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If I'm using CAP W&R Fables, what else should I add to create an efficient, well-rounded language arts combo? (3rd grade)


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My dd8 will be starting 3rd grade in the fall. So far, we have been doing the FLL/WWE/AAS combo and that has mostly been going well. 

 

After reading all the threads on Classical Academic Press Writing & Rhetoric Fables, I think it might be the perfect fit. It just really sounds refreshing and different, plus it adds practice in some skills we haven't yet approached (elocution, word play, and probably a few others).

 

So now I am trying to build our language arts lineup around CAP W&R Fables/Narrative. I want to keep it as efficient as possible (i.e. not too much overlap) with an eye towards beauty/virtue (yes, I've been reading all the lovely Circe threads). I will have a 1st grader and two other littles running around, so I feel the need to maximize the time I have allotted for dd8.

 

I *think* we will keep AAS, but what else do I need?

 

Would WWE3 be too redundant?

 

What skills are taught in WWE3 that would not be taught in Fables? 

 

Also, does CAP Fables teach any grammar or punctuation? 

 

What's your best scenario language arts combo that utilizes CAP W&R Fables?

 

Thanks in advance!

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Guest staceyal

My plan for third grade is to use CAP W&R with LLtL 2. I have looked W&R over and think it will mesh well with the LLtL, although I plan to stretch out the Fables book and use it over the course of the year instead of one semester. The W&R doesn't direct teach grammar or punctuation, but there is a copy work and dictation assignment for each chapter. I think the W&R will ease my daughter into more writing practice while the LLtL will cover the grammar and punctuation basics, and the poetry is an added plus. She will also be summarizing and giving narratives with the W&R. I like things to be streamlined without a lot of overlap too!

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We used CAP Writing and Rhetoric Fable this spring (each book is a one semester course) -- for a full writing year you would use CAP Fable and Narrative 1. We only used Fable this year, and used Brave Writer the other semester. 

 

In addition, for LA use a separate grammar and spelling. For grammar we used FLL 3 and for spelling my dd finished AAS 4 and then moved onto R&S spelling 4. 

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What's your best scenario language arts combo that utilizes CAP W&R Fables?

 

Phonics then Latin+CAP W&R followed by Literature Analysis and writing not covered by W&R such as Formal Rhetoric and Research Papers.

 

Every year would include some literature analysis and poetry study, but I plan on it hard core in High School.

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You would need to add in a grammar/mechanics program and a spelling program.

 

For my oldest we've used MCT Island alongside Fable and Narrative I. Apples and Pears is our spelling program.

 

Next year my oldest will continue with W&R, but I'm going to add English Lessons Through Literature Level 5 for the grammar and mechanics part. My daughter and I both love MCT Language Arts, but I can't justify spending that much on one part of LA. I got a good deal on a used set of Island or we wouldn't have used it either. We will continue with Apples and Pears spelling.

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WWE and CAP W&R are both full programs, and if streamlining is your goal I wouldn't suggest doing two entire writing curricula. 

For efficiency, I would chose one grammar, one writing and one spelling. Next year we're planning on doing CAP W&R, FLL, and continuing with Sequential Spelling. 

 

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We tried doing both WWE (to finish 2) and CAP Fable, but it was too redundant and too much, so we dropped WWE.  If your child is already good at narrating and summarizing, doing both is overkill.  If DC still needs more narrating and summarizing practice, then maybe I would recommend one day a week of WWE (in which I would only dot the narrating/summarizing portions).  My daughter didn't need the extra practice, though she was sad to let WWE go because she liked hearing the story segments.

 

We use AAS and FLL/MCT for grammar.

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It almost seems like W&R has just been a big distraction, for me, from The Complete Writer series. I mean, WWE/WWS.TCW, goes all the way up to about 8th grade, and it dovetails beautifully with FLL which goes up to 4th/5th grade, and it's easy to use and very very comprehensive.

 

W&R just doesn't look like enough writing, in the early years, to stand alone unless you were doing copywork and dictation separately, as well as grammar obviously. SO, IMO, if you really want to use W&R, I am thinking you would also use WWE 1 or 2, since it's all narration, and dictation. And then you won't need The Creative Writer at all, later on.

