Ask an Orthodox Jew

[YaelAldrich]

Am I going to regret this? :p

 

I am happy to entertain questions on Orthodox Judaism (I have been at one time or another a Reform and Conservative Jew, and was part of a Reconstructionist congregation in formation for about 1 1/2 minutes (ha ha), so I can speak to those as well if the question requires.

 

Good luck to me!

Yael

 

ETA:  You other Orthodox Jews, come out of the woodwork and help me answer these questions.  You've already put away your Pesach dishes so there is no excuse! :D

[umsami]

How do Orthodox in general view Conservative or Reformed Jews?  The reason I ask is back when I was studying, I seem to remember that a "reformed" conversion wouldn't count in Israel, but I think Conservative might have.  Definitely Orthodox counted.   

[Ipsey]

Yay! I'm so glad you decided to do this, Yael. I was thinking of you on another thread. :)

I don't have a question right now, but I know I'll have some, probably when I'm on the verge of sleep.

 

(You have my favorite Biblical name, BTW. :))

[Xuzi]

Will Jews ever build another temple? Or is that kind of worship seen as no longer necessary, or not currently possible, or not currently required/commanded by God?

[Matryoshka]

Do Hassidic Jews come under Orthodox Judaism, or is that considered yet another thing (like Reform and Conservative are)?

 

And, I was on a ferry to the Statue of Liberty this weekend with a large group of Hassidic Jews (appeared to be a youth group outing inclusive of many handicapped individuals) - they seemed to be speaking Yiddish among themselves (I am guessing because I could make out some if it from speaking German).  I don't think I've ever heard Yiddish being spoken as a living language... is it still spoken widely in this community (if you know the answer...)?

[mommaduck]

Question:

 

• One comment I've been told and heard plenty of times: why would anyone want to become Jewish when Jews have xxx number of laws to follow and non-Jews only have the Noachide laws. Granted, Jewish determine what is and is not acceptable under Noachide laws. So, do Jews see Gentiles as not in need of a spiritual life, a church/synagogue, something more? Jews need more for their spiritual growth, but Gentiles don't?

Please don't take my question offensively, as it's not intended that way. It's just straight forward as I've presented it and I've been curious about it.

[Crimson Wife]

How do Orthodox Jews typically feel about Messianic Jews/Hebraic Christians?

[YaelAldrich]

How do Orthodox in general view Conservative or Reformed Jews?  The reason I ask is back when I was studying, I seem to remember that a "reformed" conversion wouldn't count in Israel, but I think Conservative might have.  Definitely Orthodox counted.   

 We view Conservative, Reform (not Reformed), Reconstructionist, Neo-Chassidic, Secular Humanist Jews, and Just Plain Old Jews as... Jews - they are welcome in Orthodox synagogues/services, homes and community spaces.  I feel their streams' philosophy as misguided as they thought that tradition could not survive, much less thrive in modern day society, but as we can see from the numbers, that isn't correct.   Orthodox Jews in terms of numbers and strength are growing in both Israel and the US/Canada; it isn't so in the rest of the world only because those Jews are fueling the aliyah (move to Israel to live) movement.  People like myself can keep kosher, keep Shabbos (the Sabbath) and all the other laws relevant to us in 614, 1214, and 2014.  

 

Converts are a different issue.  Much like citizenship, Jews don't take just anyone and not in a willy-nilly fashion.  The would be Jews have to follow the "rules"/halacha, like a naturalized citizen has to know a lot of information many native born citizens don't know at all.  They also have to be admitted into the "club" through three people who are capable of testifying about and ruling on their status and those people are rabbis. Those rabbis have ordination through an unbroken line of men about 2000 years old.  Non-Orthodox rabbis aren't in that chain, nor are the non-Orthodox converts asked to uphold a high level of observance.

 

They are allowed to make aliyah, but they are not allowed to marry in Israel (nor are people who have no religion in Israel other than Muslim, Christian, Jewish and I think Druze or people intermarrying; this is a holdover the Turkish rule in Israel before the English rule that was before the Jewish rule of today) nor are they able to be buried in a Jewish cemetery.  This is a sad situation in that there are many people who are neither here nor there (Many Russian emigres, people of mixed heritage).  I wish there was a current day solution and I think it will come soon.

[SeaConquest]

A timely thread on Yom HaShoah. Yasher Koach for doing this.

[YaelAldrich]

Will Jews ever build another temple? Or is that kind of worship seen as no longer necessary, or not currently possible, or not currently required/commanded by God?

 

We hope so very deeply.  We hope and pray for it multiple times a day in our general prayers, our prayers after eating bread, many of our Shabbos (Sabbath) songs and we even hope for it at the end of the Passover Seder (Next Year in Jerusalem -- it's not for the felafel! :P )

 

We know that with the Third Temple (may it be rebuilt speedily in our days!) there will come animal sacrifice for individual sins and for thanks to G-d, but will also come a complete and total peace for all the nations of the world.  All will come to recognize G-d as Creator and Sustainer and will come to worship as well.  

[Xuzi]

We hope so very deeply.  We hope and pray for it multiple times a day in our general prayers, our prayers after eating bread, many of our Shabbos (Sabbath) songs and we even hope for it at the end of the Passover Seder (Next Year in Jerusalem -- it's not for the felafel! :p )

 

We know that with the Third Temple (may it be rebuilt speedily in our days!) there will come animal sacrifice for individual sins and for thanks to G-d, but will also come a complete and total peace for all the nations of the world.  All will come to recognize G-d as Creator and Sustainer and will come to worship as well.  

Thanks. :) May I ask what would trigger the rebuilding? (I assume there's some reason there isn't a Third Temple yet) Do you believe it has to be built on the original site in Jerusalem? Or do certain people/events need to occur/be in place before it can be built?

 

Thank you for answering our questions. :)

[YaelAldrich]

Do Hassidic Jews come under Orthodox Judaism, or is that considered yet another thing (like Reform and Conservative are)?

