How do you know what you believe?

[Hoot]

I grew up going to church. One grandmother was an obnoxiously overzealous Christian who felt that she had a personal line straight to a God who would tell her everything about everyone and it was her job to inform them of God's will in their life. Another was a quiet and dignified Christian who simply loved and prayed. Another grandmother believed in God but, for all intents and purposes, practiced nothing.

 

It really never occurred to me for years to believe anything other than what I was taught. I was zealous in my Bible reading, tried to pray, joined studies etc. but it always felt empty and hollow - like I must be missing what everyone else was experiencing. I do recall thinking many times that I wished there was no God, that life would be so much simpler. I never identified with those Christians who would say things like, "I just don't know how I would get up and face the day if there was no God." To me it seemed like life would be infinitely simpler - you live, you die, you become fertilizer - what's so wrong with that?

 

Anyway, over the last 3 - 4 yrs. I have really struggled to continue believing in God or the bible. I think it started with a disappointment with Christian culture and spread from there. The further away from it I get the sillier it all sounds. I also find myself looking at a lot of things in Christianity and thinking that I really don't want to serve that kind of God. It's scary to jump ship though. Christianity comes with an intense amount of FEAR and intimidation. It's easy to say that you don't really believe but then to fall back into familiar patterns because they're comfortable. There is the fact that I don't know WHAT I believe, too. Maybe I'm agnostic with Buddhist tendencies... or athiest... or... I just don't know. I feel like I need to be able to put myself in a box before jumping ship, to be able to say with certainty THIS is what I believe. THIS is what I am. I mean, how do I defend "I don't know?"

 

My husband is a Christian believer. My son is a die-hard believer. Every single one of my friends is a Christian. I work at a Christian school. My kid goes to a Christian co-op. I literally have no one that I can hash this out with rationally. I feel like I have to hide because I am 100% certain I would be fired and my husband, who knows that SOMETHING is up, has already been a bit of a bully when it comes to me choosing not to go to church.

 

So, how did you come to your current belief (or non-belief) system? I'm particularly interested in those who have left the faith that you grew up with for something entirely different. How do you de-program yourself from all of that dogma and unravel the strands of what YOU believe? I don't know where to go beyond, "I don't think I believe in the Christian God anymore."

[Night Elf]

My son has been asking me questions about my religious beliefs. He is an atheist and is quite angry at what Christians have done in the name of God, so he worries about who I am and what I stand for. I have no idea what to tell him. I was in a non-Catholic family and they sent me to a Catholic school. My religious beliefs at that time were what I was learning. Then we moved and I started going to a Baptist church. It was totally different. I did things their way. By the time I was about 15 or 16, I stopped going to church completely. I've yo-yo'd in my beliefs since that time. I'm really an Agnostic and that's not good enough because it seems like a cop-out because I can't clearly define my beliefs. No one in my immediate family is religious, so it's easy for me to just not think about things too much. I guess it would be more difficult in your life since your DH might want you at church. You'll have to come to some mutual agreement though, or your relationship might become troubled. Good luck trying to figure it all out. It's just so difficult for me. I figure I'll have some panic attack when I'm dying because I won't know if I've done it all right or what will happen to me. I envy people with a strong faith.

[FaithManor]

:grouphug:  :grouphug: :grouphug: That's a tough place to be and I hope you find a lot of compassion and not judgment in this thread. 

 

I would recommend that since you aren't sure what you believe or do not believe, that you possibly just take a look at belief or faith itself. Read some authors from a variety of worldviews...consider it at kind of comparative worldview study. You could read an overview of Buddhism, Hinduism, islam, Judaism, maybe C.S. Lewis as a representative of Christianity, Richard Hawkins, Anthony Flew,.... Read from a place of unemotional curiosity. I am sure many here will have a several resources to recommend. Finding out what variety of beliefs and faiths the human race has embraced may help you flesh out more what is important to you, what morals and principles you do believe, and then how that plays out in terms of faith matters. You may end up back where you started or somewhere else completely, but there is a lot of discouragement and depression associated with subscribing to a faith based set of beliefs only out of fear or intimidation.

 

I am a Christian, but I do not like the hell, fire, brimstone, isolation, and heavy handed tactics that make many feel trapped into faith.

 

I hope you find joy in the journey.

[Alexigail]

I was raised EO, but had to re-commit to it as an adult.  I had a series of experiences in my 20's that left me convinced I am in the right place.  If your situation isn't working for you, I think it's ok to explore other traditions or belief systems.  Sometimes this brings about change, and sometimes it solidifies the faith you already have.  Hugs.

[Hoot]

I guess it would be more difficult in your life since your DH might want you at church. You'll have to come to some mutual agreement though, or your relationship might become troubled. Good luck trying to figure it all out. It's just so difficult for me. I figure I'll have some panic attack when I'm dying because I won't know if I've done it all right or what will happen to me. I envy people with a strong faith.

Thank you. At the very least, it feels less isolating to know that I'm not the only one. I haven't been to church regularly in a couple of years. My husband has been quite a bully about it in the past because he feels that I am being selfish but has gotten a bit better lately. My compromise is that I will attend occasionally on my own terms in order to keep up appearances. This has ended up amounting to holidays and maybe one service a month. I feel like such a hypocrite just being there but it is important to him. Plus, the Christian school where I work is affiliated with the church and I can't afford to lose my job.

[milovany]

I have had a couple of conversions in my life.  First from non-religious person at 19 years old to an evangelical protestant Christian.  For me, it was a relief to learn that life was bigger than myself and that there was something beyond what I could see and touch. While I was very active (meaning my faith was something that was a real part of me every day, I made decisions based on it, married and raised children based on it, was a missionary to Bolivia and to international students here in the States, etc.), I still spent about 23 years moving from church to church because something always seemed to be missing and we weren't quite finding what the Bible calls the fullness of the faith. We were charismatic Christians and thought that was "full gospel" but it still didn't satisfy.

 

About five years ago, I converted again -- to me it seemed like a complete turn-around, but it was still within Christianity.  We became Eastern Orthodox Christians.  Rather than a logical, thought and understanding based faith, it's a faith more mired in mystery and trust. We also had never ever before been part of a liturgical church. In our experience, in moving into eastern Christianity, finally, the fullness was there, the rest was there, the peace was there.  It's not easy practically speaking, but it's been so, so very freeing and restful in our spirits.  There's no longer any "What if there's a more pure/complete/fulfilling form of Christianity out there?"