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W&R just doesn't look like enough writing, in the early years, to stand alone unless you were doing copywork and dictation separately, as well as grammar obviously. SO, IMO, if you really want to use W&R, I am thinking you would also use WWE 1 or 2, since it's all narration, and dictation. And then you won't need The Creative Writer at all, later on.

 

I believe you've hit on something here. This is why it worked for us to do both W&R Books 1 & 2 during our first semester of 4th grade this year. There is enough writing if done this way, but it's a different level/kind of writing. Regardless, I'd recommend completing at least Levels 1-3 of WWE, if not also (or partially) Level 4, before beginning W&R, and it would be far more beneficial for the student to be writing completely independently, imo.

 

We are also doing spelling (SWR), grammar (R&S), poetry (Poetry Primer), and finishing WWE 4 during this second half of our 4th grade year.

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Yeah, because what I am saying is, that CAP is really not about the repetition and practice needed to be quick and fluent with one's thoughts and translate those thoughts into spelling, punctuation, and whatever else is involved with making the pencil put the thoughts on the paper. That's what WWE does... And W&R is not really about that. It's more about understanding the types of literature and being able to then compose those on one's own, and mostly it's fiction. It requires more analysis and then more creativity.

 

There is some overlap.

 

I think it depends on what your child needs and what you are doing in other subjects.

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Yeah, because what I am saying is, that CAP is really not about the repetition and practice needed to be quick and fluent with one's thoughts and translate those thoughts into spelling, punctuation, and whatever else is involved with making the pencil put the thoughts on the paper. That's what WWE does... And W&R is not really about that. It's more about understanding the types of literature and being able to then compose those on one's own, and mostly it's fiction. It requires more analysis and then more creativity.

 

There is some overlap.

 

I think it depends on what your child needs and what you are doing in other subjects.

 

 

Maybe this would pair well with Apples & Pears spelling?  I have dropped WWE in favor of A&P b/c we've needed it for spelling and it's a lot of writing (and it hits dictation pretty well).

 

My 11yo is my dyslexic, reluctant writer.  I tried CC Fables with him at the beginning of the year and it flopped. The outlining of the story really did him in, and I gave it up. W&R looks less persnickity.  I do think he'd do well with the progym as he's a bright thinker and narrator.

 

I wonder what grammar would fit well with A&P, W&R?

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Maybe this would pair well with Apples & Pears spelling?  I have dropped WWE in favor of A&P b/c we've needed it for spelling and it's a lot of writing (and it hits dictation pretty well).

 

My 11yo is my dyslexic, reluctant writer.  I tried CC Fables with him at the beginning of the year and it flopped. The outlining of the story really did him in, and I gave it up. W&R looks less persnickity.  I do think he'd do well with the progym as he's a bright thinker and narrator.

 

I wonder what grammar would fit well with A&P, W&R?

 

Anything, really.  MCT's approach, where you front-load grammar with Grammar Island then reinforce it throughout the year with practice would work well - you could do GI first and then start the W&R books.  The copia exercises are similar to what you see in the Killgallon books, too.  Any of the CM-type programs like PLL or ILL or their spinoffs would be quite compatible.  In the first book it's really just nouns, verbs, and adjectives that W&R focuses on in the copia exercises, and I imagine any grammar program would have that covered by 3rd grade.

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WWE and CAP W&R are both full programs, and if streamlining is your goal I wouldn't suggest doing two entire writing curricula. 

 

For efficiency, I would chose one grammar, one writing and one spelling. Next year we're planning on doing CAP W&R, FLL, and continuing with Sequential Spelling. 

 

 

 

:iagree:

 

Each one is sufficient on its own. I am currently using Fable (We've just started lesson 2) with a 5th grade boy for summer writing. I do intend to do Narrative 1 and 2 with him next year. Since he is older, and has done some "schooly" type narrative essays and reports, we can cover this in a couple of days a week. This leaves some time for me to teach him some beginning logic stage writing skills. 

