How do you know what you believe?

[Guest]

Me, too. I have to say that really examining the apologetics that I had been using for years as a missionary was part of what helped undermine my faith. Allowing myself to really understand the depth of the circular reasoning and other fallacies took my breath away. I was honestly embarrassed that I had been promoting these things.

 

The "fact" that there are 40 authors who all say the same thing (they don't, but that's not my point here) is not at all compelling. There are dozens of gospels that didn't make it into the Bible. The Bible was compiled by sifting through these and selecting the ones that worked best to support the prevailing beliefs at the time. Some were even kicked out over the years. These 40 weren't miraculously written to make one perfect book. They were selected from among many, many "inspired writings" to create some sort of vaguely coherent whole.

 

I think the "fan fiction" analogy is terrific. Well, look! How can this Harry Potter fan fiction anthology all have the same basic characters and ideas and themes if it wasn't all directly managed/ghost-written by J.K. Rowling? And, not one single Twilight story slipped in there! It's clearly a miracle. :D

Exactly. And, me, too. It was in examining what basis there is for belief, so that I could teach my children, that made me realize there was not the proof I was looking for and expected to find. I could not teach my children to rely on such poor logic.

 

The "fan fic" concept is excellent!

[livetoread]

One of the worrisome aspects about religion for me is the idea that one really cannot know, and yet they proceed as if they do. In other words, it doesn't matter that one cannot know, they believe, and that's enough. In my opinion, that puts us all as a society in jeopardy of being targets of some crime one cannot possibly defend themselves against.

 

Yes, exactly! Well said.

[mamaraby]

The "fan fic" concept is excellent!

I thought so too, though wish I could take credit for it. Someone else here used it first, just wish I could have remembered who.... :0)

[Rivka]

The Jews don't accept the NT scriptures for good reason. But why they don't accept them only confirms the Christian belief. Both the OT and NT was penned by Jews. The ultimate meaning of the Bible is not favourable towards Jews at all. So why would Jews have written it if it condemned them? It says that they crucified their Messiah, and that they are now put on pause and blinded.

Because they don't believe in Jesus first coming, they do not know how to separate the verses that refer to his first coming from his second coming in the scriptures that they do use. And this is why you are also saying above that Jesus didn't come and fulfil what he had to do, and why he did not become their expected King on earth. He hasn't fulfilled all of the OT scriptures yet, but will when he comes back the second time.

 

I know that's not your main point, I just wanted to explain that small part about the Jews and scripture. You most likely understand that viewpoint anyway.

 

This is incredibly offensive.

 

I know you're trying to convince people of the beauty and perfection of your faith, but it's mighty hard to do that when it prompts you to spew such ugliness.

[milovany]

Teannika, it might be good to read the "Ask an Orthodox Jew" thread.  I learned a lot on this board through comments like what are happening there about where the Jewish people are coming from, and it has helped me in my own Christian faith.  I don't see Jews as a people that need to be converted to Christ anymore.  They have an eternal covenant with God that God still honors and fills.

 

I would highly recommend not posting in that thread to take on the Jewish faith in an attempt to show that Christianity is the only true way.  If that would be your approach over there, forget what I said above.  ;)

[Joanne]

I like reading about the (positive, if possible) impact of world religions. I few years ago, I read "WorldPerfect: The The Jewish Impact on Civilization". I was interesting and engaging and evelated my already positive level of respect for those who claim Jewish faith.

 

http://www.amazon.com/WorldPerfect-Jewish-Civilization-Ken-Spiro-ebook/dp/B001GNC9NG/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1398782908&sr=1-1&keywords=world+perfect

 

I just thought I'd post about it since I know I am not alone here in enjoying reading about these topics.

 

[Rosie_0801]

I like reading about the (positive, if possible) impact of world religions. I few years ago, I read "WorldPerfect: The The Jewish Impact on Civilization". I was interesting and engaging and evelated my already positive level of respect for those who claim Jewish faith.

 

http://www.amazon.com/WorldPerfect-Jewish-Civilization-Ken-Spiro-ebook/dp/B001GNC9NG/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1398782908&sr=1-1&keywords=world+perfect

 

I just thought I'd post about it since I know I am not alone here in enjoying reading about these topics.

 

That sounds fun. Eliana has inspired me to do a Jewish reading challenge for the Book a Week thread next year.

[umsami]

I like reading about the (positive, if possible) impact of world religions. I few years ago, I read "WorldPerfect: The The Jewish Impact on Civilization". I was interesting and engaging and evelated my already positive level of respect for those who claim Jewish faith.

 

http://www.amazon.com/WorldPerfect-Jewish-Civilization-Ken-Spiro-ebook/dp/B001GNC9NG/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1398782908&sr=1-1&keywords=world+perfect

 

I just thought I'd post about it since I know I am not alone here in enjoying reading about these topics.

