Tell me about Heaven is For Real

[Moxie]

My DD11 read it for a bookclub and now they are seeing the movie. Mothers are encouraged to attend. I know nothing about this story but I am a HUGE sceptic. Am I wrong?? From a theological POV, how does one enter and exit Heaven? Am I a terrible mother if I skip the movie??

[PeachyDoodle]

I read it, and I have to say that, while it sounded nice, I thought it was all a bunch of hooey. The descriptions in no way match the biblical depictions of heaven. If I attended, it would be in order to have a discussion with my dd about what she'd read. Just my two cents.

 

I don't know what your theological perspective is, but I thought this article by Phil Johnson at Grace to You was good: The Burpo-Malarkey Doctrine.

[Pawz4me]

I know little to nothing about the book or the movie, so take this FWIW --

 

The pastor of our former church (Southern Baptist) sent out an e-mail stating that he could not recommend that anyone see the movie because of the flaws in theology.

[goldberry]

I read it, and I have to say that, while it sounded nice, I thought it was all a bunch of hooey. The descriptions in no way match the biblical depictions of heaven. If I attended, it would be in order to have a discussion with my dd about what she'd read. Just my two cents.

 

I don't know what your theological perspective is, but I thought this article by Phil Johnson at Grace to You was good: The Burpo-Malarkey Doctrine.

 

That's a good article.  I'm relieved to see this put out there, as I don't believe any of the story, but felt somewhat guilty for it,  like I was kicking a 4-year olds dreams in the dirt.

[PeachyDoodle]

That's a good article.  I'm relieved to see this put out there, as I don't believe any of the story, but felt somewhat guilty for it,  like I was kicking a 4-year olds dreams in the dirt.

 

I know exactly what you mean. To make things worse, I read it not too long after losing my 19yo sister in a car accident. I REALLY wanted to believe it. But I just... can't.

 

[freeindeed]

Thank you for starting this thread. I am in the minority around here IRL, but I don't believe one can enter into Heaven and then return to earth. My hubby and dd13 and ds11 went to see the movie, but I stayed home with dd6. I have no desire to read the book or see the movie.

[Guest]

My DD11 read it for a bookclub and now they are seeing the movie. Mothers are encouraged to attend. I know nothing about this story but I am a HUGE sceptic. Am I wrong?? From a theological POV, how does one enter and exit Heaven? Am I a terrible mother if I skip the movie??

Interesting. My DD read it with book club at her school and they just went today to see the movie!

 

I have not seen the movie, but I read the book. I thought some things were touching and did believe the boy had a supernatural experience, but there were other parts of the story that I did not believe. I think the boy added on some dreams or thoughts onto his original experience such that some were authentic and others not.

[Guest submarines]

My DD11 read it for a bookclub and now they are seeing the movie. Mothers are encouraged to attend. I know nothing about this story but I am a HUGE sceptic. Am I wrong?? From a theological POV, how does one enter and exit Heaven? Am I a terrible mother if I skip the movie??

 

Personal beliefs aside, this is a controversial and potentially spiritually confusing and overwhelming (if not damaging) book for an 11 year old. I wouldn't want my 11 yo to read it without serious guidance and discussions. I think not only you shouldn't skip the movie, but you should also read the book so that you can discus it with your DD, especially when she is at the age when she is potentially starting to form her own ideas about the religion.

[ThisIsTheDay]

Personal beliefs aside, this is a controversial and potentially spiritually confusing and overwhelming (if not damaging) book for an 11 year old. I wouldn't want my 11 yo to read it without serious guidance and discussions. I think not only you shouldn't skip the movie, but you should also read the book so that you can discus it with your DD, especially when she is at the age when she is potentially starting to form her own ideas about the religion.

 

:iagree:  Yes, this.  I've read both the Burpo book and the Malarky book (referenced in the article linked above; good article, btw).  It seemed that the dad was really pushing the boy in Heaven Is for Real.  I found the Malarky book much more believable, not that it necessarily happened, but that the boy believed that it happened.  Regardless, I agree, I would not find it an appropriate book for my child to read led by someone else, and I would not be thrilled at the idea of celebrating the book by going to see the movie.  I wouldn't keep my child home, but I'd plan something else fun to do with my kid.