 

You said that there's fear and intimidation in Christianity.  I haven't experienced that in Orthodoxy.  I didn't experience it much outside of Orthodoxy, truth be told, but I do know a little bit about that and do know what you're referring to. Maybe I experienced guilt more -- feeling guilty that I hadn't led many people to Christ (to "pray a prayer" in receiving Him), feeling guilty that I didn't pray much, feeling guilty that we weren't prospering financially (per world's standard, which our belief system at the time told us should be happening), feeling guilty that we weren't doing more for "ministry."  Now that's all gone and we're just drawing close to the Lord, we're finding soul healing and life, in the "hospital" that is the Church. 

 

How do I know what I believe? There have been too many things that have happened in life for me to go the route of atheism.  Coincidence would have to become my god LOL. I now believe what the Church teaches and has taught from the beginning (Orthodox Christians believe Orthodoxy is the original form of church/Christianity). I got wiped out trying to figure out the right and wrong myself, and was sad to think that's what the Christian life was all about, anyway.  So now we just know and worship God in the way the church always has.   

 

That's my/our story. 

 

:grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:

 

Blessings to you on your journey. I pray it will be a fruitful one for you.

 

 

[Entropymama]

First, I'm so sorry that you have no one to talk to. What a lonely place to be.  :grouphug:

 

I am a Christian, in fact my husband is a pastor, but I wasn't raised as one. My mother was an atheist and my father was a non-practicing Catholic. I came to faith on my own. I'm not sure my story would be entirely helpful, because each person is unique, but I can tell you a few things I know are true. 

 

I think there is often a massive disconnect when people are raised in a certain faith but don't ever embrace it as their own. As you said, many people simply keep doing what they've always done without stopping to think about whether they actually believe it. There's nothing wrong with that. Also, while what you've encountered of Christianity may be filled with fear and intimidation, the God of Christianity is not about those things. It's important to remember that the people who espouse a certain belief system may or may not actually embody those beliefs. 

 

At this point you may want to admit to yourself that you're not really a Christian. You don't really believe those things - and that's okay. I firmly believe that seeking the truth will enable you to find it. If you're still open to Christianity being true, I'd encourage you to get a copy of C.S. Lewis' Mere Christianity. It's an unemotional, logical 'proof' of Christianity. If that rings true to you, start researching various traditions. There are several really good conversion story books out - look up Jennifer Fulwiler or Cari Donaldson. They're both Catholic but their stories of coming to faith resonate with Christians of all traditions. Jen Fulwiler, in particular, searched through many different religions before 'deciding' on one. 

 

Talk to your husband. He may be uncomfortable with what you say at first, but his support is necessary. 

 

Going through a spiritual 'crisis' can be challenging but can also be incredibly rewarding. If you don't have anyone to talk to nearby, come back here! 

[umsami]

I know it sounds silly, but the Belief-o-matic can be a good place to start. :)

 

I was raised Presbyterian….and have gone through phases of agnosticism in my life.  I've studied different Buddhist schools, Judaism, Islam, Catholicism (did RCIA), Hinduism, Divine Feminism/Goddess religions, etc.  One time many moons ago, somebody told me that my life's mission was a spiritual path. I guess that's true this time around.  

 

In reality, I probably incorporate many different aspects of things I've studied, even though I'm Muslim.  What drew me to Islam, was how it is repeated over and over again in both the Qur'an in real life, about God being the Most Merciful, and Most Compassionate.  How God is neither male nor female in Islam.  Yet, I'm probably more Sufi in approach to many things that strict Sunni or Shi'a. I don't believe in a God who is mean or is just waiting to throw people into hell.  Of course, when I read about a child rapist, then I'm all for that…but normally, nah.  

 

I think one's spiritual beliefs evolve over time even if one is born and dies the same faith.  I don't think you have to know anything right now.  To check a box.  You might find comfort in a UU church or Unity church, where doctrine is more free flowing…yet you still have a "church" home.

 

Good luck on your path.  Enjoy the experience as much as you can, as hard as it may be to do so right now.  :grouphug:

 

Oh…and even if you don't believe, you can still try prayer.  You can be honest with God or Spirit or the world about your disbelief.  I remember when I was an agnostic praying that I'd really like to believe in God, but I didn't…. well, literally three days later, I had a very bizarro spiritual experience that changed everything for me.

[Stacia]

I was christened a Catholic as a baby, but grew up attending Baptist churches for the most part. Even as a child, I would sit in disbelief at what I was hearing in the church. Perhaps I was a born skeptic?

 

Though I am obviously most familiar w/ the Judeo-Christian traditions & beliefs, I've always been curious about others also -- really just man's search & belief for something 'higher', or 'more', or 'else'.... And not just now, but 'extinct' religions like the Greek Gods, for example. How does that 'die out' if they're immortal? Really, humans make very little sense sometimes, imo.

 

I feel that mankind cannot & will not ever know for sure about this other or these others, as far as higher beings or powers or gods. I am perfectly comfortable w/ not knowing what is the correct answer, if there is a correct answer. I also think nobody has that knowledge (contrary to what he or she states) & never will have that knowledge. Perhaps there are grains of truth scattered throughout various belief systems, but perhaps none of them are correct. I am ok with not knowing as I feel that it is something completely unknowable in the first place. I consider myself agnostic (= without knowledge) & am very comfortable with being in a state of not-knowingness.

 

(We do still 'celebrate' Christmas & Easter, but more as secular holidays & because they are family 'traditions' to celebrate them. I am, of course, very familiar w/ the religious tradition behind the celebration, but don't celebrate in the religious sense for myself.)

 

I don't usually broadcast my belief unless specifically asked (which has almost never happened). I live in the Bible Belt so am surrounded by many church-going folks; if I have ever been asked about religion, it is usually about which church I attend (to which I say, "I don't attend church.). I've never really had anyone pursue the conversation further.

 

:grouphug:

[bolt.]

I'm sorry to hear that your Christian context came with a lot of fear and intimidation. My Christian context seems to lack that, so maybe that's why it's easier for me. Plus I've always found the substance of the beliefs themselves more reasonable than other options. That said, I think the most humble and honest sentiment that a person can share is, "I don't know." There are a lot of beliefs and theological things I don't know as a Christian. (And I'm a master's-graduate from a seminary to boot!)

 

There are some things I am sure of, but once 'you' get beyond the basics (or the "essentials" or the Christian theistic worldview, or the ancient creeds -- whatever), and even when you start trying to be terribly precise about the basics -- there is a lot of ambiguity and room for creative thought and expression. There is a lot of diversity in Christian theology. I like that. I find people who are sure about everything, and can give a 'defense' of their 'certainty' (as opposed to a description of how they arrived at their current thoughts and why they find their leading theory the most compelling right now) almost unbearably arrogant.

 

"I don't know." doesn't need a defense. What's your hypothetical opponent going to say to argue with you, "Yes, you do know." ??? You are who you are. You know the things you know, and there are things you just don't know. That's something that can change, but not something that needs to change all at once. It's OK to be on a journey. It's OK to be different from day to day.