 

Ooh, that looks good.  For a book regarding Arab/Muslims, you can try http://www.amazon.com/The-House-Wisdom-Transformed-Civilization/dp/1608190587/ref=pd_sim_b_4?ie=UTF8&refRID=042F63VCMVAZRD8VQXQ0

 

or

 

 

http://www.amazon.com/The-House-Wisdom-Knowledge-Renaissance/dp/0143120565/ref=pd_sim_b_5?ie=UTF8&refRID=0ACQPP7BC99Y9JEREC3S

[Teannika]

I haven't been able to get back on until now, and I still haven't caught up on all the posts yet. But to briefly reply to the Anti-Semitic comment I am anything but. I pray for the nation of Israel and believe that they will be saved as prophesied.

 

'And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: (Romans 11:26)

 

All I am doing is repeating what the Bible says. They rejected their Messiah.

 

'And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.' (Zechariah 13:6)

[umsami]

Teannika, actually, they didn't reject their Messiah.  If you knew more about the OT and the Jewish prophesies about a Messiah, you would know that Jesus did not qualify.  The Messiah was never meant to be God.  I find it interesting that a Christian believes s/he can lecture Jews about their faith.  http://www.jewfaq.org/mashiach.htm

 

"The word "mashiach" does not mean "savior." The notion of an innocent, divine or semi-divine being who will sacrifice himself to save us from the consequences of our own sins is a purely Christian concept that has no basis in Jewish thought. Unfortunately, this Christian concept has become so deeply ingrained in the English word "messiah" that this English word can no longer be used to refer to the Jewish concept. The word "mashiach" will be used throughout this page."

 

 

[Teannika]

My whole point was not to frame the Jews in a bad light. But to point out that it is Jews who wrote the scriptures who paint them this way, which only adds credence to what is being said. You could understand their enemies writing bad things, but this was their people and their religion that they are writing about. They (the majority) rejected their long awaited messiah. If they had accepted him he would have reigned on the throne. Of course not all Jews at the time rejected him. These were those who penned the NT, and who spread word throughout the regions and began the churches.

 

These were also the eye witnesses to the events that happened. It would be pretty hard to fool the majority of people not only about Jesus, but also other well-known people existing like John the Baptist. Or Paul who was there condemning Stephen to death. The people living at the time would not have been easily fooled, because they lived at this time. Multitudes of people went to see John the Baptist in the wilderness. If there had been no eye witnesses to any of the people written about, then it would be obvious to the Jews at that time and the events would not have taken, been passed on, and churches established.

[Teannika]

 

So what you're explaining is that the hearts of Jews are hardened like the Pharaoh's? I know in the bible Yahweh is a jealous god, "visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me" (Exodus 20:5, Numbers 14:18), but I've never read about a 2000 year punishment. Can you share a scripture verse that explains his wrath against the Jews lasts this long? I'm curious because my understanding is that the bible doesn't say the Jews don't accept Jesus because they have been put on pause and blinded, but because they are followers of Satan (John 8:44 - which might explain how they could have committed deicide - Acts 3:15), and. In other words, modern day Jews are not being punished for the crime of being born to great great great great etc grandparents who killed Jesus 20 centuries ago, but will be punished for individually choosing to reject Jesus (Matthew 12:30; John 3:18). It seems to me it would be one or the other. Or is there a third explanation I'm missing?

 

In any case, the reason Jews say they don't accept the claims of Jesus as messiah is simply because Jesus did not fulfill the messianic prophecies. He didn't embody the personal qualifications of the Messiah, the biblical verses "referring" to Jesus are mistranslations, and what most Christians may not know, this ancient Jewish belief is based on national revelation. You can read more here.

 

 

In all this, you still operate under the mechanics of belief, though. These ideas you're sharing now are beliefs, because, how can one know that God really does harden the hearts of today's Jews worldwide?

 

I have to say, Teannika, although I admire your courage to stand up for something you believe is profoundly good and necessary, I wonder if you can see the blatant anti semitism most readers of this post will see. The idea that "the Jews killed the Christ" is as outdated as registering Jews and keeping them safely segregated from Christian society (the Ukraine notwithstanding). This kind of explanation is used as support for the kind of victim blaming of the Nazi Holocaust and really, centuries of horrifying massacres and forced exiles throughout Europe. I wonder if someone will report your post to the mods because regardless of the ignorance of the shocking nature of your post, it's really quite an offensive line of belief to be arguing. It villainizes an entire ethnicity for a crime that they could not have possibly committed. It's using belief qua evidence in a trial that is not only unjust, immoral, and illogical, but is irrational and dangerous. I hope it's not reported, because I think it should stand. Censorship, in my opinion, is not the answer. Exposing the flaws of an argument for it's ill-conceived foundations is. Reducing the power of those who act on behalf of the supposed will of one who by nature cannot be held accountable (Isaiah 55:8) is. I hope your post gets some good, thoughtful response because this is one avenue to which the OP's question naturally leads: What are the implications of belief without knowledge? One of the worrisome aspects about religion for me is the idea that one really cannot know, and yet they proceed as if they do. In other words, it doesn't matter that one cannot know, they believe, and that's enough. In my opinion, that puts us all as a society in jeopardy of being targets of some crime one cannot possibly defend themselves against.

