S/O Ask a Muslim...

[Ipsey]

Hopefully, there's a niqabi on here who can answer. :)

 

Honestly, I'm a little taken aback too.  Among Muslim communities where I've lived, it has not been the norm.  I knew one woman who covered and it was because she had been the victim of an attack in her home country.  Her face had been burned by acid I think, and basically she felt that the stares from niqab were nowhere near what she would have experienced if she did not cover her face. :(  But I have to admit that I haven't had a lot of experience with niqabis.  I've been in women only situations where they keep their niqabs on, and I've been in women-only situations where they do not.  In some cultures it is very common, and in others it is extremely rare.  

 

As for talking with her, start with a smile or saying "hi" or if you want to try saying "Assalamu Alaikum"  (you can pronounce it like salam a-lay-kum).  As a plain ol' hijab wearing Muslim, a smile goes very far with me. :)

 

It was hard for me to get used to teaching women who wore niqab, but I got used to it, mostly. It's still hard at times though. Then again, many of the women who come to our school take off the niqab and have bare faces in the US but say they will wear it when they go back to Saudi Arabia. One of my students wears it because her husband wants her to, and another wears it because of  her own desire, so she says. (Other Muslim students say it is wrong for the husband to require the wife to wear the niqab). I'm always delighted to visit my niqabi studnets in private when they remove their face covering, and I have the impression I'm talking to a "whole" person. That sounds horrible, but there is a certain distancing with someone who covers their face (though I know much of this is my own cultural training). However, I have had fascinating conversations with Saudi women on this matter. I told them that sometimes I had a very hard time reading expressions, and sometimes I couldn't tell if students were angry at me or confused or frustrated because I couldn't read eyes. Many of them nodded and agreed that it was one of the problems of wearing and interacting with other women wearing niqab, so I found that oddly reassuring. 

 

We used to have one niqabi on this board--I remember her saying that she'd never invite a woman in her house who didn't cover hair or face. She was uber conservative, from what I could gather. I'd never "met" another Muslim like her.

[Ipsey]

Hmmm. I don't find naqabis upsetting if I see them on the street or anything (rare in my city.) I think it would be difficult for a non-Muslim to get to know them; they tend to be very insular, at least around here.

 

My cousin wears a niqab. She was raised with average conservatism. She married into a more conservative family, but even the women in that family don't wear niqab. She just became more conservative and kept going. She even wears gloves. I personally find this all highly unnecessary.  Her husband made a point of telling everyone this was not at his request and he had discouraged it, and I believe him; she has far surpassed the covering of his own mother and sisters. She and my father got into a fight because she wouldn't take it off in front of him and he found that insulting because he had known her from when she was born and would now, presumably never see her face again. It's an odd situation. We used to eat in a mixed family group but after she covered her face we now separate out so she won't have to eat alone. My dad says we're enabling her.  :unsure:

 

Oooh, that sounds very painful!

:(  I'm sorry to hear it.

[idnib]

That sounds horrible, but there is a certain distancing with someone who covers their face (though I know much of this is my own cultural training). 

 

I think most of it is biological and not cultural. We are highly evolved to read facial expressions, recognize faces, and look at eyes for social cues.

[Ameena]

Reading forums and blogs gives a good insight, I find. They are written by Muslims for Muslims, so it is obvious what the participants think they are doing and why.

 

 

I need someone to talk to me about food. (Oh, my inner kitchen witch is coming out!) I have read a bit about alcohol rules, but it seems very unlikely to me that Muslim societies would have *no* traditions of fermented foods.

 

I found youtube to be a good resource too - dawahaddict, Nye Armstrong / ILoveElHassan, Pearl Daisy - all are great for getting a good balanced view of Islam IMO.

[Mom in High Heels]

Traditionally, girls are supposed to start covering at puberty.  Some Muslim Moms encourage their girls to start when they start school, so it's normal to them.  Others encourage them to start around 10, so it's not blatantly obvious when she gets her first period.  The norm I tend to see in the West is to leave that decision up to the girl, but I'm not going to lie and say that there aren't families where there is a lot of pressure to wear it.  Wearing it can mean more freedom for a girl because her parents will think of her as "good."    Some families actually discourage their daughters from putting on the hijab too soon….either because they don't want them harassed or because they don't want the daughters to feel they were pressured.  It really varies.

 

I'll also say that in my experience (yes, only me), families with Arabic backgrounds tend to want their daughters to cover more than Asian families.  There seems to be more leeway in Asian communities that I'm aware of.

 

In Egypt, from what I can tell, it's very much a fashion thing as well as a religious thing…so definitely peer pressure (to look trendy) plays a part.  There are tons of videos on youtube of teen girls teaching other girls how to pin a certain style, etc.   

 

Thank you for answering.  I have to say, I've always thought hajibs were beautiful, and can totally see them as a fashion statement.

[Rosie_0801]

Thank you for answering.  I have to say, I've always thought hajibs were beautiful, and can totally see them as a fashion statement.