 

And, I was on a ferry to the Statue of Liberty this weekend with a large group of Hassidic Jews (appeared to be a youth group outing inclusive of many handicapped individuals) - they seemed to be speaking Yiddish among themselves (I am guessing because I could make out some if it from speaking German).  I don't think I've ever heard Yiddish being spoken as a living language... is it still spoken widely in this community (if you know the answer...)?

Yes, Hassidic (Chassidic) Jews are a subset of Orthodoxy.  We have a lot more in common than it would seem.  About 90% of practice and law are the same for all Orthodox Jews no matter where they hail.  We may look vastly different, but underneath the garb we are one.

 

Yes, Yiddish is very much a living language amongst the Chassidic world (with differing pronunciations/accents depending their ancestry).  It makes me laugh to get mailings asking for money to help Yiddish stay alive -- it IS alive.  I don't speak much, but I would encourage my children to pick up more than I have as the Harvards of the Orthodox world (the top yeshivas in the US and Israel) still use it and so it will be helpful.

[HollyDay]

Such a cool thread!!!!  Thanks for starting it!!

 

 

 

[Xuzi]

Oh, and a bit of a silly question, but is there a reason for the curls some Jewish men wear in front of their ears? Is it just an old cultural tradition, or does it hold some religious significance?

[Ameena]

Was hoping someone would post this thread - I've got questions :)

 

What is the Jewish view of Messianic Judiaism?

 

Can someone explain the kosher dietary laws, in a nutshell? I have a friend who is Messianic Jewish & only eats kosher foods, But there are some foods with a Kosher symbol that they won't eat - like bread with L-Cystiene I think? Which makes no sense to me - kosher is kosher, right?

[YaelAldrich]

Question:

 

• One comment I've been told and heard plenty of times: why would anyone want to become Jewish when Jews have xxx number of laws to follow and non-Jews only have the Noachide laws. Granted, Jewish determine what is and is not acceptable under Noachide laws. So, do Jews see Gentiles as not in need of a spiritual life, a church/synagogue, something more? Jews need more for their spiritual growth, but Gentiles don't?

Please don't take my question offensively, as it's not intended that way. It's just straight forward as I've presented it and I've been curious about it.

 

Why would anyone want to become Jewish??!?!  Close yourself from so much in the world in terms of good food, good relationships, good experiences and so much more?  

 

Now, that said, I converted to Orthodox Judaism about 20 years ago.  Yes, I consider myself CRAY-CRAY.  But I also wouldn't want it any other way.

 

Noachides are true troopers in that they have little in the way of networks or communities unlike Orthodox Judaism.  You are right; there isn't so much for them.  Mostly because most Jews still primarily think of their own (due to the history of Jews among the Gentiles) and not about the fine and upstanding Noachides out there.  Now there are exceptions.  Some Chabads make a home for the Noachide population amongst their Jewish communities (like my friends the Ederys in Japan).  I wish we Jews were in a good enough place spiritually and  physically we could encourage their growth to a real community.

 

I think that the rebuilding of the Third Temple (may it be rebuilt swiftly and soon), will make this happen.

 

But in today's reality, people who are cray-cray enough will try to convert since there is so little for Noachides.  Some will succeed and some will not.  I wish them all the best.

[YaelAldrich]

Thanks. :) May I ask what would trigger the rebuilding? (I assume there's some reason there isn't a Third Temple yet) Do you believe it has to be built on the original site in Jerusalem? Or do certain people/events need to occur/be in place before it can be built?

 

Thank you for answering our questions. :)

 

What will trigger the rebuilding (proceeded by arrival of Moshiach ben Yosef and then Moshiach ben David)?  Well, the common understanding is that we have to be SOOOO awesome our observance of the mitzvos (commandments) will trigger the Redemptive process OR we will suck SOOOO badly they will have to come to save our sorry you-know-whats.

 

It will be rebuilt on that holy soil that is held by the Wakf of Jerusalem.  Don't know how that's going to work and I really don't want to think about it either. :)

[Greta]

I don't have a question (yet?) but wanted to thank you for starting the thread. I am reading it with great interest.

[YaelAldrich]

Such a cool thread!!!!  Thanks for starting it!!

 

 

Am I correct that sacrifices stopped when the temple was destroyed?  Is it a practice that some want to reinstate (so if the temple were rebuilt would animal sacrifice begin again)?  How is forgiveness now obtained without the sacrificial system?

 

The sacrifices stopped at that time.  We hope that the sacrifices will be restored as well.  We have at least one Yeshiva (college of Jewish studies) https://www.templeinstitute.org/main.htm  devoted to learning the laws and teaching them to the Priestly class (Cohanim and Leviim) so when we have a Temple (Beis HaMikdash), they can hop right to it. 

 

Now that we have no Temple, it is said that our lips in prayer are like the cows and other animals we sacrificed back then, 

[mommaduck]

Why would anyone want to become Jewish??!?!  Close yourself from so much in the world in terms of good food, good relationships, good experiences and so much more?  

 

Now, that said, I converted to Orthodox Judaism about 20 years ago.  Yes, I consider myself CRAY-CRAY.  But I also wouldn't want it any other way.

 

Noachides are true troopers in that they have little in the way of networks or communities unlike Orthodox Judaism.  You are right; there isn't so much for them.  Mostly because most Jews still primarily think of their own (due to the history of Jews among the Gentiles) and not about the fine and upstanding Noachides out there.  Now there are exceptions.  Some Chabads make a home for the Noachide population amongst their Jewish communities (like my friends the Ederys in Japan).  I wish we Jews were in a good enough place spiritually and  physically we could encourage their growth to a real community.

 

I think that the rebuilding of the Third Temple (may it be rebuilt swiftly and soon), will make this happen.

 

But in today's reality, people who are cray-cray enough will try to convert since there is so little for Noachides.  Some will succeed and some will not.  I wish them all the best.