 

 

 

Oral traditions within one culture's religion written down by different people in different times.

 

Regarding the blinding of the Jews:

 

'7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:

10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.'

(Romans 11)

 

'But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.' (2 Corinthians 3:14)

[Ipsey]

These were also the eye witnesses to the events that happened. It would be pretty hard to fool the majority of people not only about Jesus, but also other well-known people existing like John the Baptist. Or Paul who was there condemning Stephen to death. The people living at the time would not have been easily fooled, because they lived at this time. Multitudes of people went to see John the Baptist in the wilderness. If there had been no eye witnesses to any of the people written about, then it would be obvious to the Jews at that time and the events would not have taken, been passed on, and churches established.

 

We have _no_ external non-Biblical evidence of these things (beyond that churches were established). You're creating a circular argument and you seem incapable of recognizing it. 

 

Beyond that, yes, you've pointed out the verses that have caused many thousands, if not millions, of Jews to die at the hands of Christians. Well done!

[Mom-ninja.]

Ooh, that looks good.  For a book regarding Arab/Muslims, you can try http://www.amazon.com/The-House-Wisdom-Transformed-Civilization/dp/1608190587/ref=pd_sim_b_4?ie=UTF8&refRID=042F63VCMVAZRD8VQXQ0

 

or

 

 

http://www.amazon.com/The-House-Wisdom-Knowledge-Renaissance/dp/0143120565/ref=pd_sim_b_5?ie=UTF8&refRID=0ACQPP7BC99Y9JEREC3S

Those books look interesting. 

 

[WishboneDawn]

I haven't been able to get back on until now, and I still haven't caught up on all the posts yet. But to briefly reply to the Anti-Semitic comment I am anything but. I pray for the nation of Israel and believe that they will be saved as prophesied.

 

'And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: (Romans 11:26)

 

All I am doing is repeating what the Bible says. They rejected their Messiah.

 

'And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.' (Zechariah 13:6)

 

All I am doing is repeating what the Bible says.

 

No. 

 

What the Bible says --------------> 3+ (a-1) = x  (See the intentional use of a variable Albeto? :D)

 

What you're claiming it says ---> 3 - 1 = 2

 

This is because you need it to equal 2 and so what doesn't support your point (the verse from Zechariah in the context of all of Zechariah, that in the context of prophecies as a genre, those in the context of the Ancient Hebrews and the same with Romans) doesn't get plugged into the equation. So the Bible acts as a mirror and ultimately, as a wall. 

 

ETA: And now my use of the mirror metaphor has reminded me of a poem I love:

 

 

Hope Holds to Christ

. . . . . . . .

Hope holds to Christ the mind’s own mirror out 

To take His lovely likeness more and more. 

It will not well, so she would bring about 

An ever brighter burnish than before 

And turns to wash it from her welling eyes

And breathes the blots off all with sighs on sighs. 

Her glass is blest but she as good as blind 

Holds till hand aches and wonders what is there; 

Her glass drinks light, she darkles down behind, 

All of her glorious gainings unaware.

. . . . . . . .

I told you that she turned her mirror dim 

Betweenwhiles, but she sees herself not Him.

. . . . . . . . 

Gerard Manley Hopkins

 

[HRAAB]

You can't use the Bible to validate the Bible.  :banghead:

 

 

 

 

[WishboneDawn]

You can't use the Bible to validate the Bible.  :banghead:

 

I think most of what's being offered by people in this thread isn't going to be recognized, let alone understood and accepted. 

[HRAAB]

Why do people feel the need to prove their faith.  It's faith, after all.  I say I walked away from Christianity because I didn't believe.  I guess to be truthful, I walked away because I could not conjure up enough faith to profess beliefs as facts.  I lacked faith to own something that I could not reason out.  I'll own that; I lack faith.

 

Faith is fine.  I respect people of faith.  But trying to prove your faith in the supernatural is...I don't know... cheapening somehow besides futile.  I'm not saying this at all well.  Maybe it's because if it could be proved, there would be no need for faith.

[SadieMarie]

Every religion claims "the truth" somehow.  Religions claim to be, if not the only then at least, the best path to "God".  And once you join the "right" church, others, those who are members of different religions or churches, become "wrong".  And how wrong they are, and how much force you are entitled to use to show them how wrong they are, varies though history and by group, but it is usually be there at some level.  

 

"Hey, it doesn't really matter what you believe or what you call your god, or what holy book you use, we are all equal in our quest for truth and faith no matter where that quest takes us."  Is there a church or religion that says this?  That might be one I would be interested in lol.  

[Rosie_0801]

"Hey, it doesn't really matter what you believe or what you call your god, or what holy book you use, we are all equal in our quest for truth and faith no matter where that quest takes us."  Is there a church or religion that says this?  That might be one I would be interested in lol.  