 

I believe in God and hold a Christian worldview, so here is a bit of my personal theological perspective on what you are sharing: I don't think God disapproves of the honest process of noticing that there are alternatives to Christianity -- and those alternatives need to be taken seriously in order for faith (or anything) to be your own. It's the lesson of the 'teaching tree' in Genesis. Even in the 'garden' scenario, God wasn't interested in people who accepted God because they had no options. In order for the acceptance to be real, rejection had to be possible. God made a 'tree' to make sure the people knew they didn't have to choose God.

 

If you come to a point in your journey where you settle out that the Christian God isn't real: then it won't matter to you what 'that God' would think of that. I just want you to know that in these in-between times, if you wonder what 'that God' would think of your desire to explore the realm of beliefs and unbeliefs, remember that's precisely the journey God set all humanity on, from the very beginning. He doesn't disapprove of your process. You're not in trouble. You're "on task".

[Mergath]

I think the first thing you need to do is come to terms with the idea of not knowing.  Discovering what you really believe in your heart can be a long process, and if you delve into it when you haven't yet shed the guilt, shame, and fear of your childhood religion, you're going to be too influenced by all that to listen to your inner voice.  So my advice would be to take the time to let yourself heal and become comfortable with not knowing.

 

When I initially discarded my childhood beliefs as a young teen, I was still too wrapped up in all of it and instead of finding my own beliefs, I was more interested in rebelling against my old beliefs.  Now that I've gotten past all the anger and fear, it's much easier to research and discover things, and to look within myself for what is true.

 

So just give yourself time.

[swellmomma]

I didn't "come up" with my current belief system I just went with what feels right.  Growing up my folks would send us to sunday school with family friends until I got expelled at 9 years old.  Yes expelled from sunday school, as you can imagine that pushed me right away from Christian beliefs.  My parents say they are Christian but they don't pray, go to church, heck my mom tries to tell me the bible says certain things that it doesn't etc.  My nana (my dad's mom) was pagan, I started to follow her foots steps.  A lot of her beliefs are still with me.  When I had my 6th miscarriage and was not coping well a friend took me to church, sitting there was hard, I had a heavy feeling on my chest that left when I left the building.  The next week she took me again, anyway over the course of the sermon that heaviness just left and I bawled my eyes out but it felt right.  It has felt right ever since.  I was baptized a few months later and have been a Christian ever since.  I may not go to church due to my work schedule but I still study my bible, pray and try to live a good Christian life.  BUT many of my beliefs from when I was not a Christian are still there and come through too.  I guess I am a hybrid, I know there are those in my real life circles who don't feel I am the right kind of Christian.  The pastor at the church I would attend if I could, and that hosts the bible study I go to has commented though that he likes the way I think of things, that those other beliefs have brought something new to the discussions.  Because for me it is all wrapped up together.  I don't know what I would do if I woke up tomorrow and their was no God, but I also don't know what I would do if I woke up tomorrow and there was no spirit guide any longer, or the spirit of the trees no longer existed etc.  

My kids are learning the beliefs I lead, On one hand their youth group leader says she has never known teens who were so committed to Christ, who witnessed to others so much at their ages (of course there is lots, she just hasn't met them :P ) but on the other they have been ridiculed and told to be wrong because they have beliefs about things that are not within Christianity or the bible (such as the rainbow bridge, that every living thing has a spirit/soul that is connected-not just humans. that in addition to thanking God for providing the meal you thank the animal for its sacrifice etc)

I dunno, I think what you do or do not believe has to come from within, you can't chose your beliefs based on what family is doing, or friends, or expectations, or fear. You just have to be true to what feels right.  In the end only those that have passed on know the truth of what is to come and whether or not those beliefs we held here on earth were the right ones.  Until then I have to trust that those beliefs that bring calm and peace to my soul are the ones that are right for me.

[albeto.]

So, how did you come to your current belief (or non-belief) system? I'm particularly interested in those who have left the faith that you grew up with for something entirely different. How do you de-program yourself from all of that dogma and unravel the strands of what YOU believe? I don't know where to go beyond, "I don't think I believe in the Christian God anymore."

 

Slowly, and with the support of others who had been down the same path. Ultimately, it was more important to me to know the truth than to find arguments to justify what I wanted to believe, and I don't mean that to sound as flippant as it probably does. The thing is, at some point, people recognize faith is a choice. Certainly I recognized it, and when I was in this kind of religious limbo I rededicated myself to that choice again and again ("I believe o lord, help me in my unbelief"). In my opinion, apologetics are arguments designed to make this belief make sense in a culture that no longer accepts "trust me" or "it's written in this holy book," or "I can feel it deep inside me," as a reason to believe a claim. So I decided to put my beliefs on the back corner, if you will, and gave myself permission to familiarize myself with information, whether it supported or conflicted with my beliefs. 

 

 There was a liberation for me to let go of the pressure to tell myself I believed in something even when it didn't really make sense. I passed through a kind of grieving period before I realized I didn't really believe what I told myself I would continue to believe. So by the time I asked myself what the worst thing that could happen if I lost my faith was, the answer was a calm and logical, "nothing." Nothing would change. I stopped believing the promises the faith made because they didn't really pan out when I looked at it. So I started putting more of a concerted effort into planning things through, relying on my own information, ideas, hopes, rather than relying on faith. There was more responsibility, sure, but more control and freedom. I found that by no longer being my own thought-police, I was finally free, truly free, to think what I wanted. And that freedom was far more rewarding than the fear of letting go of an alleged good friend I had never actually seen, heard, felt, or conversed with in any way. 

 

It was hard for me to break away from the conditioning I had accepted and internalized. Many times I gave myself permission to think about this whole thing later, only to realize I was still dwelling. I would suggest to you to give yourself permission to take your time, take a break if you want, and even give yourself permission to end up with one choice or the other without guilt. You may find other people pressure you, but you should give yourself the freedom to not do that to yourself. Don't feel guilty if you want to maintain a faith. Don't feel guilty if you want to abandon it. Be settled with your own thoughts. Their yours. 

[scootiepie]

I had to walk away from church in order to truly hear from God.   I just had too much church baggage and was not able to hear the message because of the messenger.    Once I had lived on my own terms for a few years (doing a lot of foolish and unwise things I might add...rebelling outlandishly) -  I had what I would call a divine encounter with God that left me completely changed and cemented my faith.

 

I mention this because this was something God alone could accomplish.   I would have completely rejected anything coming from a church or church person, especially those close to me.   I wasn't open to it at all.   God came to me, not the other way around.  

 

It doesn't sound like you are in a position to walk away like I did, but if you were candid with your husband and perhaps a close friend, that would be a start.   I would want to know if my spouse, parent, close friend were struggling, and I wouldn't hold it against them.   Be honest.   It's a part of the human experience.   If they were wise they would realize the journey at this point needs to be between you and God - bullying is working against God, not for him.