 

Just on the highlighted part, I have a Conservadox Jewish friend that basically says that she finds Orthodox Christian fasting requirements harsher than Jewish, if one practices that discipline to it's fullest. Good relationships? Our communities are smaller and have less. I'm really not sure where you get the idea that we have all that and more. Maybe some Gentiles, but not all. Also, those of us that cover, well, if we aren't fundamentalist baptist or some such, we find more support with the covering Jewish women online in that area (we aren't trying to convert them and they aren't trying to convert us, we just happen to have this in common).

 

Thank you for explaining the rest :D

[YaelAldrich]

How do Orthodox Jews typically feel about Messianic Jews/Hebraic Christians?

 

 

I will be blunt and forthcoming.  Hebrew Christians - harmless oddities (that sometime give us a laugh since they muck up Hebrew pronunciation so badly (a side note:  a Christian woman saw me praying out of my Hebrew Prayerbook at the Cincy conference.  She asked me if I was Jewish and if I had been to Israel.  She said her daughter had been asked by some sort of minister if she wanted to go to college in Israel.  She asked how her daughter could learn Hebrew if that came to be.  I told her DON'T learn with Hebrew-Christians, rather go to your local mall and wander around until someone comes up to you and shmears goop on your skin or hair with a funny accent.  THEY are native Israelis and you should ask them to teach your daughter Hebrew. :lol: ) and wear tzitzis (ritual fringes) attached to one's clothing with safety pins (they are only to be worn on clothing with four distinct corners, like a poncho/cape)).

 

Messianic Jews - I don't find them harmless or odd, but a danger to the many, many "Jews for Nothing" we have here in the US.  Jews for Nothing know nothing about their great heritage or about the centuries of authentic Jewish learning their ancestors died for over and over.  When someone comes and love-bombs them and seems to know so much about "true Judaism", sprinkles some Yiddish and Hebrew words in their conversation and makes a "Shabbat" service complete with Torah and Tallit (prayer shawl) and Challah (special Shabbos bread), they bamboozle these Jews for Nothing and make them sin (unknowingly) on a level that would curl your toenails.

 

G-d gave the Jews an eternal covenant; one that would never, ever be broken or superceded.  That's why we're still here - after persecutions, expulsions, pogroms, Crusades, Holocausts and whatever else the world throws at us.  But that's also why we are still so small; by any rational accounting, we should number in the hundreds of millions, but we are so tiny (14 million).  To us there is no New Testament (Fulfilled Word).  Those people, all I can say is...feh.

 

I hope the ones who are actually Jewish (very few thank G-d) repent of their illusions and come to worship the True G-d of Israel.

[YaelAldrich]

Oh, and a bit of a silly question, but is there a reason for the curls some Jewish men wear in front of their ears? Is it just an old cultural tradition, or does it hold some religious significance?

 

Those are called payos/payot and they do have Biblical underpinnings.  Their source was mentioned in last week's Torah portion, Kedoshim.  The word payos comes from the commandment to leave the corners of the field for the poor to glean.  Nearby this commandment is the commandment for menfolk not to cut (with razors) the corners of their beards.  One of those corners is up by the ear.  The minimum length of that area needs to be long enough to hold with the fingertips, so payos don't have to be that long, but when we Jews do things we (can) do 'em BIG.  It's called a hiddur mitzvah (enhancement of the commandment).  So some Jews have the tradition of growing them long.  Maybe they curl naturally, sometimes they get some help from curling irons and perms (!!).  Some don't do it that way; doesn't make them any less religious, just a different tradition.  We say there are (at least) 70 Paths in  the Torah and its observance and they are all precious to G-d.

[Ameena]

This is kind of an odd question, so I totally understand if you don't know.

 

Is it true that in centuries past you could tell the Jewish tribe by the last name of the person? I have a couple of Shepardic Jewish ancestors who came to the colonies by way of Barbados from Spain in the early 1700's. Their last name was Aaron / Aron, and another family history buff said that last name meant they were part of the priestly tribe. I have no idea if that is true or not.

[YaelAldrich]

Was hoping someone would post this thread - I've got questions :)

 

What is the Jewish view of Messianic Judiaism?

 

Can someone explain the kosher dietary laws, in a nutshell? I have a friend who is Messianic Jewish & only eats kosher foods, But there are some foods with a Kosher symbol that they won't eat - like bread with L-Cystiene I think? Which makes no sense to me - kosher is kosher, right?

i answered the Messianic Question above.

 

Kosher means proper, as in the proper way for Jews to eat.  The kosher laws are brought down in the Bible to only eat domesticated mammals that  have both split hooves and chew their cud, birds enumerated in the Bible, sea creatures with scales and fins and one species of locust.  Therefore we cannot eat pigs, camels, birds of prey, snails, crabs,  , crickets, etc.  We also cannot eat the blood of creatures we kill.  The way we kill land animals is specialized and found to be almost painless.  We also cannot eat the kid cooked in its mother's milk.

 

Now you have to understand Judaism does not rely solely upon the strict reading of the Bible.  We have an interpretive gloss on everything said in the Bible from our Sages of Blessed Memory.  So from that we understand we are not only to abstain from kids in their mother's milk, but any meat in milk, not to benefit from it, not to cook it or eat it.  So today we don't eat chicken, beef, or any other land animal cooked with or mixed into a milk or milk based substance.

 

There are other laws having to do with the preparation of foods such as wine/grape products, cheese, and some other foods "worthy of being placed on a table for royalty".

 

So baseline for a kosher keeping Jew would be:

-Only cow, goat, sheep, chicken, goose, duck, turkey, all slaughtered in the Jewish manner and soaked and salted to remove the blood.  Never cooked with any milky product or by-product

-Fish with scales and fins.  No special slaughtering or salting/soaking required.

-Grape juice/wine made by Jews only

-checking for insects in all leafy veggies/fruits and select other ones

-separate dishes, pots, pans, silverware washing up sponges, sinks/basins for milky and meaty foods (Yes, Virginia.  That means 4-6 SETS of dishes/silverware/pots - dairy, meat, pareve, Shabbos/Yom Tov (Sabbath and Holiday -fancy stuff), and Passover meat and dairy - not everyone has all of these)

- not eating non-kosher food in a non-kosher restaurant

- checking all foods for a reliable hecksher (kosher supervision) before eating them.