 

Fashion statement? I've seen some hijabs in town that have crossed the line from fashion to architecture! Amazing to behold. :lol:

[umsami]

umsami,

 

Who is in your avatar and what does the caption read?

 

Also, I read a book I'm pretty sure was called the Freedom of the Veil but I'm having trouble tracking it down. Does it sound familiar?

 

My avatar is not a Muslim woman, but rather a Hindu environmentalist known as Vandana Shiva.  Some call her an ecofeminist.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vandana_Shiva

 

I remember seeing a quote from her and liking it, and I think I used it in a discussion on Disqus on something evil Monsanto had done and it has followed me forever. LOL :)

 

I can't even read the thing myself, but I think it's this quote: "Corporations are fictions. They have been assigned a human and legal personality, and now they're trying to dispossess people of their democratic rights, and they're trying to dispossess nature of her rights. We are at a watershed for human evolution.     We will either defend the rights of people and the earth, and for that we have to dismantle the rights that corporations have assigned to themselves, or corporations will in the next three decades destroy this planet in terms of human possibilities."  

 

I'm not familiar with "Freedom of the Veil" but there's a famous book by Fatima Mernissa called "The Veil and The Male Elite."  There's also a book called "Veiled Freedom" on Amazon.  

[Ameena]

Thank you for answering.  I have to say, I've always thought hajibs were beautiful, and can totally see them as a fashion statement.

Fashion statement? I've seen some hijabs in town that have crossed the line from fashion to architecture! Amazing to behold. :lol:

 

Totally agree - some hijab styles are just a work of art! Mine unfortunately aren't :( There are a bazillion youtube videos out there on hijab styles & tutorials.

 

 

 

Re Niqab - I do know a local sister who wears niqab full time here in the US. She is one of the most down to earth gals from the Caribbean you'll ever meet. I don't know all her reasons for wearing it, but I know at least one was because she is a single mom & runs an islamic shop where she has to be in contact often with men who come in to purchase items. For her, it was an extra reminder to  be professional & in accordance with Islamic teachings in her dealings with men - something she struggled with early on.

 

That being said I still am uneasy with niqab, until I get to know the sister wearing it.

[Ipsey]

Thank you for answering.  I have to say, I've always thought hajibs were beautiful, and can totally see them as a fashion statement.

 

I love them too!

 

When I was a headcovering Christian, I always wanted to wear the beautiful scarves instead of the relatively ugly coverings I wore, but I was sort of afraid I'd be taken as someone "stealing" from the Muslims.  Now, I'm trying to psych myself up to buy something beautiful from Wrapunzel.com :)

[umsami]

Yup, I'm a failed fashion hijabi too.  I wear mainly the Al Amirah style…which involves no pins.  It's kind of like hijab for dummies.  I'm hoping that should my daughter wear hijab, she'll help her poor Mom out, at least on special occasions.

 

I also could never style long hair.

 

Secret…sometimes you can have a bad hair day and a bad hijab day…and then it's like…well, I'm going back to bed. :)

 

Wrapunzel.com is awesome…I'd never heard of it.  I remember seeing a Mom/daughter duo at one of the Islamic conventions who wore head wraps and I thought they were so fab.  Unfortunately, I have zero talent for anything on top of my head.

[unsinkable]

My avatar is not a Muslim woman, but rather a Hindu environmentalist known as Vandana Shiva. Some call her an ecofeminist. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vandana_Shiva

 

I remember seeing a quote from her and liking it, and I think I used it in a discussion on Disqus on something evil Monsanto had done and it has followed me forever. LOL :)

 

I can't even read the thing myself, but I think it's this quote: "Corporations are fictions. They have been assigned a human and legal personality, and now they're trying to dispossess people of their democratic rights, and they're trying to dispossess nature of her rights. We are at a watershed for human evolution. We will either defend the rights of people and the earth, and for that we have to dismantle the rights that corporations have assigned to themselves, or corporations will in the next three decades destroy this planet in terms of human possibilities."

 

I'm not familiar with "Freedom of the Veil" but there's a famous book by Fatima Mernissa called "The Veil and The Male Elite." There's also a book called "Veiled Freedom" on Amazon.

Thanks.

 

I thought that was a bindi in the picture.

[Ameena]

Traditionally, girls are supposed to start covering at puberty.  Some Muslim Moms encourage their girls to start when they start school, so it's normal to them.  Others encourage them to start around 10, so it's not blatantly obvious when she gets her first period.  The norm I tend to see in the West is to leave that decision up to the girl, but I'm not going to lie and say that there aren't families where there is a lot of pressure to wear it.  Wearing it can mean more freedom for a girl because her parents will think of her as "good."    Some families actually discourage their daughters from putting on the hijab too soon….either because they don't want them harassed or because they don't want the daughters to feel they were pressured.  It really varies.

 

I'll also say that in my experience (yes, only me), families with Arabic backgrounds tend to want their daughters to cover more than Asian families.  There seems to be more leeway in Asian communities that I'm aware of.

