christian girls can't dress or act in a way that causes people to sin in thought or deed. Good on ya, blog commentators for perpetuating the belief that the female form is a shameful sexual device for sin...

 

What the comments did reveal is that all the adults were previously against Clare (she's a bad influence, this isn't the first time, etc), so I doubt it would take much to get kicked out. I'm 38 years old, a responsible adult, and an active community leader, but you can bet your last dollar if a bunch of nit-picky, nose-in-the-air, holier-than-thou hags were always giving me disapproving looks, I would push those boundaries as far as possible just to make them squirm. At 17 I wouldn't have developed the finesse to pull it off as gracefully as I can now, though, which is what this looks like to me. Scratch that, maybe not. If someone tried that impure thoughts line on me now I'd probably consider decking them. Grace and finesse aren't really my strong suits.

[Mrs Mungo]

It's a mess. The organizers and chaperones screwed up most likely because they wanted something conservative in line with their personal worldviews and assumed that all of these kids (500, so that's representing a LOT of families) without it being hosted by a specific denomination or organization whose rules are known would "know" what they wanted without spelling it out in detail before putting tickets on sale. Nine kids got kicked out. That could happen again if some young person decided to attend with the intention of flouting the rules. But, more than likely they didn't spell it out and yet had VERY specific expectations. That is poor planning on their part.

I agree that based on my experiences with homeschooling communities (I am graduating a senior this year, and we moved multiple times, homeschooling in multiple states/countries) that this is the most likely scenario. The girl might have a crap attitude, but the issue is her dress. Was it out of line with the rules they set? If not, then they should have tsked to one another and made stricter rules for next year. The second blog enforces this with its assumptions of why people homeschool, the assumption that "most homeschoolers" are conservative and so forth.

 

I whole-heartedly disagree that we should do away with dress codes. I attend a lot of social events. I receive dress code guidelines for most of them. It has nothing to do with being treated like a child, it has to do with being treated like an adult who can follow the rules set out for an event and following the wishes of your host. Both blog posts agree that she did this and was singled out and kicked out anyway.

[mommymilkies]

Also from the comments:

"As someone who was there, Clare’s very coy version of this story is less than accurate. I view it as an attempt to manipulate the truth and cast shadows where they never existed. The reason she was asked to leave is her provacative and suggestive dancing, completely inappropriate (unless of, of course, you’re a stripper) for a teen and a prom. When one chooses to rub their breasts, crotch, upper thighs and rear end as if she’s having sex on the dance floor, she has to accept the consequences. She can express her rights and freedom all she wants; she shouldn’t be surprised when people view her as a young tramp and she’s asked to go elsewhere. Her parents have quite a bit more homeschooling to do or this teen is headed for a tough ride. If people have a less than respectful opinion of her, it’s no ones fault other than her own.

She was spoken to and warned about her behavior yet, she chose to ignore authority; I applaud the chaperones for doing the right thing."

 

I think this comment explains what the comment you referenced was talking about.

 

This is just as disgusting.  Yet more "slut shaming".  "View her as a young tramp." /barf  That's what I'm talking about. The language used to describe this girl.  It's ridiculous. 

So who is this person?  How do they know why she was kicked out? Were they part of the conversation? How do we know this person was actually there? Does their referring to her as a "tramp" and "stripper" reveal a bias?  Why do you feel this anonymous post on a blog is credible?

 

I can say that from my perspective that the language used indicates someone with some definite patriarchal attitudes, which would lead me to discount it without further information.

:iagree:

[kitten18]

Why did not the girl post a photo from the front? From the side, the dress does look low cut, but hard to tell. I see no harm in telling teens to keep their breasts inside their clothes, the same with butt cheeks and upper thighs. Can we not teach women they are beautiful without having to show breasts and buttocks?

 

 

 

:confused1:  Doesn't your daughter participate in competitive dance? 

[Moxie]

I agree that based on my experiences with homeschooling communities (I am graduating a senior this year, and we moved multiple times, homeschooling in multiple states/countries) that this is the most likely scenario. The girl might have a crap attitude, but the issue is her dress. Was it out of line with the rules they set? If not, then they should have tsked to one another and made stricter rules for next year. The second blog enforces this with its assumptions of why people homeschool, the assumption that "most homeschoolers" are conservative and so forth.