[JustEm]

 There are accounts of God revealing parts of Heaven to some of the saints, whether He allowed them to enter Heaven during these revelations I'm not sure.  Saint Catherine of Siena is a prime example of this.  During her mystical experiences God revealed much of what Heaven is like to her.  So it isn't impossible for God to reveal Heaven to someone still living.

 

That being said, one should be extraordinarily cautious when trying to interpret supposed spiritual experiences.  The experience could be from God and misinterpreted, it could be from a demonic presence or simply your subconscious protecting you from some sort of fear.  I find it likely that a 4 year old was extremely scared of a surgery and that his parents comforted him by saying something along the lines of God will keep you safe.  And his imagination ran wild after that. But it is also possible that he did experience something Heavenly.  Maybe he saw his guardian angel or its presence was so strong it left an impact on his brain that create this story.  No one knows.  

[marbel]

If you are a huge skeptic then it seems you should go so you can help your daughter process it.  She shouldn't see it in a vacuum, or with a bunch of other people who believe it's all true.   I don't think I'd want even my teens to read/watch it without my husband and I also having read/watched it so we can talk about it. 

[Moxie]

Here is another issue--the book club is led by my best friend. She buys into this stuff whole hog and she knows how I feel about it. She told me that if I do go to the movie I have to be "nice" about it. So, we have a book club where real discussion isn't allowed?!?

 

I get why she is doing this. Her own daughter is having faith issues so I'm sure she is hoping that this will encourage her daughter and she doesn't want me messing that up. Very frustrating though.

[JustEm]

Here is another issue--the book club is led by my best friend. She buys into this stuff whole hog and she knows how I feel about it. She told me that if I do go to the movie I have to be "nice" about it. So, we have a book club where real discussion isn't allowed?!?

 

I get why she is doing this. Her own daughter is having faith issues so I'm sure she is hoping that this will encourage her daughter and she doesn't want me messing that up. Very frustrating though.

In that case, I would not attend the movie and I wouldn't allow my dd to either.  If a balanced discussion on the book and movie can not happen then what is the point of the book club?  Is it to simply so your best friend can impart her beliefs onto others, specifically her daughters?  

[Erin]

Good friends of ours have been members of this church since before Colton's experience. (The church was always really supportive, btw).

It was a real struggle whether or not they should share this. If nothing else, I think the Burpos completely believe what they've written... HIFR is written with a genuine heart.

[Rose in BC]

I like Tim Challies take on many issues. Here is his view on the book:

 

http://www.challies.com/book-reviews/heaven-is-for-real

[creekland]

We'll be seeing the movie this Sunday (most likely) due to my son wanting to... due to many of his friends at school having seen it and talking about it.  With all of these near-death experiences I find them interesting to listen to and ponder, but not necessarily gospel truth.

 

I expect we'll have some decent conversation after the movie - going wherever any of us are led (pro/con/whatever).  Nothing has ever been off the table discussion-wise in our family.

 

The only movies I refuse to watch are Horror or Teen/Adult (crude) humor.  If my guys want to watch others for some reason or another - why not?

[Butter]

I never really thought about it until reading some of these comments, but I had an experience when I was 16 and so, based on what happened to me and what I remember, I wouldn't think you can go into heaven and return to earth.  Interesting.

 

I've never read this particular book, but I will say my uncle read it and loved it.  He grew up Catholic, but hadn't been to church in decades.  I think it helped a little, comforted him, as he was dying and terrified.

[marbel]

Here is another issue--the book club is led by my best friend. She buys into this stuff whole hog and she knows how I feel about it. She told me that if I do go to the movie I have to be "nice" about it. So, we have a book club where real discussion isn't allowed?!?

 

I get why she is doing this. Her own daughter is having faith issues so I'm sure she is hoping that this will encourage her daughter and she doesn't want me messing that up. Very frustrating though.

 

Said gently... you are skeptical about the premise of the book, but you are letting your daughter read it and see the movie under the direction of someone who "buys into this stuff whole hog?"  You need to read the book and discuss it with your daughter.    You should either keep your daughter out of the movie or go with the group.  Or, since discussion/disagreement isn't allowed, take your daughter on your own so you can talk about it with  her.

 

I would also think about my daughter's ongoing involvement in the group. 