 

In Egypt, from what I can tell, it's very much a fashion thing as well as a religious thing…so definitely peer pressure (to look trendy) plays a part.  There are tons of videos on youtube of teen girls teaching other girls how to pin a certain style, etc.   Example…. 

 

I totally agree with the above. I also find that children of American converts tend to wear hijab a lot.

 

I have a friend who's 4yo dd wears the hijab, but only part time by her choice. Mom doesn't push it unless they are going to the masjid.

 

My dd is almost 8, and I'm planning on giving her her first hijab as an Eid gift this year, along with a couple of children's picture books that talk about wearing the hijab being a special part of being a girl / woman. Will I make her wear it - no, unless we're going to the masjid. But if she wants to wear it someplace else then that's okay too.

[Ravin]

OK, I've got my courage up now to ask the next question....

 

How do you suggest handling discomfort as a non-Muslim over the niquab ?

 

There are women in our area who wear it. I'll be honest. It upsets me. I have an emotional reaction to a woman covering herself completely, whether or not she chose to do so ( and honestly, I question how free that choice is ).

 

Sometimes I think that the only way to deal with that is to get to know women in niquab, but how do I do that ?

 

It isn't so much the covering, as the gendered covering, if that makes sense.

 

 

It was hard for me to get used to teaching women who wore niqab, but I got used to it, mostly. It's still hard at times though. Then again, many of the women who come to our school take off the niqab and have bare faces in the US but say they will wear it when they go back to Saudi Arabia. One of my students wears it because her husband wants her to, and another wears it because of  her own desire, so she says. (Other Muslim students say it is wrong for the husband to require the wife to wear the niqab). I'm always delighted to visit my niqabi studnets in private when they remove their face covering, and I have the impression I'm talking to a "whole" person. That sounds horrible, but there is a certain distancing with someone who covers their face (though I know much of this is my own cultural training). However, I have had fascinating conversations with Saudi women on this matter. I told them that sometimes I had a very hard time reading expressions, and sometimes I couldn't tell if students were angry at me or confused or frustrated because I couldn't read eyes. Many of them nodded and agreed that it was one of the problems of wearing and interacting with other women wearing niqab, so I found that oddly reassuring. 

 

We used to have one niqabi on this board--I remember her saying that she'd never invite a woman in her house who didn't cover hair or face. She was uber conservative, from what I could gather. I'd never "met" another Muslim like her.

 

 

i have a question about etiquette around niqab. Is it appropriate to ask a niqabi to show her face when identification is necessary--i.e. in her driver's license photo, and to show that it is her when she conducts a business transaction (such as buying cigarettes, where I.D. must be shown)? I seem to recall reading something when I was educating myself about Islam (back when my ship was visiting the Persian Gulf in the Navy) which said that was the case, but then I also recall a news item a few years back where a Florida woman refused to bare her face for her driver's license photo. What's up with that? Is there customary etiquette for it in Muslim countries that a few people are refusing to carry forward in the U.S. because they can stand on 1st Amendment rights? 

 

What about with students? How do you know who it is taking a test?

[umsami]

i have a question about etiquette around niqab. Is it appropriate to ask a niqabi to show her face when identification is necessary--i.e. in her driver's license photo, and to show that it is her when she conducts a business transaction (such as buying cigarettes, where I.D. must be shown)? I seem to recall reading something when I was educating myself about Islam (back when my ship was visiting the Persian Gulf in the Navy) which said that was the case, but then I also recall a news item a few years back where a Florida woman refused to bare her face for her driver's license photo. What's up with that? Is there customary etiquette for it in Muslim countries that a few people are refusing to carry forward in the U.S. because they can stand on 1st Amendment rights? 

 

What about with students? How do you know who it is taking a test?

 

I think legally you're allowed to, but I would offer her the option of stepping into a side room, etc…and it should always be with another female.  I actually think this is really important because (TRIGGER WARNING) there was a horrific case in Philadelphia where a girl was taken from school by a person in niqab pretending to be her Mom and sexually assaulted.  

 

As far as I know, in Muslim countries, a woman would be dealing with another woman, often in a woman's only section, so it's not such a big deal regarding identification.  In the US, I think it varies as to reasons why some women refuse….and I would not negate that there may be community support among certain sections for them to stand up for their right to wear niqab.  I think that in the situation of court cases and the like, they hurt their own case.  But realistically, there should be no reason why in a private setting with another woman, a niqabi would not remove her veil.

 

I have no idea how it's handled with students.  In countries with same sex classrooms, I'm assuming that the girls do not cover in the classroom.  In US universities, they may have a female TA verify the identity or perhaps go based on voice, etc.  Really no idea.

[Ipsey]

i have a question about etiquette around niqab. Is it appropriate to ask a niqabi to show her face when identification is necessary--i.e. in her driver's license photo, and to show that it is her when she conducts a business transaction (such as buying cigarettes, where I.D. must be shown)? I seem to recall reading something when I was educating myself about Islam (back when my ship was visiting the Persian Gulf in the Navy) which said that was the case, but then I also recall a news item a few years back where a Florida woman refused to bare her face for her driver's license photo. What's up with that? Is there customary etiquette for it in Muslim countries that a few people are refusing to carry forward in the U.S. because they can stand on 1st Amendment rights? 