-waiting some period between meat-based meals and milk-based meals

 

Your friend may or may not keep kosher strictly, especially since Jesus said he abrogated all those pesky commandments; there is no Jew or Gentile, right?  L-cystine is a kosher sensitive product, which means it can come from a kosher source or a non kosher one.  But she won't know unless it have the imprimatur of a kosher supervising agency.  Suggest she speak to her local Orthodox rabbi for guidance. 

[YaelAldrich]

Just on the highlighted part, I have a Conservadox Jewish friend that basically says that she finds Orthodox Christian fasting requirements harsher than Jewish, if one practices that discipline to it's fullest. Good relationships? Our communities are smaller and have less. I'm really not sure where you get the idea that we have all that and more. Maybe some Gentiles, but not all. Also, those of us that cover, well, if we aren't fundamentalist baptist or some such, we find more support with the covering Jewish women online in that area (we aren't trying to convert them and they aren't trying to convert us, we just happen to have this in common).

 

Thank you for explaining the rest :D

Dearest Mommaduck (that is such a cute name!), we are a small people with so many boundaries.  Nobody ever said we had the harshest rules.  I dare say she is right; Muslims fast for an entire month of daylight hours, Buddhists abstain from normal human acts, Jains eventually die from not eating food because they want to hurt the world as little as possible.  We don't win this contest. :)

 

The Catholic Church is huge and the network of charities surrounding them is enviable.  The Muslim world, likewise.  Christians of all stripes are out working with people that others run from.  We do good stuff too, but I don't understand how you see the non-Jewish communities as small and having less.  The world today is fractured and that makes people alone and without the basic comforts of previous generations.

 

As far as head covering, it's not the only rule we follow for reasons of modesty.  When the threads about modest bathing or other attire come up, I smile as most people's (outside of Islam) idea of modesty is less than my interpretation of the rules.  My bathing/exercise attire is a crew-necked covering the collarbone, at least 3/4 sleeve non-see through shirt, leggings covering at least the knee with a skirt about 4 inches below the knee and a head covering that covers all my hair.  I love to see the variety of women on Wrapunzel - Christians, Muslims, Jews, Rastas, and who knows who else!

 

I hope you find the menuchah (rest) and shalom (peace) you seek whether in the Jewish, Noachide or general Gentile world! :grouphug:

[YaelAldrich]

This is kind of an odd question, so I totally understand if you don't know.

 

Is it true that in centuries past you could tell the Jewish tribe by the last name of the person? I have a couple of Shepardic Jewish ancestors who came to the colonies by way of Barbados from Spain in the early 1700's. Their last name was Aaron / Aron, and another family history buff said that last name meant they were part of the priestly tribe. I have no idea if that is true or not.

Yes, it's true that it is possible to determine priestly lineage through names.  There were some really interesting articles on this in a Jewish magazine (alas not on the internet!) over the last year.  Aron didn't tend to be one of those names though.  Aaron/Aron was the name of the first priest named by G-d.  But people of the priestly class (Cohanim) tended to have the last names Katz (Kohen Tzedek), Cohen, Kahn, and a bunch I cannot remember.  Aron was not one of them.  Sephardim tended to make last names in those days from their father so an original ancestor may have been names Aaron (a common name).

 

Hope that helps!   If I unearth these articles, I will do a little more research...

[Ameena]

i answered the Messianic Question above.

 

Kosher means proper, as in the proper way for Jews to eat.  The kosher laws are brought down in the Bible to only eat domesticated mammals that  have both split hooves and chew their cud, birds enumerated in the Bible, sea creatures with scales and fins and one species of locust.  Therefore we cannot eat pigs, camels, birds of prey, snails, crabs,  , crickets, etc.  We also cannot eat the blood of creatures we kill.  The way we kill land animals is specialized and found to be almost painless.  We also cannot eat the kid cooked in its mother's milk.

 

*snip*

 

Thank you for answering this in such detail. It seems very similar to Halal, except we don't do the no meat / milk thing & the separate dishes & we add in no alcoholic items.

 

 

As a follow up question - in Judaism are the stricter dietary requirements waived if one can't find kosher food? Like say someone starving or in a medical emergency & needing to eat quickly to maintain health.

[YaelAldrich]

Do Hassidic Jews come under Orthodox Judaism, or is that considered yet another thing (like Reform and Conservative are)?

 

And, I was on a ferry to the Statue of Liberty this weekend with a large group of Hassidic Jews (appeared to be a youth group outing inclusive of many handicapped individuals) - they seemed to be speaking Yiddish among themselves (I am guessing because I could make out some if it from speaking German).  I don't think I've ever heard Yiddish being spoken as a living language... is it still spoken widely in this community (if you know the answer...)?

You know before I head off to my other work, I forgot to mention this about the group you saw.  We O Jews do have a goodly number of people in our midst that have developmental problems or birth defects.  Many (especially within the more right wing groups) don't stop having children because of age nor do they have routine ultrasounds because in their eyes, every child is a complete blessing (even to the point that major rabbis give children/people with special needs the honors we give to great rabbis.  They say they are a reincarnation, but one with very little to fix within their soul - we humans are here on earth to do mitzvos (G-d's commandments) to rectify the soul's imperfections; those with special needs have little to fix as their capability to do as many mitzvos is less) .  

 

Therefore, we have numerous organizations that help support the families of such children.  They do respite care on weekends and holidays, they come to take care of the other children in the household and give them extra attention and love, they take these special children to summer camp and that is probably what you saw.

[YaelAldrich]

Thank you for answering this in such detail. It seems very similar to Halal, except we don't do the no meat / milk thing & the separate dishes & we add in no alcoholic items.

 

 

As a follow up question - in Judaism are the stricter dietary requirements waived if one can't find kosher food? Like say someone starving or in a medical emergency & needing to eat quickly to maintain health.

