The Forum vs In Real Life

[MistyMountain]

In my area I go to some outings like family hikes with both homeschoolers and people with kids in public schools and I am joined in some local facebook groups. It seems that a lot of people who are homeschooling like unschooling, waldorf and really really relaxed schooling and those with kids in school like the Waldorf charter and the child led learning charters. My dd's school is a traditional school with high expectations and some classical like curriculum. Her school has a waiting list so obviously not everyone does but most of my crunchy friends are on the more unschooling, relaxed child led or waldorf spectrum rather than the classical or structured side.

 

I am not homeschooling at the moment although I am considering it for the future. If I was homeschooling I think there wouldn't be many eclectic but with some classically inspired aspects homeschoolers out there. I guess I would just talk about other others things other than curriculum or how I do things. The side that says oh don't worry about it let her be she is fine she doesn't need to know xyz is much more vocal and they aren't really looking for advice on ways to teach xyz. I don't mind hearing about the many many ways to do things here and about hearing what worked for others but there are other aspects of forums that probably lead to me worrying more.

[mamabear2three]

When I started my homeschool journey 2 years ago with prek, I walked around the local homeschool curriculum sale (used curriculum) and felt like I was a bit lost... which was surprising to me because I was homeschooled from 1st through 12th grade. I was trying to figure out the obsession with latin in particular... coming here and reading TWTM was a lightbulb moment for me. I enjoy coming here specifically because I often feel like I can barely hang on to the more philosophical conversations here and I like that it's always a challenge for me to keep learning!

[kristinannie]

In our area, there are two types of homeschoolers.  We have unschoolers and those who use either Abeka or Bob Jones.  I mostly get together with those families to give my kids friends to play with, but we don't really talk about curricula!  I have stopped talking about curricula with those in real life except for two of my friends that are mostly on the same page.

[MomintheMountains]

I must say that I am a bit perplexed by the disdain and low opinion for "IRL homeschoolers" in this thread. My dad taught at a university for a time and he and other professors I have spoken with have felt that former homeschoolers were the best students. It seems that most of you believe that most of the homeschoolers you have met are not very academically oriented. How do you know what goes on in their homes? Why do national statistics not bear this non-academic homeschooler trend out?

[Krystan]

I'm a forum person, and if I didn't also work as a nurse 24 hours a week, I would be on here all the time!  As it is, I don't post much, but do read a lot, and search here every time I'm considering a new purchase.  We live in a fairly secular, academically rigorous area, so pretty much all homeschoolers are book-hoarding curriculum junkies.  There are definitely the ones who go with one (usually religious) publisher for the duration, but most skip around to find what works for each child.  We're definitely on the more rigorous end of the spectrum, but even those who were unschool-y at younger ages are all coming around as we approach high school.  There are all types of homeschoolers around here, which is nice to get the different perspectives.

 

The wonderful things about this forum vs. asking IRL friends are: 1.Variety of opinion - there is just a huge amount of posters on this forum, all subscribing to the same basic "theory" of homeschooling; 2.Objectivity - no one has a preconceived notion of your kids and what they are/aren't capable of; 3.Non-threatening - it's hard to keep the competitiveness out of parents when discussing curriculum sometimes, especially math or something with distinct levels (don't even want to bring up that I'm looking for pre-algebra for my 5th grader as I'm afraid of offending people who have 8th graders in pre-algebra); 4.Honesty - I'm not worried about offending people with my opinions if they've just bought something I disliked.

 

The negatives of the forum: 1.Lots of tempting ideas of things to purchase!  2. Sucks up time like nobody's business.  Sometimes I come on here researching one thing and find myself with a list of six more things I want to check out!  Not necessarily a bad thing to have more choices, but...  All in all, would never make a new purchase without first checking out what you guys think!

[...................]

CC people stick to themselves and/or newbies they can invite to join.  

 

[ScoutTN]

I don't know any unschoolers or any homeschoolers who are not serious and diligent about teaching their kids. Nor do I know any who use all or even mostly Christian curricula, even though most of the homeschoolers I know are evangelical Christians.

I do know many who have read TWTM and who are somewhat classical in their approach. I know some who do CC and some who use Saxon math - they are not the same people. ALL of my irl homeschool friends love books!

 

I don't know many irl homeschoolers who read here much or who research and think and read like I do.

I love these boards and the ideas and information I have gotten here have shaped our homeschool in significant ways.

 

As others have said, the depth of experience, the intellectual acumen, the various world views, the knowledge of resources and the humor found in this community is something unique. :)

[8filltheheart]

I must say that I am a bit perplexed by the disdain and low opinion for "IRL homeschoolers" in this thread. My dad taught at a university for a time and he and other professors I have spoken with have felt that former homeschoolers were the best students. It seems that most of you believe that most of the homeschoolers you have met are not very academically oriented. How do you know what goes on in their homes? Why do national statistics not bear this non-academic homeschooler trend out?