 

What about with students? How do you know who it is taking a test?

 

Our classes are small enough that there's no doubt who's under that niqab. :)

 

For large, anonymous classes, hmmmm, you have me there. I'll be interested in hearing the answer there.

 

I was fascinated watching one of my niqabi students drink tea under her niqab. You couldn't see a single thing except the silhouette of the cup as it went up and down and appeared again on the table.

 

Equally amazing, a couple of my students, with whom I felt pretty close, and they invited me to their houses, don't have any sort of picture taken. I had wanted a picture of a graduate student and I together, but she said it was impossible. Not even in full abaya and niqab. She said that if a picture of her ever got on Facebook or something, even if she was covered, that her brothers would kill her. I hoped she was exaggerating, but I didn't follow up. I wish I had.  

 

But, my women Saudi students--probably 80% of them--won't allow any sort of picture taken. The rest don't seem to have any problem with it. The men--not at all.  It's very interesting.  

 

Is this just a Saudi thing, or does this sometimes occur in other groups of Muslims?

 

ETA: Thanks for fielding all of these questions. It's kind of you. :)

 

[Kate in Arabia]

I haven't commented on this thread, because living overseas I find that a lot of these circumstances are just not the same here, I don't know that my experiences are terribly germaine - for example there are a lot of women here who wear niqab.  I have several women who wear niqab in my English classes, and I have many women in my extended in-law family and many close friends who wear it.  I don't wear it myself, but I don't have any automatic associations with it either -- I know women who have been pushed to wear it and some who have insisted on wearing it despite pressure to do the opposite.  For the vast majority it's just a personal choice without much/any pressure for or against.   

 

But I do see in general a lot of judgment within and without the Muslim community over it -- people who wear it are such-and-such, people who don't wear it are such-and-such.  I guess I've gotten to the point I'm so jaded, it just seems like in every culture there is always this all-permeating judgementalism over what women wear that I ultimately find depressing, I guess. 

[umsami]

Kate…yes, please chime in, and share your experience.  You will definitely have a different perspective.  I think that's so important, too, because people often assume that all Muslims are the same, when reality is there are lots of differences, cultural norms, etc.  Of course, pretty much every group I've met at least, thinks they practice Islam "the right way."  :)

 

I know a lot of Muslims who shun away from pictures--not only of themselves, but also in their homes (think art work that depicts people or animals).  But I'm pretty sure that every Muslim country does use pictures on IDs, etc.  It goes back to the whole graven images/idols thing.  I honestly haven't noticed in my circle a difference between men and women, but as in many cultures, there can definitely be double standards regarding what is acceptable for men/women.  

[Laura Corin]

I thought I posted this but I can't see it.

 

I tried to visit a mosque in China with the boys - they were curious about it.  The doors were open and we were taking off our shoes when a man came out and gestured that we couldn't come in.  He probably assumed that I couldn't speak Chinese, and I didn't ask why we couldn't come in because I felt it was entirely his decision anyway.

 

I might have been wearing short sleeves (I didn't think about that at the time) so that could have been the issue.  I also don't know what day of the week it was.  Apart from inappropriate dress and possibly interrupting worship - is there anything else that could have been an issue?  I don't want to cause offence in the future.

 

Thanks

 

L

[TheBugs]

I thought I posted this but I can't see it.

 

I tried to visit a mosque in China with the boys - they were curious about it.  The doors were open and we were taking off our shoes when a man came out and gestured that we couldn't come in.  He probably assumed that I couldn't speak Chinese, and I didn't ask why we couldn't come in because I felt it was entirely his decision anyway.

 

I might have been wearing short sleeves (I didn't think about that at the time) so that could have been the issue.  I also don't know what day of the week it was.  Apart from inappropriate dress and possibly interrupting worship - is there anything else that could have been an issue?  I don't want to cause offence in the future.

 

Thanks

 

L

 I have never been to China, but I have read that there are some interesting aspects to Chinese Islamic culture that differ from other places in the world. For example, unlike other places, they have women only mosques. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/mmw/2012/12/chinas-womens-mosques-claiming-womens-space-in-the-mosque/

 

Perhaps it was a mosque without a women's section, or a men only mosque.

[Amira]

I've been inside lots of mosques in the Middle East, but I was often not allowed inside them in Central Asia and China, but dh was. You're also likely to see differences between what Hui and Uyghurs will allow.

[Excelsior! Academy]

When I think of Muslim abiyas and niquab (sp?) I think of black and sometimes a light blue. Are there colors of significance?  Any that Muslims avoid? 

[Excelsior! Academy]

Hmmm. I don't find naqabis upsetting if I see them on the street or anything (rare in my city.) I think it would be difficult for a non-Muslim to get to know them; they tend to be very insular, at least around here.