It is similar to halal and haram foods.

 

For medical emergencies (more or less defined as losing a limb, organ or life itself), you are permitted to do whatever it takes to save a life - break the Sabbath (I've done it several times), eat whatever is prescribed to you, anything!

 

If it is a true starving situation, yes a person is allowed to eat as they need to.  Many great people, during the Holocaust for example, did not do that and survived this time with kosher bread (in Europe the bread was purer of ingredient) and potatoes/vegetables.  When my husband and I went to Jordan for a week (between the Intifadas!), we smuggled in our food as we wouldn't eat not kosher. When I was taken to the hospital unexpectedly for a long stay with my infant, I talked to the food people.  The good thing about America is that you can easily eat kosher almost anywhere.  The bagels were kosher as was the cream cheese and cereal and milk.  They had kosher certified hard boiled eggs and mayo in packages too.  There were ample fruits and veggies as well.   I was fine until I could get proper meals.

 

 I've never not eaten non-kosher on purpose and hope I never have to!

[Little Women]

What will trigger the rebuilding (proceeded by arrival of Moshiach ben Yosef and then Moshiach ben David)? 

 

Would you mind elaborating on these two people?    I am guessing that what Gentiles who believe in the OT call the "Messiah" might be what is referred to as "Moshiach ben David," but I have not heard of "Moshiach ben Yosef."    Also, what role would "Elijah" play in this?

 

Now that we have no Temple, it is said that our lips in prayer are like the cows and other animals we sacrificed back then, 

 

Do you believe that this fulfills the law?    Do you believe that G-d see it as the same as sacrifices?

[YaelAldrich]

Would you mind elaborating on these two people?    I am guessing that what Gentiles who believe in the OT call the "Messiah" might be what is referred to as "Moshiach ben David," but I have not heard of "Moshiach ben Yosef."    Also, what role would "Elijah" play in this?

 

 

Do you believe that this fulfills the law?    Do you believe that G-d see it as the same as sacrifices?

 

You know, I don't know terribly much about the two people as they aren't really described in detail in everyday Jewish texts.  This is esoteric stuff; made for people who have much more learning than I under their belts.

 

But I can tell you that the Christian idea of their Messiah:  a man-God, one who dies and returns, one who suffers on this earth to rectify the sins of Man, is NOT, NOT, NOT the Jewish idea of our Messiah.  Our Messiahs will be humans (completely), no special super powers other than to unite the world in the knowledge of the one, true G-d.  

 

Here's an article from the great Rabbi Schochet about the Messiahs: http://www.chabad.org/library/moshiach/article_cdo/aid/101747/jewish/Appendix-II.htm

 

I do believe G-d accepts our prayers as if they were animal sacrifices.  Hoshea 14:3  and I Kings 8:46-50 say so!  Our prayer services even parallel the sacrifices given for that particular day (our Mussaf, or Additional Prayer on Shabbos (Sabbaths) and holidays, as well as the Yom Kippur prayers).  We talk about the specific sacrifices we would have given for those events in those prayers.  I do hope however that I will merit to bring a korban (offering) to G-d soon in the Beis HaMikdash.

[Guest submarines]

The sacrifices stopped at that time.  We hope that the sacrifices will be restored as well.  We have at least one Yeshiva (college of Jewish studies) https://www.templeinstitute.org/main.htm  devoted to learning the laws and teaching them to the Priestly class (Cohanim and Leviim) so when we have a Temple (Beis HaMikdash), they can hop right to it. 

 

Now that we have no Temple, it is said that our lips in prayer are like the cows and other animals we sacrificed back then, 

 

Why is Yiddish used for translating "Temple"? Wouldn't the language used in the Temple be Hebrew? If now, why not?

 

[YaelAldrich]

Why is Yiddish used for translating "Temple"? Wouldn't the language used in the Temple be Hebrew? If now, why not?

 

Hmmm.  What word would you be referring to?  Shul (school in Yiddish, but colloquially synagogue)?  Beis (or Beit depending on your heritage, I'm Ashkenazi) HaMikdash?  That's Hebrew.

 

Yeah, we won't be praying in Yiddish or Ladino or Judeo-Spanish, or Judeo-Greek.  Just Hebrew and maybe a little Aramaic to mix it up... 

[idnib]

Shalom,

 

Muslim here...

 

(To be clear, I don't wear hijab myself.)  I have always been puzzled by the use of wigs by some Orthodox women. I hope this doesn't sound offensive, but it seems like following the letter of the law (cover your hair) but not the spirit (modesty). 

 

Can you offer some insight into this phenomenon?

 

Thank you.

[mirth]

What's the difference between orthodox Jews and ultra orthodox Jews (Haredi)? Is there a difference? Thanks!

[eternalsummer]

My maternal grandmother was a reform convert; I spent summers with her when young (and a couple of High Holy Days and Passovers) so I was sort of off-and-on exposed to Reform.

 

Somehow when she moved we happened upon a messianic congregation; it was led by a former Orthodox Jew, so we didn't realize it was messianic until the service started.

 

We kept going to the temple (that is what they called it, fair enough I figure) until my grandmother could no longer bide his belief in Jesus; I kept going for quite some time after that (I didn't know what I believed at the time, but I was comfortable in the congregation).

 

I was 12-14 at the time so my recollections may not be entirely accurate, but I think you've mischaracterized the Jewish members of the Messianic movement to a degree.  The rabbi (this is how everyone referred to him; I don't know his religious training) did not reject the history or tradition of Judaism; he kept kosher, shabbat, had lots of kids, etc.  He just saw the New Testament as the fulfillment of the Torah; it didn't seem to subtract from his faith, just added to it.

 

It was a small, poor congregation with probably 30 regular members who were gentile and 3-4 (including the rabbi but not his kids) who were jews; perhaps the motivations and expressions are different in larger congregations and different areas.  There was some ignorance about Jewish custom and history but not one instance, that I ever saw (and I was a pretty perceptive 13 year old) of disrespect or the casting off of Jewish tradition or law.   The congregants were about as pure of spirit and heart as I've ever seen in churchgoers of any religion.