 

Yours? Who says one can't DIY religion? Oh wait… :p

[Teannika]

You can't use the Bible to validate the Bible. :banghead:

It is called manuscript evidence. We trust manuscript evidence as evidence for other characters in history. And the amount of scriptures that we have found and have as evidence is far more than for any other source. The scriptures are also historical evidence, in that they fit history. And they are also prophetic evidence. We only have to look at the Jews now, today, and see that what was written in the long distant past is being fulfilled.

 

The Jews are now a nation again. And they are returning to their homeland by droves. As foretold. This is nothing that man could have manipulated.

 

Deuteronomy 30:3 'That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.'

 

Jeremiah 29:14 '14 And I will be found of you, saith the LORD: and I will turn away your captivity, and I will gather you from all the nations, and from all the places whither I have driven you, saith the LORD; and I will bring you again into the place whence I caused you to be carried away captive.'

 

 

The Jews are also in the process of building the third temple to re-establish temple sacrifices.

 

It's amazing that after all the persecution that they still even exist as a nation.

 

So, all I am doing is weighing up the evidence. The truth is that I am unpopular because I am so pro-Israel. And I also recognise the Messianic Jews who also accept Jesus.

[Dicentra]

I've read the whole thread. :)  I thought the OP might be interested in some of the responses in a thread I started back in 2013 on a similar topic:

Extreme rationality and faith

 

I've also just started reading "The Faith Instinct" by Nicolas Wade.  I know the idea of natural selection working on a group level as opposed to an individual level is somewhat controversial but I find the premise of the book interesting.  It seems, to me, to speak to a question I've long had: Why has religion and religious behaviour managed to stay so influential and popular for so long when (in my mind) it's so illogical?  I know that proponents of religion have answered that question by saying that the reason religion has endured is because the object of the religion (the deity/deities) is real and deep down we all know it so, therefore, religion continues.  It's the "if millions of people believe..." argument.  It's not an argument that I accept but the question behind it is one that I've thought about a lot.  I also know that opponents of religion have answered the same question by discussing issues such as power, politics, and money and I don't disagree that those things certainly have played a role in keep religion alive and well.  I just find Wade's ideas thought-provoking.  If our propensity towards religion is evolutionary, then it stands that we can evolve away from that propensity.  Religion will go away when societies no longer need it to survive.  I think we're on that track but haven't quite gotten there yet.

 

Sorry if this is off topic, OP.  Just some rambling thoughts of mine. :)

 

Has anyone else read "The Faith Instinct"?

[IdahoHomeschooler]

I haven't been able to get back on until now, and I still haven't caught up on all the posts yet. But to briefly reply to the Anti-Semitic comment I am anything but. I pray for the nation of Israel and believe that they will be saved as prophesied.

 

'And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: (Romans 11:26)

 

All I am doing is repeating what the Bible says. They rejected their Messiah.

 

'And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.' (Zechariah 13:6)

 

No. No. No. You are not just repeating what the Bible says, you are very deliberately cherry-picking scriptures, taken out of context, in order to line up with your beliefs. This is a VERY dangerous practice, spiritually, and one that I bet has led to manymany former Christians losing their faith. You may be in denial about your anti-Semitism, but it is right.here. in black and white!

 

[Teannika]

No. No. No. You are not just repeating what the Bible says, you are very deliberately cherry-picking scriptures, taken out of context, in order to line up with your beliefs. This is a VERY dangerous practice, spiritually, and one that I bet has led to manymany former Christians losing their faith. You may be in denial about your anti-Semitism, but it is right.here. in black and white!

 

I can't see how I am anti-semetic if I believe that the nation of Israel is going to be more blessed than it ever has been in the past. The bible says that those who bless Israel will be blessed, and those who curse Israel will be cursed.

 

There are Christians who are pro-Israel like I am, and then there are Christians who are "replacement theology" who believe that they have replaced the Jews spiritually.

 

 

I'm obviously only giving a small sample of supporting verses in my posts. Because a) I know lots of verses won't be read but skipped over. And b) this isn't a Bible study.

 

I study the bible as a whole, as instructed to "rightly divide" it. The Bible addresses three groups of people: Jews, Gentiles, and the church. I try to keep who's mail is who's in focus. And also to look for multiple witnesses in scripture. There are many OT verses that talk of God chastening the nation of Israel, it's not a NT Gentile thing.

[Jen in NY]

I've read the whole thread. :)  I thought the OP might be interested in some of the responses in a thread I started back in 2013 on a similar topic:

Extreme rationality and faith

 

I've also just started reading "The Faith Instinct" by Nicolas Wade.  I know the idea of natural selection working on a group level as opposed to an individual level is somewhat controversial but I find the premise of the book interesting.  It seems, to me, to speak to a question I've long had: Why has religion and religious behaviour managed to stay so influential and popular for so long when (in my mind) it's so illogical?  I know that proponents of religion have answered that question by saying that the reason religion has endured is because the object of the religion (the deity/deities) is real and deep down we all know it so, therefore, religion continues.  It's the "if millions of people believe..." argument.  It's not an argument that I accept but the question behind it is one that I've thought about a lot.  I also know that opponents of religion have answered the same question by discussing issues such as power, politics, and money and I don't disagree that those things certainly have played a role in keep religion alive and well.  I just find Wade's ideas thought-provoking.  If our propensity towards religion is evolutionary, then it stands that we can evolve away from that propensity.  Religion will go away when societies no longer need it to survive.  I think we're on that track but haven't quite gotten there yet.