For me, it isn't that I have a low opinion of them, but we have very different education objectives. The local community college and the local university are the main goals. It isn't that they don't have academic objectives, it is that their academic objectives are very different from my own.

 

I don't think I know more than 5 families IRL over 20 yrs of homeschooling that have had a child take an AP exam. Very few want to know or talk about the fact that not all math curricula are equal. If you mention something like repeating an algebra course with a more in-depth course, they respond why would I do that; alg is alg.

 

Most are really more aligned with your standard high school diploma track. It isn't that they are not teaching or don't care, it is simply that what our kids do for school is radically different.

 

Fwiw, doing standard track high school will still have the avg student beyond their avg peers. But, that doesn't mean that we have common academic views.

[CyndiLJ]

I have read this thread with great interest, and yet have struggled to post my own thoughts.

 

IRL, we live in a rural area where the local public schools are very low performing, yet no one else seems to see that.  I guess it has always been the norm around here to have only 29% of our 10th graders be proficient in math, 51% proficient in writing, 55% proficient in science...and brag about 75% being proficient in reading.  Personally, I am appalled at these figures every year, but have never found a single person who has expressed any sort of concern over these scores.  Knowing this, I guess it isn't much of a surprise that the majority of local homeschoolers I have met are also not academically very rigorous, with a few exceptions.  There is little variety in the curricula used, it is all largely religious, and there are relatively few hours spent each week on academic pursuits.

 

In comparison locally, we put in far more time on our school work, and clearly I can see I am expecting a lot more out of our kids in terms of strong fundamentals.

 

However, I come to these boards, and am often left feeling as if we are way, way behind everyone else here.  We are working with a wide variety of pretty serious special needs, and are doing so successfully, but we will never be at the academic level of many who post regularly here.  Our kids are dedicated, hard working students who are turning into incredibly well rounded learners that are intellectually curious and have already learned how to teach themselves.  But Latin will never happen, nor will standard versions of many of the "must read" classics, and heavy sciences just can't work for us as the language level needed for comprehension is just too high.

 

We don't fit in our community, because we "work too hard" and are doing a lot more than most (and definitely test higher, as well), and yet I don't find a fit here either, because it is too rigorous for what our particular situation will allow.

 

However, the forums here are incredibly helpful when I ask a question, and I have learned about much of the curriculum we use here as well.  I just wish we could find a homeschooling "home" either IRL or online that fit us, but I have long ago given up on that.  Sometimes it feels as if you can't be considered a "Serious Homeschooler" unless you are shooting for college or Ivy League, but I see us as quite serious homeschoolers who are shooting for a different sort of education that is more practical for our kids and their needs...but would be considered far too low for most here to view us as "serious", and it keeps me from posting as often as I otherwise might.

 

Now there, I have laid out all my personal insecurities for all the world to see! HAHA!

 

[8filltheheart]

Cindy,

 

I would never compare your SN learners' needs to accelerated learners' needs. I have kids that fit both categories and what I do with my accelerated kids in no way resembles what my SN ds did. He would have curled up and shut down from anxiety and stress if I had even thought of him taking paths similar to his siblings. Even our oldest dd, who is not SN, took a very avg path bc she is not as strong of a student as her siblings. All of us need to keep perspective and never lose sight of the real people in our home.

 

From my POV, that is not where I don't connect with most other homeschoolers I know IRL. It is more from the fact that what they teach, how they teach it, and what they use isn't analyzed beyond 1of 2 typical scenarios1-the box (seton, Abeka, etc) or going to a curriculum fair and buying the easiest to implement, open and go, low teacher involvement materials. That is 180 from how we do things. I don't really care what ps teaches. I don't do traditional school. Not one of my kids'education resembles a siblings. Their high school transcripts are all radically different. I love educational philosophy and theory. I love creating my kids' subjects. I enjoy talking about it, too.

 

It really is a simple as just bc 2 families have the same age kids, does that mean that interests, etc are going to mesh and friendships will form? Not really. Just bc families share something in common, in this case homeschooling, does not mean that they have any more in common than children's ages or family size or religious affiliation or any other generalization.

 

Since we moved here a yr ago, the 3 moms that I share the most in common with and spend the most time with are 1-a mom of a dyslexic and slow learner 6th grade dd and a quiet, introverted 4th grade ds (my youngest boy is 18 ;) ) 2-a mom with a dd in 12th grade ps who doesn't know if her dd will graduate on Sat bc she is failing alg 2 and she has to pass her final today in order to graduate and her dd's life goals at this pt are waitressing. She has 2 younger kids that she homeschools. And 3- a mom whose oldest just turned 10 and she loves educational philosophy. I really enjoy their friendships and all 3 have far more in common with me than someone who uses Seton or Abeka.