[TracyP]

I don't know. I'm right there with you.

 

I have tried reading my Bible more, reading it less, reading C.S. Lewis, and of course doing all this with a heavy dose of prayer. I am not really interested in exploring other religions - I already know I don't believe in them. Mostly, I am trying to just accept where I am. I live in a very rural area and attend a very small church. I am one of the two Sunday School teachers at my church. I am not ready to say, "I don't believe." In fact, I enjoy church. I like the hymns and the liturgy. Yet, I feel like such a fraud. I am trying to find peace within myself, but not having much success. LOL, I am kind of a mess...

 

 

[marbel]

I'm sorry for your struggle.  :grouphug: :grouphug:

 

I just wanted to follow on with those who said that fear and intimidation are not what Christianity is about.  It is not fear of hell that leads me to follow Christ - quite the opposite; it is the understanding of his love for me even amid difficulties.  I am so sorry for those who have grown up with that fear and misunderstanding and I understand why it may draw people away from faith.

 

I don't have any words of wisdom for you.  I'm sorry this is hard for you and I hope that you are able to find what you are looking for.  

[Zebra]

I had to walk away from church in order to truly hear from God.  

 

This is what happened to me.   Dh and I grew up in the Protestant Christian church going culture, and were way into it....until we had this life changing event.   Then we started questioning things.   I am still a Christian, I still believe in God and Jesus.   But I don't believe in going to "church" anymore.   I don't believe in all the crazy rules made up by religions all over the world.  So, I haven't had this crisis where I didn't believe in God, but I do not believe in organized religion.   Because I feel that you need to separate what people do "in the name of God", from God.   

 

This is all to just explain where *I* am coming from.   The shocking and disheartening thing I've lived through is that the majority of Christians are suspicious of me because I "don't go to church".   Christians by and large try to get me "back into the fold" or write me off as lost.  Many non-Christians are suspicious of me because I think they are worried I am going to evangelize to them or whatever, many are uncomfortable with my faith.  So DH and I find ourselves in some sort of weird limbo.  Growing up and in our early 20's we so neatly fit into the "church culture" and now we fit nowhere.  

 

When you grow up in such a strict church, it's a little like leaving the Amish.  You do get "shunned" on some level.  It touches everything in your life. And you clearly can't really "leave" at this point, you're too entangled.

 

I guess the one thing I did when I was going through all my identity crisis was pray and pray and pray some more.    It was painful and it hurt but I finally found my way through it.   I don't know if that's an option for you or not.   But one thing I do believe is that God wants us to seek Him honestly.   I also read, and thought, and researched.   I was determined to figure out what I actually believed.   Expect to hit a lot of brick walls, and expect to upset a lot of people when you do start to realize what you believe and start to try to share that with people.

 

I don't know if that addresses your original post very well or helps at all with your specific situation.   But those are my thoughts.  

[Onceuponatime]

:grouphug: I'm in a similar situation. I'm at peace with knowing that I am not a Christian any more, but circumstances of life make that realization scary when I think about the affect that it might have on those who know me. (pretty much all my family and friends) I'm kind of hoping things will naturally work themselves out without me having to make any public declarations. Hopefully it won't end up being as bad as I keep imagining it might be.

 

As for how I came to this place, I read and studied, a lot. I tried to look at my former (fundamentalist) faith from the eyes of an outsider. When I had a question about something in the Bible, I researched what many different sides had to say about that particular thing, including those of other faiths and atheists. I attempted to see which viewpoint appeared to be the most reasonable. Slowly my faith in Christianity's sole claim to rightness disappeared.

 

One thing I have found interesting lately is a series of youtube videos by a Professor Matt McCormick on the Philosophy of Religion.

[Hoot]

I'm sorry to hear that your Christian context came with a lot of fear and intimidation. My Christian context seems to lack that, so maybe that's why it's easier for me.

I don't mean to sound contrary, but can I genuinely ask how that is possible for you? Christianity is based in exclusivity - that this is the ONE TRUE god and anyone who does not call him savior will spend a painful eternity in hell. How does that not shroud the whole thing in a thick layer of fear and intimidation for any but those who are part of the club? If you have been taught to believe that this is THE only way and all others lead to personal death and destruction, how does one not feel a paralyzing fear that what they've been taught from birth might actually happen if they walk away?

[SemiSweet]

I was a Christian until I was about 27. Events leading up to it were complicated but it started with my desire to stay with my husband because that's what god would want, despite the fact that he was a pathological liar, drug addict, and lacks any work ethic whatsoever. So great was my desire that I prayed every night for him and even believed god talked to me that he would eventually be saved and married life would be at least a little less of a struggle. In order to support him and my kids I joined the Air Force. I have no idea what happened (self-respect perhaps) but I filed for divorce within a month of graduating basic training. That started my journey of self-discovery. I had a little bit of freedom in tech school to be by myself away from family and church and my faith just started dissipating. A year or so later I took a college biology class and realized that science seemed about a billion times more likely. I read everything about religion and lack of religion. I see what is going on with the extreme right wing in this country and I just know. Dawkins says there is a faith scale 1-7, 1 is most faithful in religion, 7 is most absolute atheist. I would place myself at a 6.5. I feel very comfortable in my atheism now but it was hands down the hardest thing I ever did.

 

The freedom and happiness in my life now are solely because of my leaving Christianity. My life changed in every single way possible, all of it good. The process was so worth it, I am married again to a man who values me like nothing I had ever experienced, getting away from patriarchal thought process made that possible. I am no longer dirt poor and doomed to stay that way because I had to stay with a man who would lie and blow our money and rarely hold down a job.

 

Your situation is very different than mine and I wish you peace on this journey. It is hard. You can pm me if you need a sounding board. <hugs>

[AlmiraGulch]

I was raised Roman Catholic, and although I identified as Catholic for many years I never really bought into all of it.  I was very much a cherry picker Catholic, conveniently ignoring all of those things that didn't seem right to me, or made no sense, and holding close those things that made me feel safe and secure.  I really do think that's an ok thing to do.

 

Honestly, the first time I remember consciously questioning Christianity as a whole (Catholic or otherwise) was in high school.  I had a class in Human Sexuality and we had to write a paper on something, anything at all, that had to do with sex.  True to form, I waited until the last minute to write the paper (I am a Master Procrastinator, still) and so I wanted to select something that was as easy as possible, with as much readily available research to quote as I could.  So my topic was homosexuality in the Bible, because I figured there was so much evidence supporting how it was wrong and sinful (even though I never really thought of it that way personally) it would be an easy paper to write.

