Remedial spelling that is NOT O-G based?

[ondreeuh]

We have tried over the years:
All Sbout Spelling
Sequential Spelling
Apples and Pears
Spelling Plus word lists with daily testing
Saxon Phonics Intervention
REWARDS secondary
And now Logic of English

The O-G ones that focus on rules, give tables of most-common usage, etc. are just not working. That is not, and never has been, the way my child learns. He needs practice, word play, spelling out loud, writing it on the white board, etc. He really just needs to memorize the most frequently used words. Rules can help explain why, but I can't just teach him rules and expect him to puzzle out the spelling.

The problem is that the process of overteaching the words is difficult to implement. When I say open and go, I mean I need to be able to start going the moment I get a chance and I need it to be efficient. Workbooks are saving our homeschool. That is just the reality of my life with a younger kid who is exceptionally needy.

Is there any workbook that might fit the bill? I was thinking of trying out Evan-Moor's Building Spelling Skills, which works great for my younger kid. I like that it includes dictation sentences NOT from a separate book (like SP).

Daily tests (Sequential Spelling and Spelling Plus the way I used it) were unnecessarily anxiety provoking. I think IEW's spelling would probably be the same way. Something that focuses more on practicing than testing would be great. I might go back to Apples and Pears. We got partway through C before giving up, but that was two years ago.

I thought LOE would be great, but the pacing is not working for us. There are too many parts to each lesson, and we're not even getting to the spelling words until the 3rd or 4th day. Sorry, I can't spend an hour on spelling like she recommends. I am also frustrated with LOE because some of the ways she marks things are completely contradictory to the other programs like Saxon and Rewards. Like how she doesn't teach r-controlled vowels as a blend, but as a separate vowel and consonant sound. And how in the beginning of Essentials she teaches that the a at the end of a word (like sofa) is broad. It's a schwa!

[sbgrace]

Your list has some rule/O-G based, but also the non O-G based!

 

And....I was going to suggest Apples and Pears. I see it's on your list though.  It's been great for mine who just couldn't internalize/visualize the spelling of words even though he knew all the rules and phonograms. I don't know what went wrong with that one for you, but there are only 3 rules to remember. And they are consistent and useful! It's relatively quick teaching for me too. We do 1/2 a lesson a day.

[ondreeuh]

The problem we had with A&P is that my son could only handle 1-2 pages a day. At that rate, he was going too slowly for the reinforcement to build - essentially the spiral was too long. By the time we got to the dictation tests, he absolutely could not do them. He has come a long way since then, just from reading so much more and being more mature. I found my levels C & D, and I will restart C in the morning. Wish me luck!

[FairProspects]

Abra-Vocabra?

[sixpence1978]

My DD has dysgraphia and can only handle 1 page of A&P a day.  So a "level" takes us 3 days.  It's still working at that pace for us.  Occasionally she'll have a few words that give her problems and those are the ones that I will have her rewrite 3x each day until it sticks.  We usually do spelling early in the morning, so any reinforcement we do in the afternoon.

[ondreeuh]

We did review A today. His working memory is low, and during the spelling dictation he could only handle 2 letters at a time. His struggles probably stem from a brain injury r/t surgeries in infancy, so it is more than just a "learning difference." I'm optimistic, but I see that it is going to be very hard for him to learn when he cannot intuit or generalize patterns as quickly as they expect. I might have to chop up a bunch of index cards and just make my own flash cards.

[geodob]

You wrote that he had brain injury/ surgery in infancy.

Where perhaps I could ask what brain region was effected?

As from what you described, I wonder if it was within his left parietal lobe?

Which contains the left angular gyrus.

This is what connects the written word, with the sound of a word.

Though it is also used in math, where it is used to verbally think through a math calculation.

Where as well, it is used for procedural thinking.

 

So I wonder if this was the brain region effected?