 

I whole-heartedly disagree that we should do away with dress codes. I attend a lot of social events. I receive dress code guidelines for most of them. It has nothing to do with being treated like a child, it has to do with being treated like an adult who can follow the rules set out for an event and following the wishes of your host. Both blog posts agree that she did this and was singled out and kicked out anyway.

As an adult, I've never been given a dress code that stipulated hem length, sleeve length, etc.

 

Personally, I hate when my children are given a dress code. I'm their mother, I'll dress them appropriately without guidelines, tyvm.

 

The only dress code I can support would be "please dress in a way that is respectful of your person and the venue".

[DawnM]

Yeah, I thought there might be more to this story.

 

Here is just one comment:

 

I have decided to send you a note regarding Clare's prom. I wanted to tell you that I helped plan the decorations for it, and therefore, became quite close with the two women director’s during the process. I also was blessed to get to know their families. 

I found out right after Clare left the prom that there had been a problem. The director said that a woman, not man, had seen Clare behaving inappropriately during a dance. Security from the balcony (a man) was contacted to come and ask her to step outside. 

From what I gathered that night, Clare would not allow anyone else to speak. She became extremely argumentative and belligerent. Although they had ongoing concerns about Clare's dress, her behavior in the hall became the reason she was finally asked to leave. 

Once Clare's statements were posted in a blog, unknown people began writing on the Richmond Prom Homeschool Facebook page calling the fathers helping in security, perverts, pedophiles, etc. Ultimately, the directors had to close down the Facebook page. 

I remember the director being genuinely disappointed that even one student had to be confronted. There were over 500 students there who didn't have any problems. Both local and national media have now contacted the head director repeatedly. Her husband was part of security and has now been labeled as a pedophile. 

I am deeply saddened for the wonderful husbands who were called perverts, pedophiles, fundamentalists, and other terms. 

But most of all, I am sad for the two women in charge--caring football moms--who took over the prom this year to help raise money for the Disciple’s Football team.

 

My words:

 

There are several more comments from those who were there making comments about Clare's behavior.  I think she came in with an agenda and got it.  It had very little to do with her dress, but she chose something "on the edge" of the dress code.....not sure if that was an attention getter or not, but then she made waves and that did get attention. I see no one by Clare accusing the dads of being inappropriate.

 

I don't have time to read the rest of the comments, but there appear to be several others saying she came in with an attitude.  

 

Blog from another young woman who attended:

http://calliehobbs.wordpress.com/2014/05/14/dads-are-not-the-problem/

News article with comments


http://www.nbc12.com/story/25509214/homeschool-prom

 

[Moxie]

How is there no cell phone video of all this?? 500 kids and not one video??

[FaithManor]

Mrs. Mungo is correct. The host or organizer of any event has the right to have a dress code. Everyone else has the right to attend or not. In America, command events don't happen often, LOL!

 

Now, if you are a British subject and are commanded to meet the queen and the dress code is something you can't afford, that's a problem and I would take issue with the "commoner" being forced to spend grocery money to dress up for the queen. Then again, she's a neat lady and since I've seen pictures of her meeting and greeting people in all manner of casual, business, and formal wear (the possible notable exception being beach attire...not certain I've ever seen a photo of her meeting and greeting on the beach :D ... I doubt that the clothing is that huge a deal to her. At any rate, you can require what you want if you are hosting it and organizing it. BUT, what you don't have the right to do is get mad after the fact. You can't fail to spell out your expectations if these are detailed expectations and then get snarky when people don't meet them. If you care that much about what they wear, how they dance, what music is played, how far apart members of the opposite gender stand, or whatever, then by golly you better write a handbook and make each attendee read and sign a statement that they read the handbook and promise to adhere to the rules on pain of eviction if they don't and before they spend money on it.