 

Much to my surprise, there was considerably more written about how it actually was not condemned.  Further, it was the first time that I was exposed to and really thought about all of the contradictions and horrors in the Bible that I'd never really given any thought to previously.  The more I read and studied and research, the more I questioned.  

 

In college, I took a Religions of the World class, and that had me questioning even more.  It was fascinating.  My big take-away, though, was how the story of Jesus, including the virgin birth, the one Son of God being sacrificed for the greater good and salvation of Man, the miracles, the resurrection......pretty much all of the Big Stuff of Christianity.....was not only ridiculous, but not even a little bit original.  Those same stories had been told over and over again in a multitude of cultures long before Jesus came around.  That pretty much sealed the deal for me, even though I still went to church and enjoyed the rituals.  Eventually I just couldn't suspend my disbelief any longer, and that was that.  It was hard to say "church would be fine, if not for all that God stuff."  I couldn't do it anymore. 

 

So, to answer your question, it was a process of many years.  I don't know exactly what I believe today.  I do know what I don't believe, though, and I'm ok with that.  I'm no better or worse of a person than I ever was.  I'm much more content, though, than I was when I was living a lie.  I won't ever do that again.

 

Let yourself read learn and explore.  You never know where you'll land, but you owe it to yourself to go on the journey.  

 

[AlmiraGulch]

FWIW, I was never really taught that.  I was pretty shocked to learn as a young adult that there were people out there who believed that and said that.  But no, I really didn't get that message as a kid. 

 

(And yet I still did not believe it.)

 

I was never taught that, either.  Not at church or at home.  

 

My parents were pretty much of the "it doesn't really matter what you believe; all paths are good; follow your own path" ilk. I don't recall ever hearing anything that would have made me believe otherwise at church, either.

[Indian summer]

Hmm.. This may sound simplistic and if you've been immersed in church culture, it's likely you may have already tried it, but it may be worth pursuing again, idk. Have you asked God to reveal himself to you?

 

I had one parent and set of grandparents who were quiet Christians. Another parent who just doesn't know what to believe. It was never shoved down my throat, our family didn't attend church. I chose Christianity as a child and then got away from it at various times in my life, but there was always a tug to return to it. No guilt or anything, just a gentle nudge here and there - and I don't mean from people.

 

I have observed, in my own life at least, that when I'm practicing, things just go better for me and I have serious regrets about the times I've stepped away. Not that I made worse choices or anything, just that I couldn't handle life as well and things just didn't go right - not that I made the correlation at the time, but hindsight being what it is...

 

I hope this doesn't come across as pressure filled, I hate that sort of stuff.

 

(((hugs)))

[Entropymama]

I don't mean to sound contrary, but can I genuinely ask how that is possible for you? Christianity is based in exclusivity - that this is the ONE TRUE god and anyone who does not call him savior will spend a painful eternity in hell. How does that not shroud the whole thing in a thick layer of fear and intimidation for any but those who are part of the club? If you have been taught to believe that this is THE only way and all others lead to personal death and destruction, how does one not feel a paralyzing fear that what they've been taught from birth might actually happen if they walk away?

 

I really don't think Christianity is based in exclusivity, although I know there are some churches/denominations/whatever that focus on that aspect. I would actually say that Christianity is based in grace. More to the point, even if, as a Christian, I believe that the only way to Heaven is through belief in Christ, that doesn't mean I go around intimidating people and scaring them into Christianity. Jesus didn't. He really didn't talk about hell at all. As a Christian I rarely think about hell. 

 

This is a very deep subject, and we're only scratching the surface. 

[HRAAB]

The walk away from religion has not been easy for me, but no matter how hard it has been at times, it's been far better than trying to perpetuate the lie I was living.  That was the bottom line for me.  The difficult part has been how it has impacted friendships - especially those of my children.  Looking back, I realize they were friendships built on falsehoods.  

 

Crawling outside the box I lived in and viewing it from the outside was one of those light bulb moments.  It was very uncomfortable to view what I used to be from an outsider's perspective and not one that I'm very proud of.  Little by little Christianity feel apart.  I could no longer defend it.  I did a lot of reading, especially from the church I attended, but also from opposing viewpoints.  I wanted to be sure in my mind that I was correct about what I didn't accept.  The more I studied, the more impossible it was for me to stay with it.

 

I believe in humanity, in what I see.  As to what I can't see, the supernatural, I don't worry about it too much anymore.  That's not to say I don't ever wonder about God or faith or salvation, but I move on.  I try very hard to live a good life, be a compassionate, charitable, honest person.  If there is a God, and living a good life is not enough without a very specific belief (Christianity), then honestly, that's not a God I'm going to worship.  And that about sums up the Christian God.  I honestly find orthodoxy a very odd concept.  I vary somewhere between 5 and 6 on Dawkins scale.  One thing I've learned is to not assume where I am now is where I will be years down the road.  Life is interesting.

[shukriyya]

Well, I'll claim all the numbers on Dawkins's scale. Belief-atheism-agnosticism-doubt are not static anymore than we are. And they are also irrelevant. In any given breath all of those can be at play...mutability being the dance of sentience...but there is something infinitely more refined, indescribably more subtle and elegant than such a dualistic lens. Something that doesn't depend on belief or non-belief because it is wholly, totally Inclusive of all of it. Divinity/Oneness/Multiplicity/Allah/God/Goddess/NoGod/Jesus/Mary/Tara, however we choose to describe our particular Beloved, will go on being with or without our consent.

OP, your questions are wonderful!

[gardenmom5]

well, my (agnositic) mother was an only child, or I'd think we were cousins.  My grandmother was quite sanctimonious in her professions of belief in a god of death, hell, fire, brimstone and destruction.  not that she ever went to church with all those "stuck up" people.  (her words. she loved the televangelists on TV)  and not that she ever did anything I could see of trying to be a better person than she was the day before.  she also regularly used God as a weapon.  re: do what I say or you will stricken down.  I believe she was NPD, or at least some sort of personality disorder.  she was NOT a nice person and left much destruction of people's lives in her wake.   my mother felt relief when she finally blessed us all by dying.

 

I take Jesus' teaching literally where he says "by their fruits ye shall know them".  my grandmother's were very bitter. 

 

having an ornery streak, I rejected what she taught me about God. Deep down, there was a part of me that was sure if there was a God, it would be a God of love and not what she used as a whip against us.

 

 I understand why people who've grown up with family members (especially a parent figure) like this reject religion.  It can be very hard to separate the two.  Even after I joined a church where I felt spiritually fed and sustained, I had to work to separate what was ingrained by my grandmother' and what I had come to believe.  God was very patient with me in that struggle - and I have a very deep and abiding testimony/belief in His Goodness and Love.  (and it has made me a softer person.)  It helped that I came to know women who loved God, were saintly, full of Love, kindness, and service for others.