 

My cousin wears a niqab. She was raised with average conservatism. She married into a more conservative family, but even the women in that family don't wear niqab. She just became more conservative and kept going. She even wears gloves. I personally find this all highly unnecessary.  Her husband made a point of telling everyone this was not at his request and he had discouraged it, and I believe him; she has far surpassed the covering of his own mother and sisters. She and my father got into a fight because she wouldn't take it off in front of him and he found that insulting because he had known her from when she was born and would now, presumably never see her face again. It's an odd situation. We used to eat in a mixed family group but after she covered her face we now separate out so she won't have to eat alone. My dad says we're enabling her.  :unsure:

 

I thought you could remove your covering around men you could not marry like your father, brothers, and sons.  Is this not the case?

[Ipsey]

Ooh, something that just occurred to me, the 5 times a day prayer. Not all of my students do it, and fewer seem to do it each year. 12 years ago, if someone was at my house and prayer time came up, they asked to perform prayers in my house. Of course, they were welcome to. Several months ago, I had a number of students over, and I rather expected they would all leave together at prayer time (I heard someone's cell go off to remind her of the prayer time), but they didn't. I was perfectly happy to entertain them for another hour or so. :D

 

I think 5-a-day prayer is a pillar of the faith, but it seems very difficult to maintain. Here in the US, if students had to leave classrooms, or jobs or whatnot to perform prayers, or teachers leave classrooms, etc. It seems to be quite an imposition and to really get in the way of life.

 

I guess I'm asking--of how much importance is the 5-time a day prayer? Since Islam is supposed to be available to all people all cultures, etc. how does that work in this world that doesn't just stop for prayer?

 

Thanks again for asking. I didn't realize how many questions I had. I think it comes from being in a  position of being a teacher and feeling I shouldn't drill my students about their faith, yet having so many of that faith.

 

 

[Ipsey]

I thought you could remove your covering around men you could not marry like your father, brothers, and sons.  Is this not the case?

 

That's what my Saudi students tell me, too. Hmmm, I'm seeing a lot of variation here. :)

 

I was Skyping with a Saudi friend today, and she wanted to make sure my husband couldn't see her on my monitor, and she didn't come on the monitor until I told her he couldn't. Even then, she seemed to have some concerns that he'd pass by and she kept her head covered and her earphones over the top. 

 

Some day I'm going to ask her about that? Does it feel threatening? Is she worried God will be mad? Her husband? What is the feeling that goes with that? I realize it's just one answer. . .but I can't even begin to imagine what goes into it.

[Ipsey]

You do your best to pray 5 times a day, and make it up later when you miss any.

 

Women are NOT asked to make up prayers missed during menses.

 

So,  you might pray 6, 7, 8 times the next day? Do this progression, then do it again, and again as many times as you need to reach the right number?

[Mom in High Heels]

Are there atheists in Islamic countries?  I know there are other religions in some Islamic countries, but is there an issue for non-believers?

[umsami]

Ooh, something that just occurred to me, the 5 times a day prayer. Not all of my students do it, and fewer seem to do it each year. 12 years ago, if someone was at my house and prayer time came up, they asked to perform prayers in my house. Of course, they were welcome to. Several months ago, I had a number of students over, and I rather expected they would all leave together at prayer time (I heard someone's cell go off to remind her of the prayer time), but they didn't. I was perfectly happy to entertain them for another hour or so. :D

 

I think 5-a-day prayer is a pillar of the faith, but it seems very difficult to maintain. Here in the US, if students had to leave classrooms, or jobs or whatnot to perform prayers, or teachers leave classrooms, etc. It seems to be quite an imposition and to really get in the way of life.

 

I guess I'm asking--of how much importance is the 5-time a day prayer? Since Islam is supposed to be available to all people all cultures, etc. how does that work in this world that doesn't just stop for prayer?

 

Thanks again for asking. I didn't realize how many questions I had. I think it comes from being in a  position of being a teacher and feeling I shouldn't drill my students about their faith, yet having so many of that faith.

They may not feel comfortable breaking to go pray at your house, and are counting on having time to sneak it in before the next scheduled prayer. :)

 

People who are traveling and I also believe that Shi'as also combine prayers.  So the noon and afternoon prayer will be combined (they still do the same number of rakats (cycles)…but all at the same time)….and the sunset and evening prayer will be combined.

 

The five times per day prayer is a pillar of the faith.  Super important.  BUT, that doesn't mean that everybody prays it. Are they supposed to?  Yes.  Most try.  Some only pray during Ramadan.  Some even less than that.  It really does vary.  I really think that it's for us, more so than for God.  It can be wonderful to take that time out of your day… do the ritual washing (wudu)…. and just try and connect with the divine.  The key is realizing that it benefits you, while some people view it more as an obligation if that makes sense.  