 

Don't decide that your worldview and every nuance of it is so well known that 500 other people are naturally going to conform to all of it in a manner that makes your heart sing IF you didn't have the common decency to spell it out letter by letter. I can't read minds, your friends can't read minds, the people who don't attend church, mosque, tabernacle, temple, etc. can't read your mind and would not naturally know what you thought was good or bad on a variety of touchy subjects. For goodness sake, if you invite me to your Luau, you have to tell me ahead of time that your planning on dancing naked around the Banyon tree by evening's end and I'll be required to disrobe too. You have to tell me this. Otherwise, you and I are going to have a very bad time when you tell me to shuck my clothes. Likewise if you say there is going to be dancing and X dancing is not prohibited at my house and you don't specify what kind and what is or is not okay, then when I show up and dance in a way that doesn't bother my family, you better not get nasty because my natural reaction is going to be self-preservation and defensive posturing. Put it in the rules before I buy tickets to your event or bring wine to your dinner party or attend your wedding.

 

If you're serving wild caught sauted snake as the main course, I believe with my whole heart that I am deserving of a heads up on that too and this point is NOT negotiable! :svengo:

[Joanne]

Why did not the girl post a photo from the front? From the side, the dress does look low cut, but hard to tell. I see no harm in telling teens to keep their breasts inside their clothes, the same with butt cheeks and upper thighs. Can we not teach women they are beautiful without having to show breasts and buttocks?

 

While I see the points of all those here who say letting it all hang out is acceptable and not a deterrent to the male population, there is still at least some of us who feel it is just plain slutty. My first impression of cleavage is the poor woman must not have any intelligence or lives in a trailer. Call it an unfair generalization or whatever, but the first impression is real. Time has not changed it, nor has hearing the endless chatter if nakedness is a woman's prerogative.

 

My own DD13, and even me at a very advanced maternal age, has a knock out body. So it is not a jealousy issue or a lack of having the body that would look great in skanky clothes. We just feel the way we feel.

 

My thoughts for this girl, irrespective of her dress, was it was not her party. She has to abide by the rules of someone else whether she agrees with it or not. Next time she needs to organize the prom herself.

 

 

I see no harm in not suggesting that dress and level of "sexy" or "provocative" inherently suggests *anything* with regard to character, virtue, or heart.

 

And on the trailer park comment, I graduated with a Masters Summa Cum Laude and looked at trailers in a trailer park this weekend trying to find a place for my family to live. I probably sported some rockin cleavage - it is one of my better physical features, in spite of my age (nearly 50).

 

Finally, I don't understand the need to strip teens - or humans in general - from the inherent sexuality. "Impure thoughts" "incite lust" "provocative dancing". Dang. That is what proms are FOR. It's silly and counter productive to try to control a teen's mind to that degree.

 

And, finally, the assumption that women's dress creates bad behavior is absurd - it insults both genders. And the assumption that men/boys viewing sexy dress will be reduced in terms of how they conduct themselves within their adopted values regarding sex is insulting.

 

Here's the truth: Humans like sex. They like having sex. They like sexual activity. The like thinking about sex. They think about it with people, without people, no matter how anyone is dressed - or not. And those teens? They are already gone - they are already gone in terms of the values imposed on them by twisted theology. Ironic, no? They might be compliant in terms of dress, language, words (and even still, as evidenced by the event in this thread, get in "trouble). But their hearts? They've been lost due to the twisted, hypocritical theology for years.

[Aura]

My perception is that:

 

1) Clare had a problem with the patriarchal mindset that seems prevalent in this group, and that this caused her to come to wrong conclusions wrt the dads on the balcony.

 

She posted those accusations unfairly, and I imagine some otherwise good men might get unfairly painted with that brush.

 

2) The real problem the directors had is that she didn't back down and become embarrassed or admit that she was wrong. She stood up for what she considered a right decision (Her dress was within guidelines and she wasn't doing anything wrong).

 

So, yes, I do believe both sides did something wrong, but it's the adults in the situation that failed the most, IMO, by not acting more mature and handling the situation with grace and tact instead of the bully attitude of "I'm the adult; you have to do what I say."

 

If the adults had acted with consistency and maturity, then I doubt the dads on the balcony would have ever been an issue beyond Clare and her friends. The adults poked a dog with a stick and then got mad when the dog snapped back instead of cowering.

[Slartibartfast]

Why did not the girl post a photo from the front? From the side, the dress does look low cut, but hard to tell. I see no harm in telling teens to keep their breasts inside their clothes, the same with butt cheeks and upper thighs. Can we not teach women they are beautiful without having to show breasts and buttocks?