 

Sorry if I sound harsh.  I don't mean to at all.  I'm just kind of stunned by a book club for youngish kids studying such a controversial book with no disagreement/alternate viewpoint allowed.  The mother should deal with her daughter's struggles without pulling in other kids.

[Ottakee]

Our pastor is a good friend of this family---grew up together, same church, etc. and he has the same take on it.  Personally I am not totally sure but haven't read the book in its entirety or seen the movie so I don't have an educated opinion.

Good friends of ours have been members of this church since before Colton's experience. (The church was always really supportive, btw).
It was a real struggle whether or not they should share this. If nothing else, I think the Burpos completely believe what they've written... HIFR is written with a genuine heart.

 

[Ottakee]

Thank you for starting this thread. I am in the minority around here IRL, but I don't believe one can enter into Heaven and then return to earth. My hubby and dd13 and ds11 went to see the movie, but I stayed home with dd6. I have no desire to read the book or see the movie.

 

I have not seen the movie or read the entire book but my question then is :

If you can't enter heaven and return------where was Lazarus before Christ brought him back from the dead?

[Laurie4b]

 There are accounts of God revealing parts of Heaven to some of the saints, whether He allowed them to enter Heaven during these revelations I'm not sure.  Saint Catherine of Siena is a prime example of this.  During her mystical experiences God revealed much of what Heaven is like to her.  So it isn't impossible for God to reveal Heaven to someone still living.

 

That being said, one should be extraordinarily cautious when trying to interpret supposed spiritual experiences.  The experience could be from God and misinterpreted, it could be from a demonic presence or simply your subconscious protecting you from some sort of fear.  I find it likely that a 4 year old was extremely scared of a surgery and that his parents comforted him by saying something along the lines of God will keep you safe.  And his imagination ran wild after that. But it is also possible that he did experience something Heavenly.  Maybe he saw his guardian angel or its presence was so strong it left an impact on his brain that create this story.  No one knows.  

There is also Paul's account in 2 Cor 12.

 

I am skeptically open-minded about the book. I think that the child did have some kind of genuine experience because he knew things he couldn't have known naturally;however, I think that got elaborated and expanded on and that he likely was led into that even if innocently and inadvertantly by parents and others.

[umsami]

Read the book and it is in much the same light as other NDEs.  Honestly, regardless of theology, the only people who can have any clue what death may be like are people who have died and come back to life.  Their experiences are extremely similar--and this includes children who would not have heard the typical NDE stories in their lifetime.

 

I find it disheartening that people who have not experienced death can judge those who have--and whose medical deaths have been verified.  One can also read about how people's lives have changed for the better after these experiences.  In my viewpoint, a loving God giving people a glimpse of heaven is not outside the realm of possibility, especially if it helps others with their faith or helps the viewer to live a kinder, more compassionate, love-filled life. From everything I've heard, the movie is a good film, well done.

[creekland]

Read the book and it is in much the same light as other NDEs.  Honestly, regardless of theology, the only people who can have any clue what death may be like are people who have died and come back to life.  Their experiences are extremely similar--and this includes children who would not have heard the typical NDE stories in their lifetime.

 

I find it disheartening that people who have not experienced death can judge those who have--and whose medical deaths have been verified.  One can also read about how people's lives have changed for the better after these experiences.  In my viewpoint, a loving God giving people a glimpse of heaven is not outside the realm of possibility, especially if it helps others with their faith or helps the viewer to live a kinder, more compassionate, love-filled life. From everything I've heard, the movie is a good film, well done.

 

:iagree:   I'm with you in beliefs about the subject.  I'll know what I think about the movie after Sunday (assuming all goes as planned).

[forty-two]

Here is another issue--the book club is led by my best friend. She buys into this stuff whole hog and she knows how I feel about it. She told me that if I do go to the movie I have to be "nice" about it. So, we have a book club where real discussion isn't allowed?!?

 

I get why she is doing this. Her own daughter is having faith issues so I'm sure she is hoping that this will encourage her daughter and she doesn't want me messing that up. Very frustrating though.