[ondreeuh]

I am just making an educated guess. He was on bypass twice in his first 4 months for heart surgeries. Tiny particulate from the pump can enter the bloodstream and could potentially cause tiny strokes. He had an MRI at 2 that was clear, but I'm not sure it would have picked up a small, old bleed. They were mostly looking for a malformation. The MRI was ordered because of his language delays and extreme ADHD behavior, long before we were concerned about spelling. His psychoeducational assessments have all shown his delays are limited to language, but I also see he has difficulty with motor planning (swimming, jumping jacks) and remembering the steps in tasks like preparing food, washing his face, etc. It takes a lot more repetition before he remembers the sequence. Word problems in math are tough but getting better; each day we do one page of practice problems and one page of problem solving, and he is much more independent than he was at the beginning of the year. Overall, math is a relative strength. Writing is a BEAR because even with a checklist he forgets to check and correct capitalization, punctuation, quotations, etc. It's not enough to teach it to him, he really struggles to USE it.

[Shay]

I am planning to use SRA's Spelling Through Morphographs with my son next year (will be 12). It is one workbook with 140 lessons, with a mastery test being the lesson every 20 lessons. I bought it used off eBay, otherwise I would not have been able to afford it. If I didn't have that, I would do Apples & Pears. They are both morphograph based spelling programs, but I believe Spelling thru Morphographs (I'll call it StM) moves faster. This fits our bill because my son is probably very, very mildly dyslexic and/or ADHD and has received little to no comprehensive spelling instruction in the PS (coming home for 6th grade). So, I'm going to try a one year remediation, but of course slowing down or ditching altogether if needed.

 

I have never actually used this, so my posting should be taken with that in mind. I am a teacher of special needs students (mostly dyslexic) and am a big believer in SRA programs. StM is meant to be a remedial spelling program you can complete in one year, but you can certainly spread it out. Although it is laid out similarly to A&P, there are no sentence dictation so that I see (this may be either a plus or minus, depending on your situation).

 

HTH!

[VinNY]

My dtr is 12 and we are still on Apples and Pears B (lesson 53). "A" took us 2 years with lots of redos because she didn't pass the level. This year has been going more smoothly but depending on the lesson I break it up over two days. I am looking forward to C but won't be in a hurry to complete it. I hope to finish the series with her passing the levels by mid high school:)

[freesia]

The problem we had with A&P is that my son could only handle 1-2 pages a day. At that rate, he was going too slowly for the reinforcement to build - essentially the spiral was too long. By the time we got to the dictation tests, he absolutely could not do them. He has come a long way since then, just from reading so much more and being more mature. I found my levels C & D, and I will restart C in the morning. Wish me luck!

One thing I started doing with Apples and Pears is that when my kids miss a word, I have them close their eyes and spell it forward and backward. Spelling Challenged kids usually have trouble holding words in their head. This taught them to hold the words better. My dd repeated a lot of sections in Apples and Pears--you did have him do that, right?

 

If you start again with it, definitely retest and put him where he tests. The white art erasers work well to erase the workbooks as they have thick pages. Honestly, my dd is doing D this year and it is just this year that I feel she can truly spell. I am beyond thrilled with how she is doing--but she is just one child. My third grader is trecking along in B, making steady progress, but, like dd at that age, it is sometimes 2 steps forward, 3 steps back.

[sbgrace]

One thing I started doing with Apples and Pears is that when my kids miss a word, I have them close their eyes and spell it forward and backward. Spelling Challenged kids usually have trouble holding words in their head. This taught them to hold the words better. My dd repeated a lot of sections in Apples and Pears--you did have him do that, right?

 

If you start again with it, definitely retest and put him where he tests. The white art erasers work well to erase the workbooks as they have thick pages. Honestly, my dd is doing D this year and it is just this year that I feel she can truly spell. I am beyond thrilled with how she is doing--but she is just one child. My third grader is trecking along in B, making steady progress, but, like dd at that age, it is sometimes 2 steps forward, 3 steps back.

 

I do the spelling backwards/forwards thing too. I wonder if I got the idea from you? I know I saw it on here at some point. It has really helped my poor visualizer. We re-do sections if he misses more than allotted amount. But, we also keep a practice list of any lesson's missed words. We practice that list every day. Even when he gets them correct, they stay on the list until we're both confident it's solid. I keep the "retired" words and we check them periodically to make sure he's still ok. 