 

While I see the points of all those here who say letting it all hang out is acceptable and not a deterrent to the male population, there is still at least some of us who feel it is just plain slutty. My first impression of cleavage is the poor woman must not have any intelligence or lives in a trailer. Call it an unfair generalization or whatever, but the first impression is real. Time has not changed it, nor has hearing the endless chatter if nakedness is a woman's prerogative.

 

My own DD13, and even me at a very advanced maternal age, has a knock out body. So it is not a jealousy issue or a lack of having the body that would look great in skanky clothes. We just feel the way we feel.

 

My thoughts for this girl, irrespective of her dress, was it was not her party. She has to abide by the rules of someone else whether she agrees with it or not. Next time she needs to organize the prom herself.

 

I don't know that I would call it an "unfair generalization" but a classist and sexist attitude. It is bigoted to imply that trashy slutty people live in trailers. 

 

Did you look at her dress? She stated in the article that she made an effort to be within the guidelines but you automatically assumed that this 17 year old girl is a trashy, trailer park, dumb, slut.

 

That is offensive and a terrible way to treat a young woman. I wouldn't allow  that sort of attitude around my children. 

[FaithManor]

I see no harm in not suggesting that dress and level of "sexy" or "provocative" inherently suggests *anything* with regard to character, virtue, or heart.

 

And on the trailer park comment, I graduated with a Masters Summa Cum Laude and looked at trailers in a trailer park this weekend trying to find a place for my family to live. I probably sported some rockin cleavage - it is one of my better physical features, in spite of my age (nearly 50).

 

Finally, I don't understand the need to strip teens - or humans in general - from the inherent sexuality. "Impure thoughts" "incite lust" "provocative dancing". Dang. That is what proms are FOR. It's silly and counter productive to try to control a teen's mind to that degree.

 

And, finally, the assumption that women's dress creates bad behavior is absurd - it insults both genders. And the assumption that men/boys viewing sexy dress will be reduced in terms of how they conduct themselves within their adopted values regarding sex is insulting.

 

Here's the truth: Humans like sex. They like having sex. They like sexual activity. The like thinking about sex. They think about it with people, without people, no matter how anyone is dressed - or not. And those teens? They are already gone - they are already gone in terms of the values imposed on them by twisted theology. Ironic, no? They might be compliant in terms of dress, language, words (and even still, as evidenced by the event in this thread, get in "trouble). But their hearts? They've been lost due to the twisted, hypocritical theology for years.

:hurray:  :hurray:  :hurray:  :hurray:  :hurray:  Yep, conformity does not indicate squat about the heart. BTDT have the badge.

 

One of the funniest things I ever saw was when we lived briefly in northern Indiana. We were at a red light in a small town and alongside us in the second lane, came an Amish buggy with Amish couple practically break dancing inside their buggy, just getting down. We rolled down our window and could hear Michael Jackson on the radio INSIDE THEIR BUGGY! Dude had his Amish beard, his blue shirt, black suspenders, black pants, and wife had her blue dress and black bonnet riding around in their approved Amish buggy with their approved horse. Another time we saw an older Amish gentleman pulling a speed boat on a trailer behind his horse and wagon. We'd just come from the same yard sale and he had purchased it.

 

Conformity means nothing, LOL!

[Truscifi]

I write or say F * ck the patriarchy on a daily basis and I've never been in trouble for anything in my life. And regardless! Her sister (whose blog it is) is obviously correct.

 

Imagine being these guy's WIVES.

 

"Babe that 17 year old at the dance was soooo sexy I had her kicked out. Only the uggos could remain b/c I'm not responsible for my own boner, as YOU WELL KNOW."

 

raaage

 

 

I had to quote this so I could like it again!

 

 

I agree.

 

Also, and I know this will be unpopular, but if this was a homeschool prom, it is a private event run by a private organization which has the right to make up their own rules, right?

 

If it were a prom for a public school...things get dicey...taxpayer dollars and all that. And while I deplore the "you are making men stumble with your sinful curvy figure" bit, I am a big fan of freedom of association. I'm a big fan of freedoms in general.

 

What they did was not cool but did they have the right to do it? That's the real question for me.