 

I'm open to the idea of near-death experiences being real in some sense, but I think they are a bad, bad, *bad* thing to base one's Christian faith on.  (I can't speak to whether they make a good foundation or help for other beliefs.)  They are subjective, hard to interpret, and can lead to people putting their faith in the *results* of salvation (a good afterlife) instead of the *cause* of salvation (Christ's death on the cross).  In Christianity, belief in heaven isn't what saves you.

 

Too often people feel like they can't be Christian because they have problems with things that *aren't* central to Christianity.  Heaven being real or not real, and what precisely it is like, is secondary.  Heck, belief that the Bible is the Word of God is secondary, too - it, like belief in heaven, is a *result* of saving faith, not a *cause* of saving faith.  Either God is trustworthy in His promises that He *can* and *has* saved us through Jesus - in which case we can rest assured that wherever we are going after this life, it will be with God and so will be a Good Thing, by definition . Or God is a liar and *can't* or *won't* save us, in which case the exact details of heaven are entirely beside the point if God can't/won't take us there.  And who cares whether the Bible is really the Word of God if God can't/won't keep the promises He makes in it.

 

I really like the book "Broken: 7 Rules That Every Christian Ought to Break as Often as Possible" - I think it does a fabulous job of stripping away all the false stuff we add on to "being a Christian", and shows the core of our faith: that Jesus Christ lived and died and rose again to save us from our sins. If *that* is true, it takes care of *everything* else; if that is *not* true, then there's no point to everything else.

[Hunter's Moon]

I have not seen the movie or read the entire book but my question then is :

If you can't enter heaven and return------where was Lazarus before Christ brought him back from the dead?

He was in the grave. Before Christ defeated death through His Ressurection, all were in the grave, or Hades, the realm of death.

[PeachyDoodle]

He was in the grave. Before Christ defeated death through His Ressurection, all were in the grave, or Hades, the realm of death.

 

Yes, this. And all the descriptions of heaven in the Bible come from visions, not NDEs. Paul was expressly forbidden to disclose what he saw there.

[KRG]

I read the book when it first came it.  I thoroughly enjoyed it.  I do not plan to see the movie.  I don't know if I am just in a different place or what but I am not interested in seeing it at all.

[scootiepie]

I am more skeptical of a Hollywood-ized version of anything Christian.   Even if the book were biblical (I'm not saying it is), by the time Hollywood got done with it, it wouldn't be.

 

Maybe one of these days I will be pleasantly surprised.   

[Seasider]

I am more skeptical of a Hollywood-ized version of anything Christian. Even if the book were biblical (I'm not saying it is), by the time Hollywood got done with it, it wouldn't be.

 

Maybe one of these days I will be pleasantly surprised.

At least with Hollywood, you know you have to view it through a certain filter. I think a movie purportedly by Christians is something we have to be even *more* careful with, as we (believers in general) may be less prone to use critical thinking skills as we view it.

 

While I think the writer's tone was rather harsh, I believe he made interesting points in this article:

 

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/slacktivist/2013/11/16/heaven-is-for-real-is-not-for-real/

[scootiepie]

Yep....agree with your point for sure.

[Slartibartfast]

I'm open to the idea of near-death experiences being real in some sense, but I think they are a bad, bad, *bad* thing to base one's Christian faith on.  (I can't speak to whether they make a good foundation or help for other beliefs.)  They are subjective, hard to interpret, and can lead to people putting their faith in the *results* of salvation (a good afterlife) instead of the *cause* of salvation (Christ's death on the cross).  In Christianity, belief in heaven isn't what saves you.

 

Too often people feel like they can't be Christian because they have problems with things that *aren't* central to Christianity.  Heaven being real or not real, and what precisely it is like, is secondary.  Heck, belief that the Bible is the Word of God is secondary, too - it, like belief in heaven, is a *result* of saving faith, not a *cause* of saving faith.  Either God is trustworthy in His promises that He *can* and *has* saved us through Jesus - in which case we can rest assured that wherever we are going after this life, it will be with God and so will be a Good Thing, by definition . Or God is a liar and *can't* or *won't* save us, in which case the exact details of heaven are entirely beside the point if God can't/won't take us there.  And who cares whether the Bible is really the Word of God if God can't/won't keep the promises He makes in it.