[Mom in High Heels]

This is fascinating. I haven't read the whole thread yet, but will come back to it tomorrow.  I don't know if this has been asked, but what are the differences between the Jewish...sects (is that what you call them?)?

[DawnM]

That is pretty harsh.  I have heard Jews say before that they don't believe one can be Jewish and Christian and that they need to pick one or the other.

 

I have several friends who go to our local Messianic Jewish Center here in town.  Some were never Jewish, others are Jewish converts, even some former Orthodox converts.  

 

Question, what do you believe happens to one who doesn't repent?  

 

Dawn

 

I will be blunt and forthcoming.  Hebrew Christians - harmless oddities (that sometime give us a laugh since they muck up Hebrew pronunciation so badly (a side note:  a Christian woman saw me praying out of my Hebrew Prayerbook at the Cincy conference.  She asked me if I was Jewish and if I had been to Israel.  She said her daughter had been asked by some sort of minister if she wanted to go to college in Israel.  She asked how her daughter could learn Hebrew if that came to be.  I told her DON'T learn with Hebrew-Christians, rather go to your local mall and wander around until someone comes up to you and shmears goop on your skin or hair with a funny accent.  THEY are native Israelis and you should ask them to teach your daughter Hebrew. :lol: ) and wear tzitzis (ritual fringes) attached to one's clothing with safety pins (they are only to be worn on clothing with four distinct corners, like a poncho/cape)).

 

Messianic Jews - I don't find them harmless or odd, but a danger to the many, many "Jews for Nothing" we have here in the US.  Jews for Nothing know nothing about their great heritage or about the centuries of authentic Jewish learning their ancestors died for over and over.  When someone comes and love-bombs them and seems to know so much about "true Judaism", sprinkles some Yiddish and Hebrew words in their conversation and makes a "Shabbat" service complete with Torah and Tallit (prayer shawl) and Challah (special Shabbos bread), they bamboozle these Jews for Nothing and make them sin (unknowingly) on a level that would curl your toenails.

 

G-d gave the Jews an eternal covenant; one that would never, ever be broken or superceded.  That's why we're still here - after persecutions, expulsions, pogroms, Crusades, Holocausts and whatever else the world throws at us.  But that's also why we are still so small; by any rational accounting, we should number in the hundreds of millions, but we are so tiny (14 million).  To us there is no New Testament (Fulfilled Word).  Those people, all I can say is...feh.

 

I hope the ones who are actually Jewish (very few thank G-d) repent of their illusions and come to worship the True G-d of Israel.

 

[YaelAldrich]

Shalom,

 

Muslim here...

 

(To be clear, I don't wear hijab myself.)  I have always been puzzled by the use of wigs by some Orthodox women. I hope this doesn't sound offensive, but it seems like following the letter of the law (cover your hair) but not the spirit (modesty). 

 

Can you offer some insight into this phenomenon?

 

Thank you.

It isn't offensive and I have had other people ask the same thing.  We are enjoined to cover the hair.  It doesn't matter how or with what we cover the hair, just that we cover it.  Some of those head coverings can be quite..alluring.  To many/most, that's OK as they feel a woman must feel beautiful inside and out and a gorgeous wig can help -- don't have to match the covering to the clothing, don't have to look different that "regular" people, can feel "normal".  The wig will never feel like the wearers own hair - you'll never run your fingers from scalp to end, you can't really fling it like real hair, it's hot on the head (more so than a different covering), you're always a little more careful in it, you can't stand over boiling pots or stick your head in a hot oven without messing it up.  The woman covering her hair will ALWAYS remember SHE is covering her hair and that is the point.  Now, not every rabbinical figure/woman feels this is justification for the super-lux wigs out there since they think they are not modest, so they don't wear such things.  They are in fashion now, but one can buck the trend, right?

 

I wear all sorts of head coverings - scarves, hats, wigs (but not the ultra-lux ones). Sometimes I envy those long, flowing tresses, but then I remember I hate hair past my neck! :)

[YaelAldrich]

What's the difference between orthodox Jews and ultra orthodox Jews (Haredi)? Is there a difference? Thanks!

It's mostly philosophy and attitude towards the amount of interaction with the world with a result of some small differences in practice.

 

Please remember though that different communities follow different rabbis/rebbes that give different rabbinical opinions for their followers to follow, so one rabbi may rule on something (say those long, glamorous wigs I talked about in the last post) and a different rabbi will rule a different way so some may allow/encourage them and the other community may shun the wigs (not the owners/wearers!) and both are following the law to a T.  Each community is following their rabbi and therefore they will have different practices or philosophies.  

 

About 90-95% of the stuff we all do more or less the same and about 99% of what we THINK/BELIEVE is the same. 

[YaelAldrich]

My maternal grandmother was a reform convert; I spent summers with her when young (and a couple of High Holy Days and Passovers) so I was sort of off-and-on exposed to Reform.

 

Somehow when she moved we happened upon a messianic congregation; it was led by a former Orthodox Jew, so we didn't realize it was messianic until the service started.

 

We kept going to the temple (that is what they called it, fair enough I figure) until my grandmother could no longer bide his belief in Jesus; I kept going for quite some time after that (I didn't know what I believed at the time, but I was comfortable in the congregation).

 

I was 12-14 at the time so my recollections may not be entirely accurate, but I think you've mischaracterized the Jewish members of the Messianic movement to a degree.  The rabbi (this is how everyone referred to him; I don't know his religious training) did not reject the history or tradition of Judaism; he kept kosher, shabbat, had lots of kids, etc.  He just saw the New Testament as the fulfillment of the Torah; it didn't seem to subtract from his faith, just added to it.

 

It was a small, poor congregation with probably 30 regular members who were gentile and 3-4 (including the rabbi but not his kids) who were jews; perhaps the motivations and expressions are different in larger congregations and different areas.  There was some ignorance about Jewish custom and history but not one instance, that I ever saw (and I was a pretty perceptive 13 year old) of disrespect or the casting off of Jewish tradition or law.   The congregants were about as pure of spirit and heart as I've ever seen in churchgoers of any religion.