 

 

I don't think anyone is questioning their right to kick her out since it was a private function.

 

People are just saying they were jerks to do it, and perpetuating rape culture, and making more of a comment on their own mindset and lack of self control than on the girl and her dress.

[Mrs Mungo]

As an adult, I've never been given a dress code that stipulated hem length, sleeve length, etc.

I definitely have. This is directly due to what some people wear to formal balls. If you don't attend a lot of balls with young soldiers and their dates, then I am sure it hasn't been a big issue in your life, lol! At a ball I attended a couple of years ago, there was a wife excited to show me her tattoo...on her upper thigh...which you could see because she cut a long, u-shaped, jagged, rough, unhemmed slit of sorts in her floor-length dress to show off her new upper thigh tattoo.

 

Many years ago I attended a ball where a African American woman chose not to wear any undergarments under her white, unlined dress. Her BOSS had to pull her aside and talk to her about it and she had to wear her coat the rest of the evening. That is how dress codes get written.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Yeah, I thought there might be more to this story.

 

Here is just one comment:

 

I have decided to send you a note regarding Clare's prom. I wanted to tell you that I helped plan the decorations for it, and therefore, became quite close with the two women director’s during the process. I also was blessed to get to know their families. 

 

I found out right after Clare left the prom that there had been a problem. The director said that a woman, not man, had seen Clare behaving inappropriately during a dance. Security from the balcony (a man) was contacted to come and ask her to step outside. 

 

From what I gathered that night, Clare would not allow anyone else to speak. She became extremely argumentative and belligerent. Although they had ongoing concerns about Clare's dress, her behavior in the hall became the reason she was finally asked to leave. 

 

Once Clare's statements were posted in a blog, unknown people began writing on the Richmond Prom Homeschool Facebook page calling the fathers helping in security, perverts, pedophiles, etc. Ultimately, the directors had to close down the Facebook page. 

 

I remember the director being genuinely disappointed that even one student had to be confronted. There were over 500 students there who didn't have any problems. Both local and national media have now contacted the head director repeatedly. Her husband was part of security and has now been labeled as a pedophile. 

 

I am deeply saddened for the wonderful husbands who were called perverts, pedophiles, fundamentalists, and other terms. 

 

But most of all, I am sad for the two women in charge--caring football moms--who took over the prom this year to help raise money for the Disciple’s Football team.

 

My words:

 

There are several more comments from those who were there making comments about Clare's behavior.  I think she came in with an agenda and got it.  It had very little to do with her dress, but she chose something "on the edge" of the dress code.....not sure if that was an attention getter or not, but then she made waves and that did get attention. I see no one by Clare accusing the dads of being inappropriate.

 

I don't have time to read the rest of the comments, but there appear to be several others saying she came in with an attitude.  

 

The one you quoted wasn't based on first hand information.  I bolded the key part of the comment.

 

[Mrs Mungo]

In America, command events don't happen often, LOL!

 

 

I don't know, dh's job comes with a whole lot of mandatory fun. Sure, you can skip the mandatory fun in theory, but it will reflect upon you! Granted, the job is his choice, but the fun isn't always by choice. ;)

 

I agree with the rest. :)

[LucyStoner]

Why did not the girl post a photo from the front?

 

While I see the points of all those here who say letting it all hang out is acceptable and not a deterrent to the male population, there is still at least some of us who feel it is just plain slutty. My first impression of cleavage is the poor woman must not have any intelligence or lives in a trailer. Call it an unfair generalization or whatever, but the first impression is real.

This says much more about you and your character than the people you are "unfairly generalizing".

[Moxie]

I definitely have. This is directly due to what some people wear to formal balls. If you don't attend a lot of balls with young soldiers and their dates, then I am sure it hasn't been a big issue in your life, lol! At a ball I attended a couple of years ago, there was a wife excited to show me her tattoo...on her upper thigh...which you could see because she cut a long, u-shaped, jagged, rough, unhemmed slit of sorts in her floor-length dress to show off her new upper thigh tattoo.

 

Many years ago I attended a ball where a African American woman chose not to wear any undergarments under her white, unlined dress. Her BOSS had to pull her aside and talk to her about it and she had to wear her coat the rest of the evening. That is how dress codes get written.