[Seeker of Schole]

I must say that I am a bit perplexed by the disdain and low opinion for "IRL homeschoolers" in this thread. My dad taught at a university for a time and he and other professors I have spoken with have felt that former homeschoolers were the best students. It seems that most of you believe that most of the homeschoolers you have met are not very academically oriented. How do you know what goes on in their homes? Why do national statistics not bear this non-academic homeschooler trend out?

 

I don't know that I'd call it disdain or low opinion. More a weariness of being the one that is the odd man out or is looked at oddly because I don't just use what they use. I, too, am a lover of educational philosophy. As such, we are clearly not following anything resembling a regular schooling path. Doing so does not make my opinion invalid, nor does it mean I need to be told to stop purchasing books.

 

As for what your father saw at university - I would say that is a specific example, just like many of the people posting here.

[Doodlebug]

I am floored by the lack of generosity toward other homeschoolers.

 

It's one thing to have different academic goals that force you into a smaller social circle. Its another to lump users of certain curricula/ programs into a less than complimentary category based on your own subjective study, and then hide behind "rigor" to justify it.

 

Mocking of certain homeschool programs has become perfectly respectable on this board, and it's getting old. We all make choices. Own yours, I'll own mine. But the mocking generalizations aren't helpful.

 

Stella

[8filltheheart]

I am floored by the lack of generosity toward other homeschoolers.

 

It's one thing to have different academic goals that force you into a smaller social circle. Its another to lump users of certain curricula/ programs into a less than complimentary category based on your own subjective study, and then hide behind "rigor" to justify it.

 

Mocking of certain homeschool programs has become perfectly respectable on this board, and it's getting old. We all make choices. Own yours, I'll own mine. But the mocking generalizations aren't helpful.

 

Stella

Which homeschool programs are mocked?   I havent seen mocking.   Discussions about the inherent weaknesses of any given curriculum is not mocking.

[creekland]

For me, it isn't that I have a low opinion of them, but we have very different education objectives. The local community college and the local university are the main goals. It isn't that they don't have academic objectives, it is that their academic objectives are very different from my own.

 

I don't think I know more than 5 families IRL over 20 yrs of homeschooling that have had a child take an AP exam. Very few want to know or talk about the fact that not all math curricula are equal. If you mention something like repeating an algebra course with a more in-depth course, they respond why would I do that; alg is alg.

 

Most are really more aligned with your standard high school diploma track. It isn't that they are not teaching or don't care, it is simply that what our kids do for school is radically different.

 

Fwiw, doing standard track high school will still have the avg student beyond their avg peers. But, that doesn't mean that we have common academic views.

 

With the exception of some really good high schools, local community colleges and local universities are the destination of the highest percentage of ps college bound kids too.  Across the board, top scoring kids on college tests are in the 1 - 5% (pending what one calls "top" scores.  Even using the 5%, there are 95% lower - and generally - those are just the college bound kids.  Many do not go to college at all.

 

I think the difference is that there are more kids in ps and many only hear about the very top (or maybe the very bottom), and then forget there are the majority that are under the bell curve in the middle.  Those students often don't take AP tests either - or don't score well on them if they do take them.

 

On this board I think we DO get more high performers, and more importantly, those performing up to "their" ability (something that can be missing from average public schools).  I found this board because I was looking for others who wanted "performers."  It is helpful to glean from others knowledge whether from parents of "high" performers or not.  As has been mentioned before, those who come and stay on this board tend to be those more interested in comparisons and finding good fits, etc.  Not everyone cares to do that.  There are many who just want to "get it done."

 

 

I must say that I am a bit perplexed by the disdain and low opinion for "IRL homeschoolers" in this thread. My dad taught at a university for a time and he and other professors I have spoken with have felt that former homeschoolers were the best students. It seems that most of you believe that most of the homeschoolers you have met are not very academically oriented. How do you know what goes on in their homes? Why do national statistics not bear this non-academic homeschooler trend out?

 

It is difficult to get national statistics of any kind regarding homeschoolers, but I have seen a few stats that show those who go to college tend to do better from a homeschooling background.  The problem is that's just a subset of the whole.  It matches what your dad has seen (and we've experienced with our college two), but doesn't eliminate the rest who aren't aiming for that level.

 

There were stats recently showing just 0.6% of freshman college students came from a homeschooling background.  Other stats I recall estimate there are 2% of the student population homeschooling.  What happens to all of those in the 1.4% not accounted for?

 

Scroll down to post #6 on this thread and I posted a lot of stats about college freshmen in general - or look at the link from the original link (click on the study) and see the stats for yourself.

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/513631-many-seniors-accepted-to-first-choice-colleges-go-elsewhere/

[...................]

People in my new area are very academic and very Godward focused at the same time.  It is a great local community.

[Crimson Wife]

There were stats recently showing just 0.6% of freshman college students came from a homeschooling background.  Other stats I recall estimate there are 2% of the student population homeschooling.  What happens to all of those in the 1.4% not accounted for?

A *LOT* of families HS K-8 and then use a B&M high school. So the percentage of high school students HSing is far lower than the percentage of elementary school students HSing.