 

 

That is pretty harsh.  I have heard Jews say before that they don't believe one can be Jewish and Christian and that they need to pick one or the other.

 

I have several friends who go to our local Messianic Jewish Center here in town.  Some were never Jewish, others are Jewish converts, even some former Orthodox converts.  

 

Question, what do you believe happens to one who doesn't repent?  

 

Dawn

 

I said I was being blunt and forthright.  Quite honestly I was being nice.

 

I never said these people were not pure of heart and intention nor that they were bad or mean. I said they were wrong; causing Jews, ignorant Jews to stumble and sin/go away from G-d's will for the Jews.  If Christians want to don Jewish clothing and dance around with a Torah while eating challah and mandlebrot and matzo ball soup, singing Hava nagila, they should do so in great joy and health. :D But when those same people go to Jewish people and tell them they don't have to give up an iota of their Jewishness and can believe in Jesus as their Savior to complete or fulfill them, that's when I and every other Jew and Jewish organization I know say STOP!

 

You can't add to a faith that is whole, just like you can't add to a cup of water that is already full.  As I said earlier, G-d told us we have an eternal covenant a bunch of times in the Jewish Bible.  Is G-d a liar?  Does G-d forget what he did for the Jews after a couple of centuries?  Does G-d change his mind?  

 

What would Christians say if there was an organization called Christians for Mohammed (PBUH -- please Muslims, don't hate me for this.).  They made services like Christians, put up a cross/crucifix/icons in their worship places, wore crosses/other Christian religious clothing and gear, said you can be a Christian AND believe Mohammed (PBUH) was the final and ultimate Prophet.  You could take communion but you also needed to say the Shahada to be "fulfilled" or "completed". You could have church services but weave the ideas of Islam into it because Islam was the true culmination of the Christian faith.  You'd laugh because you know (in your belief system) Jesus was the final and ultimate partner to G-d.  There is no need for any other.  So, that's what we think of Messianic Jews/Jews for Jesus. Christianity is great for...Christians, not Jews

 

As for those who take Jews away from Judaism; I wouldn't want to be in their shoes after this life is over.  I don't G-d would be too pleased with their actions.  And for those misguided Jewish souls who fall for this sham.  G-d does not punish those who sin without knowledge in the same way that He would someone who knows the laws and flouts them.  

 

There are organizations and people who try to help those who want to learn about true Judaism.  Jews for Judaism is the biggest of these organizations and you can find out more about them here http://jewsforjudaism.org/ .

[YaelAldrich]

This is fascinating. I haven't read the whole thread yet, but will come back to it tomorrow.  I don't know if this has been asked, but what are the differences between the Jewish...sects (is that what you call them?)?

In short, practice, belief and philosophy.  I'll try to come back and answer this soon!

[YaelAldrich]

Attitudes towards higher education for girls ? Woefully ignorant here.

Super short answer!  If all depends on the communities' desire to interact with the secular world.  The communities that seek to engage the secular world have girls/women going for higher degrees in the same numbers (maybe more even) and in varied subjects (practical and esoteric) as their secular counterparts. In some communities they encourage women (and men) to take practical higher education degrees (CPA, OT, PT, Socal Work, Law) but not esoteric ones (Classics, Gender Studies, English Lit) in order to use higher education for their career but not much else.  Then there are communities who shun all higher ed for women and men and so therefore don't go on to college and the like.

 

My daughters (and sons)I hope will go to college for preferably a practical degree, knowing shoveling fries into a paper cone doesn't pay the bills so well!  Being a (typical) Jew isn't the cheapest lifestyle out there - our communities often are in nicer, more expensive neighborhoods, we pay more for kosher meat, cheese, and wine, we have many holidays (and our weekly Sabbath) with Thanksgiving amounts of food.  If they want to send their children out to Jewish Day Schools, the tuition start at 7K a year per kid and go up to 20K a child.

[DawnM]

I was just commenting, not arguing.  I was surprised.  If this is the way my friend's family think of her, I now understand a little better what she is going through.

 

However, I did want to know about punishment and you directed me to a website.  I don't really want a website as I thought that was the purpose of this thread, to ask questions and get them directly answered.  

 

Dawn

 

 

I said I was being blunt and forthright.  Quite honestly I was being nice.

 

I never said these people were not pure of heart and intention nor that they were bad or mean. I said they were wrong; causing Jews, ignorant Jews to stumble and sin/go away from G-d's will for the Jews.  If Christians want to don Jewish clothing and dance around with a Torah while eating challah and mandlebrot and matzo ball soup, singing Hava nagila, they should do so in great joy and health. :D But when those same people go to Jewish people and tell them they don't have to give up an iota of their Jewishness and can believe in Jesus as their Savior to complete or fulfill them, that's when I and every other Jew and Jewish organization I know say STOP!

 

You can't add to a faith that is whole, just like you can't add to a cup of water that is already full.  As I said earlier, G-d told us we have an eternal covenant a bunch of times in the Jewish Bible.  Is G-d a liar?  Does G-d forget what he did for the Jews after a couple of centuries?  Does G-d change his mind?  

 

What would Christians say if there was an organization called Christians for Mohammed (PBUH -- please Muslims, don't hate me for this.).  They made services like Christians, put up a cross/crucifix/icons in their worship places, wore crosses/other Christian religious clothing and gear, said you can be a Christian AND believe Mohammed (PBUH) was the final and ultimate Prophet.  You could take communion but you also needed to say the Shahada to be "fulfilled" or "completed". You could have church services but weave the ideas of Islam into it because Islam was the true culmination of the Christian faith.  You'd laugh because you know (in your belief system) Jesus was the final and ultimate partner to G-d.  There is no need for any other.  So, that's what we think of Messianic Jews/Jews for Jesus. Christianity is great for...Christians, not Jews

 

As for those who take Jews away from Judaism; I wouldn't want to be in their shoes after this life is over.  I don't G-d would be too pleased with their actions.  And for those misguided Jewish souls who fall for this sham.  G-d does not punish those who sin without knowledge in the same way that He would someone who knows the laws and flouts them.  There are organizations and people who try to help those who want to learn about true Judaism.  Jews for Judaism is the biggest of these organizations and you can find out more about them here http://jewsforjudaism.org/ .