 

A number of years back, I read the Hiding Place by Corrie ten Boom.  they were a devoted dutch reformed church family who ended upon hiding jews during wwii.  they were caught, and sent to a concentration camp.  her sister Betsey died there.  Betsey was pure, without guile, lived to serve others and always put others ahead of herself.   I want to be like Betsey when I grow up.  maybe if I live to 105. thousand.  maybe.

 

(I rarely saw my other grandmother, but she was very different.  from what I could tell, she was actually sincerely trying to live her religion.  I think that exposure was enough to keep a hope in a loving God alive within me.)

[Ameena]

 

So, how did you come to your current belief (or non-belief) system? I'm particularly interested in those who have left the faith that you grew up with for something entirely different. How do you de-program yourself from all of that dogma and unravel the strands of what YOU believe? I don't know where to go beyond, "I don't think I believe in the Christian God anymore."

 

For me it's been very much a process. I was raised nominally christian, with parents who were religious but didn't attend. They did send me to church every Sunday without fail though. I church hopped a lot as a kid - where ever my friends went, where ever was doing VBS, etc. I think I did everything but LDS. Never felt like I fit in with anyone of them. Went through a period of satanism / Wicca as a pre-teen. When I was a teen, I said well Catholicism is the oldest - it must be the most correct. So started studying the RC church. Converted to Catholicism my freshman year of college. Almost immediately began questioning again - even in my theology classes at university they couldn't give me a good answer to the questions I had. So I became a non-practicing Catholic, and pretty much did my own thing. Had my dd as a single mom, and wanted to go back to the RC church. But every door seemed to be shut for me as a single mom. Spent over a year trying to find a parish that would baptize my dd - never found one. When dd was about 3/4, I finally said okay G-d - obviously I am not meant to be a catholic & raise my dd as one. I just asked for guidance, expecting that maybe I'd end up at one of the mega churches or something. That night I had a very vivid dream {and I RARELY dream, and never vivid dreams} of following a man into a building split into 3 parts - one area had a Mass going on, one had a non-denominational service, and the 3rd area was behind a wall. I went behind the wall, and it was a woman teaching about Islam. I'll be honest - some of what I dreamed had to have come from g-d, as I had never studied islam, never read about it - never even talked with a muslim before. Yet in this dream, all my questions from years past were answered and basic instruction in Islam was given. When I walked out of the building in the dream, my dream self was thinking finally I'd found peace & what I'd been looking for. Now, almost 5 years later I can still remember that dream in full color & every detail. The next day I started researching Islam. About a year later I finally converted. I'll admit - I'm not the worlds greatest Muslim by any means - it is a struggle for me in many ways. But I know in my heart & head that it is right for me.

 

So my vote would be for ask g-d for guidance, but be prepared his guidance might surprise you.

 

ETA: I would also highly recommend the books MisGod'ed & the sequel God'ed. The first looks at all the abrahamic faiths from a academic viewpoint & explains a lot of the "just have faith" stuff.

[SadieMarie]

I am sorry you don't have anyone to talk to in real life about this. I was raised Catholic, parochial school and the whole bit. I left because I had problems with the institution. I tried to be a Protestant but I just didn't believe it. I thought I needed to for my kids, like they should have a church. I don't know why I thought that lol. Part of it was pressure from extended family. I gave it my best but it just isn't there. And then my dd told me after Sunday school that what they were saying was not logical and she didn't believe it. I just couldn't make her go back. It would be like sending Spock to Sunday school lol. I am not an atheist or a believer. I am solidly agnostic. I am comfortable with it being a mystery. I don't need to believe or not believe. I am fine with it. I am not sure what I would do if my family was really devout though. That would be hard. It would require a lot of mutual respect and tolerance. It sounds like your family is going to have a tough time with that.

[Hoot]

I really don't think Christianity is based in exclusivity, although I know there are some churches/denominations/whatever that focus on that aspect. I would actually say that Christianity is based in grace. More to the point, even if, as a Christian, I believe that the only way to Heaven is through belief in Christ, that doesn't mean I go around intimidating people and scaring them into Christianity. Jesus didn't. He really didn't talk about hell at all. As a Christian I rarely think about hell. 

 

This is a very deep subject, and we're only scratching the surface. 

 

While I am completely familiar with the concept of grace-based salvation, the way I understand it is that the grace and the exclusivity work hand-in-hand.  One does not need works to attain salvation, it is freely given to those who choose to believe and accept it (this is the grace part), but ACCEPTING that salvation is a condition of spending eternity with god in heaven as opposed to in hell (this is the exclusivity). 

 

I really didn't grow up in a house or a church where any of this was focused on or discussed frequently, only that it was occasionally taught as truth based on the understanding of a number of scriptures.  As for the bolded, while I agree, I'm not sure I understand your point as it pertains to grace and exclusivity.  Supposing that the Jesus is the only way grace-based salvation is true, it doesn't matter whether you intimidate others into believing it, shout it from the rooftops, believe it quietly in your head, or don't believe it at all.  In the end, truth is truth regardless.  I guess my fear lies in the slim possibility that it IS truth.  What then?  Even if you don't believe in a literal hell, I would venture that if you came to the end of your life only to find that it DID exist, no one would WANT to spend eternity there.       

[Hoot]

Well, I'll claim all the numbers on Dawkins's scale. Belief-atheism-agnosticism-doubt are not static anymore than we are. And they are also irrelevant. In any given breath all of those can be at play...mutability being the dance of sentience...but there is something infinitely more refined, indescribably more subtle and elegant than such a dualistic lens. Something that doesn't depend on belief or non-belief because it is wholly, totally Inclusive of all of it. Divinity/Oneness/Multiplicity/Allah/God/Goddess/NoGod/Jesus/Mary/Tara, however we choose to describe our particular Beloved, will go on being with or without our consent.

 

OP, your questions are wonderful!

 

I have to tell you that this, particularly the bolded, is the most beautiful, and both complex, and simple thing I think I have read in all of this.  Thank you.

 

[albeto.]

I really don't think Christianity is based in exclusivity, although I know there are some churches/denominations/whatever that focus on that aspect. I would actually say that Christianity is based in grace.

 

Perhaps the OP is referring to the idea that this grace is a response to the first claim - eternal damnation as a default until [unless] one finds faith. Even if you focus on the one side of the coin, the other cannot be separated from it. At least, this is how I understand it, and understood it. It was that alternative to grace, the thing grace is understood to save us from that presents the subtle undercurrent of fear and intimidation, even if no person speaks it aloud. But of course, in looking into faith, one cannot help but bump into those preachers who do not shy away from this side of the coin. They are certainly outspoken and rather well known, even among those who don't belong to the same sect. 