 

Sorry if this is off topic, OP.  Just some rambling thoughts of mine. :)

 

Has anyone else read "The Faith Instinct"?

Not "The Faith Instinct" but right now I'm into "The Evolution of God" by Robert Wright. It's fascinating.... putting "The Faith Instinct" on my list. (PS: You can hear some of what R.W. has to say on bloggingheads.tv in The Wright Show tab.)

[StartingOver]

They say Good only gives you what you can handle. Well I got more than I could handle starting at age five. I was fifteen before I figured out that I don't believe. I seriously kept trying. I am good with my path, and respect the choice of others no matter their path.

[Jasperstone]

Can you mention some of these things that are being revealed ? I'm curious.

 

Thanks.

 

 

Me thinks, I would have to open a new thread. As, it's not a light or easy subject. :)

 

I will have to come back to this sometime in the future, as we have had an enormous emotional ride with events in the last fortnight, so I'm recovering, and not really up to putting up a new thread at this stage. Sorry about that.

[Jasperstone]

But nearly every world religion can claim a list of prophecies that "came true."  Why doesn't it prove the truth of all of them?

 

I think it has more to do with the fact that, if you make enough vague predictions, at least a few of them are bound to line up with actual events over the span of thousands of years.

 

 

I don't know any other book that has had it's prophecies 100% correct like the Bible has.

 

There are only a few more prophecies to be fulfilled before the end of this era. And the prophecies aren't vague, but take a bit of study, and prayers for God to reveal them to you etc...

 

 

[Jasperstone]

I can't see how I am anti-semetic if I believe that the nation of Israel is going to be more blessed than it ever has been in the past. The bible says that those who bless Israel will be blessed, and those who curse Israel will be cursed.

 

There are Christians who are pro-Israel like I am, and then there are Christians who are "replacement theology" who believe that they have replaced the Jews spiritually.

 

 

I'm obviously only giving a small sample of supporting verses in my posts. Because a) I know lots of verses won't be read but skipped over. And B) this isn't a Bible study.

 

I study the bible as a whole, as instructed to "rightly divide" it. The Bible addresses three groups of people: Jews, Gentiles, and the church. I try to keep who's mail is who's in focus. And also to look for multiple witnesses in scripture. There are many OT verses that talk of God chastening the nation of Israel, it's not a NT Gentile thing.

 

 

Me too- pro Israel!!! :thumbup:

 

Thank you for your posts Teannika. I'm sorry that you have had so many turn against you. I know that your intentions were pure and just!

 

I see what you write is in the Bible, and I love the way you explain it!

 

((((HUGS)))) ^_^

[WishboneDawn]

No. No. No. You are not just repeating what the Bible says, you are very deliberately cherry-picking scriptures, taken out of context, in order to line up with your beliefs. This is a VERY dangerous practice, spiritually, and one that I bet has led to manymany former Christians losing their faith. You may be in denial about your anti-Semitism, but it is right.here. in black and white!

 

Except that it requires a paradigm shift to see ands the poster isn't willing to make that shift. To her it's simple truth. There's no arguing it because it's in the Bible. She's acting from a place of love and so no bad can possibly come of it. She is utterly uninterested in the points we might make because we are wrong. She is so convinced of the truth and beauty of her view of the Bible that she can't see the effect it's having on us, even on those of us, like me, who are Christian (although I'm not sure she'd allow that I really am a true Christian). We keep asking her to do the one thing, understand our POV, that he paradigm blocks her from doing.

 

A discussion is an exchange of ideas. That is not happening here. We're effectively being preached to.

[WishboneDawn]

Me too- pro Israel!!! :thumbup:

 

Thank you for your posts Teannika. I'm sorry that you have had so many turn against you. I know that your intentions were pure and just!

 

I see what you write is in the Bible, and I love the way you explain it!

 

((((HUGS)))) ^_^

I think it's sad but telling that challenges are viewed as people turning against her rather then opportunities to explore other POVs.

[Teannika]

Except that it requires a paradigm shift to see ands the poster isn't willing to make that shift. To her it's simple truth. There's no arguing it because it's in the Bible. She's acting from a place of love and so no bad can possibly come of it. She is utterly uninterested in the points we might make because we are wrong. She is so convinced of the truth and beauty of her view of the Bible that she can't see the effect it's having on us, even on those of us, like me, who are Christian (although I'm not sure she'd allow that I really am a true Christian). We keep asking her to do the one thing, understand our POV, that he paradigm blocks her from doing.