 

But if ALL we did was CAP W&R? I would still consider that enough for the next three years if we kept it up consistently (We school year-round, so three books a year). 

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Yeah, because what I am saying is, that CAP is really not about the repetition and practice needed to be quick and fluent with one's thoughts and translate those thoughts into spelling, punctuation, and whatever else is involved with making the pencil put the thoughts on the paper. That's what WWE does... And W&R is not really about that. It's more about understanding the types of literature and being able to then compose those on one's own, and mostly it's fiction. It requires more analysis and then more creativity.

 

There is some overlap.

 

I think it depends on what your child needs and what you are doing in other subjects.

 

I think you are absolutely right - it depends on what your kid needs.  WWE is all about the repetition of basic skills, years of it, which is exactly right for some writers, and drives others into the nuthouse.  W&R has simpler stories and passages, but you are asked to do a lot more with them, including quite a lot of analytic and creative writing.  And it does include basic introductory literary analysis and terms - plot, protagonist and antagonist, etc.

 

I think the program's strength is its variety and depth - it has a little bit of everything I've wanted to incorporate from various programs over the years, but this way I get it all in one book rather than having to buy and use bits and pieces of 4 or 5 different programs.  My kid really needs variety to stay engaged.  The challenge will be to make sure she gets enough practice and I'm not trying to move her along too quickly.  We've done half of Fable in 2nd grade, and that's been fine, but I don't want to start Narrative 2 till 4th grade, it definitely takes a big step forward in asking for analysis (basic outlining) and creativity.  So I'll have plenty of time in 3rd to incorporate other skills - WWE, Killgallon, grammar, spelling, etc.  But I won't try and do every single lesson in WWE, I don't think my child needs it and I think it would be overkill to try and do both in their entirety.

 

I guess what W&R has provided for me is a complete spine that has everything I want in a writing program - but I will supplement some skills with extra practice.  Whereas WWE was very good and thorough at what it covered, but it left out a lot of the things I wanted to include - amplification, summary vs. narration, copia, paralell writings & retelling, creative writing, etc.

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We used WR Bk 1 and 2 last year w/ LoE Essentials for spelling and mechanics and MCT for grammar/vocab/poetry. Not to mention lots of great books for literature. 

 

As to whether or not WR is enough on its own, I've been thinking about this. I used it with WWE3 last year and we did about 2/3 of it (the first 1/3 completely and then the rest we skipped the dictation). We enjoyed it fairly well but I wondered at times if we were doing too much. I'm not sure the plan next year. I know the demands of WR will increase, the number of lessons will stay the same but the output expected will be greater so adding more could be overkill. I think I'll just go through it at a good pace and if we finish early then I'll look at what to add, or it could be that we finish Bk3 and I think we need to work on some skills more before tackling Bk4. 

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I think you are absolutely right - it depends on what your kid needs.  WWE is all about the repetition of basic skills, years of it, which is exactly right for some writers, and drives others into the nuthouse.  W&R has simpler stories and passages, but you are asked to do a lot more with them, including quite a lot of analytic and creative writing.  And it does include basic introductory literary analysis and terms - plot, protagonist and antagonist, etc.

 

I think the program's strength is its variety and depth - it has a little bit of everything I've wanted to incorporate from various programs over the years, but this way I get it all in one book rather than having to buy and use bits and pieces of 4 or 5 different programs.  My kid really needs variety to stay engaged.  The challenge will be to make sure she gets enough practice and I'm not trying to move her along too quickly.  We've done half of Fable in 2nd grade, and that's been fine, but I don't want to start Narrative 2 till 4th grade, it definitely takes a big step forward in asking for analysis (basic outlining) and creativity.  So I'll have plenty of time in 3rd to incorporate other skills - WWE, Killgallon, grammar, spelling, etc.  But I won't try and do every single lesson in WWE, I don't think my child needs it and I think it would be overkill to try and do both in their entirety.