No, I've never been to a ball with young soldiers but I've been to plenty of fancy lawyer gigs. Yes, there is always some woman who has bought the lie that more skin always equals more sexy. Or maybe she just likes that look. Who knows?? I have no idea how a dress code could ever cover every situation. "Don't show thigh"?? What does it matter to the other adults in the room if Suzy Showoff shows her thigh?? If 500 people look one way and one person looks another way, does it reflect badly on the event??

[FaithManor]

I don't know, dh's job comes with a whole lot of mandatory fun. Sure, you can skip the mandatory fun in theory, but it will reflect upon you! Granted, the job is his choice, but the fun isn't always by choice. ;)

 

I agree with the rest. :)

Hats off to you Mrs. Mungo for the crap you put up with on behalf of this country! I don't think I would make a good military wife. I just no I would seriously tick off the commander's wife for certain.

 

But, I do get that sometimes there is extreme pressure to attend a non command event. Hence the evening gown in my closet because every once in a blue moon, I get stuck with that duty for dh's work. I used to love to dress up but because I'm a couple sizes smaller on top than my hip size, finding gowns that fit and don't have to be torn completely apart, altered, and put back together only to have them NOT drape right - my post baby body has really needed some time on Mars away from so much gravity - that I don't enjoy it anymore and never feel like I look good even when I do look good which makes me want to grab his boss by the throat and shake him, when instead I smile and act like I want to be there and think I look fine in my evening gown.

 

Women can.not.catch.a.break.ever.

 

I want it to be okay for women to wear tuxedos. Seriously, I think I have a better shot of pulling that off than female garb!

[Mrs Mungo]

If 500 people look one way and one person looks another way, does it reflect badly on the event??

In the case of the no underwear/unlined dress incident, you could seriously see everything on the woman. And your boss will talk to you about it because they don't want what you are wearing to reflect badly upon them with their boss or their boss's boss.

[FaithManor]

No, I've never been to a ball with young soldiers but I've been to plenty of fancy lawyer gigs. Yes, there is always some woman who has bought the lie that more skin always equals more sexy. Or maybe she just likes that look. Who knows?? I have no idea how a dress code could ever cover every situation. "Don't show thigh"?? What does it matter to the other adults in the room if Suzy Showoff shows her thigh?? If 500 people look one way and one person looks another way, does it reflect badly on the event??

I can tell you what does reflect badly at the marine ball...the young new bride of a lowly new private who decided that her beautiful, but demur (no train) chiffon wedding gown would make a perfect evening gown so why bother buying a new one even though it looks like a wedding gown, and she was clearly bridish in presentation and definitely getting more looks than the commander's wife who showed up in a red carpet gown ready for the Oscars, ala Cate Blanchett good taste. You do not, as the lowly private's wife, get the spotlight. You just don't.

 

(Not me...a former piano student of mine whose poor hubby ended up getting quite the verbal abuse the next day from his commanding officer.)

 

The next time she went in a simple, but attractive plain black gown with a simple necklace and nothing to draw attention. She got the nice nod from her husband's commander.

 

Some military posts have a pecking order for the spouses. It's important to figure out where you are in the pecking order, LOL!

[Reefgazer]

It's not like this everywhere/always.  I've been a military officer's wife for 20 years (well, he just retired recently), and I never felt pressured to partake in mandatory fun.  But maybe that's because I am happy to participate in any fun.  At any rate, I am quite obviously unconventional in many ways, and it seems not to have affected my DH's job, promotions, or my place in the entire show.

Hats off to you Mrs. Mungo for the crap you put up with on behalf of this country! I don't think I would make a good military wife. I just no I would seriously tick off the commander's wife for certain.

 

But, I do get that sometimes there is extreme pressure to attend a non command event. Hence the evening gown in my closet because every once in a blue moon, I get stuck with that duty for dh's work. I used to love to dress up but because I'm a couple sizes smaller on top than my hip size, finding gowns that fit and don't have to be torn completely apart, altered, and put back together only to have them NOT drape right - my post baby body has really needed some time on Mars away from so much gravity - that I don't enjoy it anymore and never feel like I look good even when I do look good which makes me want to grab his boss by the throat and shake him, when instead I smile and act like I want to be there and think I look fine in my evening gown.