 

A discussion is an exchange of ideas. That is not happening here. We're effectively being preached to.

I am listening. (It's hard for anyone on the other end of a computer line hearing someone listening though.) I've been replying to peoples comments, not trying to bring up my new points to "preach". I was also trying to bow out when Iast replied to Quill, so that I'm not here doing all the talking. I'm happy to leave it.

 

People then began to judge my heart as anti-Semitic. Why would I hate any Jew? So I wanted to further explain why I am not so that people aren't left thinking the worst of me, about something that isn't true.

 

I also agree with the advice that many people have already given the OP. Which is: Seek truth. Be honest with yourself. Don't be intimidated by other peoples beliefs or pressured by that. Leave the Christian school so that you are not living a contradiction and being a hypocrite etc.

[Teannika]

Except that it requires a paradigm shift to see ands the poster isn't willing to make that shift. To her it's simple truth. There's no arguing it because it's in the Bible. She's acting from a place of love and so no bad can possibly come of it. She is utterly uninterested in the points we might make because we are wrong. She is so convinced of the truth and beauty of her view of the Bible that she can't see the effect it's having on us, even on those of us, like me, who are Christian (although I'm not sure she'd allow that I really am a true Christian). We keep asking her to do the one thing, understand our POV, that he paradigm blocks her from doing.

 

A discussion is an exchange of ideas. That is not happening here. We're effectively being preached to.

I'll just ask you to clarify please (so that I'm not accused of not listening, and not being able to reason and shift my point of view) what exactly is "our POV" that you want me to see? Are you speaking on everyone's behalf, or did you really just mean your own personal POV? Something specific or something general?

 

I'm not looking to argue in any way, and will accept your response, but I genuinely want it spelled out so that I am not assuming the wrong thing.

[Hoot]

I'll just ask you to clarify please (so that I'm not accused of not listening, and not being able to reason and shift my point of view) what exactly is "our POV" that you want me to see? Are you speaking on everyone's behalf, or did you really just mean your own personal POV? Something specific or something general?

 

I'm not looking to argue in any way, and will accept your response, but I genuinely want it spelled out so that I am not assuming the wrong thing.

 

I am not WishboneDawn, and she can correct me if I'm wrong here, but I think she's simply asking you to be more gracious and consider other views besides your own as being valid.  No one is asking you to agree, but your posts come across as being very closed-minded and inflexible.  You are welcome to your own views, but you have been very much "preaching" from your very first post.  You come across as being more concerned with your own personal rightness than with promoting an engaging discussion.  I do appreciate your point of view even though, coming from a very similar biblical background, I disagree with you.  However, you will get further by being a bit more open-minded to others' viewpoints instead of simply rebutting them with your own interpretation of biblical scripture. 

 

I'm not sure what flavor of Christianity you are coming from but perhaps your views would be more suited to your own "Ask a..." thread as they are meant to be more explanatory in nature.    

[Hoot]

People then began to judge my heart as anti-Semitic.

 

:001_rolleyes:

 

Let's not be dramatic, okay?  No one is judging your heart.  People are responding to your words. 

[Teannika]

I am not WishboneDawn, and she can correct me if I'm wrong here, but I think she's simply asking you to be more gracious and consider other views besides your own as being valid. No one is asking you to agree, but your posts come across as being very closed-minded and inflexible. You are welcome to your own views, but you have been very much "preaching" from your very first post. You come across as being more concerned with your own personal rightness than with promoting an engaging discussion. I do appreciate your point of view even though, coming from a very similar biblical background, I disagree with you. However, you will get further by being a bit more open-minded to others' viewpoints instead of simply rebutting them with your own interpretation of biblical scripture.

 

I'm not sure what flavor of Christianity you are coming from but perhaps your views would be more suited to your own "Ask a..." thread as they are meant to be more explanatory in nature.

 

Okay, well all I can do is apologise and bow out. I do like to be challenged which is why I tend to get involved in these kind of deeper discussions. Speaking to people of the opposing viewpoint keeps one on their toes. I like that.

 

I tried to make some points that may not have been considered before, and so I wasn't trying to beat a dead horse.

 

I can't say that I'm really interested in starting an "Ask a thread.." I'm not sure what my motive would be in doing so. I've shared that I don't go to church, so I wouldn't be representing one. I've shared here in this thread because I've wanted to help and hopefully offer some alternative insights to show how I know what I believe. Which is why I've shared some different angles, even if centred on biblical evidence.

[Teannika]

:001_rolleyes:

 

Let's not be dramatic, okay? No one is judging your heart. People are responding to your words.

Hello, how was this a dramatic comment? It's judging my heart condition, saying it's there in black and white that I am anti-Semitic. When clearly it is my position not being understood. I'm not taking it personally. I just think that forum etiquette is thinking the best of someone, and if you're not sure what they are saying then ask them to further clarify.

[TracyP]

I just think that forum etiquette is thinking the best of someone, and if you're not sure what they are saying then ask them to further clarify.