 

I guess what W&R has provided for me is a complete spine that has everything I want in a writing program - but I will supplement some skills with extra practice.  Whereas WWE was very good and thorough at what it covered, but it left out a lot of the things I wanted to include - amplification, summary vs. narration, copia, paralell writings & retelling, creative writing, etc.

 Well and some kids might need it, nuthouse or not. My dd thinks she wants to do tons of and tons of creative writing, but she doesn't always present her ideas logically and in order. Then, she seems to struggle so much with spelling while she is writing.  WWE gives her a chance to learn to just get thoughts, spelling, and punctuation in order, on paper, properly without having to also be creative...while exposing her to excellent literature.  WWE is awesome.

 

But...it's repetitious and at times, that can be boring.  

 

Which is why I really disagree that they should't be combined....I haven't done it yet, but there are several people here who did and had some measure of success.  It might be a bit of overkill...but nothing seems to be ideal in life.

 

I think if you are using W&R alongside a grammar that includes a lot of copywork and dictation, and also a spelling that includes a lot of physical writing...then you wouldn't need WWE.  ??

 

Just thinking aloud because we are in the same boat.

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Yep, I'm having the same thoughts.  I actually am combining (if I wasn't clear above)  ;) but I won't try and do a whole level of WWE in the same year as two W&R books - We will have done all of WWE2 plus 1/2 of Fable in 2nd, and I expect we'll do the other half of Fable plus Narrative 1 plus 1/2 of WWE3 in 3rd, and then the other half of WWE3 in 4th beside Narrative 2.  And I'm not planning any farther ahead than that! I think it's premature, given that the other W&R books don't exist yet, and my kid's abilities will change, so I don't know what she'll be ready for even this time next year!

 

But I am looking for an alternative path to using WWS, and I do hope that W&R provides that.  Hope springs eternal!

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Yep, I'm having the same thoughts.  I actually am combining (if I wasn't clear above)  ;) but I won't try and do a whole level of WWE in the same year as two W&R books - We will have done all of WWE2 plus 1/2 of Fable in 2nd, and I expect we'll do the other half of Fable plus Narrative 1 plus 1/2 of WWE3 in 3rd, and then the other half of WWE3 in 4th beside Narrative 2.  And I'm not planning any farther ahead than that! I think it's premature, given that the other W&R books don't exist yet, and my kid's abilities will change, so I don't know what she'll be ready for even this time next year!

 

But I am looking for an alternative path to using WWS, and I do hope that W&R provides that.  Hope springs eternal!

 

I am trying to combine them and am wondering how you are accomplishing this. Are you alternating programs each week?

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Not exactly - we have  a more "power to the people" model going.   :lol: Basically, whenever we finish a Fable lesson, I ask dd if she wants to do the next Fable lesson, or take a break and do some WWE.  I also throw in WWE lessons at random times - like, if we've finished a Fable lesson on a Wednesday and I don't want to start the next one till Monday for whatever reason, we'll do a few days of WWE.  

 

This fits with our rather flexible, relaxed approach to curriculum:  Writing happens every day, but I'm pretty flexible about how it happens - depending on mood, how much sleep someone got the night before, general energy level or what else is going on, I'll adjust lessons accordingly.  WWE is more get 'er done practice, so it's good for those lower-energy days, whereas the more creative and analytical exercises in W&R are more demanding of attention and focus.  I don't look at curricula as something that has to be done rigidly according to a specific schedule, KWIM?  

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I am trying to combine them and am wondering how you are accomplishing this. Are you alternating programs each week?

I combined WWE3 w/ WR Bk 1 and 2 last year. At first we did alternating weeks, then we would do 1 day of WWE and 3 of WR and lastly we just did all of WR and spent our last weeks doing the rest of WWE.

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Maybe this would pair well with Apples & Pears spelling?  I have dropped WWE in favor of A&P b/c we've needed it for spelling and it's a lot of writing (and it hits dictation pretty well).

 

My 11yo is my dyslexic, reluctant writer.  I tried CC Fables with him at the beginning of the year and it flopped. The outlining of the story really did him in, and I gave it up. W&R looks less persnickity.  I do think he'd do well with the progym as he's a bright thinker and narrator.