 

There's a story about how the whole "five" number came to be.  Basically, when Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) went on his night journey… he journeyed up to heaven.   God told the Prophet that Muslims should pray fifty times per day…so on his way back down, he ran into Moses.  Moses said (paraphrasing this is all paraphrasing)…"no way, are you crazy? your people can't pray 50 times per day…go back and ask him for fewer times."  So the number got decreased.  But it was still too much.  Moses told him to go back again…and again.  Eventually, the number five was decided upon. 

[umsami]

Are there atheists in Islamic countries?  I know there are other religions in some Islamic countries, but is there an issue for non-believers?

 

I'm going to guess that there are atheists and agnostics in every country.  I'm not sure how comfortable they would be about sharing that.  It's probably a lot easier to go with the flow.  Some countries still sentence people for leaving Islam.  I don't agree with it, but it is a fact.  My guess is people growing up in those countries know very well what the outcome of publicly declaring disbelief would be, and keep quiet.

[TheBugs]

I haven't commented on this thread, because living overseas I find that a lot of these circumstances are just not the same here, I don't know that my experiences are terribly germaine - for example there are a lot of women here who wear niqab.  I have several women who wear niqab in my English classes, and I have many women in my extended in-law family and many close friends who wear it.  I don't wear it myself, but I don't have any automatic associations with it either -- I know women who have been pushed to wear it and some who have insisted on wearing it despite pressure to do the opposite.  For the vast majority it's just a personal choice without much/any pressure for or against.   

 

But I do see in general a lot of judgment within and without the Muslim community over it -- people who wear it are such-and-such, people who don't wear it are such-and-such.  I guess I've gotten to the point I'm so jaded, it just seems like in every culture there is always this all-permeating judgementalism over what women wear that I ultimately find depressing, I guess. 

 

Thank you for contributing to the thread because I find it very interesting to hear about the circumstances overseas. As to my personal experience with niqab, if you don't count London's Edgeware Road, I have only really been around women who wear niqab when they are not wearing it. Such as at a party or a women only event. For example, I recently went on homeschool field trip and a lady in niqab removed the face covering when it was evident the staff at the place we were at (all presumably non-Muslim) happened to only be women. 

 

At a party, everyone takes off their abayas and niqabs (if that is how they dress) and they are wearing the hair nicely and wearing dresses or jeans and tshirts. 

 

I think there are many reasons a person may choose niqab. I personally do not. Some may even come at it from a feminist view point, saying it is up to me who gets look at me.

[Mom in High Heels]

Oh, oh, I have another question!  In Germany, there were loads of Muslims, and while they covered their heads, the younger girls (teens to mid-20's I would guess)  wore very, very tight clothing, and were caked in makeup.  How is that considered modest?  Their mothers were usually conservatively dressed, but not the daughters.  Is this becoming normal?

[Mom in High Heels]

Thanks for answering.  BTW, I don't think it's immodest, because they weren't showing half their ass when they bent down, which is a HUGE pet peeve of mine, I was just curious.   Also, please don't think I inferring that they were bad Muslims, I was just curious.

[LifeLovePassion]

What does "um" mean at the beginning of the usernames?

[Rosie_0801]

Oh, oh, I have another question!  In Germany, there were loads of Muslims, and while they covered their heads, the younger girls (teens to mid-20's I would guess)  wore very, very tight clothing, and were caked in makeup.  How is that considered modest?  Their mothers were usually conservatively dressed, but not the daughters.  Is this becoming normal?

 

I used to see that a fair bit here in Oz, though I'm seeing it less and less now. I'll bet every single one of those girls started wearing hijab when she had kids. :lol:

[idnib]

I thought you could remove your covering around men you could not marry like your father, brothers, and sons.  Is this not the case?

 

That is the case. We live in a different country, though, so she had not seen my father for years when this happened. That, combined with the fact that she's completely gone off the deep end with this religious conservatism, made her decide he was more like a stranger than an uncle. He found this very insulting after doing many things for her from afar, such as paying for her wedding after her father died and her mom's mental illness went into overdrive. Hence, their fight.

 

My point in posting her story was that sometimes the women really do cover and move in a more conservative direction on their own, against the wishes of the men around them, in this case her husband and my dad. It's not always the men making them do it.

[Kate in Arabia]

What does "um" mean at the beginning of the usernames?

 

Where I live, this is the first part of your "kunya," kind of an honorific name.  It is common here to be called by "Mother of [your oldest child]" or "Father of [your oldest child]".  They don't use Mr. and Mrs, if your name was Mrs. Jane Smith and your oldest child was Mark, here they wouldn't call you Mrs. Smith they'd call you Umm Mark. 

 

Perhaps relatedly, when women get married here they don't take their husband's last name, so there really isn't a term for Mrs. -- you can call someone a girl, a woman or an older woman, but there isn't really a term like that for a married woman, kwim?

 

Where it gets fun (to me) is when people play around with kunyas, so for example there is a famous figure in Islamic history called "Abu Hurayrah" which means "father of a kitten," because he liked cats.  Most people don't even know his real name, they just know his kunya.  Or a name for centipede in Arabic, which is "um arba' wa arba'een," literally "the mother of 44."