 

How about you apply these principles to the Jewish women on this forum.

 

[Hoot]

Hello, how was this a dramatic comment? It's judging my heart condition, saying it's there in black and white that I am anti-Semitic. When clearly it is my position not being understood. I'm not taking it personally. I just think that forum etiquette is thinking the best of someone, and if you're not sure what they are saying then ask them to further clarify.

I perceive it as dramatic because you are twisting the meaning of a phrase to make it sound like you are being victimized. Again, NO ONE judged your heart, which is what I was responding to. They were responding to your words.

 

It is not that your opinion is misunderstood; it is simply another person's interpretation of that opinion as being anti-semitic in nature. You believe what you believe and others are responding to your written words with what they believe. If you are going to reply on a thread like this, you need to be open to the possibility that others are going to disagree with you, and vehemently at that. You are trying to control others' beliefs by stating and restating your own opinion.

[milovany]

SOOOOoooooo (said in best

voice) --

 

What are you thinking of the different Ask A threads, Contessa?  Some have been very interesting. 

[Hoot]

SOOOOoooooo (said in best

voice) --

 

What are you thinking of the different Ask A threads, Contessa?  Some have been very interesting. 

 

I am finding them fascinating!  I picked up several books over the weekend on some different belief systems, but I love being able to ask a real person for clarification.  That back and forth is so much more helpful than just reading a book. 

I have to admit though, I'm finding your thread to be the hardest to read because I have so very little as a frame of reference to even understand your explanations.  It shows me just how ignorant I have been though, which is fantastic.  :)

[milovany]

I have to admit though, I'm finding your thread to be the hardest to read because I have so very little as a frame of reference to even understand your explanations.  It shows me just how ignorant I have been though, which is fantastic.  :)

 

How well I relate!  Even five years after conversion, I'm still like, "What, huh?" many times.  But I have found it the safest, most healing place (for my soul). Don't hesitate to ask any questions that come up.  Happy to attempt a reply.  I've thought about asking the Orthodox abbot of a monastery to stop by once in awhile to field questions (he has an active internet ministry), but I don't want to impose either. 

 

If you need a lighthearted break, watch some of the Kid Snippets videos linked above.  They are hilarious. 

[Jane in NC]

Hello, how was this a dramatic comment? It's judging my heart condition, saying it's there in black and white that I am anti-Semitic. When clearly it is my position not being understood. I'm not taking it personally. I just think that forum etiquette is thinking the best of someone, and if you're not sure what they are saying then ask them to further clarify.

 

Admittedly I have never heard the expression "judge my heart" so here is my take.  These words said to me that you have moved beyond an opinion to an intrinsic belief that you feel cannot be questioned.  But this thread is about belief--and questioning those beliefs.

 

I understand feeling challenged when someone else questions your beliefs.  Quite honestly challenges can be good.  They can make us grow. 

 

Am I "judging your heart"?  Is your heart the center of your being?  The vessel of your beliefs?  Do you see questioning as "judging"?

[Guest]

My two-cents: the way this thread is going is a perfect example to me of how the tradition of Christian belief butts up against modern sensibilities of tolerance and acceptance. Of course, I can only speak to the way I was raised, but the way I was raised truly DID NOT accept different beliefs, especially any belief system that did not have Jesus as Messiah and Savior as the centerpiece. Even when I was just a young teen, the exclusive nature of my family and church's beliefs troubled me VERY much. I never could buy that billions of people throughout history - including loving, giving, decent, wonderful folks - were damned because their beliefs and traditions differed from the beliefs and traditions I was taught. I'm afraid to even share this - my parents did not believe Catholics were "true" Christians. I was in my twenties before I realized that "are they Christian OR Catholic?" Was a faulty distinction!

 

In the Christian tradition I was taught, one truly does believe that those who do not accept the (Protestant, KJV) Bible as the perfect, complete, inerrant Word of God are lost, or blinded, or not actual Christians. So, it does not surprise me one bit to see posts that speak the way my parents do, as well as my church-mates did many years ago.

[Hoot]

I don't know any other book that has had it's prophecies 100% correct like the Bible has.

 

There are only a few more prophecies to be fulfilled before the end of this era. And the prophecies aren't vague, but take a bit of study, and prayers for God to reveal them to you etc...

Would you care to elaborate more on these prophecies and fulfillments? I have heard this before, but no-one (in the churches I've attended or my family) seems able to give actual details. What are these specific prophecies? How/when were they fulfilled? I'm looking for things that are irrefutable, unable to be construed differently, and independently corroborated somewhere other than just the bible. I have yet to find anything that fits all the criteria.