 

[YaelAldrich]

I was just commenting, not arguing.  I was surprised.  If this is the way my friend's family think of her, I now understand a little better what she is going through.

 

However, I did want to know about punishment and you directed me to a website.  I don't really want a website as I thought that was the purpose of this thread, to ask questions and get them directly answered.  

 

Dawn

We don't know any specific punishment for any specific sin (aveirah - lit. lacking) in the afterworld/Heaven.  In this world, we don't allow the person in this situation to take any honors in the synagogue, they cannot be a witness in a Jewish court or to verify food is kosher, if they touch a non-mevushal (cooked) bottle of wine, Jews cannot use it.  No mainstream synagogue will accept them as a member nor will their children be accepted in a Jewish school.  

 

We are commanded to die rather than convert, submit to sexual immorality, and murder another human.   I (and theoretically any other Orthodox Jew) would happily die before converting to any other religion.  

 

I am happy to give of my time as much as I am able to help others learn about Judaism, but sometimes I cannot or will not be able to answer every question. I apologize.  Perhaps I should have said so in the beginning.

 

[Lady Florida.]

We hope so very deeply.  We hope and pray for it multiple times a day in our general prayers, our prayers after eating bread, many of our Shabbos (Sabbath) songs and we even hope for it at the end of the Passover Seder (Next Year in Jerusalem -- it's not for the felafel! :p )

 

We know that with the Third Temple (may it be rebuilt speedily in our days!) there will come animal sacrifice for individual sins and for thanks to G-d, but will also come a complete and total peace for all the nations of the world.  All will come to recognize G-d as Creator and Sustainer and will come to worship as well.

 

 

 

The sacrifices stopped at that time.  We hope that the sacrifices will be restored as well.  We have at least one Yeshiva (college of Jewish studies) https://www.templeinstitute.org/main.htm  devoted to learning the laws and teaching them to the Priestly class (Cohanim and Leviim) so when we have a Temple (Beis HaMikdash), they can hop right to it. 

 

Now that we have no Temple, it is said that our lips in prayer are like the cows and other animals we sacrificed back then,

 

Please help me understand. Are you hoping for a return to literal animal sacrifice?

[milovany]

I have learned so much about the Jewish faith through threads/posts like this, and I appreciate that it has changed my understanding over the last few years.  Thank you for your role in that. 

 

Regarding Jews converting to Christianity: What if they want to of their own will, outside of a movement like Jews for Jesus or some such "messianic" approach?  Our Orthodox (Christian) pastor is a Jew who converted to Christianity through his own prayer and reading as a young adult.  (He was raised a secular/atheistic Jew).  He's not anti-Judaism at all.  He speaks with great respect of the Jewish people (and includes himself as one), but he's fully Christian. 

 

Which I guess brings up a second question -- how can someone be an atheistic Jew?  He's very clear that that was how he was raised. If the basis of Judaism is being one have God's chosen (which I believe and respect), how can one be an atheist? 

 

I have NO "hidden" thought behind my questions!  They are truly sincere.  Just wanted to understand more. 

[YaelAldrich]

 

Please help me understand. Are you hoping for a return to literal animal sacrifice?

 

Yup.  Real animal sacrifice.  Sounds crazy doesn't it?  

 

There is an optional ceremony called kapores done before Yom Kippur (the day of atonement).  One way to do it to symbolically transfer your sins to a chicken/rooster and then have it slaughtered to help feed the poor before the holiday (which consists of fasting for 25 hours amongst other things).  I did it once with a chicken then watched as the ritual slaughterer sliced open "my" chicken's neck and watched the blood drain out and the chicken die.  There are some parallels to the ritual sacrifice that will be in the Third Temple - the person bringing the sin offering would put his/her hands on the head of the animal before the slaughter saying that this animal is in a sense taking on the punishment that the person actually merited by taking him/herself away from G-d by sinning.  For me, this a the most graphic way for me to see the consequences of my actions and why I need to try to do right.

 

The animals sacrificed do end up as meat for the priestly class and reformed sinner to eat, so there is no waste in that regard.  What do vegetarians do?  A great Rabbi (Rabbi Kook of Israel) said there might be no more animal sacrifices in the Third Temple, except the Passover sacrifice. That one stays!

[Xuzi]

Do all sins require a sacrifice? Do the animals sacrificed represent several sins at a time (like the chicken represented times when you've lost your temper, plus times when you've told lies, etc. etc.)?

[Lady Florida.]

Yup.  Real animal sacrifice.  Sounds crazy doesn't it?  

 

There is an optional ceremony called kapores done before Yom Kippur (the day of atonement).  One way to do it to symbolically transfer your sins to a chicken/rooster and then have it slaughtered to help feed the poor before the holiday (which consists of fasting for 25 hours amongst other things).  I did it once with a chicken then watched as the ritual slaughterer sliced open "my" chicken's neck and watched the blood drain out and the chicken die.  There are some parallels to the ritual sacrifice that will be in the Third Temple - the person bringing the sin offering would put his/her hands on the head of the animal before the slaughter saying that this animal is in a sense taking on the punishment that the person actually merited by taking him/herself away from G-d by sinning.  For me, this a the most graphic way for me to see the consequences of my actions and why I need to try to do right.

 

The animals sacrificed do end up as meat for the priestly class and reformed sinner to eat, so there is no waste in that regard.  What do vegetarians do?  A great Rabbi (Rabbi Kook of Israel) said there might be no more animal sacrifices in the Third Temple, except the Passover sacrifice. That one stays!

Thank you for explaining.