[freesia]

I do the spelling backwards/forwards thing too. I wonder if I got the idea from you? I know I saw it on here at some point. It has really helped my poor visualizer. We re-do sections if he misses more than allotted amount. But, we also keep a practice list of any lesson's missed words. We practice that list every day. Even when he gets them correct, they stay on the list until we're both confident it's solid. I keep the "retired" words and we check them periodically to make sure he's still ok.

Oh, I forgot! With my dd, I would make file cards of the words she missed the most often and have her do the backwards/forwards ones everyday, too. I should start doing that with ds, come to think of it.

[Guest jbclski]

If you are concerned about auditory discrimination you might try this informal hearing inventory to identify the sounds (if any) that your child is having trouble discriminating.  It is available here for free  -http://www.teacherspayteachers.com/Product/Auditory-Discrimination-Test-1462  .

 

Also I recommend Essentials of Dyselxia assessment and intervention by Mather & Wendling (2012) - a great resource which talks about the neurobiological basis of dyslexia, assessment, instruction in phonological awareness, reading, spelling, fluency, technological applications etc.

[Pen]

You mention games...my son has enjoyed entering spelling words into his Franklin digital dictionary which has games like hangman etc. that it will play with you from a word list.

 

Also sometime he has used Spelling City online games.

 

Could something like Sequential Spelling be used in a way that calls it all just "practice" instead of using the word or idea of "test?"

[SandyKC]

I am just making an educated guess. He was on bypass twice in his first 4 months for heart surgeries. Tiny particulate from the pump can enter the bloodstream and could potentially cause tiny strokes. He had an MRI at 2 that was clear, but I'm not sure it would have picked up a small, old bleed. They were mostly looking for a malformation. The MRI was ordered because of his language delays and extreme ADHD behavior, long before we were concerned about spelling. His psychoeducational assessments have all shown his delays are limited to language, but I also see he has difficulty with motor planning (swimming, jumping jacks) and remembering the steps in tasks like preparing food, washing his face, etc. It takes a lot more repetition before he remembers the sequence. Word problems in math are tough but getting better; each day we do one page of practice problems and one page of problem solving, and he is much more independent than he was at the beginning of the year. Overall, math is a relative strength. Writing is a BEAR because even with a checklist he forgets to check and correct capitalization, punctuation, quotations, etc. It's not enough to teach it to him, he really struggles to USE it.

 

From reading this and everything else, I'm wondering if you need to take a development track that addresses cognitive enhancement and provide some intense experiences for your DS there.  Given your prior mention that his working memory is week and here saying that it takes a lot of repetition, and your son has difficulty remembering the steps, some of the reason "no" spelling program seems to be working may be that the underlying cognitive functions need to be strengthened in order to facilitate learning spelling, punctuation, etc. 

 

Using a high quality cognitive enhancement program daily for 20-30 minutes twice per day--first thing in the morning and last thing before bed--could provide some good advancement in your DS' overall ability to learn, remember, and process what he is being taught.  Check out "How To Defeat Your Child's Dyslexia" (book on Amazon) if you want to know more about addressing underlying cognitive functions, using assistive technology to help learning, and other avenues for getting to the root of your son's learning problems and overcoming them. ;-)

 

[ondreeuh]

From reading this and everything else, I'm wondering if you need to take a development track that addresses cognitive enhancement and provide some intense experiences for your DS there.  Given your prior mention that his working memory is week and here saying that it takes a lot of repetition, and your son has difficulty remembering the steps, some of the reason "no" spelling program seems to be working may be that the underlying cognitive functions need to be strengthened in order to facilitate learning spelling, punctuation, etc. 