 

I really like the book "Broken: 7 Rules That Every Christian Ought to Break as Often as Possible" - I think it does a fabulous job of stripping away all the false stuff we add on to "being a Christian", and shows the core of our faith: that Jesus Christ lived and died and rose again to save us from our sins. If *that* is true, it takes care of *everything* else; if that is *not* true, then there's no point to everything else.

 

I agree. IMO it is a mistake to make things so legalistic.

 

I haven't read the book and don't plan on doing so but I don't place much stock in a preacher who thinks I am going to be placed in spiritual danger everytime I go to the movie.

 

If we are so fragile then we are little prepared for the blows that life can deal us. 

 

[Erin]

Well, we went to the movie last night...  
I was pleasantly surprised.  It stayed fairly close to the book, portrayed the principle people pretty accurately, and showed a fairly good representation of the community's response. But it was jarring each time they would pan out from the town because my mind would think, "Wow! Saskatchewan is flat!  How could anyone ever believe this is Imperial, Nebraska??"  lol

 

The storyline itself makes an interesting argument.  I read the book a number of years ago (like everyone else in this part of the world) and still don't know whether I take it at face value or not.  Fortunately, my salvation has very little to do with it so I'm OK with being uncertain about things like the validity of this book/movie.  

It made for interesting conversation that half hour home, though.  :)

[Laurie4b]

He was in the grave. Before Christ defeated death through His Ressurection, all were in the grave, or Hades, the realm of death.

What about Moses and Elijah in the Transfiguration? Or the parable of Lazarus and the rich man?

[Hunter's Moon]

What about Moses and Elijah in the Transfiguration? Or the parable of Lazarus and the rich man?

I'm on my phone at the moment, so I'll answer these when I get home as I would like to provide you with links as well.

[GSOchristie]

 

This video sums up what I think about the book and/or movie :).

[Hunter's Moon]

What about Moses and Elijah in the Transfiguration? Or the parable of Lazarus and the rich man?

 

I am actually going to bring this over to the Orthodox Social Group, as I do not want to derail the thread. 

[Erin]

Quick summary for those who see YouTubes and wonder if it's worth loading:

"Fanciful account...money to be made peddling fiction about the afterlife"

[sheryl]

Good friends of ours have been members of this church since before Colton's experience. (The church was always really supportive, btw).

It was a real struggle whether or not they should share this. If nothing else, I think the Burpos completely believe what they've written... HIFR is written with a genuine heart.

 

 

My dd's youth pastor is friends witht the Burpo's.    He spoke of a conversation he had with young Colton.

 

To others I say this: As a believer I am not going to limit God.  I do believe this boy's story.  There have been other cases as well, but not many.   

 

Why are some of you saying it's not Biblical? 

[sheryl]

Erin and Ottakee, I wonder if your friends know my dd's youth pastor...

[forty-two]

Why are some of you saying it's not Biblical?

I'm not saying it's definitively not Biblical, but I'm wary about visions and miracles (like gold dust manifestations), that for all the "Jesus did it!" attributions, don't actually point people to the Gospel. All the focus is on the awesomeness and real ness of *heaven*, like believing in heaven is how you get to heaven. Jesus is like an side note - cause of Jesus, we get to go to *heaven*. And we can be confident of this because a small child saw a vision of *heaven*. It's just, heaven's not the point, visions of heaven aren't the point, gold dust manifestations aren't the point - the point is Jesus' atoning death on the cross - and too often those "Biblical" visions and miracles take center stage and crowd out the very Biblical message of the Gospel that they are supposed to be "proof" of.

 

When a "Biblical" vision obscures the actual Gospel message of the Bible, that makes me very wary.

[sheryl]

I'm not saying it's definitively not Biblical, but I'm wary about visions and miracles (like gold dust manifestations), that for all the "Jesus did it!" attributions, don't actually point people to the Gospel. All the focus is on the awesomeness and real ness of *heaven*, like believing in heaven is how you get to heaven. Jesus is like an side note - cause of Jesus, we get to go to *heaven*. And we can be confident of this because a small child saw a vision of *heaven*. It's just, heaven's not the point, visions of heaven aren't the point, gold dust manifestations aren't the point - the point is Jesus' atoning death on the cross - and too often those "Biblical" visions and miracles take center stage and crowd out the very Biblical message of the Gospel that they are supposed to be "proof" of.