 

If we choose to enroll our kids in private high school (an option we are seriously considering), then they wouldn't "count" in the statistics as HS graduates, even though they would've spent 9 out of 13 years as HSers.

[Penguin]

I don't know any IRL homeschoolers who are currently homeschooling. Seriously - not even one.  So I guess "this" (meaning this forum) is all that I know. 

[Doodlebug]

Which homeschool programs are mocked? I havent seen mocking. Discussions about the inherent weaknesses of any given curriculum is not mocking.

If comments were limited to the inherent weaknesses of any given curriculum, I wouldn't be griping. Generalizing about parents who choose a specific curriculum is ungracious.

 

I'm not going on a quote hunting expedition because I need to go weed.

 

Suffice to say I've chosen curricula based upon my son's needs, not the group best suited to my social needs. If Saxon and CC are the hallmarks of being a bumpkin, I'm the intellectual baby being thrown out with the bath water, and where does that leave me, an intelligent conversation loving mother? Depressed, I tell you.

 

Stella

 

ETA: it seems a post was removed? Well that makes my gripe seem a little crazy.

[creekland]

A *LOT* of families HS K-8 and then use a B&M high school. So the percentage of high school students HSing is far lower than the percentage of elementary school students HSing.

 

If we choose to enroll our kids in private high school (an option we are seriously considering), then they wouldn't "count" in the statistics as HS graduates, even though they would've spent 9 out of 13 years as HSers.

 

I just googled and my numbers were off.  This site seems to list the best stats:

 

http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d12/tables/dt12_040.asp

 

Supposedly, in 2007, 2.8% were homeschooled in grades 9-12.  Some of those could have later chosen B&M before graduation, of course, but I honestly doubt it's a significant percentage after 9th grade.

 

So, if 0.6% go on to be college freshmen, we are now talking about the other 2.2% - a much larger number than if my "recalled" percentage had been correct...

[abba12]

Something else to remember is that many of us are talking about people met through co-ops and stuff.

 

In my experience, the more academically minded homeschoolers also tend to have less association with specifically 'homeschool' functions. The more rigorous a family is, the less likely we are to see them at a local co-op because they have less time/other priorities/no problems just mixing with the general population of children. I don't attend any sort of homeschool group right now because it just doesn't fit my schedule but my daughter will be going to girls brigade soon, so I am harder to find by other homeschoolers. An academic homeschooler may send her child to scouts and swimming, a religious homeschooler is more likely to be vocal at church and send her kids to co-op, and a disinterested homeschooler may well do neither.

 

Academic homeschoolers also tend to be stricter with discipline or just have mature kids. Either way, I know that the only other semi-academic family I know will have nothing to do with the local homeschool group after a certain 'incident' two years ago that I believe still upsets their daughter. Their kids socialize a LOT with the neighbors, other church kids, relatives, and I think they do swim lessons, but they are isolated from most of the local homeschoolers.

 

Regarding the inconsistency that homeschooled kids are more successful at college, remember that non-academic homeschooled kids are much less likely to attend college. They just have other goals and aims. So the sample group at college is only a subgroup of homeschooling, those who actually put college as a high goal and succeeded, not a representation of homeschooling as a whole.

[Leav97]

...

 

The days of Abeka and BJU (and Calvert) may have been much easier at times then these hundreds of choices.  

 

Abeka is still very popular here.  At least judging by the for sale ads on the local web site.  

 

If you are a new homeschooling parent and you attend a local meeting to learn about homeschooling, your going to hear what everyone is using in your area.  And probably give it a try.  Unless it's a total bomb you'll keep using it.  A lot of the people I talk to local don't seem to realize the market has changed in the last 20 year.  They don't even recognize the names of anything I use.  They get all of their advice from people who started homeschooling 20+ years ago. And it works for them.  There is something to be said for using a product that is tried and true.

[Leav97]

I must say that I am a bit perplexed by the disdain and low opinion for "IRL homeschoolers" in this thread. My dad taught at a university for a time and he and other professors I have spoken with have felt that former homeschoolers were the best students. It seems that most of you believe that most of the homeschoolers you have met are not very academically oriented. How do you know what goes on in their homes? Why do national statistics not bear this non-academic homeschooler trend out?

 

Because national statistics are only based off self selected homeschoolers.  How many homeschools that are multiple grades behind are volunteering their test information?

[mprez]

I'm part of a homeschooling FB group in our area. The group is very helpful in answering procedural questions and support. In terms of content and materials, we differ because of our reasons for HSling. For most, it's either religion or health. In my case, I am not satisfied with the education provided by the school. I had a Jesuit education and taught history, philosophy, theory and area studies in the university. I would like DD to have the same education but since we live abroad and move regularly, I have to teach her myself. I use a curriculum like the other homeschoolers I know IRL, I supplement most of it with materials I think will suit our needs.