 

Using a high quality cognitive enhancement program daily for 20-30 minutes twice per day--first thing in the morning and last thing before bed--could provide some good advancement in your DS' overall ability to learn, remember, and process what he is being taught.  Check out "How To Defeat Your Child's Dyslexia" (book on Amazon) if you want to know more about addressing underlying cognitive functions, using assistive technology to help learning, and other avenues for getting to the root of your son's learning problems and overcoming them. ;-)

 

 

Sandy, I'm sure you mean well, but if you are linking to your own website where you offer products for sale, you need to be more transparent about that in your post. From first glance I assumed that your post was spam, but I saw your post count was decent and I saw the same link was in your signature. Your site looks full of helpful info, but you have a financial interest in people visiting your site, so it seems very close to violating TOS for you to recommend it to me (when I asked for a spelling program). If you had said "I've put together a website with all sorts of ways to help parents educate LD kids at home. I've linked several different programs that address cognitive function - here's the link" then it would have seemed fine, but the way you wrote it sounded like a pure advertisement.

[SandyKC]

I'm sorry it seemed that way.  I'm not offering cognitive enhancement products for sale and virtually all of the cognitive enhancement programs listed are of no benefit to me whatsoever if you click on them. The large majority are "just links."

 

Yes, you did ask for a spelling program, and it would have been logical for me to point you to he spelling page if I was truly trying to "sell" something to solve the direct issue you brought up about spelling because I have lots of resources for spelling.. Although there too.. most everything on the content portion of my website is just resource links. My website is primarily my "brain dump" of programs and ideas I have for helping people so I don't have to retype everything everytime I'm trying to help someone with an issue.

 

In all sincerety-- I was pointing out what I believe can be a foundational issue with the spelling problems for your child based upon what you've shared about none of the programs you've tried to date working. It was sharing what I know about cognitive functioning and how to overcome issues with it.

 

My post was not intended to be a promotional post--TRULY not my intention at all. I sincerely don't see what was like a "pure advertisement" about my post either.. You REALLY took that as "pure spam"?  I truly don't see why because I was giving my sincerest advice. I'm very sorry you took it as an advertisement and I'm wondering if you took it that way because it wasn't what you were expecting as advice. It was by no means meant to be a plug for anything.

 

I've homeschooled my own guys to overcome their LDs. I have a passion to help others..which I've been doing for more than a decade. I have an instructional design background, have read tons of neuropsych evaluation reports for kids, and help parents design programs for their kids.  I've been doing that free of charge all along too.. Just trying to help and not have to retype my recommendations every time I try to help someone out, so yes, I have the resources listed on the page.. I have our personal story there too, and yes, I earn a few pennies per click if someone clicks on one of the ads displayed, but I gain very little from that and that isn't why I sent you there.

 

I will go read the terms of service again though, because I don't want to be in violation of them.. It has been awhile.  My apologies to you. I WAS just trying to help.

 

--Update--Looking at the TOS, if I am selling a product or recommending a specific product which I benefit from financially, that would be a problem.  I can see where you might consider that a close breech, but believe I'm okay because I'm not recommending any specific product that I make any financial benefit from, and the product links for virtually all of the products are not affiliate links.  However, before I send people to future resource pages I probably need to be sure those pages don't have product sales on them.  Thanks for the heads-up.

 

Sandy, I'm sure you mean well, but if you are linking to your own website where you offer products for sale, you need to be more transparent about that in your post. From first glance I assumed that your post was spam, but I saw your post count was decent and I saw the same link was in your signature. Your site looks full of helpful info, but you have a financial interest in people visiting your site, so it seems very close to violating TOS for you to recommend it to me (when I asked for a spelling program). If you had said "I've put together a website with all sorts of ways to help parents educate LD kids at home. I've linked several different programs that address cognitive function - here's the link" then it would have seemed fine, but the way you wrote it sounded like a pure advertisement.

 

[ondreeuh]

I do appreciate you sharing your hard work. I wrote my post quickly, but my main points were to 1) help you keep from violating TOS, and 2) help you to not come across as a shill to people who read you recommendations and assume (like I first did) that you are trolling the boards looking for people to pitch your products. Your actual website is definitely worth sharing, but I assumed it was an advertisement and only clicked on it to verify before I reported it as spam. I was honestly surprised to see so much free info, and kept looking for a catch. All I saw was your book, though. Your site does look very commercial.