 

When a "Biblical" vision obscures the actual Gospel message of the Bible, that makes me very wary.

I think I get where you're coming from.  By all means, it's all about Jesus, period!   BUT, can any one of us limit "how" God reaches people?  If a person comes to know Messiah, Christ, Yeshua, Jesus b/c of a life to death to life experience, then why not?   God did not fashion man as cut-out cookies.  IOW,  He may work in person A's life this way and person B's life another way.  We know He says that He can take what was meant for bad and use it for good.  Well. He used Colton this way.  Maybe He would use a financial crisis to reach someone else.  He's God in "every" situation.  Were not all of the miracles different?

[ThisIsTheDay]

I read the book quite a while ago, and while it may have Jesus in it, it was not a believable story.  It could have been in the translation to the ghostwriter, whatever. I honestly don't remember how Biblical or not it was, because the boy's story was overshadowed, for me, by the way the boy's father continued to seem to push him into saying things. Everything was too pat, and it was not a believable book.  I don't think it was an intentional lie, rather wishful thinking on the part of the father. As I reader, that was the impression I had.

[Erin]

Erin and Ottakee, I wonder if your friends know my dd's youth pastor...

 

Possibly.  Has he ever attended/served in Imperial Weslyan?  My friends are actually a number of different people the longest(?) of whom helped *build* the church.   

 

 

PS:  I'm going to mention this conversation when I'm sitting in their fellowship hall tomorrow for our monthly homeschool group meeting.  I've never really picked anyone's brain before.  I know people are supportive of Burpos, but that doesn't necessarily mean they believe it to be true, KWIM?

[sheryl]

well, yes, I suppose one can have that position.  sure, to be supportive but not believe it.  i'm supportive and believe it and that was "before" knowing my dd's youth pastor and Burpos are friends.  i'll pm you.

[unfrumpable.]

I've not read the book and have zero desire to do so. Same for the movie. It seems to me another case of a parent trying to make money off of their child and God and neither of those concepts sit well with me. That's just my opinion though. :)

[creekland]

We didn't get around to watching it Sunday due to a more restrictive schedule with the IMAX theater (and needing to do that one on Sunday).  It's on our agenda for tonight.  Reading thoughts definitely has raised my interest level to see for myself.  ;)

 

I seriously doubt it's all a money making agenda.

[JadeOrchidSong]

 

 

I seriously doubt it's all a money making agenda.

I agree, Creekland. There are too many people, my close friend's father included, who have had Near Death Experience, for us to count it as simply "fanciful", "hallucination" and to claim anyone who publishes a book about it is simply trying to make money. There are undeniably some people out there trying to make money in all kinds of ways. For one story that is published about NDE, there may be many that are buried or not shared publicly in such a way. Dh was interested in NDE and read as many books as available in the library and I read a few, too. Most, if not all, of the NDE people are greatly impacted by their NDE, for better or for worse, though I would say mostly for better.

There are many things we human can not fully understand or explain, but it doesn't mean we should deny their existence and the powerful ways they change us, again for better or for worse.

Also, as a PP mentioned, God can not be limited to what we understand. He can touch hearts and lives in all kinds of ways just as everyone's journey to Faith is similar yet singular.

God can choose to use any method, NDE included, to speak a message to a person.

[gracesteacher]

This is Hank Hanagrff thoughts

http://www.equip.org/articles/heaven-real-heaven-real-really/

[gracesteacher]

http://www.equip.org/audio/boy-came-back-heaven-2/

This is what the mom from the other story shared

http://www.equip.org/articles/boy-came-back-heaven/

[creekland]

Saw it.  The movie was far more about the dad's struggle with figuring out how to deal with it than the son's actual trip to Heaven IMO.  There were a couple of discussion points in the movie (as there are in all movies IMO), but nothing that would make me tell anyone to avoid it.  Middle son tells me the book goes into far more detail about the trip to Heaven, so that could be different, but I have serious doubts that I'll ever read it as my "to read" queue is long enough as it is.

 

I remain as I always have.  God can use whatever He wants in a life.  My God has no boxes He needs to remain in.  I see NDEs (any of them) as a curiosity that can be fun to ponder, not a reflection of faith or definite fact.  To me, Heaven is real and pondering about it can be fun.