[Hoot]

:grouphug:  :grouphug: :grouphug: That's a tough place to be and I hope you find a lot of compassion and not judgment in this thread. 

 

I would recommend that since you aren't sure what you believe or do not believe, that you possibly just take a look at belief or faith itself. Read some authors from a variety of worldviews...consider it at kind of comparative worldview study. You could read an overview of Buddhism, Hinduism, islam, Judaism, maybe C.S. Lewis as a representative of Christianity, Richard Hawkins, Anthony Flew,.... Read from a place of unemotional curiosity. I am sure many here will have a several resources to recommend. Finding out what variety of beliefs and faiths the human race has embraced may help you flesh out more what is important to you, what morals and principles you do believe, and then how that plays out in terms of faith matters. You may end up back where you started or somewhere else completely, but there is a lot of discouragement and depression associated with subscribing to a faith based set of beliefs only out of fear or intimidation.

 

I am a Christian, but I do not like the hell, fire, brimstone, isolation, and heavy handed tactics that make many feel trapped into faith.

 

I hope you find joy in the journey.

 

Thank you, FaithManor, this is actually very helpful.  I actually have the Teaching Company Great World Religions and Philosophy of Religion sets.  I have another book somewhere that discusses the differences between many world religions, though it comes at it from a distinctly Christian slant.  I've read it before but probably should again.  I've been reading through the "Ask An Atheist" thread and have wished that there was one for Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, Paganism etc. 

 

Thank you again!

 

[unsinkable]

I don't mean to sound contrary, but can I genuinely ask how that is possible for you? Christianity is based in exclusivity - that this is the ONE TRUE god and anyone who does not call him savior will spend a painful eternity in hell. How does that not shroud the whole thing in a thick layer of fear and intimidation for any but those who are part of the club? If you have been taught to believe that this is THE only way and all others lead to personal death and destruction, how does one not feel a paralyzing fear that what they've been taught from birth might actually happen if they walk away?

All Christian religions don't believe or teach this.

[Ameena]

Thank you, FaithManor, this is actually very helpful.  I actually have the Teaching Company Great World Religions and Philosophy of Religion sets.  I have another book somewhere that discusses the differences between many world religions, though it comes at it from a distinctly Christian slant.  I've read it before but probably should again.  I've been reading through the "Ask An Atheist" thread and have wished that there was one for Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, Paganism etc. 

 

Thank you again!

 

 

There is a Ask a Muslim thread here - http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/474535-so-ask-a-muslim/?view=findpost&p=5298044&hl=%2Bask+%2Bmuslim

 

It's an older thread, but I doubt anyone would mind if someone bumped it.

[Hoot]

For me, it was a relief to learn that life was bigger than myself and that there was something beyond what I could see and touch.

 

Can I ask why?  I genuinely don't understand this line of thinking at all.  I would be absolutely thrilled to find that there was nothing beyond what is here and now - that I would be nothing more than fertilizer upon my death.  And please don't feel like I'm picking on you; that is not my intent at all.  I really am curious.      

 

 

I now believe what the Church teaches and has taught from the beginning (Orthodox Christians believe Orthodoxy is the original form of church/Christianity).

 

I'm curious as to whether this belief is unique to Orthodoxy?  Doesn't every branch of Christianity believe that they're doing it the "right" or "original" way. 

 

Thank you so much for taking the time to respond.  I appreciate everyone's input.

[Hoot]

I know it sounds silly, but the Belief-o-matic can be a good place to start. :)

 

Actually, I've done that a number of times and it really gets me nowhere.  I feel like it should allow for multiple answers.  Also, about 80% of my answers are typically, "I don't know."  :tongue_smilie:

 

 

You might find comfort in a UU church or Unity church, where doctrine is more free flowing…yet you still have a "church" home.

 

I have actually considered this and want to read a bit more about them on their website.  Everything I've read thus far though sounds very beautiful and welcoming.  There are a few in my area and I do know one couple that attends a UU church, though they are DH's friends, not mine.  I'm not close with them, though they would be welcoming.  It seems like it would be a bit awkward to run into them there without DH.  

 

Thank you!

[Susan C.]

Hi Contessa,
I'm sorry about the one grandmother that imposed on you what she felt was God's will for you. Each person has to work that out for themselves. I had a wise person tell me once that when someone adds "God" to what they are telling you, that it is manipulative and controlling (and isn't God telling you anything). When you follow what someone else has told you to do, it does feel empty and robotic. To me, a living faith is something you work out for yourself, its between you and your god. Its your offering. I consider myself a Christian, and I am not fond of "Christian culture." My young adult kids know plenty of atheists made from rejecting that "Christian culture." I wish they knew they didn't have to listen to all of those "do's and don'ts" and when you move from the legalistic to the more personal aspects of the faith (I'm having trouble coming up with a word…), that it, to me, seems more representative of what Jesus showed us while on earth.

I choose to separate what other Christians do and what my faith is. I won't leave my faith because others practice it wrongly (in my eyes). As I have worked out what I believe, a strange thing happened. The intense fear lifted. I feel more peaceful. I have read quite a bit the last year to help with the shift. It is not something that can be quickly worked out, but again, for me, it has been worth the effort. It has felt like a deprogramming and reprogramming. I'm trying to figure where I started….. I think near the beginning was getting an accurate view of what the Bible is. Rob Bell, Peter Enns, Marcus Borg, are good places to get perspective on this. Reading the Bible in context, rather than a bunch of loose commands to blindly obey helped me immensely. Realizing that people wrote it (it didn't just drop out of the sky), so their perspective and the perspective of the time period show up. Also realizing that people practiced our faith before they had access to a Bible (or at the beginning, before it was even written or canonized) was enlightening. And having kids in college (after homeschooling them K-12) and having them come home and tell me what they learned in literature, philosophy, etc. and discussing, working out, piecing together how the interpretation of literature applied to the Bible was an eye opener as well.

Peace on your journey!

[Hoot]

I think the first thing you need to do is come to terms with the idea of not knowing.  Discovering what you really believe in your heart can be a long process, and if you delve into it when you haven't yet shed the guilt, shame, and fear of your childhood religion, you're going to be too influenced by all that to listen to your inner voice.  So my advice would be to take the time to let yourself heal and become comfortable with not knowing.

 

When I initially discarded my childhood beliefs as a young teen, I was still too wrapped up in all of it and instead of finding my own beliefs, I was more interested in rebelling against my old beliefs.  Now that I've gotten past all the anger and fear, it's much easier to research and discover things, and to look within myself for what is true.

 

So just give yourself time.

 

THIS is ridiculously helpful!  Thank you so much.  I've been on this roller coaster for a few years now.  I went from quietly pulling away to rebelliously mocking (in my own quiet way) and now to the beginning of some desire to figure out what I am without the childhood Christianity.  "Time" is probably a very good idea.  That should be fun; I've never been a patient person.   :tongue_smilie: Thank you again.   