[Sahamamama]

I must say that I am a bit perplexed by the disdain and low opinion for "IRL homeschoolers" in this thread. My dad taught at a university for a time and he and other professors I have spoken with have felt that former homeschoolers were the best students. It seems that most of you believe that most of the homeschoolers you have met are not very academically oriented. How do you know what goes on in their homes? Why do national statistics not bear this non-academic homeschooler trend out?

 

One possibility is that homeschoolers with a strong academic focus aim at and achieve college admission, while those less academically-minded do not? I don't know, just that I've heard some of the unschoolers and nonschoolers in my area voice the same distaste for college as they do for curricula. So, it's possible that the university professors don't see much of the non-academic HS population. ??

 

[Mom-ninja.]

I hear you.  The wealth of choices and exploring them all has almost turned into a hobby for me.  I think the biggest freak out (internally, of course) I had was when I bought Math Mammoth.  Was it the right choice?  Was it going to work for my kids?  OH MY GOSH it is not in the Well Trained Mind and has not been approved by SWB in print!

I was once questioning (okay, obsessing) about choosing between curricula. After the 100th time going over the likes/dislikes of each program aloud to my dh he said, "What would SWB do?" then offered to get me a bracelet with the acronym WWSWBD. 

[Guest]

I don't have anyone IRL to talk curricula with either.

 

I'm very hopeful about the current configuration of our local group, but I have seen all the dramas and controversies the national scene has survived over the last 20ish years play itself out on the local level and I'm just not up for whacking any more hornets" nests with sticks. I already know what happens.

 

I have found my "happy place" where my issues with curricula are tolerated and, if not understood, at least treated with compassion. It's actually helped my wallet quite a bit, since I can share my delight at finding shiny collectibles I longed for when I couldn't afford them every bit as freely as I can ask honest questions about the best tools for the issues my modern K'er is actually dealing with at the present moment.

 

I'm an odd duck, but odd ducks are accepted here.

[*Lulu*]

I will say, most of the homeschoolers I know IRL aren't so different from me. Everyone is unique, of course, but I don't know that many people doing box programs and I don't know many CC'ers (they keep to themselves, I think). Everyone I know loves to read. While different people have different goals with education and different paces they're aiming for, everyone I know values learning in a deep way. I would actually say the number one difference between the Hive and real life for me is the fluency with having the vocabulary to talk about educational philosophies, educational methods, specific curricula, and specific schools of thought about education. This is not to say that my IRL friends don't think about these things, but it starts from a different place in terms of vocabulary usually.

This is true for the IRL homeschoolers I run with. Although, we are a small group and found each other through being on the outside of the local organized homeschool groups.

[Mrs Twain]

I am very thankful for this forum. Besides dh, I have no one IRL to talk to about curriculum or argue with about educational philosophies. Where else in the world can one solicit opinions about Apples and Pears Spelling, or Dolciani vs AoPS, or which Dolciani version is superior, or Maxwell's School Composition vs Wariner's Composition Models and Exercises vs The Lively Art of Writing? I gave up talking about curriculum with IRL people a long time ago.

[AMJ]

There are so many faith-based, we-only-socialize-with-people-who-believe-what-we-do (talking very narrow slices of Christianity here) people around here it's hard to find IRL people with whom to get together.  We have made friends (to a starting-out degree) with another homeschool family from Aikido class.  I think we both pussyfooted around each other for quite some time, both leary of "offending" the religious sensibilities of each other, until the other family took the plunge and invited us over for a birthday party.  We went, discovered that we were among the select few invited (not a general invitation to all in Aikido as I had thought), and got to know each other better.  Both families are shy, but we are looking forward to more gatherings as our kids' birthdays approach.  It turns out we both like and love a lot of the same things.  We even have similar furniture in our houses!

 

The convention held locally each year draws attendees from around TX and the surrounding states, but I'm not planning on attending anymore.  I attended lectures last year and some of those were somewhat helpful, but for the most part the advice and commentary I get here is a LOT more helpful, and I don't have to put up with crowds, paid parking blocks away, expensive food options, and the vendor fair having few things I actually want to see.

[angela in ohio]

I must say that I am a bit perplexed by the disdain and low opinion for "IRL homeschoolers" in this thread. My dad taught at a university for a time and he and other professors I have spoken with have felt that former homeschoolers were the best students. It seems that most of you believe that most of the homeschoolers you have met are not very academically oriented. How do you know what goes on in their homes? Why do national statistics not bear this non-academic homeschooler trend out?