[Joanne]

My two-cents: the way this thread is going is a perfect example to me of how the tradition of Christian belief butts up against modern sensibilities of tolerance and acceptance. Of course, I can only speak to the way I was raised, but the way I was raised truly DID NOT accept different beliefs, especially any belief system that did not have Jesus as Messiah and Savior as the centerpiece. Even when I was just a young teen, the exclusive nature of my family and church's beliefs troubled me VERY much. I never could buy that billions of people throughout history - including loving, giving, decent, wonderful folks - were damned because their beliefs and traditions differed from the beliefs and traditions I was taught. I'm afraid to even share this - my parents did not believe Catholics were "true" Christians. I was in my twenties before I realized that "are they Christian OR Catholic?" Was a faulty distinction!

 

In the Christian tradition I was taught, one truly does believe that those who do not accept the (Protestant, KJV) Bible as the perfect, complete, inerrant Word of God are lost, or blinded, or not actual Christians. So, it does not surprise me one bit to see posts that speak the way my parents do, as well as my church-mates did many years ago.

 

In my lived experience, many evangelical Christian are taught culturally/functionally to "use" or "capitalize" on the presence of dissenting opinion as a time to execute the Great Commission.

 

I've seen it at funerals - and it was yet another nail in the coffin of my Christianity.

 

[Aura]

My two-cents: the way this thread is going is a perfect example to me of how the tradition of Christian belief butts up against modern sensibilities of tolerance and acceptance. Of course, I can only speak to the way I was raised, but the way I was raised truly DID NOT accept different beliefs, especially any belief system that did not have Jesus as Messiah and Savior as the centerpiece. Even when I was just a young teen, the exclusive nature of my family and church's beliefs troubled me VERY much. I never could buy that billions of people throughout history - including loving, giving, decent, wonderful folks - were damned because their beliefs and traditions differed from the beliefs and traditions I was taught. I'm afraid to even share this - my parents did not believe Catholics were "true" Christians. I was in my twenties before I realized that "are they Christian OR Catholic?" Was a faulty distinction!

 

In the Christian tradition I was taught, one truly does believe that those who do not accept the (Protestant, KJV) Bible as the perfect, complete, inerrant Word of God are lost, or blinded, or not actual Christians. So, it does not surprise me one bit to see posts that speak the way my parents do, as well as my church-mates did many years ago.

This has been my experience exactly.

[Hoot]

THIS is the way I grew up, too, Quill. The church that my husband goes to now (and I went to for many years) is the same way though they would, of course, deny it.

 

The way everyone reacts as sheep has been worrisome to me for a long time. For instance, I was the secretary of a committee at DH's chosen church several years ago. I remember sitting at a meeting with another woman and the pastor while waiting for everyone else to arrive. The woman asked the pastor, "what do you think of The Maker's Diet." His response was a simple and dismissive one word retort, "heresy." She was visibly deflated and mumbled a n embarrassed, "oh, I guess that's out." I was flooded that (a) one would even think to care what this man's opinion was and (b ) that she seemed to hold his opinion with such weight that she was clearly going to stay as far away from this supposed heresy as possible.

 

My two-cents: the way this thread is going is a perfect example to me of how the tradition of Christian belief butts up against modern sensibilities of tolerance and acceptance. Of course, I can only speak to the way I was raised, but the way I was raised truly DID NOT accept different beliefs, especially any belief system that did not have Jesus as Messiah and Savior as the centerpiece. Even when I was just a young teen, the exclusive nature of my family and church's beliefs troubled me VERY much. I never could buy that billions of people throughout history - including loving, giving, decent, wonderful folks - were damned because their beliefs and traditions differed from the beliefs and traditions I was taught. I'm afraid to even share this - my parents did not believe Catholics were "true" Christians. I was in my twenties before I realized that "are they Christian OR Catholic?" Was a faulty distinction!

 

In the Christian tradition I was taught, one truly does believe that those who do not accept the (Protestant, KJV) Bible as the perfect, complete, inerrant Word of God are lost, or blinded, or not actual Christians. So, it does not surprise me one bit to see posts that speak the way my parents do, as well as my church-mates did many years ago.

[HRAAB]

In my lived experience, many evangelical Christian are taught culturally/functionally to "use" or "capitalize" on the presence of dissenting opinion as a time to execute the Great Commission.

 

I've seen it at funerals - and it was yet another nail in the coffin of my Christianity.

 

 

During my bil's funeral, the minister stopped, started preaching about being saved, asked everyone to pray to accept Jesus in their heart, and then they passed around clipboards so that people who had just then accepted Jesus could write their name down.  It was a funeral filled with people from the community and family, of varying beliefs and no beliefs, and we were a captive audience.  That might well have been the final nail in my already mostly nailed shut coffin.

[Azalea]

These were also the eye witnesses to the events that happened. It would be pretty hard to fool the majority of people not only about Jesus, but also other well-known people existing like John the Baptist. Or Paul who was there condemning Stephen to death. The people living at the time would not have been easily fooled, because they lived at this time. Multitudes of people went to see John the Baptist in the wilderness. If there had been no eye witnesses to any of the people written about, then it would be obvious to the Jews at that time and the events would not have taken, been passed on, and churches established.

 

Reputable Biblical scholars agree that the gospels are not eyewitness accounts. At this point, this is common knowledge or should be for all Christians.