 

If you read enough spam on these boards, they often have a similar style and include an embedded link that doesn't clearly say where it's going, like your post. It raised the red flag big time for me.

[Pen]

Another thought, might it make sense to use a program meant for adults instead of children? I'm not sure what, but maybe something like Barrons EZ Spelling?

 

Spelling is not my son's strong point either, and in our case I decided to just largely drop it for a while and then to come back to it later.

 

I started with printing out a list of most common words and then he entered a few every so often into his Franklin and played games with them and then sometimes  I quizzed him (trying to keep it light, not a TEST)...    He still is "behind" in spelling, but he knows a lot more than he did know, and it does not seem to be a phobia area.  His typing program work has also helped his spelling.  Often when I'm surprised that he knows how to spell a word it turns out is was in the typing.

[SandyKC]

I truly do not know what about my post makes me "come across as a shill to people who read you recommendations." No one else has ever indicated that to me. Even when I reread, I don't understand where that perception comes from given what I wrote.  I really would like to understand. 

I write like I talk -- I'm wondering if your mindset might be quite different from mine since my advice makes you think it's spammy.  Was it just the link that made it seem spammy?

 

I link that way simply because it's a resource page about the topic and people can click on it if they want to know more about it... To me, it's like a "definition" link you see on some pages.  For example, I thought your child could benefit from cognitive enhancement, but a lot of people don't even know what that is.  So I just made a link for the term so readers can go to the page of explanation and resource listings if they want to.  Didn't realize at all that it's a "spammy" way to link because it leads directly to the topic I was talking about--never thought there was a need to explain the link.

 

Question: Perhaps does my site look very commercial because it's "professional" versus "personal" (not a "personal" blog)?  Its information and resources, and the google ads to help pay for the site's hosting.  Like you say, the only products I have are my books.

 

Yep.. No "catch" and I really was taken aback by your response.. Still baffles me to a degree because I've never had anyone react that way before. :-(

 

I do appreciate you sharing your hard work. I wrote my post quickly, but my main points were to 1) help you keep from violating TOS, and 2) help you to not come across as a shill to people who read you recommendations and assume (like I first did) that you are trolling the boards looking for people to pitch your products. Your actual website is definitely worth sharing, but I assumed it was an advertisement and only clicked on it to verify before I reported it as spam. I was honestly surprised to see so much free info, and kept looking for a catch. All I saw was your book, though. Your site does look very commercial.

If you read enough spam on these boards, they often have a similar style and include an embedded link that doesn't clearly say where it's going, like your post. It raised the red flag big time for me.

 

[Pen]

Ondreeuh,

In addition to considering cognitive enhancement programs (which might be helpful), you also might consider nutritional therapies. For my son, nutritional and vitamin approaches have made a big difference in how he functions -- which affects everything really, spelling included.  He was at a Waldorf school which had a lot of exercises similar to Brain Gym and other midline crossing things, etc. (that is, similar to some of the cognitive enhancing type programs), as well as things like learning to memorize  forward and backward, for my son, anyway, these things did not seem to be especially helpful (I think not since I took him out with no academic progress being made at the school--maybe it did do something subtle that then added in to what we did for homeschool). But when we do find a right curriculum for him I do see major progress over time, and when he does have right nutrition (organic foods, almost no sugar even if organic, lots of fruits and vegetables and high quality proteins) and supplements (under the category of "orthomolecular medicine") for him I can see differences often in just hours or even minutes in some ways, but also a long term progress over time.

[Pen]

Also, what about the DVD version of Sequential Spelling, since part of the issue seems to be your time and energy?

 

Also, as my son is reading more and more it does, bit by bit, seem to be making a difference in his spelling--such as today he amazed me by spelling license correctly, getting it by a sense of what "looked right" apparently.