[Laurie4b]

Could anyone point me to Muslim sites that denounce terrorism? What about Muslim sites that support religious freedom? I remember reading something about a Muslim leader speaking out against the case of Meriam in Sudan (don't recall her last name, but she was arrested for her Christian faith because her father was Muslim, even though she said that he had left her Christian mother when she was young and she was raised Christian.) 

 

I just got one of "those" emails about Muslims not speaking out and would like to send evidence to the contrary. I know the mainstream media does not tend to report that.

[Laurie4b]

Send them each of these links, individually lol

http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php

 

Excellent! Thanks. I would still like some about Muslim on Christian violence in the Middle East or about Meriam in Sudan if anyone has those.

[6packofun]

Forgive me for what is probably an ignorant question.  I'm not sure if it's "political" or just religious.  lol  What is the difference between a Shiite and Sunni Muslim?  I ask because it's in the news so much right now and the only way I've ever looked at it is like denominations in Christianity.  But is that even an acceptable comparison?  Are the differences doctrinal, if that's the proper term?

[SeaConquest]

I have a few questions, since the thread was resurrected.

 

If you convert to Islam, do you get to pick which traditions you follow? Meaning, could you choose to follow the pillars of the Shia if you are an Asian or American convert? 

 

Regarding converts, how are they viewed generally within Islam? Do born Muslims have a higher status or are all treated equally -- theoretically and in practice.

 

I have always been fascinated by Islam, but, as a Jew, I tend to feel reluctant getting into theological discussions with religious Muslims or visiting Islamic historical sites and mosques. Do you feel that most Muslims in your circles tend to feel distance or animosity towards Jews? If yes, what steps do you think that Jews could take to bring our faiths closer together? (I don't necessarily mean this as a political question, but more on an everyday, interpersonal basis.)

 

  

 

 

[Kate in Arabia]

Forgive me for what is probably an ignorant question.  I'm not sure if it's "political" or just religious.  lol  What is the difference between a Shiite and Sunni Muslim?  I ask because it's in the news so much right now and the only way I've ever looked at it is like denominations in Christianity.  But is that even an acceptable comparison?  Are the differences doctrinal, if that's the proper term?

 

As mentioned, the split started early.  There were several serious events that happened early on between the Sunni and Shi'a, and if you look at the overall history of the region it seems an almost constant overthrow of a Shi'a group by a Sunni group that is then overthrown by a Shi'a group that is then overthrown... if you look at the "classical period" of Islam, major Sunni scholars and major Shi'a scholars interacted and learned from each other, but the scholarly traditions did develop somewhat autonomously.

 

I, personally, don't see the Shi'a as being so different from the Sunni, I see them as fellow Muslims, etc. etc.  But I have run into a fair amount of people in my travels who still feel quite strongly on this matter.  As we're reading through SOTW my kids have been struck by the Protestant/Catholic conflicts in Europe -- I wonder if there are still people historically from one side of that conflict who harbor animosity towards the other...

[Kate in Arabia]

 Do you feel that most Muslims in your circles tend to feel distance or animosity towards Jews? If yes, what steps do you think that Jews could take to bring our faiths closer together? (I don't necessarily mean this as a political question, but more on an everyday, interpersonal basis.)

 

Most, no.  Some, yes.  How I look at it, the more personal interaction I can get, the better.   Before moving overseas I seriously was wanting to set up a Jewish/Muslim playgroup.  I make a concerted effort to confront my kids about some of the attitudes they are exposed to here (anti-Semitic is one, racism is a more prevalent other), but I think it would be even better if they could have Jewish friends.   To my knowledge, they do not.  Yet.  ;)

[Guest retronomy]

Hi, I was actually looking at a thread about something school related here and found this. This will probably be long so thank you for reading if you do!

 

I'm almost 16 and really drawn to Islam. Maybe that sounds weird. I just don't know how to put it. The majority of my online friends are Muslim. I'm taking Arabic this coming year through school and I plan to teach myself about the history and culture. I also plan to apply for a couple of exchange programs. 

 

I guess what I'd call myself now would be agnostic. I just don't believe we can know if there's a god. I think my mother believes in god but she's not really into religion and hasn't been since her father died when she was around my age. My dad was raised as some branch (sorry, don't know the term here?) of Christianity, can't remember which, but is an atheist now and has been for probably most of his adult life. I've think I've been to a Presbyterian, a Unitarian Universalist, and a Baptist church. They were all pretty long ago because my parents didn't want to force any certain religion on me and I never really enjoyed attending any church we went to. I called myself atheist for a while, probably starting around age 10. I started identifying as agnostic around age 13. I probably would've called myself that before if I had heard of the term. 

 

I really like the idea of being involved in a religion in general, and as I've said I just feel drawn to Islam somehow. I'd like to learn more about it. Does anyone have any advice on where to start? Visiting a mosque, reading the quran, or just plain old researching it? I have tried researching a bit but I feel like I'm searching the wrong things because I haven't found anything that helpful. Will I be lost if I/will it be useless to just start reading the quran without having any real knowledge of Islam? Would asking someone at a mosque be helpful? There seem to be 2 near me and something called an Islamic Center, but the Islamic Center's website isn't the best and I don't really know what they offer. I don't want to go to a mosque and disrupt people if they're going to feel disrespected by my current agnosticism/lack of knowledge. 