 

I agree with Sahamamama; it is because a university professor will only see homeschoolers who were preparing for a university setting. I have met many, many homeschoolers over my dozen years doing this. I know exactly what goes on in many of their homes, either because I taught their dc in classes or because I helped them choose curriculum or because we had long talks about their educational choices. My experience holds up what is being shared here. A local homeschool group just had a post on its FB page to an article about what a giant waste college is, as a matter of fact. :D

 

There are NO valid national statistics on homeschooling. There are surveys of BJU packaged curriculum users who chose to take standardized testing. There are surveys of those homeschoolers who chose to register in this state or that. There are averages of those homeschoolers who chose to have their dc take the ACT or SAT. The dirty little secret is that every statistic you see touted for the success of homeschooling academically is based on a self-selected group of academic homeschoolers, but everyone claims those numbers in defense of homeschoolers, even those with hostility for those who were surveyed. ;)

[silver]

Most of my IRL friends that homeschool are not researchers. They went to one HS convention, walked around the vendor hall, found their curriculum, and make it work for their families. They're probably happier for it than my (over) researching self, as they aren't constantly asking themselves, "Is this the best choice?"

The one friend IRL that is a researcher is nice in that I can ask her about various curriculum and she's almost always heard of it and in some cases owns it (she's a curriculum junkie). But we differ on philosophy and teaching style and what her kids thrive on would make my kids cry, so there isn't much common ground beyond both of us being researchers.

[Woodland Mist Academy]

We recently moved from a state that gave a few options for showing progress. With few exceptions, only the people whose children were "good test takers" or "tested well" chose the testing option. The homeschool testing results in that state wouldn't have much value in terms of giving info about the progress of all homeschoolers.

[8filltheheart]

I agree with Sahamamama; it is because a university professor will only see homeschoolers who were preparing for a university setting. I have met many, many homeschoolers over my dozen years doing this. I know exactly what goes on in many of their homes, either because I taught their dc in classes or because I helped them choose curriculum or because we had long talks about their educational choices. My experience holds up what is being shared here. A local homeschool group just had a post on its FB page to an article about what a giant waste college is, as a matter of fact. :D

 

There are NO valid national statistics on homeschooling. There are surveys of BJU packaged curriculum users who chose to take standardized testing. There are surveys of those homeschoolers who chose to register in this state or that. There are averages of those homeschoolers who chose to have their dc take the ACT or SAT. The dirty little secret is that every statistic you see touted for the success of homeschooling academically is based on a self-selected group of academic homeschoolers, but everyone claims those numbers in defense of homeschoolers, even those with hostility for those who were surveyed. ;)

 

FWIW, while it is only the rare homeschooler that I have encountered that shares my passion for researching materials and developing classes that are far outside the norm of typical high school sequence, that observation is not the same as saying that they are not providing their kids with an education equivalent or superior to the local avg ps student on the standard diploma path.   I would say almost every homeschooler I have met is most definitely pursuing that as an objective.   Not all have college as an objective, but finishing a solid avg high school education is.  

 

Where I see the main difference is what defines high school education and general vs. individualized educational objectives.

[regentrude]

A local homeschool group just had a post on its FB page to an article about what a giant waste college is, as a matter of fact. 

 

This seems to be the attitude in a large portion of the homeschoolers I know locally. It is one thing to state that college is not for every student - I wholeheartedly agree. It is a completely different thing to belittle college as a waste of time and money and to downplay the role of formal education in today's world.

 

[angela in ohio]

...that observation is not the same as saying that they are not providing their kids with an education equivalent or superior to the local avg ps student on the standard diploma path.   I would say almost every homeschooler I have met is most definitely pursuing that as an objective.   Not all have college as an objective, but finishing a solid avg high school education is. 

 

That hasn't been my experience with many (a third? half?) of the homeschoolers I know. I will just say I have met plenty of anti-learning folks, and I will leave it at that. :)

[Melissa in Australia]

well I like Saxon maths, and even more important I LOVE the solution manuals. :coolgleamA:

[Guest]

I still love/hate Saxon primary.

 

< cringe>

 

I have a copy of MM in case of emergency and ds isn't even compulsory attendance age in our state yet, so don't worry.

[8filltheheart]

That hasn't been my experience with many (a third? half?) of the homeschoolers I know. I will just say I have met plenty of anti-learning folks, and I will leave it at that. :)

I really don't think that I have met more than 1 homeschool family who was truly not attempting to meet the minimal criteria of something equivalent to a standard diploma. Standard diploma graduation requirements are pretty minimal in most states and do not equate with the requirements for an advanced or distinguished diploma. Meeting the criteria for a standard diploma in no way compares to what I want or expect from my high school students, but it does compare directly with what a lot of their ps peers are graduating.

 

When I see what classes some ps kids are taking (or not taking), it makes me step back and realize that what I think of as normal, really isn't normal at large and a standard diploma really is the sole goal for a lot of students.

[MomintheMountains]

What is a little funny about this thread is that my anecdotal story about my dad's perspective on homeschool students is dismissed because it is anectodal (it is) and because there are "no reliable statistics" about homeschoolers. Yet most of the disparaging posts about IRL homeschoolers start off something like "well, a third or a half, or most of the homeschoolers I know"- insert disparaging comment here. Most of the homeschoolers I know are academically minded and it would seem they are doing a much better job than the public schools.