 

I wonder what grammar would fit well with A&P, W&R?

 

We are using A & P and W&R as well. I used MCT Island last year when we started W&R. This year I am using English Lessons Through Literature, because I just can't afford MCT. My dd10 LOVES MCT Language Arts though, so I might try to save up and get it for her next year.

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Classical Writing Aesop integrates writing with grammar, spelling & vocabulary.  I haven't used it, but am looking to next year because DD has trouble with non-fiction writing.  I have heard it is more teacher intensive than CAP, but at least you would not need a separate grammar program.

 

http://classicalwriting.com/Aesop.htm

 

 

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Fable is only a semester long book, if you do a chapter each week.

 

We used AAS and FLL this year for third grade. We did half of WWE 3, then Fable.

 

Next year we will finish WWE3 and then do the next W&R book. I like the variety in the W&R books, but WWE is very good for my dd too. Summary type narration are hard for her and the consistent practice in WWE forces her to organize her thoughts and to be concise. The dictations in WWE 3 are much more challenging than those in Fable.

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Our 3rd grade plan is to use W&R along with FLL3 and SpellWellB/Bb.  We will use WWE3 teacher's text to write across the curriculum, but not the workbook.  I guess it will be like an extension of their science and history instead of only their composition curriculum.  I have looked at LLTL, but I'm just not completely sold on it.

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 Well and some kids might need it, nuthouse or not. My dd thinks she wants to do tons of and tons of creative writing, but she doesn't always present her ideas logically and in order. Then, she seems to struggle so much with spelling while she is writing.  WWE gives her a chance to learn to just get thoughts, spelling, and punctuation in order, on paper, properly without having to also be creative...while exposing her to excellent literature.  WWE is awesome.

 

But...it's repetitious and at times, that can be boring.  

 

Which is why I really disagree that they should't be combined....I haven't done it yet, but there are several people here who did and had some measure of success.  It might be a bit of overkill...but nothing seems to be ideal in life.

 

I think if you are using W&R alongside a grammar that includes a lot of copywork and dictation, and also a spelling that includes a lot of physical writing...then you wouldn't need WWE.  ??

 

Just thinking aloud because we are in the same boat.

 

I'd consider us to be a part of the crowd who have had success with somewhat combining both WWE and W&R. You mentioned in a previous post that there is some overlap, and I agree, which (imo) contributes to why I believe they complement each other so well without necessarily being overkill. That being said, I do also believe there's a fine line when transitioning from one skill/program to the other and/or incorporating the two. Obviously, it depends upon the child's needs and wants, though the former should be the priority in driving motivation, as well as what they would just plain benefit from, but I think there is the alluring potential to move on too quickly from WWE and what it offers/provides—which you so eloquently elaborated in a previous post—to the more appealing W&R program. 

 

 

I think if you are using W&R alongside a grammar that includes a lot of copywork and dictation, and also a spelling that includes a lot of physical writing...then you wouldn't need WWE.  ??

 

Just thinking aloud because we are in the same boat.

 

It seems to me that this comes down to the student practicing the physical skill of writing vs. the actual art of writing. A lot of physical writing across subjects isn't necessarily going to produce quality writing. A spelling program based on phonetics that includes dictation, etc. (such as AAS, LOE, SWR, WRTR) and a solid grammar program that includes usage, mechanics, copywork, etc. (such as FLL, R&S, and Shurley) are foundational but still separate from exercising proficiency in writing.

 

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  • 6 months later...

Not exactly - we have  a more "power to the people" model going.   :lol: Basically, whenever we finish a Fable lesson, I ask dd if she wants to do the next Fable lesson, or take a break and do some WWE.  I also throw in WWE lessons at random times - like, if we've finished a Fable lesson on a Wednesday and I don't want to start the next one till Monday for whatever reason, we'll do a few days of WWE.  

 

This fits with our rather flexible, relaxed approach to curriculum:  Writing happens every day, but I'm pretty flexible about how it happens - depending on mood, how much sleep someone got the night before, general energy level or what else is going on, I'll adjust lessons accordingly.  WWE is more get 'er done practice, so it's good for those lower-energy days, whereas the more creative and analytical exercises in W&R are more demanding of attention and focus.  I don't look at curricula as something that has to be done rigidly according to a specific schedule, KWIM?  