[PeterPan]

Ondreeuh, I haven't dealt with what you're dealing with, so this is all just thinking, freely admitted.  You know (or posit) there's brain damage, and in general the brain can develop new wiring when you find ways to work around it.  I think that's what geodob was getting at, that if you found the pattern to what part of the brain is affected, then you could find other parts of the brain to engage to go at the same content.  So geodob was saying that if you know the part of his brain that is affected is the part that connects sound and language, then  you might go through the vision part of the brain or another part, kwim?  A neuropsychologist is the one who would help you sort that out.  Do you know what kind of psych did your testing?  Maybe the part of the brain affected is in your write-up?  If you go to a neuropsych, that should be in there, because that's what they do, determining what parts of the brain are involved.

 

So to that end, my suggestion was going to be trying other modalities to go in through other parts of the brain that might not be affected and to get fresh evals for more perspective if you haven't had them in a few years.  At some point it seems to me you've got some serious brain injury and that you need that documented so you can use accommodations, get that paper trail going, and move on to working on his strengths.  Is this a skill that's going to come for him, or in reality are these things that should be accommodated for and maybe you should move on and start pursuing things that ARE going to be lifelong strengths for him?  That's a really hard balance, and maybe you aren't quite there yet.  It might be time to start edging that way or getting advice on when you know it's time for that.

 

:grouphug: 

 

PS.  Phonetic Zoo is totally auditory and has a money back guarantee from IEW.  If auditory is a good channel for him, it might be one to consider.  You might also try putting his words to practice on Quizlet.  You can do quiz let for free either on your computer or as an app.  It includes multiple games and ways to use it.  He might enjoy the raining letters game.  There's also a way to configure it to read the words out loud.  Don't know if you could get that to work for you (with it reading it, him spelling aloud, then having it show the word).  Just play around with it I guess.

 

PPS.  If you found a really good place doing PACE cognitive therapy, they could work on that working memory and try to enhance what he does have.  Might be something to consider.  Our VT place does it, and the therapist is just exceptionally knowledgeable.  If you found a gem like that, someone who does cognitive therapy who really gets how the brain works, they might be able to help.  

[Pen]

I just got Spelling Power (by Beverly Adams-Gordon? or vice-versa?) and am really impressed. It is too early yet to tell the results, but nearly everything about it seems right.  It is 15 minutes per day, 5000 most frequently used words, but arranged into groups and ease of spelling, rather than, as I had been trying to do on my own, starting with the first most common and working my way along lists generated from computer searches.  It uses visual, kinesthetic, and auditory modes of learning, games and reinforcers as part of the program.  There is a good bit to read as information for the parent/teacher, but it was interesting.  There is also a quick start section so that one could get started even without doing the reading of the TM, but I found the TM extremely helpful. It had some advice like not to start a child at too low a level which mistake I would have made had I not read that.

 

So far the tweakings I've had to do have been:

1) to put words like rank and rang into the long /A/ group--they are in with short /a/, but we do not say them that way.

2) And since my ds place part way through the program, I am adding back in some groups from lower levels that do not look like they would be covered at the upper levels, since I am not sure he knows them. That is, I am not starting at a low level just because I think he has some gaps, but I am trying to fill in the gaps.

 

I got a used 3rd edition and do not know how it relates to the current 4th edition. I did not get the DVD part, nor the activities cards part since I didn't think I needed that, but they might fit what you say your son needs to have the DVD, the games activities and so on.

 

 

[Pen]

PS Spelling Power has daily tests-- but I think you could just call them checks of what he already knows so that it does not need to be practiced, and practice sessions of what he does not know, and blank out the word test when you copy the blackline masters if needed to make it less anxiety provoking.  However, unlike something like Seqential Spelling DVD, you would have to be involved for some or all of the daily 15 minutes...at least for the first 5, and until he learned the system of learning, also for the next part daily, and for the dictionary skills part and any games that he cannot do independently or with another child.

[khall]

Have you looked at Spelling You See? It's new this year, put out by the same company that publishes MUS. DD11 is making some gains with it after making zero progress with AAS, Apples & Pears, and Sequential Spelling. It's a bit pricey though.