[Dory]

I don't talk about curriculum very much with people I know IRL because our views are so different. Saxon has worked for some people and I have heard positive things about it on this board. I think I just had my fill growing up on it. Having to do it again with my kid would be overload (believe me I was crying at the thought of using it with my kids). You can find positives for almost any curriculum on this board, and negatives. I tend to read through things, find someone that is similar to me in other ways, and look into what has worked for them. Or, I look at curriculum and try to think through if it really lines up with my philosophies on learning or does it just look easy, flashy, or popular. Sometimes I lean towards something simply because so many people like it, not because it's what I truly believe we need.

 

I've heard lots of people mention that children are individuals and we need to teach them as such, but the teachers are individuals too. No two families are going to approach education the exact same way.

[regentrude]

What is a little funny about this thread is that my anecdotal story about my dad's perspective on homeschool students is dismissed because it is anectodal (it is) and because there are "no reliable statistics" about homeschoolers. Yet most of the disparaging posts about IRL homeschoolers start off something like "well, a third or a half, or most of the homeschoolers I know"- insert disparaging comment here. Most of the homeschoolers I know are academically minded and it would seem they are doing a much better job than the public schools.

 

I see a big difference between making a statement about homeschoolers in general (which is impossible since there are no statistics) and about homeschooles *WE* know IRL (which means a collection of personal experiences and hence andecdotal evidence.)

.

I have not seen anybody disparage homeschoolers in general. I have only read reports about personal observations, and have added my own observations about the homeschoolers *I* know IRL. The fact that *I* have not encountered any  academically minded homeschoolers IRL is not a claim that those do not exist - it is solely a report about my personal experience that I have not met any of them. I am not even drawing the conclusion that they do not exist in my town. I can, however, observe that the children of the homeschooling families I know are academically significantly behind their public school peers. That is not disparaging, it is simply stating a fact.

[kiwik]

We have established that there is much the same variety of people who home school as people who use B&m schools. Some people send kids to school and that is it, some people do the same with a package. Some people do the opposite in both cases. I see this more with medical stuff - some people listen to what the doctor says and some people spend a month researching. It has more to do with personality than anything else. I must admit I assumed people home schooled for academic reasons and was surprised when I found that wasn't necessarily the case. Lots of people are surprised by things I do too. I once worked in an environment where getting ahead financially was the prime motivating factor and I couldn't get it at all. I asked where the library was (I was new to town) and they asked why on earth I would want to know that.

[angela in ohio]

What is a little funny about this thread is that my anecdotal story about my dad's perspective on homeschool students is dismissed because it is anectodal (it is) and because there are "no reliable statistics" about homeschoolers. Yet most of the disparaging posts about IRL homeschoolers start off something like "well, a third or a half, or most of the homeschoolers I know"- insert disparaging comment here. Most of the homeschoolers I know are academically minded and it would seem they are doing a much better job than the public schools.

 

My first post was meant to answer the two questions you asked. I wasn't dismissing your dad's perspective, just explaining why it wouldn't mesh with others' experiences.

 

My second post wasn't disparaging the third or half who are choosing less than a standard state diploma equivalent high school path; it's just a fact that they disagree with the average requirements of the state schools and are choosing a different path that is not academic in nature, either for religious or philosophical reasons.

[ChrissySC]

I am still catching up on this thread, but on page 2, there was concern about the number being homsechooled through highschool.  Well, my first became extremely difficult due to a very strong personality and depression.  She approached me and asked to take the GED.  Without even a complete 10th-grade education, I was doubtful.  I let her.  She did not take any prep classes either.  She placed in the top 5% with her scores for that year.  Keep in mind that many of the students may very well being opting for early GED and continuing on to trade school, college, or blue-collar jobs.  My oldest is a pet groomer.  She went to grooming school. Not a college education, but a trade.

 

I would like to see the number of homeschoolers that take the GED early or are forced to take the GED in order to continue training in a trade or get a job (remember Amazon? the military?).  I know things have changed over the years, but this does change the numbers.

 

 

 

ETA:  I use a variety of resources, including ABeka(usually just LA) and BJU (science or math) as well as a dozen other things, including Saxon.  Resources aside, the IRL viewpoint is the consideration and reason for the post.  Our personal experiences ... and the reality sucks. I think we should spread out and start creating WTM homeschool groups!  I am not a classical purist, but I take education seriously.  (How many of you are in SC? LOL)

 

It is a 50/50 mix just as in the B&M schools.  You will have those that take academics seriously and have high aspirations and those that just want to get by and get out.

[happyWImom]

Without really knowing how many homeschoolers you are in contact with locally, I can't really say this definitively; however, I think the pool of people on these forums is probably much greater. When a question is asked, or a statement is made, about anything, the people who have a real interest one way or the other are the ones who respond. So, sometimes it appears that things are skewed one direction or the other. Read enough forums and enough responses, and it evens out quite a bit.