 

This is how I'm using WWE (summaries only at this point, WWE3).

 

As you go in Writing and Rhetoric there is increased writing and creative demands. Sometimes we need a break, and WWE is a easy writing day/break, though probably too easy for mine. I'm not sure we're getting anything out of it at this point.

 

Writing with Ease didn't help mine organize their thoughts to write narratives. The Most Wonderful Writing Lessons Ever was fantastic for that, though. It added to the quality of writing in our CAP narrative work.

 

OP, we use spelling (Apples and Pears), MCT grammar, and EM Daily Language Review (5 minute lessons, focus on mechanics) with CAP. I do use Killgallon too.

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We combine WWE and W+R.  Some weeks I do WWE 4 days and W+R for two, other days I do WWE for 2 and W+R for four.  Usually, it's W+R for four because it seems "meatier".

I'm trying to figure out how to combine WWE or ELTL with W&R, MCT, Killgallon, and TC. Overkill?

 

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You would need to add in a grammar/mechanics program and a spelling program.

 

For my oldest we've used MCT Island alongside Fable and Narrative I. Apples and Pears is our spelling program.

Last year we used Fable with Sequential Spelling and MCT island. This year we are using Narrative with Apples and Pears Spelling and IEW Fix It for grammar and mechanics. Both combos seem good so far.
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I decided to just use WWE2 as scheduled (or at least try it out that way this week). (so 4 days) and then have the W&R lessons spread out more over the week for 5 days, if we need to longer we will... I also plan to use both book 1 and 2 for the year but doing them for 2 weeks then have a week off, then back to W&R for two weeks, then a week off. I got the idea from another thread, where a poster posted a schedule like this with having a few chapters doubled up only. the rest W&R weeks cover one lesson a week. 

 

I will post the schedule bellow, but it has our weeks for the rest of the year and the weeks for our summer plan (9weeks) in place instead of weeks 1-36. 

 

An alternate plan i had was just work with W&R as it works out doing a little a day of a lesson or set a timer, or me to see only. 

 

We are also using Hake Grammar 4 still... so my guess is part of MCT added in wouldn't be too much...but everything else you could fit in but just go slower with the W&R lessons, or only do one or two programs at a time... if you are having trouble just use a timer and see how much physical writing a day, or in a row, or how much LA is a good amount for your child. Not doing too much and stopping before child tires.. or whenever you think a good stopping place is for his or her workload... just ideas...

 

Fable:

12) Lesson 1

13) Lesson 2

14) off - Killgallon

15) Lesson 3

16) Lesson 4

17) off - Killgallon

18) Lesson 5

19) Lesson 6 

20) off - Killgallon

21) Lesson 7

22) Lesson 8 and 9

23) off - Killgallon

24) Lesson 10

25) Lesson 11

26) off - Killgallon

27) Lesson 12

28) Lesson 13

29) off - Killgallon

30) Lesson 14

 

Narrative 1:

31) Lesson 1 and 2

32) off - Killgallon

33) Lesson 3

34) Lesson 4

35) off - Killgallon

36) Lesson 5

1) Lesson 6

2) off - Killgallon

3) Lesson 7

4) Lesson 8

5) off - Killgallon

6) Lesson 9

7) off - Killgallon

8)Lesson 10

9) off - Killgallon

 

ETA: This was adapted from plan taken from this thread on page 5, there are also tips and tabs on how to put together a notebook to make the student book reusable. http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/482282-new-writing-program-from-cap/page-5

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The one I have in the line up is Sentence Composing for Elementary, then whenever there is space, probably next year, I will do Story Grammar for Elementary.

 

After that I plan to use Paragraph Composing for Elementary. We may or may not continue with the other books for middle school... For now, it is just Sentence composing.

 

The order was from the notes i took on reading from this thread over the best order. I chose the Elementary due to the books used. 

 

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