[AlmiraGulch]

Actually, I've done that a number of times and it really gets me nowhere.  I feel like it should allow for multiple answers.  Also, about 80% of my answers are typically, "I don't know."  :tongue_smilie:

 

 

I have actually considered this and want to read a bit more about them on their website.  Everything I've read thus far though sounds very beautiful and welcoming.  There are a few in my area and I do know one couple that attends a UU church, though they are DH's friends, not mine.  I'm not close with them, though they would be welcoming.  It seems like it would be a bit awkward to run into them there without DH.  

 

Thank you!

 

I've found that most UU churches (at least in my area) have more a Christian slant than anything else.  The two different Unity churches I've been two have really just been more about positive energy and love and taking the good parts (I told you I was a cherry picker!) from all variety of spiritual and religious traditions, including Paganism and Native American tradition, which I liked.  

 

In the end, I'm really just not a "joiner" type of person, so I don't go anywhere.  But if I felt the need for a community of that sort I'd go back to the Unity church.

[Hoot]

I got this in my inbox today and thought it was insanely relevant.    :eek:

[umsami]

There is a Ask a Muslim thread here - http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/474535-so-ask-a-muslim/?view=findpost&p=5298044&hl=%2Bask+%2Bmuslim

 

It's an older thread, but I doubt anyone would mind if someone bumped it.

 

Oops, saw this too late and started this http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/512771-so-ask-a-muslim/

[Hoot]

Probably "the" pivotal moment for me was when my mother died.  I was 28.  Up until that point I really didn't think about any of that stuff.  I was busy with my life and really at that point in my life there weren't any real pressures from the religious folks in my life.  My husband is not religious either.  So, when my mother died, I kind of wondered if at that point I'd feel something.  Like some sort of sense that there was something more to life than death.  I wanted to believe there was.  But I don't.  If you can't believe it even after wanting to think you will see your loved one again, then I don't think there is much that can convince you.  And you'd think that would have bothered me.  But no, not at all.  I feel very at peace with my thoughts on this.  I am not afraid of it. 

 

Thank you for this.  It is a very interesting point that I had never really thought much about before now.  My mother died when I was young.  I have since lost a number of people who were important to me.  Even when I could say that I was a hard-core Christian, I never really cared about seeing them again.  I always felt that being with them in this life was good enough and that death was the natural end of that.  Oddly enough, even those that died suddenly or under circumstances where one might want to see them again in order to talk some sense into them or even just say goodbye, no, not at all.  I've just never cared much about seeing them or spending eternity with or without them.   

 

[umsami]

Y'know, one thing that really resonated with me was reading about NDEs (Near Death Experiences).  I have no idea if that interests you or not, but it might be an area to explore.

[milovany]

Can I ask why?  I genuinely don't understand this line of thinking at all.  I would be absolutely thrilled to find that there was nothing beyond what is here and now - that I would be nothing more than fertilizer upon my death.  And please don't feel like I'm picking on you; that is not my intent at all.  I really am curious.      

 

 

I'm curious as to whether this belief is unique to Orthodoxy?  Doesn't every branch of Christianity believe that they're doing it the "right" or "original" way. 

 

Thank you so much for taking the time to respond.  I appreciate everyone's input.

 

I'll think on the first part and get back to you!  Off to a parish dinner tonight. 

 

I had never, ever heard the idea before that a church believed itself to be the original early church, so I guess not on my part.  I realize others took a better look at history than I did in this regard.  My comment was historically speaking (timeline wise). Objectively speaking, I think one has to admit that it's either the Roman Catholic Church or the Orthodox Church that is the original early church with direct historical (apostolic) ties to the New Testament church. All others are spinoffs (break offs) from those two.  I actually learned that point here on this board from a very non-believing (atheist) person. Those two used to be one and the same, but in the late first millennium or so (with the final break coming in 1054), they split from each other.  The Roman Catholics would now say they're the early church and the Orthodox broke off form them, and the Orthodox would say the Roman Catholic Church stepped away from the original Orthodox church.  Either way, it was one of the two.  Now, most churches/denominations today -- those that broke off -- do admittedly believe theirs is the right interpretation of what the church is supposed to be like (which I respect wholeheartedly, just disagree with).  I hope that makes sense without sounding snobby or anything. I don't feel that way at all but I don't get my usual "reread and edit for clarity and kindness" moment right now -- I have to get Friday for the dinner. 

 

Back later to answer the first. 

[Hoot]

I am still a Christian, I still believe in God and Jesus.   But I don't believe in going to "church" anymore.   I don't believe in all the crazy rules made up by religions all over the world.  So, I haven't had this crisis where I didn't believe in God, but I do not believe in organized religion.   Because I feel that you need to separate what people do "in the name of God", from God.  

 

This is very, very much where I started on this path.  Part of what I have struggled to untangle is whether I truly no longer believe or I, like you, just don't believe in organized religion/church. 

 

Thank you for sharing!!!

[mamaraby]

Actually, I've done that a number of times and it really gets me nowhere. I feel like it should allow for multiple answers. Also, about 80% of my answers are typically, "I don't know."

Then maybe that's your answer...you don't know. It's ok to not know. It's also ok to not know now and change your mind later. It's ok to leave Christianity for something else. It's ok to call yourself "spiritual, but not religious."

 

For me, it wasn't a conversion (btdt), but rather being true to myself. Once I did that, most of my angst went away. No more cognitive dissonance. No more qualifing, excusing, and ignoring.

 

Be you. Whatever that may be.

[gardenmom5]

and doing genealogy.  I've had some interesting experiences with that.

Y'know, one thing that really resonated with me was reading about NDEs (Near Death Experiences).  I have no idea if that interests you or not, but it might be an area to explore.

 

 

[Hoot]

There is a Ask a Muslim thread here - http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/474535-so-ask-a-muslim/?view=findpost&p=5298044&hl=%2Bask+%2Bmuslim

 

It's an older thread, but I doubt anyone would mind if someone bumped it.

 

Oh cool.  Thank you!

[Hoot]

I've found that most UU churches (at least in my area) have more a Christian slant than anything else.  The two different Unity churches I've been two have really just been more about positive energy and love and taking the good parts (I told you I was a cherry picker!) from all variety of spiritual and religious traditions, including Paganism and Native American tradition, which I liked.  

 

In the end, I'm really just not a "joiner" type of person, so I don't go anywhere.  But if I felt the need for a community of that sort I'd go back to the Unity church.

 

This is me!  I don't feel a desire to find community either within Christianity or any other belief system.  I suppose in the beginning of a new faith it might be helpful in order to learn the basics from living, breathing humans, but beyond that, I have never felt the need for community.