 

Women can.not.catch.a.break.ever.

 

I want it to be okay for women to wear tuxedos. Seriously, I think I have a better shot of pulling that off than female garb!

 

[Mrs Mungo]

I can tell you what does reflect badly at the marine ball...the young new bride of a lowly new private who decided that her beautiful, but demur (no train) chiffon wedding gown would make a perfect evening gown so why bother buying a new one even though it looks like a wedding gown, and she was clearly bridish in presentation and definitely getting more looks than the commander's wife who showed up in a red carpet gown ready for the Oscars, ala Cate Blanchett good taste. You do not, as the lowly private's wife, get the spotlight. You just don't.

 

(Not me...a former piano student of mine whose poor hubby ended up getting quite the verbal abuse the next day from his commanding officer.)

 

The next time she went in a simple, but attractive plain black gown with a simple necklace and nothing to draw attention. She got the nice nod from her husband's commander.

 

Some military posts have a pecking order for the spouses. It's important to figure out where you are in the pecking order, LOL!

Wow, that is a little crazy. I haven't heard a story like that before! It has been more my experience that the younger wives steal the show looks-wise, why wouldn't they!? I am over 40 and have 3 kids, one of whom is an adult! I can't work it like I used to, lol!! Still, there are definitely spoken and unspoken expectations in every unit and in every location that can be difficult to navigate.

 

You should see some of the crazy attire suggestions I see here in Hawaii. It winds up causing a lot of confusion and a very mixed bag of attire. We attended one function with such a weird dress code that people were wearing everything from floor-length ball gowns to shorts. I had enough experience that I landed right in the middle, whew!

[FaithManor]

 I'm so glad my son never wanted to attend a homeschool prom. It sounds like a bunch of uptight and whiny people. As much slut shaming that was shown in the comment sections, I still bet over half the kids there thanked their hosts, got in their cars, and went off to get drunk and have sex. Religious based or not, they're having sex, no matter what they tell their parents.

:lol:  :lol: :lol: Hate to say it but probably true. The local Christian school had a "spring fling" once which is code for "get dressed up like the prom in extremely conservative but otherwise prom ish looking clothes and pay a LOT of money for really not all that great food cooked by the kitchen committee, and listen to a special speaker, and hear a Christian singer sing some songs, and whatever you do there won't be any dancing nor can you be very loud, nor can the girls sit with the boys, and when you are allowed to intermingle you must be 12" from any member of the opposite gender in a very crowded room so even when we say you can mingle, probably you should just sit at your gender segregated tables anyway". (I'm not making that up. My mom was appalled when a boy from the school asked my sister to attend and brought the rules sheet with him, needless to say my sister did not attend.) 

 

The organizers didn't know that when they let out at 10:00 p.m. (no time was specified on the invitation for the end of the program) many of their finest, bestest, shiniest students went to a dance club in Flint. While I cannot prove it, I suspect that motel rooms may have been rented because there were three shot gun weddings later in the summer from graduating seniors at the school and that would be about the right time for the necessity of a shot gun wedding to occur.

 

Again, outward conformity really means nothing. Not.one.thing.

 

500 students attended this "prom". Yup, somebody who wore the right clothes, and talked the right talk, and danced the nice dance, had a make-out site or motel room on the agenda for later in the evening. Any of the organizers who think otherwise really need to take a good hard look at statistics and reality.  Off topic, but true.

[FaithManor]

Mrs. Mungo, here is a wedding dress similar to hers. Very similar and the same designer but she married about six years ago so there is a difference. She had some lavender beading down the front and no dart in the dress...I think it was simply gathered onto the bodice. She did her hair about the same way.

 

http://www.natural-forces.com/wedding/images/costumes/anjolique1.jpg

[TeacherZee]

Clearly none of you have been to an RAF ball where the flight lieutenant was a true Scotsman ;)

 

Formal events where you could see the boys *junk* and we girls had or cover our shoulders.

[FaithManor]

:lol:  :lol:  :lol:

Clearly none of you have been to an RAF ball where the flight lieutenant was a true Scotsman ;)

Formal events where you could see the boys *junk* and we girls had or cover our shoulders.

Well, that's a sight for sore eyes!