 

I really could not live happily without the community here. Certainly, I could not be as effective as a teacher. I have come to depend on the insight and opinions offered by many, many experienced people.

:iagree: Yes!  I was just thinking all of this last night, because we are going to do CC, and I made the mistake of trying to read a lot of the threads about it on here, specifically the "Does Anyone Think CC is Neither".  I was pondering the question why do the people I know love CC when it seems so many on here don't.  I came to your exact conclusion!  And, I decided that I would take it all under consideration and do what I think is best for our family, and that I won't really know until we try it for a year.  While I value all of the advice here, I also greatly value 2 of the mom's who I am close with and have known for years who do CC and who also know my dc.  I took all of that input, prayed, and received my answer.

[Mrs Twain]

Personally, I wouldn't lump CC people in with non-academic homeschoolers. My IRL CC'er acquaintances are the most rigorous homeschoolers I have met. Half of the tutors in our CC have undergrad or graduate STEM degrees, and their kids are planning to go into engineering or military academies.

[lea_lpz]

Personally, I wouldn't lump CC people in with non-academic homeschoolers. My IRL CC'er acquaintances are the most rigorous homeschoolers I have met. Half of the tutors in our CC have undergrad or graduate STEM degrees, and their kids are planning to go into engineering or military academies.

I contributed on this thread and said CC seemed to not be for us at this time, but.....I would agree that the women I know who are involved with CC have higher Ed degrees and are academically vigorous. I wouldn't say CC users are non academic homeschoolers.

[HS Mom in NC]

I must say that I am a bit perplexed by the disdain and low opinion for "IRL homeschoolers" in this thread. My dad taught at a university for a time and he and other professors I have spoken with have felt that former homeschoolers were the best students. It seems that most of you believe that most of the homeschoolers you have met are not very academically oriented. How do you know what goes on in their homes? Why do national statistics not bear this non-academic homeschooler trend out?

 

You may not have experience with homeschoolers who care little about academics, but some of us really have run into them.  Consider yourself lucky.

 

Here are actual direct quotes I have personally heard from actual conversations with people who have said that they aren't academically rigorous or they didn't bother looking much into homeschooling before starting out.

 

"We're raising saints, not scholars."

 

"We don't study history, it's irrelevant."

 

"What do you mean by Classical Education?  I"ve never heard of that.  We do Abeka."

 

" I picked Abeka because everyone I knew was doing it and if everyone's doing it, it must be for a good reason."

 

"We're going to homeschool because you can buy books with the answers in the back, so it won't be hard for us as parents."

 

"Our kids really need just consumer math, higher math is for kids going to college and our kids won't be going to college-it would just indoctrinate them into secular humanism."

 

Typically, homeschooolers who are considering college as an option are categorically more serious about academics than homeschoolers who openly state they don't want their kids to go to college-they want them to learn a trade.

 

  I also think there's a new element in the homeschooling community that assumes if you toss a textbook at a kid at the kitchen table, they'll win spelling bees just because they're homeschooled-just look at the research about homeschoolers!  They seem to think any idiot can homeschool and don't set high standards for themselves and their children. Their attitudes seem to focus on the location of homeschooling above all, not the opportunity homeschooling provides to customize an education to a child.  Those are two very different aspects of what people mean when they use the word "homeschooling."

 

This same element exists in the private schools and high performing public schools.  These seem to think that if they just fork over tuition to a private school or move to a better ps district, their child will automatically improve academically.  Since so many different factors affect academic outcome, they're being naive if they think the change in venue is a magic bullet. Sometimes yes, and sometimes, no.

[8filltheheart]

Personally, I wouldn't lump CC people in with non-academic homeschoolers. My IRL CC'er acquaintances are the most rigorous homeschoolers I have met. Half of the tutors in our CC have undergrad or graduate STEM degrees, and their kids are planning to go into engineering or military academies.

I contributed on this thread and said CC seemed to not be for us at this time, but.....I would agree that the women I know who are involved with CC have higher Ed degrees and are academically vigorous. I wouldn't say CC users are non academic homeschoolers.

I agree that I wouldn't classify CC families in the non-academic category, not at all. Simultaneously, I wouldn't classify them in the category of those seeking the highest academic rigor either. (For me, I see that category as those who are seeking higher levels of achievement like multiple AP/college level courses or multiple courses beyond single strand sequence courses or unusual independent studies) The CC approach seems completely on par with a solid standard/traditional high school college prep education.

[creekland]

You may not have experience with homeschoolers who care little about academics, but some of us really have run into them.  Consider yourself lucky.

 

Here are actual direct quotes I have personally heard from actual conversations with people ...

 

I think my all-time "favorite" was:

 

"Oh whenever we hit anything hard we just skip it and move on.  It can't be important."

 

That was told to me by the mom of 5th - 8th graders.  I found myself puzzled as to how anything at that level could be deemed hard, but then again, I work in our local high school, so perhaps I'm biased.