 

I also don't know how to get past my agnosticism. Obviously there's a chance that being a muslim isn't at all right for me, and I will always be agnostic, but I do want to be very open minded about it and right now I'm just at a place where I can't fathom people knowing that there's a god. 

[Shelly in IL]

My son knows a Muslim girl who was put into child protective services after her father beat her for dating a Christian. My son, taken by her beauty, asked her out a couple years later. We advocated against it very strongly - I don't think he understood the ramifications, or hadn't thought about it - and once her thought about it, he backed out. She was very upset, and didn't understand that my son was trying to protect her. Is this custom still so prevalent? Her incident with her parents happened approx. 2 years ago.

[Laurie4b]

I applaud what you're trying to do here.

 

But, honestly, people sending "those kinds of emails" aren't going to listen to you. If you're interested in learning what Shakspeare wrote, you see a play or grab a book. You don't spam people with hateful emails about Hamlet. You know what I'm saying.

 

Point them to a local mosque, or grab a Quran and drop it on their coffee table. Set them up on friendly picnics with some Muslims they can get to know. Have them read this forum haha. Let them watch videos of Tariq Ramadan, Hamza Yusuf, Zaid Shakur, Suhaib Webb, uh...Siraj Wahhaj...and others.

 

But just telling them "nuh-uh," while it might be effective for you (and go with God! if it is), but ime it's really not. Islam is a fashionable demon in some people's eyes right now. And just like I couldn't have been persuaded in 1994 that I wouldn't ALWAYS want to wear teal corduroy pants, a lot of people just need the salve of time and maturity and wisdom to outgrow it.

 

I get the feeling the people that send out (and appreciate) stuff like that want our version of the Pope to emerge from the ether and tell them what the offical position is. But we have no centralized authority, quite, quite on purpose. They don't seem to get that, at all. We have scholars, prayer leaders and what amount to counselors and teachers. We don't have one dude or one group of dudes who speak for all of us. It just isn't going to happen. So, statistically, it's about 1,571,200,000 Muslims in the world. How many are psychopaths? How many are using the religion for nefarious puposes? NOT A LOT. But people all through time (and today) have distorted the messages of their religion to be a*sholes. 

 

While you may be right, I would like to try. This particular email was sent by someone in the generation who is naive and doesn't recognize fake emails. The person thought it was real. The email was supposedly from a German who noted how people in Germany didn't speak up even though they may not have been hardcore Nazis, etc. It then goes on to note that Muslims aren't speaking up either.

 

And truly, one *rarely* reads about Muslims speaking out in the mainstream press. When the press won't cover it, how would the average non-Muslim know that Muslims speak out?  I still can't find the source where a Muslim scholar had condemned the actions of the Sudanese with regard to the Christian woman they've jailed because she won't recant her faith. I am *actively looking* and cannot find it--or any other. So I don't think it's fair to say that people who think Muslims should speak out wouldn't have their minds changed by reading examples in which they have spoken out.

 

 

[Guest retronomy]

nvm 

 

[MBM]

I stayed up way too late last night reading this thread, but I really appreciate having done so. Thank you to all who have answered questions! :)

 

I have a question about terminology. Is the wearer of a naqib called a naqibi?

 

My SIL and BIL lived in Saudi Arabia for 10 years and when she went out, she wore a burka.

 

For anyone interested, there do exist organizations that are trying to promote peace and understanding between groups. I live in an area that has many Jewish families as well as Muslims and I know that teens here have participated in the organization Seeds of Peace. I've also read about Jewish, Muslim and Christian women who get together for discussions. Unfortunately, I can't recall the name. I do remember the women became good friends, though.

 

[KarenNC]

As we're reading through SOTW my kids have been struck by the Protestant/Catholic conflicts in Europe -- I wonder if there are still people historically from one side of that conflict who harbor animosity towards the other...

 

I can't speak to the situation in Europe in general and I don't know where things currently stand in Ireland, the area of Europe where I believe Protestant/Catholic violence was the worst in modern times (though that has a lot more to do with hundreds of years of political history between England and Ireland than with religion). In the US, yes, there are groups on the Protestant side who harbor a lot of animosity toward Catholics. They aren't mainstream or a huge subgroup by any means, I don't think, but they are there. I clearly remember seeing comic books sold in the Christian bookstore when I was growing up about how the Pope was the AntiChrist, Catholics aren't Christians, etc. You can google "are Catholics Christian" and "is the Pope the AntiChrist" and get numerous hits (respectively, showing "no" and "yes" to the questions). Googling "are Protestants Christians" did get some hits from Catholics saying they are not, but I am much less familiar with Roman Catholic or Orthodox culture, so can't say if that represents a few "out there" posters or a larger group.